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The Australian Politics Thread

Ozzy Onya A2Z

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The only people that really that are at risk are very old or very sick.
How hard can it be to bump up isolation for all old folks homes and avoid them from being infected?

And then let everyone else get on with their lives without needing internal travel passports in order to get to / from work
like east germany.
As piss poor a response as I expected. I am not enlightened.

Our deaths range from 30-95, majority are in Victoria (over 60% of Australia's total) and between 69-89. There have been babies, kids and healthy middle age dying from Covid OS as well. You take in zero account of the severity of those infected, recovered or re-infected.

All of my 4 parents (I'm married) are in this majority age group and none are in aged care, 1 still works even.

Your solution isn't a solution. I could point out more but frankly can't be fucked.
 
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Cato

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Great news everyone!
Unfortunately regarding level 4 they say Melbourne will might level 4 restrictions in early september,
BUT, level 3 restrictions will last until december!

I think this is premature and just gambling with peoples lives. Why cant they remain at level 4 until december?
 
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mickaus

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May 30, 2019
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NT border will remain closed for at least 18 more months.
That is 18 more months of not being able to meet up with your interstate relatives.

Yeah it is so stupid. My sister is trying to have her wedding early next year (A full year after the Pandemic began) and even though Western Australia and the Northern Territory have had basically 0 local cases for a few months, the border controls will be going on for so long that most of the grooms family can't come from Darwin without paying crazy quarantine fees.

What is the point of having no cases if we are living in worse conditions than the USA?
 

Cato

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Yeah it is so stupid. My sister is trying to have her wedding early next year (A full year after the Pandemic began) and even though Western Australia and the Northern Territory have had basically 0 local cases for a few months, the border controls will be going on for so long that most of the grooms family can't come from Darwin without paying crazy quarantine fees.

What is the point of having no cases if we are living in worse conditions than the USA?
To continue on that.
At this stage, when they are declaring that they will have a hard border in place for at least 18 months.
It would make sense if they made away with the traffic cones and these ad-hoc police-car at the border crossing style checks
and just go full out and build permanent structures with border gates, proper buildings with border security officers, ...
 

Cato

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As piss poor a response as I expected. I am not enlightened.

Our deaths range from 30-95, majority are in Victoria (over 60% of Australia's total) and between 69-89. There have been babies, kids and healthy middle age dying from Covid OS as well. You take in zero account of the severity of those infected, recovered or re-infected.

All of my 4 parents (I'm married) are in this majority age group and none are in aged care, 1 still works even.

Your solution isn't a solution. I could point out more but frankly can't be fucked.
The virus is not actually that much worse than the normal flu, if even that.
But mass hysteria has made everyone lose their minds. Just a few months ago people were calling for "we must have lockdown in australia or 10-20% of the population will die" which is a ridiculous exaggeration by hysterical people.

Now, to get HOW deadly this virus is compared to the average flu is hard since so many places have active suppression attempts so how can you tell if the mass deaths did not happen due to the suppression efforts or if covid is just not that super deadly.


The best data point we have so far is ironically Sweden, just for the fact that they did pretty much nothing, except try, and fail, to avoid letting it get into the old peoples homes. No lockdown, no shutting down schools, no mandatory masks, no curfew, no restriction on travel, no closed restaurantes etc etc.
I.e. for most of the population there were no restrictions at all and everyth9ing was basically just normal. This actually gives us something to work with. As it looks like they now have ~30% immunity, and thus are in herd immunity territory, we have a dataset of at least 3 million people there that have been infected. (30% of 11million people).

No vaccine and no effort to suppress the virus and after it has now burnt through a large part of the population and the infection is dying out (a lot less people die every day now in sweden compared to australia right now)
and they tallied about 5500 deaths.

That is a lot. But for the normal flu, we have a vaccine that is somewhat reliable.
About 4 thousand people die from normal flu every year in sweden.

So:
No vaccine and no suppression, ~5.500 people dead per year by covid
Have vaccine and no suppression, ~4.000 people dead per year by flu.

Of course it is sad when people die, but this narrative that "this is so much worse than the normal flu" is just ridiculous.
We have the data and the data tells us that either it is ~50% more deadly than the normal flu, and this also then means that the flu vaccine is useless shit.
Or it means, more likely, it is pretty much as lethal as the ordinary flu.


What I am saying is that unless your family members already suffers from life-threathening preconditions, you should maybe not panic about the covid so much. Or if you want to panic, you should probably panic about as much as you panic about them getting the normal flu. Possibly up to 50% more.

But if they are very old, frail, and have life-threathening preconditions, Yes, they should absolutely avoid getting covid. And they should avoid getting the normal flu. And they should avoid getting the cold.
 
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Ozzy Onya A2Z

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The virus is not actually that much worse than the normal flu, if even that.
But mass hysteria has made everyone lose their minds. Just a few months ago people were calling for "we must have lockdown in australia or 10-20% of the population will die" which is a ridiculous exaggeration by hysterical people.

Now, to get HOW deadly this virus is compared to the average flu is hard since so many places have active suppression attempts so how can you tell if the mass deaths did not happen due to the suppression efforts or if covid is just not that super deadly.


The best data point we have so far is ironically Sweden, just for the fact that they did pretty much nothing, except try, and fail, to avoid letting it get into the old peoples homes. No lockdown, no shutting down schools, no mandatory masks, no curfew, no restriction on travel, no closed restaurantes etc etc.
I.e. for most of the population there were no restrictions at all and everyth9ing was basically just normal. This actually gives us something to work with. As it looks like they now have ~30% immunity, and thus are in herd immunity territory, we have a dataset of at least 3 million people there that have been infected. (30% of 11million people).

No vaccine and no effort to suppress the virus and after it has now burnt through a large part of the population and the infection is dying out (a lot less people die every day now in sweden compared to australia right now)
and they tallied about 5500 deaths.

That is a lot. But for the normal flu, we have a vaccine that is somewhat reliable.
About 4 thousand people die from normal flu every year in sweden.

So:
No vaccine and no suppression, ~5.500 people dead per year by covid
Have vaccine and no suppression, ~4.000 people dead per year by flu.

Of course it is sad when people die, but this narrative that "this is so much worse than the normal flu" is just ridiculous.
We have the data and the data tells us that either it is ~50% more deadly than the normal flu, and this also then means that the flu vaccine is useless shit.
Or it means, more likely, it is pretty much as lethal as the ordinary flu.
What all of that fails to grasp is this is the first season of Covid, the flu has already covered the globe repeatedly where Covid is a mere 6-8 months old. Covid has an infection rate magnitudes higher than "normal flu", its death rate is also higher. Further flu strains number around 70-90 by definition currently, when you speak of a flu vaccine you're actually only talking about 4-6 strains being vaccinated against. The Swiss are a healthy group of people too, enabling less deaths than say widespread Americans by comparison, same goes for the general hygiene, environmental cleanliness etc.

Now let us get to some specific facts about Sweden vs Australia -

Sweden -
84K infected
5.5K deaths
Half the population of Australia
Testing at 900,000 total

Australia -
22K infected
361 deaths
Twice the population of Sweden
Testing at 5,000,000 total


We test approx. 5 times as much, we have double the population but far less infected and far less deaths. So let me get this straight you want to open everything up, immediately wipe out thousands of people and give the virus a foothold. The other elements you're not grasping is repeated seasons and unknowns of Covid. It could mutate faster than the "normal flu", its seasons could be more frequent and we already know repeat infections are a thing too. Imagine fast forwarding a few seasons of Covid and no vaccine, you're all good to have another top 5 deaths virus spread freely everywhere, given your solution of just go about daily life.

Not a very sound humanitarian argument there mate. Sweden's death rate is 11 times greater than their neighbour Norway, putting Sweden in the death category with Pakistan or Haiti.

See how you feel about getting back to normal life when it's your parents or grandparents dropping dead *not wishing that one anyone.
 
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Cato

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What all of that fails to grasp is this is the first season of Covid, the flu has already covered the globe repeatedly where Covid is a mere 6-8 months old. Covid has an infection rate magnitudes higher than "normal flu", its death rate is also higher. Further flu strains number around 70-90 by definition currently, when you speak of a flu vaccine you're actually only talking about 4-6 strains being vaccinated against. The Swiss are a healthy group of people too, enabling less deaths than say widespread Americans by comparison, same goes for the general hygiene, environmental cleanliness etc.

Now let us get to some specific facts about Sweden vs Australia -

Sweden -
84K infected
5.5K deaths
Half the population of Australia
Testing at 900,000 total

Australia -
22K infected
361 deaths
Twice the population of Sweden
Testing at 5,000,000 total


We test approx. 5 times as much, we have double the population but far less infected and far less deaths. So let me get this straight you want to open everything up, immediately wipe out thousands of people and give the virus a foothold. The other elements you're not grasping is repeated seasons and unknowns of Covid. It could mutate faster than the "normal flu", its seasons could be more frequent and we already know repeat infections are a thing too. Imagine fast forwarding a few seasons of Covid and no vaccine, you're all good to have another top 5 deaths virus spread freely everywhere, given your solution of just go about daily life.

Not a very sound humanitarian argument there mate. Sweden's death rate is 11 times greater than their neighbour Norway, putting Sweden in the death category with Pakistan or Haiti.

See how you feel about getting back to normal life when it's your parents or grandparents dropping dead *not wishing that one anyone.
I wouldn't put Infected at 84k. It is a number that is used all the time in media together with 84k infected and 5.5k dead.
84 vs 5.5 looks very scary, but the 84k number is just not meaningful here.

Just because someone hasn't been tested does not mean they never got infected. And if you deliberately do not test much then you will not record many infections.
But you can estimate the true value.
If Stockholm alone has over 30% immunity then you can deduct that probably more than 400k people in stockholm has been infected in the past.
If the rest of the country outside stockholm has over 20% immunity, you can deduct that an additional 2M people has been infected and recovered.

So, to look at Swedens numbers use 2.4M infected and not the meaningless 84k.


You are absolutely right that the virus might mutate and mutate fast. There is also suggested evidence than any immunity only last as short as 6 months. That could be true too.
But if that is true, it really has the immediate consequence that a vaccine would not work much and neither would herd immunity.

What do we do then? If both a vaccine as well as herd immunity proves ineffective? We remain in yoyo forever ?
(a vaccine is just a different way to reach herd immunity)
 
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Ozzy Onya A2Z

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I wouldn't put Infected at 84k. It is a number that is used all the time in media together with 84k infected and 5.5k dead.
84 vs 5.5 looks very scary, but the 84k number is just not meaningful here.

Just because someone hasn't been tested does not mean they never got infected. And if you deliberately do not test much then you will not record many infections.
But you can estimate the true value.
If Stockholm alone has over 30% immunity then you can deduct that probably more than 400k people in stockholm has been infected in the past.
If the rest of the country outside stockholm has over 20% immunity, you can deduct that an additional 2M people has been infected and recovered.

So, to look at Swedens numbers use 2.4M infected and not the meaningless 84k.


You are absolutely right that the virus might mutate and mutate fast. There is also suggested evidence than any immunity only last as short as 6 months. That could be true too.
But if that is true, it really has the immediate consequence that a vaccine would not work much and neither would herd immunity.

What do we do then? If both a vaccine as well as herd immunity proves ineffective? We remain in yoyo forever ?
(a vaccine is just a different way to reach herd immunity)
You break your own argument there. You trust the estimated immunity numbers but distrust the factual tests numbers, that's not logical. The point being it all has to be taken conservatively for now, anything else is reckless and dangerous.

In terms of what do we do? Right now the answer is the only thing we are able to do, remain safe and work on solutions. Live to fight another day. Just because we don't have an answer right now doesn't mean we won't discover one or have one present itself as time goes. There is a nice Vaccine Tracker in various news outlets, I'll randomly select this NY Times one for now -


135+ preclinical, with 8 now in large scale efficacy tests and 2 approved for early/limited use. These are the "real" skilled teams working on a vaccine/treatments. There isn't just a vaccine required as it won't be 100% nor will the entire planet be vaccinated instantaneously hence the need for both effective treatments and vaccines. There's progress, we will see what happens over the rest of this year especially. Right now we just need to help each other out and get into the later phases of these medical processes. Just realise Victoria, Australia is literally two thirds of all deaths in Australia and it's best to stay safe and stop the spreading for now, regardless of political alignments.

As I mentioned in other replies you can't actually believe politicians, governments, economies, dictators, people and all that actually want the world locked down and restricted. Nobody wants it, it's necessity. As areas have less infection they can relax those restrictions, when things are more intense the restrictions apply or reapply. It's fluid at the moment.
 

Cato

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You break your own argument there. You trust the estimated immunity numbers but distrust the factual tests numbers, that's not logical. The point being it all has to be taken conservatively for now, anything else is reckless and dangerous.
No, I am perfectly logical. If you deliberately do not test you will not get many confirmed numbers.
Just like if you turn off the speed camera you will not catch many peole speeding.
It does not mean that people did not get infected or people sped.

If 2.4 or more people in Sweden have antibodies and are immune. How did that happen if only 84k people got infected?
These 2.4 million people either got antibodies from a vaccine, which we do not yet have, or they got it the normal way, i.e. by
overcoming an infection.

That is why the 84k number is meaningless.
For the longest time Sweden refused to do testing of the general population and ONLY would allow testing of those people that were hospitalized for flu like symptoms. You could not get a test, they would not allow it, even if you wanted a test.
IF you were hospitalized, that was the ONLY way to get tested.
This is why that number is meaningless.
We do know that >=2.4milion people there have antiboodies and since we know they did not get them from a vaccine we can deduce that they must have been infected and recovered.

EDIT: I mean, your theory is that the 2.4+ milion people did not get antobodies from a vaccine (I can buy that) and they did not get them from being infected (erh?). So HOW did they get the antibodies then? Your claim here is really wild but is basically a third vector, not vaccine nor infection, but a third vector that has until now been unknown within medical science. If you can explain how this happened I am 100% certain a trip to Stockholm to get a Nobel Price in Medicine is in order. That is how fucking wild your theory is.
 
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Cato

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So the trip takes 6-7 hours longer to get the dying kid to the hospital.

Que 100 retards from Victoria to harass her for being so selfish and not wanting to respect closed borders.
I feel sorry for the family. Sorry they are surrounded by hysterical retards.

All for something that now that we have actual hard data is proven to be no worse than the annual flu.
 
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Cunth

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what are the numbers for the flu like this year? havent heard a thing
 

Cato

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what are the numbers for the flu like this year? havent heard a thing
Jesus. No one counts the flu anymore. It is nothing we have to worry about.
Just like no one counts how many people die from lung cancer,
or heart disease or other conditions just because they are fat or alcoholic.

Get with the time mate.
How many people actually do die each year because fat, smoker or alcoholic is the question.

Fucking hell.
It is estimated 15.500 people die every year due to smoking related diseases in australia.
Can we shutdown the world and go into level 4 countrywide for 3 months to get everyone off the nicotine?

6000 people die a year from alcohol in Australia.

And 50.000 people die every year in australia because they are fat pigs, i.e. obese.


But two thousand people might die because a really bad flu means we have to shut down the world.
Thankyou fucking retard Karen from Melbourne. Thankyou Ozzy Onya A2Z Ozzy Onya A2Z
 
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Cato

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what are the numbers for the flu like this year? havent heard a thing
For you my fecal friend.

Flu is down, but
Alcohol killed 6000 people
Tobacco killed 15.500 people
Fatty Fat Pig killed 50.000 people.

Unless you are Karen from Melbourne, I wouldn't worry about the flu (~1000 deaths annually).
 
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Ozzy Onya A2Z

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Jesus. No one counts the flu anymore. It is nothing we have to worry about.
Just like no one counts how many people die from lung cancer,
or heart disease or other conditions just because they are fat or alcoholic.

Get with the time mate.
How many people actually do die each year because fat, smoker or alcoholic is the question.

Fucking hell.
It is estimated 15.500 people die every year due to smoking related diseases in australia.
Can we shutdown the world and go into level 4 countrywide for 3 months to get everyone off the nicotine?

6000 people die a year from alcohol in Australia.

And 50.000 people die every year in australia because they are fat pigs, i.e. obese.


But two thousand people might die because a really bad flu means we have to shut down the world.
Thankyou fucking retard Karen from Melbourne. Thankyou Ozzy Onya A2Z Ozzy Onya A2Z
Come on mate, I identify as a Ken not Karen.

Again you contradict yourself, 300,00 flu infections last year in Aus, 1,000 deaths.

Covid hasn't spread over repeat seasons or full geography/populace yet like the flu has for decades. Covid has approx 350 deaths from 22K infections. So basic math from your own point is 350 x 12 to reach 300,000 infections and we have over 4,200 deaths.

How about other factors such as hospitalisations required or Covid has nearly a ten times higher infection rate or permanent damage from Covid which aren't deaths. Covid has more detrimental effects than the flu.

You factor so little and over simplify. None of your causes of death are infectious nor airborne. I also note you failed to mention smoking and secondhand smoke was literally banned in all sorts of places due to health issues or how health insurance promotes and rewards a healthy lifestyle. We do combat your very examples, heavily even.
 
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mickaus

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A few days worth of fines.









A lot of those examples are people who are just idiots, but the curfew thing is something else. How long are they going to keep that in place? With New Zealand starting up again, restrictions are probably going to be long term and having a curfew long term just seems paranoid.
 
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Bullet Club

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A lot of those examples are people who are just idiots, but the curfew thing is something else. How long are they going to keep that in place? With New Zealand starting up again, restrictions are probably going to be long term and having a curfew long term just seems paranoid.
I'd assume it will be in place until mid-September, when the S4 lockdown is supposed to end.
 

Cato

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NZ says their outbreak is linked to and caused by Victoria.
Jesus.
Why do we allow goods to cross the Victorian border? Just locking down people moving around is not enough.

We must ban and block all goods and transports in or out of Victoria or else we will never be safe.
Just look at NZ and they being back in lockdown due to the mistake of allowing this deadly and dangerous trade and transport of goods from Victoria.
It is still unconfirmed whether the Victorian to NZ spread was accidental or deliberate.
But we should not take any chances.

Build the wall.
 
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Cracklox

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Anyone else fart to cover a cough in public these days, rather then the other way around? I struggle to always get one brewed at the right time, and coughs can kinda sneak up. Working on it though.

In other news, nearly 400 deaths. Less then half a year to get 800 more to beat the 2017 flu season.

From the ABS

In 2017 there were 1,255 deaths due to influenza, recording a standardised death rate of 3.9 per 100,000 persons. This is a significant increase from 2016 where 464 influenza deaths were recorded. An individual dying from influenza in 2017 was most likely to be female, aged over 75 years, have multiple co-morbidities and living in the eastern states of Australia.
We were so stupid back then letting people get on with their lives and not creating fear and division, led by media and politicians, while destroying livelihoods and the economy to save some old people who were likely on deaths door anyway. How was this not all over the news?!?!

I for one now regret all my actions in 2017, and wish I could retroactively lock myself down.
 

sazzy

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NZ says their outbreak is linked to and caused by Victoria.
Jesus.
Why do we allow goods to cross the Victorian border? Just locking down people moving around is not enough.

We must ban and block all goods and transports in or out of Victoria or else we will never be safe.
Just look at NZ and they being back in lockdown due to the mistake of allowing this deadly and dangerous trade and transport of goods from Victoria.
It is still unconfirmed whether the Victorian to NZ spread was accidental or deliberate.
But we should not take any chances.

Build the wall.
What about AIR? Put Victoria in a BUBBLE
 
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mickaus

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NZ says their outbreak is linked to and caused by Victoria.
Jesus.
Why do we allow goods to cross the Victorian border? Just locking down people moving around is not enough.

We must ban and block all goods and transports in or out of Victoria or else we will never be safe.
Isn’t all of Australia’s PPE made in a tiny shed in Victoria? :messenger_astonished:
 

Cunth

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The influenza death toll for 2020 stood at just 36 from 21,005 cases on August 9 — the latest available figure — with the last fatalities coming in May.

By mid-August 2019 — a particularly bad year for flu — there were 486 deaths from 214,377 cases.
We did it. We beat covid the flu.
 
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Bullet Club

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Yep.

Google should have to pay more tax, but not to the news organizations. Give it to Cato so he can build his wall.

The Great Wall Of Palmer
 

Cracklox

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Say what you want about him, but Alan Jones's coverage of this flu season has been spot on. Might as well be an an older, angrier, balder and possibly smarter me, talking to a tv camera.

 

Cato

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Yep.

Google should have to pay more tax, but not to the news organizations. Give it to Cato so he can build his wall.

The Great Wall Of Palmer
I approve this message.

Though we do not need that tax revenue.
Once we break off from the communist part of "commie-australia" and build a new and beautiful better Australia
and we don't have to redirect our mining and export income to the parasites in NSW and VIC we will have virtually infinite money for this beautiful wall.
The wall will be so big and beautiful it can be seen by the naked eye from the Moon !

It will be epic. The wall will be one mile high and mile thick and cover all along the border of qld.
At the top of the wall we will pain a beautiful mural in 1 mile tall letters "QLD Lives Matter" over and over along the length of the wall
so the people in the space station can see it!

Once every 90 minutes the austronauts look down on earth and see this beautiful message "QLD Lives Matter".
 
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Cunth

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Scomo says covid vaccine will be mandatory. I’m not taking that shit till you guys take it first and see what mutations you get
 
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Shmunter

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Scomo says covid vaccine will be mandatory. I’m not taking that shit till you guys take it first and see what mutations you get
Likely designed just to sterilise X% of the population to save the world from humanity.

It had to happen at some point.
 
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Bullet Club

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Dan Andrews is trying to extend Victoria's state of emergency status for another 12 months.
 
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Macapala

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FUCK OFF DAN!!

Another 12 months of this shit?? People are going to lose their shit if he does this...

Christmas is cancelled, right?
 
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