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The Atlantic: Programmers: Stop Calling Yourselves Engineers

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Thought GAF might find this interesting.

I’m commiserating with a friend who recently left the technology industry to return to entertainment. “I’m not a programmer,” he begins, explaining some of the frustrations of his former workplace, before correcting himself, “—oh, engineer, in tech-bro speak. Though to me, engineers are people who build bridges and follow pretty rigid processes for a reason.”

His indictment touches a nerve. In the Silicon Valley technology scene, it’s common to use the bare term “engineer” to describe technical workers. Somehow, everybody who isn’t in sales, marketing, or design became an engineer. “We’re hiring engineers,” read startup websites, which could mean anything from Javascript programmers to roboticists.

The term is probably a shortening of “software engineer,” but its use betrays a secret: “Engineer” is an aspirational title in software development. Traditional engineers are regulated, certified, and subject to apprenticeship and continuing education. Engineering claims an explicit responsibility to public safety and reliability, even if it doesn’t always deliver.

The title “engineer” is cheapened by the tech industry.

Recent years have seen prominent failures in software. Massive data breaches at Target, Home Depot, BlueCross BlueShield, Anthem, Harvard University, LastPass, and Ashley Madison only scratch the surface of the cybersecurity issues posed by today’s computer systems. The Volkswagen diesel-emissions exploit was caused by a software failing, even if it seems to have been engineered, as it were, deliberately.

But these problems are just the most urgent and most memorable. Today’s computer systems pose individual and communal dangers that we’d never accept in more concrete structures like bridges, skyscrapers, power plants, and missile-defense systems. Apple’s iOS 9 update reportedly “bricked” certain phones, making them unusable. Services like Google Docs go down for mysterious reasons, leaving those whose work depends on them in a lurch. “Your password contains invalid characters,” a popular tweet quotes from an anonymous website, before twisting the dagger, “No, your startup contains incompetent engineers.”

These might seem like minor matters compared to the structural integrity of your office building or the security of our nation’s nuclear-weapons arsenal. But then consider how often your late-model car fails to start inexplicably or your office elevator traps you inside its shaft. Computing has become infrastructure, but it doesn’t work like infrastructure.

When it comes to skyscrapers and bridges and power plants and elevators and the like, engineering has been, and will continue to be, managed partly by professional standards, and partly by regulation around the expertise and duties of engineers. But fifty years’ worth of attempts to turn software development into a legitimate engineering practice have failed.

Just as the heavy industry can greenwash to produce the appearance of environmental responsibility and the consumer industry can pinkwash to connect themselves to cause marketing, so the technology industry can “engineerwash”—leveraging the legacy of engineering in order to make their products and services appear to engender trust, competence, and service in the public interest.

There's a lot more at the link.

The Atlantic: Programmers: Stop Calling Yourselves Engineers
 

Renekton

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Feb 21, 2014
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"Engineer" title in my country normally commands ultra-low salary (except sectors like O&G), so we kinda avoid calling ourselves that.
 

PetriP-TNT

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Jul 13, 2007
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Fuck you The Atlantic, when I graduated my title was engineer so I can call myself engineer if I want to!

(Usually I go with developer though...)
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
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Commentary on software reliability, and unflattering comparisons with building and architecture, is a decades old pasttime at this stage.

When we build spaceships, is it not engineering because they often fail?

Really reliable software is hard. I do agree that some people don't take an engineering mindset to their programming - however some people do. And software engineering is still a young field.
 

Cowie

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May 2, 2007
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I'm on board, but it's already infected larger companies so it's probably a lost cause.

If we can just stop job listings from looking for "(insert language) ninjas" I'll be happy. fuck.
 
Jun 5, 2013
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who gives a shit.

edit: my piece of paper from my degree says i have it in software engineering and knowing that pisses off "real" engineers makes it all the sweeter actually
 

jchap

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Jun 12, 2010
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Awfully pedantic article. Engineering is an iterative process as well. The difference is only in timescales involved. I say this as someone who holds both CS and advanced EE degrees.
 
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Fair enough. "Engineer" is actually a state-certified profession. It'd be like unironically calling someone who repairs computers a Computer Doctor (Yes I know there are businesses that call themselves computer doctors, but let's be real).

How come train drivers are called "engineers" in North America?

Because they run the engine.
 

Mesousa

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Jun 2, 2013
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"It undermines a long tradition of designing and building infrastructure in the public interest."

You can smell the smug from this one line all the way in phnom penh.

Also why didnt he also call garbage men who are called "Sanitation Engineers" in this country?
 

Joni

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Dec 14, 2009
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—oh, engineer, in tech-bro speak.

A software developer using the title 'engineer' is tech-bro speak now? Really? I guess the definition of 'bro' vis a vis the tech industry has widened to include anything that the speaker wants to denigrate as an establishment element.
 

OminoMichelin

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Feb 7, 2013
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That was a long-ass article (actually, "rant" seems most appropriate) that said absolutely nothing.
Seriously, what is the author even upset about?
 

Faiz

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Nov 5, 2013
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Thought GAF might find this interesting.



There's a lot more at the link.

The Atlantic: Programmers: Stop Calling Yourselves Engineers

Pretty much agree.

A few years ago I had a cousin who was taking classes at a tech school to learn network administration. He was going on about how he was gonna be an engineer.

No man, just no. When you go to an actual engineering school and take actual engineering classes followed by taking the EIT and your career is structured so you can eventually take the PE exam and become a licensed Professional Engineer, then we'll talk.
 

Spork4000

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Mar 29, 2013
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Language changes.

I hope you're kidding, you need an Engineering degree to be an engineer just like you need a doctorate to be a doctor.

I didn't go to college just so a bunch of guys who learned java in their basements can just decide they deserve the same title that I had to bust my ass to earn.
 

Mesousa

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Jun 2, 2013
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Pretty much agree.

A few years ago I had a cousin who was taking classes at a tech school to learn network administration. He was going on about how he was gonna be an engineer.

No man, just no. When you go to an actual engineering school and take actual engineering classes followed by taking the EIT and your career is structured so you can eventually take the PE exam and become a licensed Professional Engineer, then we'll talk.

There is a PE exam for Software Engineering :p
 

Nozem

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May 24, 2013
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Software has bugs and bridges don't, therefore programmers are not engineers.
 

Tacitus_

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Dec 7, 2008
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Once I graduate as a Bachelor of Software Engineering, I'll damn well call myself a software engineer.
 

Wolf Akela

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When it comes to skyscrapers and bridges and power plants and elevators and the like, engineering has been, and will continue to be, managed partly by professional standards, and partly by regulation around the expertise and duties of engineers.

Yeah, expertise that gave us gems like the Tacoma Bridge:
 

Spork4000

Member
Mar 29, 2013
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Software has bugs and bridges don't, therefore programmers are not engineers.

Not the same, software engineers are a thing, you just have to take the FE and then the PE to be one, also bridges can have "over sites" which are kinda like bugs.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
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Fair enough. "Engineer" is actually a state-certified profession.

Some of us have software engineering degrees accredited by our national engineering associations...

If you withhold the title from people who don't have such qualifications, that's fine, but many 'programmers' do.

The thing about programming is, vs say a doctor or an accountant is that you don't need a formal qualification to practice. But such qualifications do exist in the field.
 

mentallyinept

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Jun 7, 2013
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Awfully pedantic article. Engineering is an iterative process as well. The difference is only in timescales involved. I say this as someone who holds both CS and advanced EE degrees.

I agree.

This article is making tons of bad assumptions and shows a shocking amount of ignorance with regards to the positive counter examples they gave to show how "bad" software engineering is.

Cars? Computer controlled and regulated for decades.

How come train drivers are called "engineers" in North America?

Probably because of the train "engine" that they control? I'm not sure though.
 
Mar 14, 2014
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But QA Engineer sounds way better than QA Analyst .....

I should really work on becoming Software Engineer in Test
 
Aug 29, 2009
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Not GAF, lol
I hope you're kidding, you need an Engineering degree to be an engineer just like you need a doctorate to be a doctor.

I didn't go to college just so a bunch of guys who learned java in their basements can just decide they deserve the same title that I had to bust my ass to earn.

I went to college, so am I allowed to be called a Software Engineer?
 

ParityBit

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Nov 14, 2006
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Have fun in your plane/car/train which is all software.

There is a huge difference between a programmer and a software Engineer.
 

Arkanius

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I can't disagree more with this article

I'm an Electrical Engineer, and part of my course work, between learning how to build processors, electrical engines and other things, we learned Software. Because fuck you The Atlantic, good quality software that follows security rules, PROCESSES , is Unit Tested and such is HARD and requires method.

Yeah everyone can Program if they learn, but everyone can talk as well, but not everyone is a linguist.
 

Somnid

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Aug 9, 2006
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If you don't understand software I guess.

First off internally we do use those labels for what you think, programmers are the people who go to a technical school and study Java, software engineers went to a 4 year university and took all the same prereqs other engineers took in addition to computer science/computer engineering.

Secondly, a good software engineer has extremely high quality standards. I have literal handwritten criteria from the product owner that I test against. Each component is tested individually (unit test) and then the whole is tested in an exact replica environment (acceptance test) and then stress tested. This happens for every minor change automatically. In fact I can tell you exactly which pieces are not covered by some sort of test. I have logging when things go back and resilience such that unexpected failures are unlikely to completely take down my application, it just spins up a new instance. You can even take that a step further with Netflix which designed a tool that constantly kills instances to ensure that the service is testing itself all the time and defects are found. Realistically, my process is likely more rigorous than most engineers and I have all the stats to prove it.

The problem is software doesn't sit still. You build a bridge once but you don't release modifications every week, nor do you make sure that its expected to work on all past and future rivers. It's complex, and it's fast and often I don't have total control.

When a game gets rushed the engineers know it's bullshit, they know they can't make a quality product and yet there's not much they can do about it. I can moan at people that they aren't following best practices but I can't make them fix it. In fact I fix as much as I can before people complain about budget.

And finally software fails differently. A security bug can be extremely subtle and have big consequences. To destroy a bridge requires some heavy duty equipment and line of sigh visibility. Software just takes some good analysis or more likely a bad password or stupid employee. I can't fix that, that's a human problem.
 

Hypron

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May 9, 2012
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I hope you're kidding, you need an Engineering degree to be an engineer just like you need a doctorate to be a doctor.

I didn't go to college just so a bunch of guys who learned java in their basements can just decide they deserve the same title that I had to bust my ass to earn.

An engineering degree is not even sufficient to be a real accredited engineer in many countries. You need to go through that accreditation process first, and that can take years after your graduation.
 

LosDaddie

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Dec 22, 2008
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Pretty much agree.

A few years ago I had a cousin who was taking classes at a tech school to learn network administration. He was going on about how he was gonna be an engineer.

No man, just no. When you go to an actual engineering school and take actual engineering classes followed by taking the EIT and your career is structured so you can eventually take the PE exam and become a licensed Professional Engineer, then we'll talk.

Indeed. Otherwise, you're a designer/developer.

Being licensed means a lot in professional world.
 
Aug 29, 2009
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Not GAF, lol
Depends, did you major in software engineering or computer science, and did you take the FE exam all software engineers have to take?

I don't even know what a FE exam is.

I majored in "New Media Design" which was basically art + programming and now I don't even do that, I work as a *gasp* Software Engineer for web technologies.
 

Spork4000

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Mar 29, 2013
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I can't disagree more with this article

I'm an Electrical Engineer, and part of my course work, between learning how to build processors, electrical engines and other things, we learned Software. Because fuck you The Atlantic, good quality software that follows security rules, PROCESSES , is Unit Tested and such is HARD and requires method.

Yeah everyone can Program if they learn, but everyone can talk as well, but not everyone is a linguist.


So what you're saying is.....programmers shouldn't call themselves engineers? So you agree with this article?

I don't even know what a FE exam is.

I majored in "New Media Design" which was basically art + programming and now I don't even do that, I work as a *gasp* Software Engineer for web technologies.

Then no you can't, the job title might be labeled that, but here's a shocker, engineers are licensed. You have to take an exam to get an engineering licence. You aren't an engineer because you say so, you're a programmer.
 

FriedConsole

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Jul 1, 2013
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As a programmer I agree. If we went through the same regerious process as engineering we would get fired. No time for that shit. Throw some shit together and hope it works is usually company policy.

My job title is "developer".
 

tokkun

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Jan 29, 2007
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No man, just no. When you go to an actual engineering school and take actual engineering classes followed by taking the EIT and your career is structured so you can eventually take the PE exam and become a licensed Professional Engineer, then we'll talk.

That varies by your engineering discipline. For Civil Engineers it's important to become a certified professional engineer. However for Electrical Engineers it is relatively uncommon to do so. There is just not much incentive to do so, even if you meet all the qualifications.
 

SummitAve

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Jul 19, 2012
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Huh, there's really no PE for software engineering? I guess I never thought about it. I suppose software engineers don't have to take ethics class and stuff as well.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
43,343
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So what you're saying is.....programmers shouldn't call themselves engineers? So you agree with this article?

The article says far more than that:

“Engineer” is an aspirational title in software development. Traditional engineers are regulated, certified, and subject to apprenticeship and continuing education.

It's talking as if that doesn't exist in software engineering at all. It does. (edit - well, the accreditation process may differ by discipline, and country, but where i am, an engineer's accreditation doesn't necessarily involve all of these things... but formal accreditation by the national association of engineers here is a thing in the software engineering field)

It's true too in my company, there are technically 'just' programmers and then there are software engineers, even if often a distinction isn't made between them in many contexts. Blanket applying the article's logic to every 'technical worker' isn't going to go down well...
 

params7

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I liked my first job out of college where I did helpdesk IT support stuff but the company called the position "NOC Support Engineer". I felt nice and important :D
 
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