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Telltale Games Shutting Down

Kadayi

Banned
Kadayi Kadayi - not everyone will share those values, but if that particular value set is being imposed top-down (eg via the recruitment process) it does tend to drive out anyone not fitting that particular culture (I remember at one place I worked, they brought in a 'change management consultant' who spent a day with us discussing the 'change curve' which looked an awful lot like the grief thing - and asking us what kind of animals we thought we were most like - a bunch of us said fuck this and left because we knew that a lot of weird touchy feely shit was coming - best decision any of us ever made as we all went on to much bigger better things). So while not everyone there will align to those values, and many will be there simply because they have bills to pay so they have to be seen to support those values, one can reasonably argue that the values of the company as a whole are likely expressed reasonably well by those tweets.

Regardless I still don't see it as a reason to cheer about a developer going to the wall.
 
Not surprised that people only look at the outer layer of things and it gets liked by others with similar views.

As if that completely neglects the amount of effort these folks pushed. Nah, who cares they were in permanent 100 hours a week mode earning a little over 4k a month.

I am actually surprised they managed to tweet still though. That being said, it may very well be that these folks weren't really thinking straight when tweeting it - especially if they do work 100 hours a week shifts. Ideally, you would want to investigate each and every single one of those embedded tweets to find the origins of these.

All that does say though to me is that too many people still believe Twitter is a private outlet when its not.

Really though, i feel that tweet (and you picking up on it) is a little too much in ''Looking for negatives'' territory just so one can hold no remorse to Telltale and say fuck the company as a whole, when you are referring to individual members and you can't verify if the majority of the 250 employees share these sentiments (Most likely not).

Thus, i feel this tweet is too much fishing for negativity. And as always, if you dig everywhere, you will bound to find something that you can use to say fuck em. I don't think doing that is done in good faith, tbh.


Gross assumption on your end. You would not know how the TTool is in practice, considering that only at the end Telltale managed to upgrade the tech again speaks out loud that they were far too busy on creating content, to the point where writing and even animation quality was sub-par. Management so often wanted last-minute changes that it was not only terrible for the writers onboard, but even more so for the animators, because animating/creating a scene takes a lot more time than writing a script in general.

They needed this many people to keep up with the amount of content they had to produce - over multiple series, even.
Every firm has assholes, just because some people act out you shouldn't assume everyone else does. I mean realistically does everyone you work with align with your values?
I get where you guys are coming from, but if the genders were reversed and you had men in the industry trying to discourage women from applying to their company, they would be rightfully flayed for not only such an ignorant opinion, but also get told by PR to stfu or even get fired. The reason why firing is okay in this case is because you have employees advocating for discrimination in the workplace, a serious crime.

However in this situation those tweets were mostly ignored/cheered by their peers and TellTale PR never told them to delete it. Seems like a disgusting double standard to me.
 

jshackles

Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.

iconmaster

Banned
I mean, it sounds like they broke the labor laws and that the employees are due compensation under those protections.

Right. It’s a pretty unusual law – can’t imagine many other states offering something similar – but given the fact of it the case seems hard to lose.
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
In this specific case though, they could have completed their running projects on the old engine and incubation teams could have looked at industry standard engines such as Unity and Unreal for new projects.
That is assuming Telltale had:
  • Time for this (They didnt)
  • Would invest in a team dedicated to research (Everything points that this was not happening for a long time
  • The running projects were never completed. That was the whole problem with Telltale - They were in a constant, 6 day a week, 20 hours a day, over 100 hours a week loop dedicated at the same projects over and over.
I feel its easy to say ''They could have done x'' when in reality, they simply had no time whatsoever for any of that. I'd encourage to read the Verge commentary linked below for some nuance, because the general vibe i am getting is one where people aren't really comprehending how toxic the situation was at Telltale.
Yeah, I can confirm that that often happens, too. Might as well have been the case for Telltale. Shame...
I've sence grown VERY wary of CEOs/leads without a technical background - not that former programmers aren't capable of screwups, but usually they are far better at understanding a problem.
That's the thing - This whole stress atmosphere at Telltale which set this off was done by a CEO who was also a programmer, and a director, and a producer, and...

The first layoffs (by a new CEO) were seen as a needed evil, and things did improve if only for briefly. I feel because of the bolded, it is interesting to highlight the Verge commentary once more, which details what happens when a CEO who also is a programmer is going to interfere in everything you do. However, said CEO also coined what is now one of the hallmark recognizing points in TWD - ''xxx will remember that.''
I get where you guys are coming from, but if the genders were reversed and you had men in the industry trying to discourage women from applying to their company, they would be rightfully flayed for not only such an ignorant opinion, but also get told by PR to stfu or even get fired. The reason why firing is okay in this case is because you have employees advocating for discrimination in the workplace, a serious crime.
Again, the views of the few don't speak for the views of many, which is what that tweet is implying, and which you aren't nuancing either. It feels too much like looking for something to get upset over, just so you can proclaim with a moral conscience that its good that TellTale got axed.

And frankly, i find that nonsensical.

As a seperate topic, however, i do agree with you that these tweets should not have said in the public space whilst they were an employee of the company. In this, these people made the same mistake that got Jessica Price fired - using a public website as a private outlet. Even on social media, you are supposed to protect your position. If one really feels like making this commentary, make a second personal account and tweet from there on personal title.

If it was done that way, then it would be considered a personal view, rather than a public, view in name of the company.

However in this situation those tweets were mostly ignored/cheered by their peers and TellTale PR never told them to delete it. Seems like a disgusting double standard to me.
You think a company with 250+ employees being in constant crunch time also has time to play watchdog to their employees in their spare time?
Seeing as said tweets referenced go back to 2017, don't you think its strange it gets brought up now? I mean, were these things previously in the news? Given the content, you would think they were. :goog_unsure:
 

jshackles

Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
Right. It’s a pretty unusual law – can’t imagine many other states offering something similar – but given the fact of it the case seems hard to lose.

I believe this particular law only protects large companies that downsize. Had Telltale closed up shop completely and ceased operations entirely, they wouldn't be subject to this.

As it stands, hopefully something comes of it. With any luck the company actually has money to pay these people, and if they don't then they're in a lot worse shape even than they're letting on.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
That is assuming Telltale had:
  • Time for this (They didnt)
  • Would invest in a team dedicated to research (Everything points that this was not happening for a long time
  • The running projects were never completed. That was the whole problem with Telltale - They were in a constant, 6 day a week, 20 hours a day, over 100 hours a week loop dedicated at the same projects over and over.
  • Unity matured around 2014, Unreal 4's maturity is more recent, but there is / was Unreal 3 as an alternative. They did have plenty time.
  • They haven't but they should have. I am talking about management failures, not foot soldier programmer failures.
  • The running projects were completed, all the time. Of course they started new projects, but each team completed projects regularly and could have made the switch for the next title. Other ongoing projects would of course stay on their current engine and only make the switch when starting up the next game. If the engine they used was so bad (I have never worked with it) to require manual animation fo an object falling down., the swap would have amortised immediately, with the first new project.
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
  • Unity matured around 2014, Unreal 4's maturity is more recent, but there is / was Unreal 3 as an alternative. They did have plenty time.
Don't be dense. You state that they had ''plenty time'', but have you read the Verge summary? Whatever time they had left, was spent on new projects and management (well, the CEO) constantly interfering with their jobs.
  • They haven't but they should have. I am talking about management failures, not foot soldier programmer failures.
:pie_eyeroll: Spoken with a implicit disregard and disrespect for programmers on the job. They aren't foot soldier programmers. They were the guys and gals that made TWD and other titles possible and they were rewarded with shoutouts, 100 hour work weeks, and shitty wages for the amount of time they had to push. Again, you are talking very easy here.
  • The running projects were completed, all the time. of course they started new projects, but each team completed projects regularly and could have made the switch for the next title.
Technically, they were completed, yes. In practice, employees were constantly working on the exact same things, for 100 hours a weeks, day in, day out.
  • Other ongoing projects would of course stay on their current engine and only make the switch when starting up the next game.
You still seem to think that Telltale employees could have just switched over like that was an easy task. Given the background as to what actually happened, it is thus my understanding that you aren't aware of that background and have made the realization of what Telltale's hardships were on a day-by-day basis.

If you were you wouldn't be doubling down on this implication that they could have switched up things easily.
  • If the engine they used was so bad (I have never worked with it) to require manual animation fo an object falling down., the swap would have amortised immediately, with the first new project.
Try doing that with their now ex-CEO interfering with every aspect of the game and hardly would take a different idea for an answer. Again, i am sure most Telltale employees know the issues with their tech, but try doing something about it when you are constantly working on projects and you risk losing your job if you were to complain about this. The Verge summary shows perfectly that the ruling vibe around this was: Put up, or shut up.
 
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Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Don't be dense. You state that they had ''plenty time'', but have you read the Verge summary? Whatever time they had left, was spent on new projects and management (well, the CEO) constantly interfering with their jobs.
You do not seem to understand that I am talking about the studio here. The studio had plenty of time. The head of the studio, making the decisions how to allocate that time could easily have used some of the time to future-proof the company. More than that, it would have been his obligation. He did a miserable job at that and this is why hundreds of people lost their job now.
:pie_eyeroll: Spoken with a implicit disregard and disrespect for programmers on the job. They aren't foot soldier programmers. They were the guys and gals that made TWD and other titles possible and they were rewarded with shoutouts, 100 hour work weeks, and shitty wages for the amount of time they had to push. Again, you are talking very easy here.
You read something here that is only on the receiver side. By food soldier I wanted to express that they weren't the people who could make such a decision. They had to obey what upper management demanded. Which does not excuse upper managament's failure to give sensible orders, though.
Technically, they were completed, yes. In practice, employees were constantly working on the exact same things, for 100 hours a weeks, day in, day out.
I was talking from the company / management perspective or at the very least from a team leader perspective (if they could act as a proper team lead) and from that perspective, the time after a team had completed a title did exist as a time of opportunity.
You still seem to think that Telltale employees could have just switched over like that was an easy task. Given the background as to what actually happened, it is thus my understanding that you aren't aware of that background and have made the realization of what Telltale's hardships were on a day-by-day basis.

If you were you wouldn't be doubling down on this implication that they could have switched up things easily.
Learning to use a new tech is not an easy task, usually, so much is correct, but if the old tech is really ill fit, then it is overall easier to do the change and then complete day-to-day work much more easily. But please, feel free to tell me in how far a change of engine by phasing out usage of the old engine project-by-project would have been a task that could not have been carried out routinely by well-educated computer scientists if given, by upper management, the required amount of time to get used to te new tech.
Try doing that with their now ex-CEO interfering with every aspect of the game and hardly would take a different idea for an answer. Again, i am sure most Telltale employees know the issues with their tech, but try doing something about it when you are constantly working on projects and you risk losing your job if you were to complain about this. The Verge summary shows perfectly that the ruling vibe around this was: Put up, or shut up.
Again, what's so hard to understand about "I am talking about management"? The now ex-CEO acting tough is no excuse for the now ex-CEO being an utter moron in his decisions for the company (and the management directly below him for not fighting back strongly).
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
You do not seem to understand that I am talking about the studio here. The studio had plenty of time. The head of the studio, making the decisions how to allocate that time could easily have used some of the time to future-proof the company. More than that, it would have been his obligation. He did a miserable job at that and this is why hundreds of people lost their job now.
Your first point wasn't talking about management, your second point was though. By plenty time in the first point, you weren't explicitably referring to management. Now that you have clarified this, ill concede.

You read something here that is only on the receiver side. By food soldier I wanted to express that they weren't the people who could make such a decision. They had to obey what upper management demanded. Which does not excuse upper managament's failure to give sensible orders, though.
Why are you now just re-iterating what i just said, when what you said originally on this point isn't what you are saying now?

I was talking from the company / management perspective or at the very least from a team leader perspective (if they could act as a proper team lead) and from that perspective, the time after a team had completed a title did exist as a time of opportunity.
Which is irrelevant as practice showed a different reality. What you are speaking of, is a ''what if'' scenario that will never occur for the inevitable already happened.

What if the employees ditched the CEO from the get-go or else undertook mutiny? Interesting scenario indeed, but in the face of reality where jobs matter more than one's principles (Unfortunately, ill always support those who actually stick up for that) because you have a family to feed or a house that provides your heat, its pretty obvious where employees stood at the time.
Learning to use a new tech is not an easy task, usually, so much is correct, but if the old tech is really ill fit, then it is overall easier to do the change and then complete day-to-day work much more easily.
Which again, simply was not possible in their situation. In your what if scenario, its totally possible though, but i am not talking about that.

But please, feel free to tell me in how far a change of engine by phasing out usage of the old engine project-by-project would have been a task that could not have been carried out routinely by well-educated computer scientists if given, by upper management, the required amount of time to get used to te new tech.
The bolded highlights your what if scenario. Because in reality they didn't get any.

That being said, an overall complete change of engine can set people back a long time, and would presumably take even longer considering the size of the studio at that stage. If you really would want a studio-wide change to new tools, which require re-adjusting, taking courses (Or they would have learned it on the job if the former CEO was still around) you would talk about atleast a year, at minimum, i reckon, just to do that. That's a full year your studio cant do anything but still has all these fulfillments to go for.

By the time TellTale realize the big fuckups in their engine, they would have been too late anyway to make a change. If anything, they should have done it right before they would get succesfull, but obviously this never was on their minds because:
  • Why waste your own tech that you just finished for a new one?
  • Unity was years from being the mature beast that it is now, suffering from an absolutely anemic garbage collecting system which would have tanked performance (along side other things) on every platform they would have released it with.
Again, what's so hard to understand about "I am talking about management"? The now ex-CEO acting tough is no excuse for the now ex-CEO being an utter moron in his decisions for the company (and the management directly below him for not fighting back strongly).
The CEO was part of said management and still interfered anyways with every single aspect of the game, even rewriting tutorial texts if he felt it needed replacement. As CEO, he decided. Again, these are all things you can find in the Verge article, which you can find on this page.
 

Wunray

Member
Just finished the second episode of the final season and man that was an abysmal way ogo out on, agree with ign it was a mediocre episode. It really is such a shame, the series peaked at season 2 (well 1 if you really think about it).
 
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oagboghi2

Member
Hearing all the sniffling on podcasts about how sad this was, and how unexpected, I shake my head. They made decent - not great - very limited games with a low price point, employed way too many people, and this is the kind of thing that happens. Unfortunate but not exactly earth-shattering.

I used to work for a fantastic company that did the special effects for Star Trek and other sci-fi TV shows... the company grew huge, the projects dried up, and the place went bankrupt. That's what happens. Still the best job I ever had... but not a big shocker when the doors closed.
Telltale was known for being a big employer in the region, with some of the lowest standards. It wouldn't surprise me if many Bay area journalists see this as a potential lost opportunity to enter the industry proper.
 

ickythingz

Banned
Going by their twitter account and the woman who ran that, the company appears to be very sexist and anti man (I am sure white males specifically were targeted). They probably did end up hiring a lot of general trash. That on top of poor management (as already stated) and poor game design, I do not see how this company lasted this long. For the legit quality employees, I do wish them luck in finding a real dev team. For the rest, natural selection has occurred and pruned away the weak links.

Nothing of value here was lost.
 

MC Safety

Member
Telltale was known for being a big employer in the region, with some of the lowest standards. It wouldn't surprise me if many Bay area journalists see this as a potential lost opportunity to enter the industry proper.

Or maybe they look at it as a crappy thing done to 250-plus people who didn't deserve it.

You can leave your hatred for game journalists out of this thread.
 

Wunray

Member
Ah, I forgot, the second episode is out today. Sounds disappointing, especially as a "finale."
Now that I think about it, this season was following season's 2 story beats almost identically. Also wasn't enjoying AJ turning into a little psychotic shit, even when the majority of my decisions were non aggressive/ non violent it's as if your choices don't matter and AJ is selective in his remembering.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Why are you now just re-iterating what i just said, when what you said originally on this point isn't what you are saying now?
Because I was always just talking about management. Why would I talk about what the foot soldiers could do in terms of saving the company? That's not their job to decide and they are in no position to enforce it. Maybe if they had a union, the union might have made suggestions, but in the end, it's the management's decision to make. I am not saying anything contrary to what I said before, the only issue is that (a) I did not make it explicit enough that I was only talking about management and (b) you continue to misread it as something targeting regular employees.
Which is irrelevant as practice showed a different reality. What you are speaking of, is a ''what if'' scenario that will never occur for the inevitable already happened.

What if the employees ditched the CEO from the get-go or else undertook mutiny? Interesting scenario indeed, but in the face of reality where jobs matter more than one's principles (Unfortunately, ill always support those who actually stick up for that) because you have a family to feed or a house that provides your heat, its pretty obvious where employees stood at the time.
I was consistently and exclusively discussing management decisions and their practicability (so regular employees do play a role, but only in terms of whether the proposed task could have been carried out in a reasonable time frame). I was not talking about insubordination at all. Regular employees can make suggestions, but I am in no place to say whether they did that, so I won't discuss that.
Which again, simply was not possible in their situation. In your what if scenario, its totally possible though, but i am not talking about that.
Then we are just talking about different things though. I was talking about management failures and whether the correct decisions (from my perspective) would have been feasible, which they were.
That being said, an overall complete change of engine can set people back a long time, and would presumably take even longer considering the size of the studio at that stage. If you really would want a studio-wide change to new tools, which require re-adjusting, taking courses (Or they would have learned it on the job if the former CEO was still around) you would talk about atleast a year, at minimum, i reckon, just to do that. That's a full year your studio cant do anything but still has all these fulfillments to go for.
Sorry, we are talking professionial programmers here, with a university degree in cs, and with Unity we are talking a very approachable engine with many standardised design decisions in the background. Good programmers shouldn't require a year of training to make the switch, especially considering the very limited nature of Telltale games. And, again, keep in mind the staggered change. One team finishes a season, begins work on the new engine and by the time the next team would make the change to Unity, they could be schooled by the team that started on Unity a couple months back already. By the time all teams have made the switch, maybe one overall project has been postponed / skipped to make the switch to a much more flexible, up-to-date engine and new opportunities for the games would have been opened as well. Also, initial training for new recruitees would be much simpler because of actually using an industry standard technology rather than an obscure engine no one knows.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Not that I would not believe it, given the amount of incompetence I have witnessed myself as a programmer throughout the years, but do you have any actual citation on that?
Yeah, sure.
https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/art...t-technology-is-now-badly-hurting-their-games
A source told me that even as the company was riding the success of The Walking Dead, their engine didn't have a physics system. (Telltale has their own proprietary technology, it doesn't use Unity, Unreal, or something else off the shelf.) If a designer came up with a scene requiring a ball to roll across the floor, or a book to fall off a shelf, it had to done by hand, an enormous time and resource commitment.
 

KonradLaw

Member
The Barlog has spoken...


Pay from what? Does Barlog expect some investor to magically appear with a charity donation for Telltale to pay their dues to ex-employeers? Or for Telltale to defraud any investor they find? Because I don't see any other way to do "l first pay your entire team their severance, and then proceed to finish the final episodes. "
The only way those people are getting any of the money is if Telltale manages to somehow finish the episodes and they pay the ex-employeers from money made by the remaining eps.
 
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MilesTeg

Banned
Way too many games in the same style too quickly. Like wtf. It's a novelty to begin with.

I just played Batman episode 1 and it was good. I got it on PS plus. But then the other episode s were locked. Oops.
 

OldBoyGamer

Banned
Yeah, sure.
https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/art...t-technology-is-now-badly-hurting-their-games
A source told me that even as the company was riding the success of The Walking Dead, their engine didn't have a physics system. (Telltale has their own proprietary technology, it doesn't use Unity, Unreal, or something else off the shelf.) If a designer came up with a scene requiring a ball to roll across the floor, or a book to fall off a shelf, it had to done by hand, an enormous time and resource commitment.

This is absolutely a very real problem for certain types of studios. I worked on a football management game several years ago and we had the same problem - our tech was so ancient from being based on old code that had been around for years that it limited what we could and couldn't do. I remember the artist telling me he couldn't move a pixel on the front end because the code that ran it was so old and the guy who wrote it was no longer there, so that everyone was scared stiff it would break the game.

It's a VERY poor way to run a games studio IMO - more-so when you consider the speed at which the industry runs and changes. Games studios are only really as good as their tech.
 

KonradLaw

Member
This is absolutely a very real problem for certain types of studios. I worked on a football management game several years ago and we had the same problem - our tech was so ancient from being based on old code that had been around for years that it limited what we could and couldn't do. I remember the artist telling me he couldn't move a pixel on the front end because the code that ran it was so old and the guy who wrote it was no longer there, so that everyone was scared stiff it would break the game.

It's a VERY poor way to run a games studio IMO - more-so when you consider the speed at which the industry runs and changes. Games studios are only really as good as their tech.
Yeah. With Telltale it was a vicious cycle. They had so many games and so many episodes they didn't have time to make a switch to new engine. But their engine was getting so old and outdated, they making games on it was more and more time consumin and resource-intensive. Eventually it just became to much, but clearly they should have made the switch to Unity couple years ago.
 

Humdinger

Member
Also wasn't enjoying AJ turning into a little psychotic shit, even when the majority of my decisions were non aggressive/ non violent it's as if your choices don't matter and AJ is selective in his remembering.

That sounds familiar. It was one of the telltale signs of a Telltale game -- they advertised a lot of consequence for the choices you made, but in truth only a couple choices really mattered.

Pay from what? Does Barlog expect some investor to magically appear with a charity donation for Telltale to pay their dues to ex-employeers? Or for Telltale to defraud any investor they find? Because I don't see any other way to do "l first pay your entire team their severance, and then proceed to finish the final episodes. "
The only way those people are getting any of the money is if Telltale manages to somehow finish the episodes and they pay the ex-employeers from money made by the remaining eps.

That's a good point, too. Although Barlog's heart may be in the right place, the finances of this are probably complicated. The company is bankrupt. Any new partner willing to finish the episodes wouldn't be taking on Telltale's old financial burdens. Those would be separate legal and financial issues.
 
H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
That's a good point, too. Although Barlog's heart may be in the right place, the finances of this are probably complicated. The company is bankrupt. Any new partner willing to finish the episodes wouldn't be taking on Telltale's old financial burdens. Those would be separate legal and financial issues.

The likely legal arrangement (based on what I'd expect in the UK - it may be different in the US) is for a new legal entity to be created, which would buy the rights and resources for the particular franchise for a nominal fee - some staff might transfer over to that new company. The new company would thus not have the burdens of the old, and indeed may have a chance to grow into something if the right former staff were brought over, a lean structure established and the re-tooling to Unity completed.

Btw on that re-tooling - the process would have been challenging to do. They took on projects with obvious financial deadlines (and possibly license expiries to consider - they needed to get the maximum out of each license in the time they had) so they would have to create a gap somewhere, for which you need money to keep things ticking over. A new production workflow would be required, which would require training of course but also expert outside help to assist in defining those workflows. A solo developer switching from his home-grown setup to a live one is one thing, transitioning a whole team and a huge workflow is another entirely. This comes with risk. If it took longer than expected to tool up what happens? The first release on the new toolset will encounter pain points you won't anticipate - what do you do? How do you manage the delays? Can you afford to have a delay or does the company lose the license? As much as I bitch at management, I recognise that sometimes spinning those plates gets hard: yes it's a product of bad decisions made earlier on, but once the oil tanker is in motion it gets to be really hard to turn it around.
 
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bigedole

Member
Just played episode 2 of The Walking Dead: Final Season. It was fantastic. Easily the best the series has been since season 1.

I really hope they find a way to make the last two episodes happen. This was shaping up to be a great game.

Does it end on a big cliff hanger leaving everything unresolved? I've played the series since the beginning and I was honestly really looking forward to how it would all end, even if the quality had dipped. However, my biggest pet peeve when I consume entertainment media is unfinished/unresolved ends. I don't think I'll bother until I find out if it's going to get a proper ending, I guess. :(
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Because I was always just talking about management. Why would I talk about what the foot soldiers could do in terms of saving the company? That's not their job to decide and they are in no position to enforce it. Maybe if they had a union, the union might have made suggestions, but in the end, it's the management's decision to make. I am not saying anything contrary to what I said before, the only issue is that (a) I did not make it explicit enough that I was only talking about management
And i was not talking exclusively about management. That's something you wheeled yourself in and then proclaim you were always talking about it when you clearly read i was not referring to that whatsoever.

and (b) you continue to misread it as something targeting regular employees.
I am not misreading anything, what you are talking about is some pie-in-the-sky scenario on what they could have done, which has no basis in reality since the studio is bunk. What you are doing now, is using the Captain Hindsight argument, and listing things they could have done.

I was consistently and exclusively discussing management decisions and their practicability (so regular employees do play a role, but only in terms of whether the proposed task could have been carried out in a reasonable time frame). I was not talking about insubordination at all. Regular employees can make suggestions, but I am in no place to say whether they did that, so I won't discuss that.
It seems you are taking my own hypothetical scenario too literally. To be clear, i was saying that in jest. And in everything, it feels like you have not yet read the Verge article. The big man was management itself. And producer, and director, and sound engineer, aka a guy of multiple hats. There was no standing up against that, unless you were willing to leave the company, and some did, silently.

Then we are just talking about different things though. I was talking about management failures and whether the correct decisions (from my perspective) would have been feasible, which they were.
You made it about talking about management failures when i was not doing that in the first place. I was not talking about the feasability of your possible scenarios, so i have no idea why you have to re-affirm for yourself with the bolded that they were feasible scenario's, when i was not referencing that in the first place. I was talking about the reality of the situation, you were bringing up a what if scenario that has no basis in reality.

Sorry, we are talking professionial programmers here, with a university degree in cs, and with Unity we are talking a very approachable engine with many standardised design decisions in the background.
Your hypothetical scenario involved an engine change in a timeframe where Unity was significantly different from what it is today, which is one thing. The other is that we can't assume that everyone on board would have a knack for re-adjusting to the new tech. This is all assuming that, by the timeframe, the now ex-ceo would be gone already.

Good programmers shouldn't require a year of training to make the switch, especially considering the very limited nature of Telltale games.
You don't know. You don't know if what runs under the hood can easily be replaced or transplanted over to new tech. Just because the games are limited in freedom, does not mean the background processes are. For all we know you might have certain gameplay systems or even bugs be hardcoded into the engine, so much that you get the infamous bug becomes a feature. This is for example true of Id Tech 1.

Engine changes in general slow things down significantly. At best, you can retain some of the systems you made, at worst, you will have to scrap everything because what you have made so far. Telltale Tool was made in Lua, so if you would want to transplant that stuff over to Unity, you will already need a Lua plugin for that, since stock Unity does not do that. (And fortunately, there is just that).

Then you need importers/exporters of your models/textures and what not. You can't safely assume Unity has that covered, so you might need to write extra tools just to import your assets across. And i am just skirting at the edges of the potential issues that one may encounter with an engine change. We don't know how much capacity was dedicated to engine maintenance, or even, if the original creators of said tech were still around (I believe the ex-CEO created the tech.) All i can say is that the engine was improved by Brodie Andersen, among others as highlighted in this interview.

And, again, keep in mind the staggered change. One team finishes a season, begins work on the new engine and by the time the next team would make the change to Unity, they could be schooled by the team that started on Unity a couple months back already.
Great! But this has nothing to do with the harsh reality. Again, the way you are speaking of this makes it sound like it would be a cakewalk to implement in your what if scenario. Disregarding that this isn't what the actual situation is, even in your hypothetical scenario, you simply do not know what you will face. This is why i am against your simplified hypothetical what if theory, not only because its irrelevant to the actual scenario at play here, but because it flagrantly disregards all the issues that one may face with such a change. In the end, it feels like a simplified assumption on your part, generalizing the situation of the actual programmers at TellTale.
 
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Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
And i was not talking exclusively about management. That's something you wheeled yourself in and then proclaim you were always talking about it when you clearly read i was not referring to that whatsoever.
Take a look at my initial postings here. I was always talking about management, and clearly, if you respond to my evaluation of management decisions, I assume that you are talking about management as well. I see no use in discussing what the regular programmer could have done, because obvisouly, in most scenarios, other than complaining, the regular programmer couldn't do much.
I am not misreading anything, what you are talking about is some pie-in-the-sky scenario on what they could have done, which has no basis in reality since the studio is bunk. What you are doing now, is using the Captain Hindsight argument, and listing things they could have done.
It has a basis in reality. It is a general thing to do: Do not use error-ladden, non-standard tech when industry standard tech has matured at a good level and is expected to improve your product significantly. Also, if you are running on a very specific product formula and observe that in most instances you cannot make a profit with that, do not double down on it, but either
(1) differentiate your output
(2) improve the quality
(3) reduce cost
Failure to do any of those leads to an expected bankruptcy. With CS ventures in particular, it is a big problem that many company heads are reluctant to change or improve tech when it becomes apparent that it is faulty, because investment in improvement or change of the tech base does not immediately earn you money.
Your hypothetical scenario involved an engine change in a timeframe where Unity was significantly different from what it is today, which is one thing. The other is that we can't assume that everyone on board would have a knack for re-adjusting to the new tech.
If a professional (high level) programmer in the video games industry cannot adjust to an engine like Unity, the person is an ill fit for the industry.
This is all assuming that, by the timeframe, the now ex-ceo would be gone already.
Or that the now ex-ceo just could have made good decisions.
Then you need importers/exporters of your models/textures and what not. You can't safely assume Unity has that covered, so you might need to write extra tools just to import your assets across. And i am just skirting at the edges of the potential issues that one may encounter with an engine change.
It would be a great surprise if the Telltale tool was not using any standard formats for models and textures, which could be transformed into formats Unity uses. Animations might be a bit more troublesome, but we are talking an engine shift in between products, for what it is worth, so most of the models and textures would have to be redone for the new project anyway, if the new project is more than a "mission pack".
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Take a look at my initial postings here. I was always talking about management, and clearly, if you respond to my evaluation of management decisions, I assume that you are talking about management as well. I see no use in discussing what the regular programmer could have done, because obvisouly, in most scenarios, other than complaining, the regular programmer couldn't do much.
And i was not, but you simply assumed that i was, you even say so right here.

It has a basis in reality. It is a general thing to do: Do not use error-ladden, non-standard tech when industry standard tech has matured at a good level and is expected to improve your product significantly. Also, if you are running on a very specific product formula and observe that in most instances you cannot make a profit with that, do not double down on it, but either
(1) differentiate your output
(2) improve the quality
(3) reduce cost
Failure to do any of those leads to an expected bankruptcy. With CS ventures in particular, it is a big problem that many company heads are reluctant to change or improve tech when it becomes apparent that it is faulty, because investment in improvement or change of the tech base does not immediately earn you money.
:goog_unsure: I am really at odds at this. What you are saying has no basis in reality for the specific Telltale situation, which is what we are discussing. This is why i am saying you over and over again that it has no basis in reality because what you are suggesting refers to a now non-existent situation.

Outside of that, then yes, that is an observation that can hold ground. But then its a generic observation and not a specific one. What you are doing is applying a generic observation to a specific situation and to that i say it holds no basis in reality, as it speaks of things they could have done. Could have, as spoken currently in Hindsight.

If a professional (high level) programmer in the video games industry cannot adjust to an engine like Unity, the person is an ill fit for the industry.
The Unity of 2010-2012 was significantly different than the Unity of 2018. If you never worked with that tech (And chances are people at Telltale didn't given their custom tech) then yes, such a thing represents a significant undertaking.

The fact that you are rather obviously not commenting on the ''You don't know'' alinea tells me that you geniunely don't know what the implications are of what you are saying, but rather than conceding that you are unaware, you simply ignore it. This is something i have seen you do repeately and its a disingenous way of discussing.

Or that the now ex-ceo just could have made good decisions.
:lollipop_confused: Do you always like to explain things for no apparent reason when 3-4 times now you have been given redirects to the Verge analysis, which clearly highlights that this ex-ceo clearly would not be the kind of guy to do so, due to his character? Its literally all there for you to read, yet you still like to imply that things could be different.

The industry does not work around coulds and what ifs, especially when said company is bankrupt. These views would be brilliant for a throwback talk and a opinionated view in hindsight, but with TellTale still emerging from their ashes, its bunk.

It would be a great surprise if the Telltale tool was not using any standard formats for models and textures, which could be transformed into formats Unity uses.
You don't know. The fact that TellTale Tool is done in a language Unity does not support by default is one already. Companies use custom formats all the time. Yes, things are likely to be smoothend out by a LUA interpreter and i reckon a lot of what they use is atleast 3DS Max compatible, but for all we know, they may just use a custom format based off of the 3DS Max specification that Unity does not support.

The onus of this - Nobody knows.

Animations might be a bit more troublesome, but we are talking an engine shift in between products, for what it is worth, so most of the models and textures would have to be redone for the new project anyway, if the new project is more than a "mission pack".
Which means even more slow downs if they have to be redone. Almost like an engine change takes longer than you figured it would be. :lollipop_hushed:
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
And i was not, but you simply assumed that i was, you even say so right here.
If you are talking about something different than I do, then what is the use of starting a discussion with me, when I clearly was solely focussing on the management issues that make it unsurprising Telltale tanked?
:goog_unsure: I am really at odds at this. What you are saying has no basis in reality for the specific Telltale situation, which is what we are discussing. This is why i am saying you over and over again that it has no basis in reality because what you are suggesting refers to a now non-existent situation.
It were real, based in reality, mistakes they made that were obvious even from an outside perspective. Telltale could very well still be alive given a good management style, but management decided to take a popular, but stupid path slowly down the drain.
The industry does not work around coulds and what ifs, especially when said company is bankrupt. These views would be brilliant for a throwback talk and a opinionated view in hindsight, but with TellTale still emerging from their ashes, its bunk.
It is completely unclear to me what you want to tell me with that. Analysing past mistakes is of course always comparing the situation that occured with alternative scenarios, no matter the industry. It is completely lost to me what your point is supposed to be here.
The fact that you are rather obviously not commenting on the ''You don't know'' alinea tells me that you geniunely don't know what the implications are of what you are saying, but rather than conceding that you are unaware, you simply ignore it. This is something i have seen you do repeately and its a disingenous way of discussing.
I do not know what an alinea is, but while I am certainly no expert in games design, I do have a ph.d. in computer science and am an indie developer, so I am also not completely clueless. But to answer that line: I of course do not know specifically what parts of what they did before can just be transferred to the new tech, but since we are talking a change in between project, this is of low significance anyway, assuming they do not want to make games hugely derivative of their previous output ad infinitum. I do not claim to be able to assess for everything they might have wanted to reuse, whether it is an easy fix on engine change, but I do claim that this is not even desirable if you want to increase flexibility and variety of your output. And you do want to do that if your derivative products are clearly not meeting a sufficiently high demand.
You don't know. The fact that TellTale Tool is done in a language Unity does not support by default is one already. Companies use custom formats all the time. Yes, things are likely to be smoothend out by a LUA interpreter and i reckon a lot of what they use is atleast 3DS Max compatible, but for all we know, they may just use a custom format based off of the 3DS Max specification that Unity does not support.

The onus of this - Nobody knows.
Reusing models and textures is a pretty unimportant issue when you are starting a new project either way, so either they are easily reusable, then good, or they are not, but then this shouldn't be a reason not to perform the change at all.
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
If you are talking about something different than I do, then what is the use of starting a discussion with me, when I clearly was solely focussing on the management issues that make it unsurprising Telltale tanked?
Its because your original post:
  • was adressing mines (Or so it seems)
  • speaks in hypothetical ''could have's''.
Which is why i answered with the following. Feel free to re-read that part though, i've made the quote clickable.

It were real, based in reality, mistakes they made that were obvious even from an outside perspective.
Are you deliberately ignoring the part that was exactly below it?
Outside of that, then yes, that is an observation that can hold ground. But then its a generic observation and not a specific one. What you are doing is applying a generic observation to a specific situation and to that i say it holds no basis in reality, as it speaks of things they could have done. Could have, as spoken currently in Hindsight.

Telltale could very well still be alive given a good management style, but management decided to take a popular, but stupid path slowly down the drain.
Hey, there is the could have again. Battlefield V could also not be controversial if management didn'' decide to air that infamous cinematic that got them into trouble. Cyberpunk could also have lived without the scrutiny of a tweet.

They could have. Fact is that things went differently. This is what i am saying time and time again but you remain adamant on speaking about the situation on things they could have done better like a full blown South Park Captain Hindsight parody, and a poor one at that.

It is completely unclear to me what you want to tell me with that. Analysing past mistakes is of course always comparing the situation that occured with alternative scenarios, no matter the industry. It is completely lost to me what your point is supposed to be here.
That as this thread progresses you consistently just ask questions and constantly downplays on things that could have done better, without as much as making such alternative a nuanced one. This starts with your suggestion for engine changes, implying that its an easy thing to do.

I do not know what an alinea is,
:pie_diana: When i referred to the You don't know part, i referred to this:
You don't know. You don't know if what runs under the hood can easily be replaced or transplanted over to new tech. Just because the games are limited in freedom, does not mean the background processes are. For all we know you might have certain gameplay systems or even bugs be hardcoded into the engine, so much that you get the infamous bug becomes a feature. This is for example true of Id Tech 1.

but while I am certainly no expert in games design, I do have a ph.d. in computer science and am an indie developer, so I am also not completely clueless.
This only strengthens the point i made in the previous post. What you do is relying on generalizing statements without any regard for the situation at bay or providing a reasonable baseline from which we can rely upon. When i say that an engine change takes a 1 year, i am making a baseline part because i include multiple factors that are related to said engine change. What do you do, among other statements? ''If a professional (high level) programmer in the video games industry cannot adjust to an engine like Unity, the person is an ill fit for the industry.'' - Which is generalizing. You aren't taking into account the skill level from the employees, which employees had prior experience, if the engine of choice needs more or less work to re-adjust, and so on.

But to answer that line: I of course do not know specifically what parts of what they did before can just be transferred to the new tech, but since we are talking a change in between project, this is of low significance anyway, assuming they do not want to make games hugely derivative of their previous output ad infinitum. I do not claim to be able to assess for everything they might have wanted to reuse, whether it is an easy fix on engine change, but I do claim that this is not even desirable if you want to increase flexibility and variety of your output. And you do want to do that if your derivative products are clearly not meeting a sufficiently high demand.
How is this low significance? Its one of the major things you would look at when reviewing engines.

Reusing models and textures is a pretty unimportant issue when you are starting a new project either way, so either they are easily reusable, then good, or they are not, but then this shouldn't be a reason not to perform the change at all.
Given that TT were making the same game and variations of that same genre, reusing assets would be very much important, which is what we were talking about. Nobody was talking about entirely new projects, this is simply what you are throwing in to make your point. In what were discussing, it is an important issue.
 
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Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Its because your original post:
  • was adressing mines (Or so it seems)
  • speaks in hypothetical ''could have's''.
Which is why i answered with the following. Feel free to re-read that part though, i've made the quote clickable.
I answered to hariseldon.
Which is why i answered with the following. Feel free to re-read that part though, i've made the quote clickable.
Yes, but what you wrote there is only true if you change perspective to an irrelevant one. I never said the small developers were wasting their time, but that the company, controlled of course by the CEO, did have the time to adapt, they just chose not to.
Are you deliberately ignoring the part that was exactly below it?
No, I did not deliberately ignore it, I just did not have anything to say about this. The only valuable discussion I see is about the strategy of the company; what is there to discuss from the perspective of the normal workers other than that it is shit they lost their job?
Hey, there is the could have again. Battlefield V could also not be controversial if management didn'' decide to air that infamous cinematic that got them into trouble. Cyberpunk could also have lived without the scrutiny of a tweet.

They could have. Fact is that things went differently. This is what i am saying time and time again but you remain adamant on speaking about the situation on things they could have done better like a full blown South Park Captain Hindsight parody, and a poor one at that.
Uhm yes, they could have and it would have probably been better in those three cases and in all three cases it was something that could have been recognised beforehand. I really do not get what you want; if we can only ever talk about the exact things that happened without discussing alternative behaviour, then discussion is not fruitful and comes down to "man, that sucks" and "great stuff!" - then we can just have Twitter conversations Trump-style.

That as this thread progresses you consistently just ask questions and constantly downplays on things that could have done better, without as much as making such alternative a nuanced one. This starts with your suggestion for engine changes, implying that its an easy thing to do.
I appreciate that you try to use Resetera vocabulary in italics, but it does not make much sense here, because I haven't been asking questions much, other than for clarification when you posted sentences that were unintelligible to me.
This only strengthens the point i made in the previous post. What you do is relying on generalizing statements without any regard for the situation at bay or providing a reasonable baseline from which we can rely upon. When i say that an engine change takes a 1 year, i am making a baseline part because i include multiple factors that are related to said engine change. What do you do, among other statements? ''If a professional (high level) programmer in the video games industry cannot adjust to an engine like Unity, the person is an ill fit for the industry.'' - Which is generalizing. You aren't taking into account the skill level from the employees, which employees had prior experience, if the engine of choice needs more or less work to re-adjust, and so on.
Two points for that:
1. I am still contesting that it should take the whole team a year to make the engine switch.
2. The bolded quote of mine was wrt your claim that people might be unable to cope with the switch, to which I can just say that is not acceptable for a professional programmer.
Given that TT were making the same game and variations of that same genre, reusing assets would be very much important, which is what we were talking about. Nobody was talking about entirely new projects, this is simply what you are throwing in to make your point. In what were discussing, it is an important issue.
Making the same game again and again when it almost always failed to make profit is part of the dumb management decision. New ways of approaching the general concept were absolutely in order and this would of course also have meant they'd have to discard old assets.
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
I answered to hariseldon.
Then you should have made it apparent as such. Your response was generic enough that it could have been directed towards either.

Yes, but what you wrote there is only true if you change perspective to an irrelevant one.
Literally echoing the same sentiment as others in this thread.

I never said the small developers were wasting their time, but that the company, controlled of course by the CEO, did have the time to adapt, they just chose not to.
:pie_eyeroll:... They didn't have that time. Why? Because they were completely occupied by projects and dealing with a CEO making the most unreasonable of demands. This is literally what i said in my very first response to you. I am really not sure why you are keeping up this game of suggestives and implications. They speak of a hypothetical scenario that does not reflect upon real world results.

Certainly the CEO and the management didn't think about a different engine early on in the success - And why would they, when they were maturing their experience in their Telltale Tool + Unity not being as advanced as it is now, so likely (Assumption on my end) it was not even on their minds back then.

''They just chose not to'' is again a oversimplification of things. As if that option was readily available, they just didn't follow it.

No, I did not deliberately ignore it, I just did not have anything to say about this.
Its literally the damn explanation between what you are saying and why that does not hold up for the current situation. I am literally clarifying things for you here. And for the record - I know what you are talking about. Thats the whole reason why i made that ''Outside of that..'' clause.

The only valuable discussion I see is about the strategy of the company; what is there to discuss from the perspective of the normal workers other than that it is shit they lost their job?
Does this need answering or?

Uhm yes, they could have and it would have probably been better in those three cases and in all three cases it was something that could have been recognised beforehand.
Could have. Meaning it is something said in hindsight. Meaning it does not reflect the actual situation of all 3 cases - Namely that Telltale didn't do what you are suggesting, Battlefield management did decide to air the cinematic and CP2077 did make the tweet as it was a rather obvious joke but yet still got under scrutiny for it.

Its Captain Hindsight.

I really do not get what you want; if we can only ever talk about the exact things that happened without discussing alternative behaviour, then discussion is not fruitful and comes down to "man, that sucks" and "great stuff!" - then we can just have Twitter conversations Trump-style.
You could start by educating yourself on the exact matter before discussing alternatives in the first place. Furthermore: That as this thread progresses you consistently just ask questions and constantly downplay on things that could have done better, without as much as making such alternative a nuanced one. This starts with your suggestion for engine changes, implying that its an easy thing to do.

I appreciate that you try to use Resetera vocabulary in italics, but it does not make much sense here, because I haven't been asking questions much, other than for clarification when you posted sentences that were unintelligible to me.
It is that you always appear as slightly interested on a topic and appearing curious, but not enough to actually give a damn.

If you don't know what just asking questions in this context means then i am not going to help you on that one. I am not going to hold your hand on every little thing here. Please refer to these sentences that were unintelligible to you, else i have no choice but to assume its a thinly veiled snark.

Two points for that:
1. I am still contesting that it should take the whole team a year to make the engine switch.
2. The bolded quote of mine was wrt your claim that people might be unable to cope with the switch, to which I can just say that is not acceptable for a professional programmer.
1. You can contest that all you want, all i see you do is making a generalizing statement without taking into account the various things that come with an engine change. I am talking about averages, all you do is essentially the equivalent of ''I disagree'' with nothing to back that up or to nuance as to how you arrived at that disagreement.
2. I said that one can''t assume that everyone has a knack for the change, meaning that some people require more re-adjustment than others.

Making the same game again and again when it almost always failed to make profit is part of the dumb management decision. New ways of approaching the general concept were absolutely in order and this would of course also have meant they'd have to discard old assets.
Yeah except that was not what we were discussing. Something you do constantly - Silently pushing new metapoints in that have just enough to do with the overall topic to remain relevant but nothing with the meta discussion that we were talking about. Its constantly extending the goal by a few centimetres. Again, nobody was talking about new projects. You just snuck that in so you could iterate on that in your latest post.
 
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ROMhack

Member
Not sure if it's been mentioned but they did an interview with Edge this month.

The CEO is expecting big things as they're finally looking to move away from their crunch-culture reputation and bug-ridden games.

Watch this space. It could be a great year for TellTale.
 
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MC Safety

Member
I stated a fact. It's not my problem you can't get over that. My supposed "hatred" for journos is irrelevant.

Basically get over your self

You stated an opinion and then took exception when it was called out. You have the issue(s), not me.

Eight pages in and this thread still isn’t about game journalists angling for work.

Thankfully, the thread is about Telltale’s former employees now instituting a class action lawsuit.
 

oagboghi2

Member
You stated an opinion and then took exception when it was called out. You have the issue(s), not me.

Eight pages in and this thread still isn’t about game journalists angling for work.

Thankfully, the thread is about Telltale’s former employees now instituting a class action lawsuit.
TellTale hired people in the Bay area, including journo's in the area to work and consult on some of their games. That isn't sone far flung opinion. That is a fact. Get over it.
 

MC Safety

Member
TellTale hired people in the Bay area, including journo's in the area to work and consult on some of their games. That isn't sone far flung opinion. That is a fact. Get over it.


Consulting on a game while working for game publications is a serious ethics breech and and a matter unto itself. As for Telltale hiring former journalists, well, so what?

You're casually missing the opinion part of your argument. You can find it in your initial post if you care to look and be honest. I'm in three posts beyond caring if you're crapping up the thread because evil game journalists.
 

iconmaster

Banned
The skeleton crew that was going to stay on and finish up The Walking Dead seems not to be happening.



Hoeg suspects this is tied to the suit filed against the company. If they really, truly shut down rather than lay off selectively, they're not liable.
 

MiguelItUp

Member
The skeleton crew that was going to stay on and finish up The Walking Dead seems not to be happening.



Hoeg suspects this is tied to the suit filed against the company. If they really, truly shut down rather than lay off selectively, they're not liable.

Ugh, talk about filthy. What a messy situation.
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
The skeleton crew that was going to stay on and finish up The Walking Dead seems not to be happening.



Hoeg suspects this is tied to the suit filed against the company. If they really, truly shut down rather than lay off selectively, they're not liable.

Welp, there goes most of the (Faint) hope that The Final Season would be finished.

If Clemmy could see this unfold, she would have shit-whipped every single member of the management board that played part in this mess. Clem's legacy remains unfinished.
 

Laserschwert

Neo Member
But I also agree with the fact that gamers paid for this content, and are now not getting it (at the moment). So it goes both ways.
Honestly, I wouldn't put the gamers first here. You paid 20 or 30 bucks for this, which is a loss that's negligible. Missing out on severance pay can amount to several months worth of salary (depending on how long you've worked for your company). So I'd happily decline a refund if this helps getting the developers their severance.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Honestly, I wouldn't put the gamers first here. You paid 20 or 30 bucks for this, which is a loss that's negligible. Missing out on severance pay can amount to several months worth of salary (depending on how long you've worked for your company). So I'd happily decline a refund if this helps getting the developers their severance.

The thing is, the refund would not be out of the pockets of Telltale, they are filing for Bankruptcy, it would the storefronts.
 
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