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Thanksgiving Isn't Racist: Change My Mind

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
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Hoo boy. Filmed at UT Austin.

First girl must be on Adderall, goes on a run-on for nearly 10 minutes about Mexico and Guatemala.

Second girl is totally possessed by Intersectionality and goes on self-righteous tirades about what people should and shouldn't talk about at the dinner table.

Third conversation with the guy turned out more respectable and even-handed.
 
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Krappadizzle

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This is a long one. I'm gonna listen to this while I play more Red Dead now and will chime in with my obviously enlightened perspective. I will say now that Crowder has a tendency to just grind my gears because of his approach, but he's mostly on base in his arguments. His "apology" video is one of my favorite politcal apologies of all time. I'll be back soon with my thoughts.

Video for those wondering about the apology:

 
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Krappadizzle

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About 30 mins. in. I think of the many of these that Crowder has done, she is doing an pretty good job of at least engaging in good faith with Crowder. She's not right, but she isn't completely wrong so either. I'm not sure Crowder was expecting to find someone actually willing to speak in good faith. So far, again 30 mins. in, this is a really good discussion.
 

rykomatsu

Gold Member
Jan 2, 2008
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This video is too long. Change my mind.

It seems there is a fundamental impasse with the first 3 folks - still watching...

If I were to sum it up, it's essentially a "how dare you talk about cultural peace because of the atrocities that happened after that period of peace".

If the issue is about acknowledgement...well shit, I'm not sure why learning about the Trail of Tears, manifest destiny, etc is required education in public schools?
 
Dec 15, 2011
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I think the format of these videos and their reasonable-but-confrontational nature are a great piece of social commentary.

I'm certain that there is some judicious editing on the part of Crowder and co, but in all the ones I've watched I find it reassuring that things stay largely civil and, when people actually do talk with each other on what may be considered as contentious topics, there is often some common ground they share.

Far better than one-sided OP-ed activism journalism or 240-character tantrums.
 

Krappadizzle

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After the first conversation the energy changes in the the conversations. The first girl had a great discussion with Crowder and then the energy changed for the other 2 people. I dunno what it was, but the whole first conversation was great, but those last two are just... different. The energy changed and you can feel it watching. I think the first discussion is worth listening to and then Crowder gets way too antagonistic/bored/whatever with the last two and the conversations just aren't fully engaged I feel. Which is hilarious because the first lady is the only one to put the turkey hat on her head. I think Crowder defintely stretches "genocide" further than I think most people do, but he's not really..wrong. I guess. Seems like Crowder himself got bored talking about this and looking silly as fuck and stagnated in the back half of the conversations.
 
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HeresJohnny

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Was just going to post this. Here’s another one that makes me shake my head. I feel like Mr. Hand in Fast Times more and more these days lol:


As for Thanksgiving, my take is that it celebrates the coming together of the two cultures before things went bad. And really, anything that brings families together to spend time these days can’t be a bad thing as far as I’m concerned. It also gives an opportunity to be thankful for all the blessings and things we do have in our lives.
 
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CeroFrio996

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Jun 20, 2019
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I'm not sure Crowder was expecting to find someone actually willing to speak in good faith
Of course he's not, because he doesnt design these to be good faith. By saying "Thanksgiving isn't racist" hes already framed it in a bad faith way and forces the other side to take the "thanksgiving IS racist" side. People who have a more nuanced opinion would likely be browbeaten into adhering to his ridiculous framing. That's not just conjecture, hes done it before. Meanwhile the crazy people who think Thanksgiving is racist get to rant and make Crowders strawman for him.
 

zenspider

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How are we defining racist here? Thanksgiving is more an American exceptionalism creation myth than an historical account, and though I wouldn’t be tempted to look at either take through modern intersectional eyes, I wouldn’t defend the story or the social function from accusations of racism and jingoism. What’s the point? To own the intersectional dummies? CeroFrio996 CeroFrio996 correctly points out the whole framing here has the polarization and bad faith embedded.

Let me know when Crowder posts Columbus Day Isn't Racist: Change My Mind, where the lines are brighter.
 
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zenspider

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Was just going to post this. Here’s another one that makes me shake my head. I feel like Mr. Hand in Fast Times more and more these days lol:


As for Thanksgiving, my take is that it celebrates the coming together of the two cultures before things went bad. And really, anything that brings families together to spend time these days can’t be a bad thing as far as I’m concerned. It also gives an opportunity to be thankful for all the blessings and things we do have in our lives.
I agree that enshrining that story is a good thing - or at least a good reason - but I wonder is there place where we can be truthful about what actually happened (the native population of the East Coast was decimated by 1620; things were bad already), and the truth of the meaning we choose to derive from it: the desire of coming together and being thankful?
 
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HeresJohnny

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I agree that enshrining that story is a good thing - or at least a good reason - but I wonder is there place where we can be truthful about what actually happened (the native population of the East Coast was decimated by 1620; things were bad already), and the truth of the meaning we choose to derive from it: the desire of coming together and being thankful?
I look at it the same way I look at slavery (although the American Indian got fucked far worse than the black man will ever know imo) in that I see what happened was wrong and tragic, but also that it's over and done with and I played no part in it and see little benefit in brooding on it or flagellating anyone over it -- it's time to move on. I think it's important to remember what happened, but that remembering those events and celebrating Thanksgiving are not mutually exclusive.

An interesting aside, I learned that Thomas Jefferson chose not to celebrate the holiday for reasons I haven't yet heard, and that Lincoln actually made it a federal holiday in 1863, which he viewed as a day to be thankful to the creator. Also, Frankie Roosevelt changed the date to one week earlier in like 1939 to spur retail sales earlier, but it pissed everyone off and Congress officially declared the holiday to be celebrated on the last Thursday of November.
 
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CeroFrio996

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Jun 20, 2019
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A holiday where you get to, in a lot of cases, go home early from work and eat dinner with your family?
A holiday that promotes being Thankful for being alive and for what you have?

Terrible holiday!
The customs of the holiday being wholesome in no way changes the history of the holiday. For example the pagan origins of Christmas as we know it and the american Christmas being a jumbled mixture of many cultures is still a fact even if you view Christmas as a wholesome holiday. Personally I view most American holidays and commercialized nonsense built up in American culture to make money.

Smash all holidays and traditions, comrades.

We will then re-educate you, or you get the social gulag.
Quietly consume dear sheep. Buy until you have no money, then take out credit and buy some more. Plane tickets, extravagant meals, expensive gifts at a "bargain" on black Friday.

Forget any of the nuanced history behind these meaningless consumer events and feed the machine.
 
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DeepEnigma

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The customs of the holiday being wholesome in no way changes the history of the holiday. For example the pagan origins of Christmas as we know it and the american Christmas being a jumbled mixture of many cultures is still a fact even if you view Christmas as a wholesome holiday. Personally I view most American holidays and commercialized nonsense built up in American culture to make money.



Quietly consumer dear sheep. Buy until you have no money, then take out credit and buy some more. Plane tickets, extravagant meals, expensive gifts at a "bargain" on black Friday.

Forget any of the nuanced history behind these meaningless consumer events and feed the machine.
Sheep are beautiful animals. I find a lot of humans dumber than sheep.

I don’t “consume consume consume”...Live a pretty damned sustainable lifestyle, actually. More so than most of these bullshit triggered slacktivists.

Thanksgiving is about spending time with family and friends, a moment of pause from contributing flesh and blood to society, taking a load off together and saying, thanks.

I will let you have your strawman since it is still a festive decoration.

Happy Thanksgiving CeroFrio996 CeroFrio996 🙏
 
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zenspider

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Smash all holidays and traditions, comrades.

We will then re-educate you, or you get the social gulag.
It doesn’t have to be one or the other though. Stories like Thanksgiving are cultural myths that serve social functions. Do we have to believe they are all true and good and beyond examination for them to function?

It’s a fiction in which we embed social values. Acknowledging the “non-fiction” as a story that does not contain those values wholesale only undermines the story of Thanksgiving if you need to pretend it’s true for it to be valuable. The “story making” itself can be a greater truth about who we wish to be now and what we wish to celebrate.
 

CeroFrio996

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Jun 20, 2019
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I don’t “consume consume consume”...Live a pretty damned sustainable lifestyle, actually. More so than most of these bullshit triggered slacktivists.
In no way was the specifically about you. It was a stark counter to your "comrade" nonsense. We can enjoy holidays while also learning the truth history instead of some nice lie used to sell us crap we dont need.

Thanksgiving is about spending time with family and friends, a moment of pause from contributing flesh and blood to society, taking a load off together and saying, thanks.
I'm in the hospital today resting after the birth of my daughter. I'm very grateful, and have amazing family supporting me. I dont need to lie to myself about the past of American Indians and settlers to find that thanks.
 

Dirk Benedict

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May 31, 2013
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Fetid, rotted, cursed Isz
The customs of the holiday being wholesome in no way changes the history of the holiday. For example the pagan origins of Christmas as we know it and the american Christmas being a jumbled mixture of many cultures is still a fact even if you view Christmas as a wholesome holiday. Personally I view most American holidays and commercialized nonsense built up in American culture to make money.



Quietly consumer dear sheep. Buy until you have no money, then take out credit and buy some more. Plane tickets, extravagant meals, expensive gifts at a "bargain" on black Friday.

Forget any of the nuanced history behind these meaningless consumer events and feed the machine.
I'll be feeding something alright, my face.

I agree mostly on how holidays are commercialized, just leave my Thanksgiving and New Years out of it.
 

DeepEnigma

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In no way was the specifically about you. It was a stark counter to your "comrade" nonsense. We can enjoy holidays while also learning the truth history instead of some nice lie used to sell us crap we dont need.



I'm in the hospital today resting after the birth of my daughter. I'm very grateful, and have amazing family supporting me. I dont need to lie to myself about the past of American Indians and settlers to find that thanks.
Congrats on the birth of your daughter, and Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
 
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CatLady

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Hoo boy. Filmed at UT Austin.

First girl must be on Adderall, goes on a run-on for nearly 10 minutes about Mexico and Guatemala.

Second girl is totally possessed by Intersectionality and goes on self-righteous tirades about what people should and shouldn't talk about at the dinner table.

Third conversation with the guy turned out more respectable and even-handed.
Thanksgiving is racist now? I didn't even know that. Shows what a racist white supremacist pos I am. Good thing we have these fine SJWs to explain it to all the less enlightened people like myself.
 

Xenon

Member
Easily the best I've seen of CMM. Good discussions had pretty much by everybody and each brought a little extra insight. It was also need to see the last person bring up how the question itself is framed to Crowders benefit. The one hilarious part was that every one of these people asked for acknowledgement when this country has done nothing but acknowledge that to the point of it being against any positive notations of History.

But I think it was a bit disingenuous for him to bring in Mexico's history into a u.s. holiday simply to add shock value their rituals against all indigenous people of North America. I think he could have proved his point without having to constantly repeat that.
 
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DeepEnigma

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Blame Spain for Mexico not the United States, technically, if you’re a screeching self righteous trigglypuff.

Or here’s a novel idea in current year, I know this is a longshot and it’s a tough pill for the privileged to swallow...but every country can blame themselves with their socio economic and other such issues, it’s called self reflection.

They’re all adults, so get bent with bigotry of low expectations.
 
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CeroFrio996

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Jun 20, 2019
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every one of these people asked for acknowledgement when this country has done nothing but acknowledge that to the point of it being against any positive notations of History.
A lot of what happened to American Indians is white washed and twisted to fit certain narratives when taught to children. It's the same with the Columbus story. Children aren't taught history in school, they're taught nationalist fantasy. It's not healthy.

Blame Spain for Mexico not the United States, technically, if you’re a screeching self righteous trigglypuff.
Yes and no. The US is not blameless.

but every country can blame themselves with their socio economic and other such issues, it’s called self reflection.
That is so easy to say in a bubble... the forces that have cause strife throughout central and south America aren't all external, it's TRUE, but plenty of them have been caused directly by our influence.
 
Dec 15, 2011
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A lot of what happened to American Indians is white washed and twisted to fit certain narratives when taught to children. It's the same with the Columbus story. Children aren't taught history in school, they're taught nationalist fantasy. It's not healthy.
Provide objective, verifiable evidence for this claim.

Yes and no. The US is not blameless.
Provide objective, verifiable evidence for this claim.


That is so easy to say in a bubble... the forces that have cause strife throughout central and south America aren't all external, it's TRUE, but plenty of them have been caused directly by our influence.
Provide objective, verifiable evidence for this claim.

I'm quite serious with those requests.
I've seen enough of your, frankly awful, arguments where you tie yourself in the knots of your own bias and cognitive dissonance. I also have just come from a thread where you've pivoted all over the place once challenged. And your response has been to assert shame onto others.

So I think it would be dishonest of me to simply watch you strut around refuting others, attempting to sound authoritative, without you providing the substance required for your arguments. Like some of your other claims, what you're asserting is pretty vast and any reasonable person would think twice about having to support such broad claims, but hey, you made them so it's on you.

Transparency:
I don't live in the US. I don't celebrate Thanksgiving. I have no firm opinion its status or context present or past.
Regard me as a blank canvas, if you like. But do not assume anything you paint is going to be considered a work of art.

Bonus Transparency:
Excuses, avoidance, theatrics etc: Whilst I normally run on a 3-strike rule when I ask basic questions and get such garbage by way of reply, you're recent antics elsewhere have already used up strikes 1 and 2.

Special Thanksgiving Transparency:
I understand the appreciation/gratitude aspect of the holiday. But given your apparent rejection and distaste of it, I know you will understand that I make a point of not extending such seasonal courtesy in your direction. You're welcome.
 
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CeroFrio996

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you're recent antics elsewhere have already used up strikes 1 and 2.
I really dont care. Your methods are boring. Learn basic history and pick up an old middle school american history textbook if you want to see proof of atrocities against American Indians being twisted and white washed.

But given your apparent rejection and distaste of it, I know you will understand that I make a point of not extending such seasonal courtesy in your direction. You're welcome.
I reject commercialism sneaking into every single holiday and I have a distaste for history being upturned in favor of created a feel good holiday. The messages of gratefulness and family aren't things I reject or have any distaste for. I've been reflecting on how grateful I am all week for the family and friends I have, and for the support they are giving me.
 
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TheContact

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The problem with these videos is he probably got legitimate arguments but only shows the dummies

Edit: last guy was legit tho
 
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DragoonKain

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Nov 13, 2013
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The only people who think Thanksgiving is racist are the far left nutjobs who are bitter they have no family to celebrate with, because they got uninvited because no one wants to listen to their crazy sociopolitical rhetoric.
 
Dec 15, 2011
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All the self-congratulatory pompous moral grandstanding is for nought.

You immediately went for evasion and deflection when handed the clearest of opportunities to provide value and substance

Strike 3 CeroFrio996 CeroFrio996 . You're out.
 
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Woo-Fu

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Think I'd accuse Thanksgiving of being religiously intolerant before racist. It is about thanking a Christian deity for not raining down hellfire and brimstone in the previous year, or at least not enough of it to kill everybody.

UPDATE: Seems the pagans did it first, just like most holidays.
 
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autoduelist

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I really dont care. Your methods are boring. Learn basic history and pick up an old middle school american history textbook if you want to see proof of atrocities against American Indians being twisted and white washed.
I can tell you this... in the last nonsense colonialism/genocide thread, I got a list of offenses Columbus did. They were all bunk. One was he was a child slaver, even Snopes agreed, based on a a sentence he wrote about the price of children. Too bad the quote was taken out of context and with his next breath it was made abundantly clear he was saying the child slavers did not deserve water. Another was an atrocity committed after his death. All crap.

Went to the effort of sourcing and providing proof. No retraction from the other poster. No apology. No acceptance of their error. No admission that false narratives might be infecting their world view. They just disappear from the thread, like always, leaving bullshit posts like stale farts in the thread.

Ideologues don't give a fuck about history, they only care about rewriting it to fit their narrative.

If your ideology teaches you to hate your country, your heritage, your own ancestors... it's a safe bet you should be in the market for a new one. Everyone has ancestors guilty of something, yet here we are.
 
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autoduelist

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Happy thanksgiving all!

Give your kids a hug, or your wife kids.

Be thankful for all.
 
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As I stated in the last Columbus thread, would it have been better if the Chinese introduced Smallpox to the native population? The native population of the both North and South American continent's days were numbered until the first contact from the Old World, whoever it may have been.
 

OmegaSupreme

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The problem with these videos is he probably got legitimate arguments but only shows the dummies

Edit: last guy was legit tho
I doubt it. You would hear all about it from them on Twitter. "I gave crowder a good argument but he edited me out! Alt right asshole!"
 
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