The conditions of the most "progressive" and "Inclusive" states/cities are horrible.

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IQ researchers have gone to different countries, paid willing participants to take tests, graded them, and then came up with an average.

It strikes me as cognitive dissonance why this method is "flawed" yet the patterns repeat themselves worldwide. Black populations are always scoring in the 60s ~ 80s range, White populations are always scoring in the 100 ~ 103 range, East Asian populations are always scoring 105 or above.

You would have a point if there was IQ data that suggested an outlier, like if White Americans scored on average lower than Haitians, but that information does not exist.

I will leave this video of Rushton confirming Lynn's analysis. Starting @ 5minutes, he went to South Africa and tested both White and Black College test takers.
Once again, the Black average is still one standard deviation below the White average. It's not flawed. All the answers are right there.





So why not let companies take that risk? Are you saying no high IQ people exist?
He has probably never worked at any job that requires critical thinking, problem solving, or is project based position. Many companies routinely hire base on the IQ of the candidates. It starts at the resume review(review of education/experience), to the written performance(which ironically is designed to test for measurable IQ traits such as math, science, and English abilities), to the oral interview, and finally the final selection of the best fit.

Many managerial/project-based jobs require a very high IQ, while many menial/process-based jobs do not.

Staying inline with IQ debate, only dishonest fools would deny the existence or usefulness of this measurement tool in today's society. IQ measures the ability of a person to perform complex and complicated tasks, such solving advance math problems or using logical reasoning. IQ does not determine if someone is moral, ethical or generally a good person. A lot of people in this thread are trying to conflate this distinction and using bad faith to discredit hard facts.
 

JordanN

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To be fair to Jordan (and he can correct me if I'm wrong), I don't think he's arguing that environment has 0 impact either. Just that it's small or negligible compared to genetics.
Europeans colonized all corners of the globe. Would they have done that if there was something in the water that would make them sick?

Anywhere Europeans lived on earth, their IQ's never matched the natives. It always remained the same as if they were still in Europe.

While environment is always a factor, genetics has constantly shown that patterns exclusively exist on racial lines.






By the way, it's interesting that Asians represent the highest U.S incomes, despite upper management being mostly White.



However, they still represent the majority of tech jobs.

 
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IQ researchers have gone to different countries, paid willing participants to take tests, graded them, and then came up with an average.

It strikes me as cognitive dissonance why this method is "flawed" yet the patterns repeat themselves worldwide. Black populations are always scoring in the 60s ~ 80s range, White populations are always scoring in the 100 ~ 103 range, East Asian populations are always scoring 105 or above.

You would have a point if there was IQ data that suggested an outlier, like if White Americans scored on average lower than Haitians, but that information does not exist.

I will leave this video of Rushton confirming Lynn's analysis. Starting @ 5minutes, he went to South Africa and tested both White and Black College test takers.
Once again, the Black average is still one standard deviation below the White average. It's not flawed. All the answers are right there.





So why not let companies take that risk? Are you saying no high IQ people exist?
You gotta do your research man.

This guy is noted for getting caught using selective data, convenience samples (coinicdentally excluding higher scoring samples without providing inclusion/exclusion reasons), and falsifying data in his studies. His methodology has been found unsystematic as Weicherts later pointed out. I remember Lynn the most out of all of them.

The Flynn effect will take care of all of that Jordan as Africa westernizes.

He has probably never worked at any job that requires critical thinking, problem solving, or is project based position. Many companies routinely hire base on the IQ of the candidates. It starts at the resume review(review of education/experience), to the written performance(which ironically is designed to test for measurable IQ traits such as math, science, and English abilities), to the oral interview, and finally the final selection of the best fit.

Many managerial/project-based jobs require a very high IQ, while many menial/process-based jobs do not.
To utilize IQ scores you need to demonstrate a data driven relationship between scores on the IQ test, and measures of performance on the job. So no, they don't, because it's hard to prove job relevance to IQ score.

Someone giving you a problem solving puzzle, and you solving it so they can see your displayed critical thinking and creative characteristics on the fly isn't that. There was a time when companies tried to use proxy tests, but that didn't last long.

What you are talking about is prone to bias, but it's whatever, it's not the same thing.
 
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JordanN

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You gotta do your research man.

This guy is noted for getting caught using selective data, convenience samples (coinicdentally excluding higher scoring samples without providing inclusion/exclusion reasons), and falsifying data in his studies. His methodology has been found unsystematic as Weicherts later pointed out. I remember Lynn the most out of all of them.
Prove it.

ssolitare said:
The Flynn effect will take care of all of that Jordan as Africa westernizes.
Africa is already westernized.

How do you think they experienced a huge population growth in the last 50 years? They never had the technology to sustain such numbers before coming in contact with Europe.
Even the idea that Africa is just now modernizing is ridiculous. Africa has had railroads since the 1860s, but a lot of them now lay in ruin after independence.

And the flynn effect does not remove genetic differences.

 
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Prove it.



Africa is already westernized.

How do you think they experienced a huge population growth in the last 50 years? They never had the technology to sustain such numbers before coming in contact with Europe.

And the flynn effect does not remove genetic differences.

It's already been showed time and time again. That's what I keep getting at, you're using old information when people have moved on. The question that you need to ask yourself is why are you so fixated on it.

The genetic component is partial like it is for everything at the least, and even reduced partial when dividing by race.

Note this graph, it's just beginning. Though I do say this study ain't the greatest.

 
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JordanN

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It's already been showed time and time again. That's what I keep getting at, you're using old information when people have moved on. The question that you need to ask yourself is why are you so fixated on it.
Moved on from what? The Black/White gap has been studied for 100 years. It has not disappeared

ssolitare said:
The genetic component is partial like it is for everything at the least, and even reduced partial when dividing by race.

Note this graph, it's just beginning. Though I do say this study ain't the greatest.


According to your chart, American Whites should have IQ's of 130, making them the smartest in the world. There is no scenario where that makes any sense.
 
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Moved on from what? The Black/White gap has been studied for 100 years. It has not disappeared

According to your chart, American Whites should have IQ's of 130, making them the smartest in the world. There is no scenario where that makes any sense.
Lynn has been moved on from. He used cherrypicked non-representative samples amongst other things, and that was the end of that.

The IQ mean is always 100ish, but what you need to know about Flynn today is that modernity is more responsible. We're not inherently smarter or more intelligent than other generations, but benefit on IQ tests due to the world that we grow up in being different (benefitting from the progress), and should be better or worse at different things on average because of it.
 
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JordanN

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Lynn has been moved on from. He used cherrypicked non-representative samples amongst other things, and that was the end of that.
So post these "cherrypicked" samples. I want to look at them myself and understand what is inconsistent about them.

ssolitare said:
The IQ mean is always 100ish, but what you need to know about Flynn today is that modernity is more responsible.
It's not the mean in black populations. And in East Asian countries, they score above the 100 mark on average.

100 as an average only exists when talking about Whites.

ssolitare said:
We're not inherently smarter or more intelligent than other generations, but benefit on IQ tests due to the world that we grow up in being different (benefitting from the progress), and should be better or worse at different things on average because of it.
Except this is still incorrect.

Every race scores the same as their parents generations did, and their grand parents generation. There has never been an overlap or crossing over of IQ scores among different racial populations.


 
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Notice that Jordan has yet to respond to the last post (or the two before that) and is still not addressing the bias in African IQ measurement (on his claims on Africa specifically)population of ethnic groups in said measurements, and the country example, with Links, i gave.

I mean Jordans been breaking the rules for awhile not using deceptive tactics and dismissing many things. (also making completely false claims like Africa owing its population growth to western technology when it was already outpacing Europe before colonization and had empires of large populations than the European ones.)

I mean it may be best just to stop communicating and report if he won't actually respond to anything and keeps flipping the subject to avoid addressing points that dismantle his argument.
 

JordanN

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Notice that Jordan has yet to respond to the last post (or the two before that) and is still not addressing the bias in African IQ measurement (on his claims on Africa specifically)population of ethnic groups in said measurements, and the country example, with Links, i gave.

I mean Jordans been breaking the rules for awhile not using deceptive tactics and dismissing many things. (also making completely false claims like Africa owing its population growth to western technology when it was already outpacing Europe before colonization and had empires of large populations than the European ones.)

I mean it may be best just to stop communicating and report if he won't actually respond to anything and keeps flipping the subject to avoid addressing points that dismantle his argument.
A massive population growth requires a source of food. Africa does not appear to have the actual farming capacity to support themselves. They're getting help from the outside world to stay fed while they still pump out 8 babies per mother.




Edit: It's actually pretty damn ironic that Zimbabwe (pictured above) had a higher birth rate back when it was Rhodesia.
After Mugabe took control and made threats against the last White farmers, did the birth rate finally decrease.

 
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According to your chart, American Whites should have IQ's of 130, making them the smartest in the world. There is no scenario where that makes any sense.
100 as an average only exists when talking about Whites.
Jordan, they literally take the median of the raw scores of all of the people taking a given test, and then set the normalized score of "100" to that value. The chart is not saying White Americans should have a normalized IQ score of 130.
 
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JordanN

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Jordan, they literally take the median of the raw scores of all of the people taking a given test, and then set the normalized score of "100" to that value. The chart is not saying White Americans should have a normalized IQ score of 130.
That chart provides no context of where each score is coming from or what are they are even gaining.

Just saying "U.S gained 30 points" means nothing. 30 points from what? And what is the UK and Sudan doing there then?
 
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JordanN

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Are those images from 1990?


And what is your beef with Aborigines? How do you even IQ test them? Were you molested while watching Quigley Down Under?
That's a question I also ask myself.

They have a recorded IQ value of 62, which is even lower than the African or Black American average. And before anyone says "oppression", I've read the Australian government even spends a ton of money trying to improve their welfare but the results have always been abysmal. It keeps getting harder and harder to deny genetic IQ differences.

Now imagine if Australia had never been colonized by Europeans. How many in this thread would be saying Australia was never suitable for civilization?
 
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A massive population growth requires a source of food. Africa does not appear to have the actual farming capacity to support themselves. They're getting help from the outside world to stay fed while they still pump out 8 babies per mother.


Edit: It's actually pretty damn ironic that Zimbabwe (pictured above) had a higher birth rate back when it was Rhodesia.
After Mugabe took control and made threats against the last White farmers, did the birth rate finally decrease.
None of this has anything to do with my post or the last one you skipped.

You just seem to be posting picture and making random points completely off the topic of discussion.
 
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Jordan, they literally take the median of the raw scores of all of the people taking a given test, and then set the normalized score of "100" to that value. The chart is not saying White Americans should have a normalized IQ score of 130.
I mean Jordan left eh conversation long ago, he ignored my posts with examples and links, and when i called him on it he randomly brought up Zimbawe for some reason which not only did he use to generalize a continent (which doesn't make sense) but had NOTHING to do with the topic we were discussing before.

I think he's all burnt out.
 

JordanN

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I mean Jordan left eh conversation long ago, he ignored my posts with examples and links, and when i called him on it he randomly brought up Zimbawe for some reason which not only did he use to generalize a continent (which doesn't make sense) but had NOTHING to do with the topic we were discussing before.

I think he's all burnt out.
It's not just one example. South Africa will shortly demonstrate the exact same thing when they remove white farmers, and go to starving.

But it's no skin off my back. Too much evidence for this type of stuff exists. Just ignoring wont make it go away.

I mean Jordan left eh conversation long ago, he ignored my posts with examples and links, and when i called him on it he randomly brought up Zimbawe for some reason which not only did he use to generalize a continent (which doesn't make sense) but had NOTHING to do with the topic we were discussing before.

I think he's all burnt out.
Are you having short term memory?

Afro Republican said:
making completely false claims like Africa owing its population growth to western technology when it was already outpacing Europe before colonization and had empires of large populations than the European ones.)
 
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JordanN

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In response to the continued claims of Japan and South Korea were made superpowers by America, can someone explain to me why the entire world isn't advanced by now?

With the amount of money the U.S and other Western countries donate year after year, where the hell is it all going that each country should have their own NASA space program by now?




It took Japan only 20 years to reach the highest recorded IQ in human history, yet no other (non-Asian) country seems to have caught up with that?




And while China is listed in this map, consider they surpassed most of Africa in the last 50 years, despite being ruled by "oppressive" communism.




How long can we keep supporting these impoverished countries forever? If the excuse is that colonialism is the cause for all the worlds problems, then why do the same colonized countries accept foreign aid instead of working on their own infrastructure? Why is it that the Western world is literally paying for entire nations to maintain themselves?
 
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It's not just one example. South Africa will shortly demonstrate the exact same thing when they remove white farmers, and go to starving.

But it's no skin off my back. Too much evidence for this type of stuff exists. Just ignoring wont make it go away.


Are you having short term memory?

So not only are you continuing NOT to respond to my last two posts and the examples (with links) but you have decided to take one isolated issue out of my posts and have once again tried to change the subject (and also using few countries to generalize the continent but that's another issue)(or the dumb long debunked belief half the money to "africa" actually goes to africa instead of non-african organizations or the $800billion in LGBT and human rights organizations that was supposed to go toward infrastructure.)

I mean are you on drugs or something? Why can't you just directly respond to the points I made? maybe you need a reminder. Let's try to keep things going one at a time so you stay focused.
 
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So seeing that Jordan still hasn't addressed any of the points made in 146....

African (continent) IQ's are measured biased in completely different ways no other continent/country are measured. I can look at IQ's based on region and/or state/province/district in countries even in Asia and South America, let alone the USA, Europe, and a chunk of the middle east. We have some countries in Eastern Europe separating non-native IQ's from the rest, or putting all of the ethnics/groups in one but not evening out and balancing the results when 95%+ of the country is one group.

African Countries are measured randomly, often they will go to few locations and generalize the whole IQ's just based on that, most regional studies are by individuals/organizations doing it out of curiosity voluntarily. Most other studies that research a country with groups/ethics of people will try and even out representation which doesn't make sense, and also will never give you regional/district/state differences.

If I have 7 million people in group X and 300,000 in group Y, it wouldn't make much sense to split both of them 50/50 or near 50/50 with a sample size of 1 million if group X has an average IQ of 101 and group Y had the average IQ of 75, that complete screws up the average. Just like going to 7 schools in ONE region in some of the southern countries on the continent isn't anywhere near enough to generalize the rest of the continent, especially if you don't take into account ethic groups.

Not only that but most of the border lines were drawn to cause friction. You can't have 50-500 ethnic/cultural groups in a country and expect thing to work properly. South Sudan wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the fact the split would split resources Sudan used to have (same thing with Rwanda in the past.)

Nigeria is another great example, it's average IQ is biased lopsided toward the north. Cutting out many Northern stays in the south and cutting the North off would bring the IQ to around 100 in Southern Nigeria, removing all but Igbo Land would put it around 105, and that was as of 5 years ago. Igbo is also criminally under-studied in IQ tests as it's again, biased toward the north with some western tribes included with small portions of Igbo which fucks with the actual average score. Again nowhere else. Which makes no sense since just IN Igbolands territory there's around 50 million people not including the millions of Igbo across the country.

Nigeria's also a perfect example of why having significant populations of different cultural groups that don't share common culture can't work and will produce different results.

The Nigerian North had (and still currently is in) a crisis, and the conditions over the last 15 years has barely improved overall.


The video shows one of the top Northern Cities, the aesthetics, Infrastructure, Roads, etc. are not much better than 15 years ago and this is common across the whole region. Constant chaos, Boko Harem, massive infrastructure failures, and etc.

The west side of the country with the western cities and mid western cities have better infrastructure, less corruption, though still a problem, and involvement in multiple tech, media, agricultural, and mineral sectors, however things are poorly managed, bad city planning, inconsistent grid infrastructure, half-finished infrastructure all over, poor roads, trash issues, and heavy poverty gaps and lack of jobs is a big issue.


The above cities show the conditions descries above.

On the Igboland Eastern side, it's always been ahead of the other two combined. This area has been ravished by a intentional civil war backed by Britain/UN/Russia etc interests when Igbo tried to succeed, followed by the government replacing politicians and stealing housing, discriminatory policies, and other issues over the last 2 decades since the 90's. However when new policies were passed and holes of opportunity opened, the area started to get catch up and pass the other two, and that was in 2014. Igboland in all areas now is ahead by a large margin, with big investments in cities, including managing population sizes and spread to prevent overcrowding, a powerful electric grid, Concrete roads, an advanced port, investment in finance, agricultural, tech, etc. sectors. including plans for auto and Phone manufacturing and a new telecommunications headquarters (under construction) among several news schools.


These before and after videos are just ONE area of the region known as IGBOLAND and keep in mind that due to based and corruption this area was hurt badly in terms of funding. In fact, the administration of this area recived the LEAST amount of financial support from the government and in just three years you can see the results. there are even videos of people being send there blind-folded and thinking they were brought to a different city.

Imagine if the government stopped being ass holes and gave that region better treatment. but that war of secession will never leave them. Darn shame they couldn't succeed, I'd like to see a country run completely by those in the region. Oh well.
 
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It's not just one example. South Africa will shortly demonstrate the exact same thing when they remove white farmers, and go to starving.
Unless every country sanctions South Africa like Zimbabwe, then no. The latest estimates on white ownership is 22%, but there's a lot wrong with that data. For instance deeds don't list race, and there are many tribal farms that can't be counted due to that. Commercial farms can't be counted well either.

So basically, you don't have enough information available to make such a judgment. So you're better off being neutral on that....but you can't because it's not about information.
 

JordanN

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African (continent) IQ's are measured biased in completely different ways no other continent/country are measured. I can look at IQ's based on region and/or state/province/district in countries even in Asia and South America, let alone the USA, Europe, and a chunk of the middle east. We have some countries in Eastern Europe separating non-native IQ's from the rest, or putting all of the ethnics/groups in one but not evening out and balancing the results when 95%+ of the country is one group.
Rushton went to South Africa and tested both White and Black college students. The results were literally the same as all other tests done on any major black population.

You bringing up the Igbos does not disprove IQ research at all. Comparisons already exist within other ethnic groups where there exists an "elite" population.

Israel is the perfect example of this. It's officially a "Jewish state" yet Jews come from all over the world. There are Ashkenazim (European) Jews, followed by Mizrahi (Middle Eastern/Arabic) Jews, Oriential (Asian) Jews and Ethiopian (African) Jews.

Once again, the highest scores are Jews with mixed European ancestry (Ashkenazi) and the lowest are Jews with sub-saharan ancestry (Ethiopian).

Whatever problems that go on in Nigeria has no relations to how IQ tests are scored. If you want to create or set aside territory exclusively for an Igbo state, then more power to you. But I'm not here to do that for you.
 

JordanN

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Unless every country sanctions South Africa like Zimbabwe, then no. The latest estimates on white ownership is 22%, but there's a lot wrong with that data. For instance deeds don't list race, and there are many tribal farms that can't be counted due to that. Commercial farms can't be counted well either.

So basically, you don't have enough information available to make such a judgment. So you're better off being neutral on that....but you can't because it's not about information.
South Africa has been descending into chaos since the 90s.
To go after White farmers and somehow expect miracles to take place soon after shows how incompetent and hilariously out of touch their government is.

But that's what happens when you elect a government based on feelings, not facts.
 
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Rushton went to South Africa and tested both White and Black college students. The results were literally the same as all other tests done on any major black population.

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This doesn't respond to a single point in by post with how African countries are measured in IQ with Bias. All You said here was that some guy went to ONE country and tested black and white students in a single region. Also your last line is a lie, because all the other studies in other black populations are not by state or region unlike every other country in the world, they combine and even out scores for ethnic groups regardless of their populations, which are again, not don on any other area in the world.

For some reason you won't respond to that, instead you conflate studies to make yourself feel better that you have no argument, ignoring the fact that all the other studies were done differently, some areas are understudied, and some parts of many countries were not studied at all.

So again i ask you, why will you not address the bias of other countries? you're literally ignoring my post and desperately clinging on to SA because that's all you have. Just like how you randomly brought up Zimbawe as some example that Africans can't farm in general (you clearly implied this) you're just a horribly dishonest person. I really don't know why you so toxic during conversations, try actually having an honest discussion this really isn't hard, respond to points directly, stop moving goal posts, stop giving low-effort posts then trying to switch the topic, and you even directly lied a few times. If you don't have an answer say you don't.


You bringing up the Igbos does not disprove IQ research at all. Comparisons already exist within other ethnic groups where there exists an "elite" population.

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This line shows you didn't read a single word of my post first post, on this page or my repost of 146 you avoided. Otherwise you would have actually addressed all the point I made, instead you did another merry-go-round.


Whatever problems that go on in Nigeria has no relations to how IQ tests are scored. If you want to create or set aside territory exclusively for an Igbo state, then more power to you. But I'm not here to do that for you.
it does because it's an indisputable example and proof of how IQ is NOT MEASURED without biased to african countries, and Nigeria is literally an example of bias being in play. And why ethnic groups are purposefully measured in ways that don't happen anywhere else to skew averages.

Again, at this point clearly breaking the rules and not even trying to have a real discussion, this is now a thread of you trying to save your ego and your very badly researched opinions. I'd suggest you educate yourself on some of the "white" professionals that have also directly pointed out historical bias in IQ measuring since the mid 20th centurey, including pictures and documents, and what was measured and what wasn't measured (sometimes on purpose) but the fact you'll deny this example right in front of you and change the subject is baffling.

Again, try an honest discussion.
 

JordanN

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This doesn't respond to a single point in by post with how African countries are measured in IQ with Bias.
Bias does not affect race.

If you take all the European ethnic groups and put them under one category (i.e White American) their average IQ will fit neatly below the Asian average while being higher than the Black average.

In all African countries, nothing bucks this trend. Whether it's Sudan, Nigeria, or South Africa, the average IQ is still one standard deviation below European samples.

I was even going to try and look up what exactly is the ethnic makeup of each African country, but I just got bored and realized that I would have to do this for every country and the answer is very predictable if you know what the race is. What do I gain out of this?

Afro Republican said:
. Just like how you randomly brought up Zimbawe as some example that Africans can't farm in general (you clearly implied this) you're just a horribly dishonest person.
I said they lack the farming capacity to sustain large populations after Europe made contact with them. Zimbabwe springs to mind because they were a country whose growth was influenced by Europeans ruling the country, only for when Mugabe took over and kicked them out, they began to starve and beg for handouts.

If they can farm for themselves, then by all means, let them do it. But the large amount of food aid that pours into the continent tells me they're not rejecting it for some reason.

Afro Republican said:
it does because it's an indisputable example and proof of how IQ is NOT MEASURED without biased to african countries, and Nigeria is literally an example of bias being in play.
Israel is measured in the exact same way. How many times do I have to say this?
The racial disparities still exist. You've been trying to use Nigeria's government as a wedge against this, but I do not care about their politics. These are "Iq Tests" not "Government and Borders" Tests.

Afro Republican said:
This line shows you didn't read a single word of my post first post, on this page or my repost of 146 you avoided. Otherwise you would have actually addressed all the point I made, instead you did another merry-go-round.
I saw your post @ page 146. There is nothing there that changes what I said. That was the post ranting about sabotage and the same bias I constantly refuted.

Just because you mention diversity in your posts, doesn't mean diversity does not exist outside of Africa. Israel, Brazil, even some parts of the Middle East and Asia like Singapore or the United Arab Emirates, they're all not homogeneous populations. Making it out to be just an African thing or why these borders are so important, is not relevant at all to IQ research.
 
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Bias does not affect race.

If you take all the European ethnic groups and put them under one category (i.e White American) their average IQ will fit neatly below the Asian average while being higher than the Black average.
Which has nothing to do with what I said about their being biased in measurements for African countries, you literally are no just desperately trying to circle around the fact you don't have an answer. Constantly bringing up unrelated information out of context, and acting like you posted relevant information.

Again, Hungary, they usually separate the non-hungarian population from the primary demographics, why don't they do that in Africa country/ Why do they even out all the ethnic groups in African countries/ the countries that have more ethnic groups in a territory than anywhere else in the world? Why do they sometimes only measure one ethnic group at an isolated university and generalize the IQ of the country while not testing any others? Why when they DO do that they even out the sample sizes ignoring population? Why in most countries outside of the African continent i can get splits by region or state?

You have continued avoiding responding to this by trying to slickly change the topic knowing that people would tire out of your BS and just nod their head, but the truth is you literally have no answers and too lazy to actually look into the issue despite the fact you said you were interested in "studying" this subject. Again a completely dishonest conversation with you using bottom of the barrel trash tactics to make it look like you know what you're talking about but you actually have no refute or information. But apaprently you think you can find a way out by making irrelevant comparisons that have nothing to do with the subject. That's why you started out flipping between America and Africa early when you were arguing with multiple people, because you've been trying to cause confusion. Sad.

I was even going to try and look up what exactly is the ethnic makeup of each African country, but I just got bored and realized that I would have to do this for every country and the answer is very predictable if you know what the race is. What do I gain out of this?
Which means you weren't going to try shit, we already knew that from earlier in the thread. You never had an argument. You don't even need to know all the ethnic groups per country to know my statement above about bias IQ measurement is consistent with almost all the countries on the continent. Wht you're trying to gain is a way out but the reality is you're position from the start has been poor since your starting argument with @Arkage. But I'm glad at least you admitted to lying about even trying to research this subject and only came here to feed your ego.

I said they lack the farming capacity to sustain large populations after Europe made contact with them. Zimbabwe springs to mind because they were a country whose growth was influenced by Europeans ruling the country, only for when Mugabe took over and kicked them out, they began to starve and beg for handouts.
because Zimbabwe is all the countries in Africa, including the ones that knew how to farm already and helped teach Europeans farming techniques a couple centuries ago. Let's use SA and Zimbawe two countries to generalize the whole continent even in countries where this theory is contradicted. Also ignore those east European and Asian famines because.......

Israel is measured in the exact same way. How many times do I have to say this?
.
You're an idiot, Nigeria IQ was measured primarily by the Northern region and ignored most of the South outside measurements that took place in the rural areas of the Southwest region ignoring the areas that had Industry, and a very small population if Igboland, some IQ measurements don't include them at all, and some only include the Northern region. But you're going to tell me there's no bias and Israel is measured that way?

They did the same thing in the Congo, which has a very large number of ethnic groups, they literally went to random isolated towns and did IQ's there ignoring industry areas and areas that are primarily part of the state. A bunch of groups were never tested, how is that fair enough to give the whole country an average number if there's no average and tons of missing data?

Why are almost all Rwanda tests ignoring the top schools or the top areas around industry? Rwanda is a very small country yet they still used the same bias there. But you say there's no bias and Israel was measured the same way? it's almost like you've done no re- oh wait you already admitted you were lazy and basically lied this whole thread.

Just because you mention diversity in your posts, doesn't mean diversity does not exist outside of Africa. Israel, Brazil, even some parts of the Middle East and Asia like Singapore or the United Arab Emirates, they're all not homogeneous populations. .
yes, let's compare countries with 20 or less native ethnic groups to countries with 80-300 native ethnic groups, that makes sense, brilliant. Also let's ignore the fact that in some countries population sizes are disregarded and some ethnic groups are not measured at all, or all ethnic groups are measured, but with the same percentages, ignoring population, done nowhere else in the world. But hey, Brazil and Israel have ethnic groups hurr hurr hurr, I'm JordaN and I have no idea what the YI(&@# I'm saying.

Do yourself a favor and drop this subject before you make yourself look even dumber.
 

JordanN

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Which has nothing to do with what I said about their being biased in measurements for African countries, you literally are no just desperately trying to circle around the fact you don't have an answer. Constantly bringing up unrelated information out of context, and acting like you posted relevant information.
Hold on.


Afro Republican said:
yes, let's compare countries with 20 or less native ethnic groups to countries with 80-300 native ethnic groups
Why should I care? What is significant about this? If you want to dismiss other countries that have multicultural makeup (i.e Brazil or Israel) then why should I pay attention to your number?

IQ scientists have already studied individual African groups and the results still turn out the same. You can find scores for the Zulu, Nilotic, Bushmen, San, Bantu ethnic groups, the answer is still that far majority of them score below 100.

Here's an even greater example.

The Atlantic slave trade took various Black groups along the West and East coast of Africa and they were sent to the new world. Even if you picked one black country at random, chances are their IQ scores are still exactly the same as from the region they came from. The only one example that slightly differs from this are Black Americans, only because they contain 25% traces of European ancestry, but as a result, it also means their average IQ is higher than ALL of Africa.

That is how powerful predicting IQ and race is. And why I'm not going to waste my time going through 300 different ethnic groups.


Afro Republican said:
They did the same thing in the Congo, which has a very large number of ethnic groups, they literally went to random isolated towns and did IQ's there ignoring industry areas and areas that are primarily part of the state. A bunch of groups were never tested, how is that fair enough to give the whole country an average number if there's no average and tons of missing data?
And what is the source of this information?

Afro Republican said:
Again, Hungary, they usually separate the non-hungarian population from the primary demographics, why don't they do that in Africa country/ Why do they even out all the ethnic groups in African countries/ the countries that have more ethnic groups in a territory than anywhere else in the world? Why do they sometimes only measure one ethnic group at an isolated university and generalize the IQ of the country while not testing any others?
Again, Rushton went to South Africa and tested Black University students. They still scored lower than the White average. It confirmed everything we already know about the region.

I'm going to leave you with this paper. You do not need to sample every ethnic group in Africa. Race and ancestry are much stronger predictors of IQ, than environment and wealth is.

This paper uses data from 130 IQ test administrations worldwide and employs regression analysis to try to quantify the impact of living conditions on average IQ scores in nationally-representative samples. The study emphasizes the possible role of conditions at or near the test-takers' time of birth. The paper finds that the impact of living conditions is of much smaller magnitude than is suggested by just looking at correlations between average IQ scores and socioeconomic indicators. After controlling for test-takers' region of ancestry, the impact of parasitic diseases on average IQ is found to be statistically insignificant when test results from the Caribbean are included in the analysis. As far as IQ and the wealth of nations are concerned, causality thus appears to run mostly from the former to the latter. The test-takers' region of ancestry dominates the regression results. While differences in average scores worldwide can thus be plausibly viewed as being influenced by genetic differences across world regions, it is also possible that score differences are influenced by regional differences in culture that are independent of genetic factors. Differences in average IQ across world regions may change in the years ahead insofar as the strength of Flynn effects may not be uniform, but some regional differences in average g levels seem likely to continue indefinitely
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.439.4227&rep=rep1&type=pdf


Afro Republican said:
Which means you weren't going to try shit, we already knew that from earlier in the thread. You never had an argument. You don't even need to know all the ethnic groups per country to know my statement above about bias IQ measurement is consistent with almost all the countries on the continent. Wht you're trying to gain is a way out but the reality is you're position from the start has been poor since your starting argument with @Arkage. But I'm glad at least you admitted to lying about even trying to research this subject and only came here to feed your ego.
It's a waste of my time to do this because compare one multicultural society to another and where does it put Africa? Even the most mixed non-black societies still have higher IQ scores than mostly homogeneous African ones. There is absolutely nothing for me to learn because the answer does not change anything.


Afro Republican said:
You're an idiot, Nigeria IQ was measured primarily by the Northern region and ignored most of the South outside measurements that took place in the rural areas of the Southwest region ignoring the areas that had Industry, and a very small population if Igboland, some IQ measurements don't include them at all, and some only include the Northern region. But you're going to tell me there's no bias and Israel is measured that way?
Show me some sources on where you're getting this?
In fact, all this time, I've been asking for sources where are you getting all this information on testing Africans, so show them to me now.


Afro Republican said:
because Zimbabwe is all the countries in Africa, including the ones that knew how to farm already and helped teach Europeans farming techniques a couple centuries ago.
Source?
Also, how could they teach Europeans to farm if they were still in Africa centuries ago?

Afro Republican said:
Also ignore those east European and Asian famines because.......
The Soviet Union or China always had farming. But communism meant the state oversaw all production which lead to shortages and thus famine.
 
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Why should I care? What is significant about this? If you want to dismiss other countries that have multicultural makeup (i.e Brazil or Israel) then why should I pay attention to your number?

IQ scientists have already studied individual African groups and the results still turn out the same. You can find scores for the Zulu, Nilotic, Bushmen, San, Bantu ethnic groups, the answer is still that far majority of them score below 100.
You're now asking why should you care about your own argument.

It's not dismissal it's you making comparisons that don't make sense and avoiding the subject. Which is what you did the whole post.

The point is there are based measurements in African countries, and I've explained so many times on HOW that you have not ADDRESSED once. IQ scientists have NOT studies individual groups they have studied "Select" groups some where never studied at all and IQ scientists have in some cases, when they did get SOME of them, equally represented the groups despite population differences.

Everytime i explain this you change the subject and never address it, and often you'll go to SA or Zimbabwe which only proves my point that there's bias in IQ measurements because you can't find more than a few examples of IQ testing that has been done on a ethnic basis outside a few countries. So the fact you have to keep going back to countries like SA is based on the fact you don't and can't find any other data.

So this goes back to the part where you literally don't have an argument and have been avoiding addressing the elephant in the room, biased IQ calculations in most african countries. Not in one other region of the planet are ethnic groups equally represented, not one place on the planet, are countries not separated by regions/states/districts, not one place on the planet are there so many question marks and missing datapoints that have yet to be collected.

I've given you several examples and you continue not to address them falling back on the only data you have because YOU CAN'T FIND ANYTHING ELSE. But won't admit it because your hardheaded. Every time you've said "X was done in other countries" you lied. Because they haven't. You've had no choice but to be dishonest and generalize the continent based on a few countries because that's the only way you can pretend to observers you have an argument.

You bring up ethinic groups ignoring the very examples I gave you and several factors you've omitted only to ignore them and say "what about Israel" once again proven this subject is not only of no interest to you, despite your earlier claim, but you'd rather spread false incomplete information as truth to save face than actual talk about facts.

You ignore the massive ethnic group presence in many countries as well as ethnic groups that were not even part of some of these countries 80 years ago. Like, for example, the Somalies, which they include in many countries IQ examples disproportionately, when in Europe they either never include them at all or separate them. Also they go with the major ethnic groups first, why is a tiny somali ethnic group recently added to a country getting an even share of the pie chart despite being less than 2-1% of the population?

But hey no bias right? Just one of the many examples you know nothing about because you never research, you're lazy, and went with the old IQ claim without actually looking into to how things or measured or why. Which makes it pointless for you to even attempt an argument. it's like arguing me about the effects of certain drugs on the brain when you only have some cliff notes from a biased drunk guy and you specialize in Auto-mechanics. But once again you won't actually respond to anything I'm saying just change the subject again. Or pretend to be dumb.

You'd think all those missing data points you can't find for most African countries might clue a somewhat intelligent person in that maybe something might be off, but eh see in SA there are some lols and...

The only one example that slightly differs from this are Black Americans, only because they contain 25% traces of European ancestry, but as a result, it also means their average IQ is higher than ALL of Africa.
Yet Blacks with less than 15%-0% European blood constantly do better than the mixed Blacks with higher percentages, and are among the smartest blacks in the country which contradicts your point and go- wait why are you bringing up America again I though we were on Africa? oh wait, you flipped the subject again because you have no argument. Again....But hey you've never put any effort in your argument I'm not surprised. You'd actually have to.. Look into things to do that.


Again, Rushton went to South Africa and tested Black University students. They still scored lower than the White average. It confirmed everything we already know about the region.
Yep, that one university, in that one country, confirms the whole continent. Even though over 21 countries contradict that. Not just recently, but historically. But hey, if you don't have data points and are a lazy liar you don't need to actually you know, do research on a continent of an insane amount of people and more ethnic groups than everywhere else in the world. Just go to SA, those guys represent the whole continent, yep. All those other studies that contradict that are all irrelevant because JoradaN is lazy and won't actually look further into the subject so how would he know of more relevant research? You expect him to use critical thinking? So is pretending to be a scholar in an area he has now knowledge in even at a 4th grade level.

But I guess you'll keep digging the hole and continuing changing subjects and ignoring actual flaws in your argument.
 
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You're now asking why should you care about your own argument.

It's not dismissal it's you making comparisons that don't make sense and avoiding the subject. Which is what you did the whole post.

The point is there are based measurements in African countries, and I've explained so many times on HOW that you have not ADDRESSED once. IQ scientists have NOT studies individual groups they have studied "Select" groups some where never studied at all and IQ scientists have in some cases, when they did get SOME of them, equally represented the groups despite population differences.

Everytime i explain this you change the subject and never address it, and often you'll go to SA or Zimbabwe which only proves my point that there's bias in IQ measurements because you can't find more than a few examples of IQ testing that has been done on a ethnic basis outside a few countries. So the fact you have to keep going back to countries like SA is based on the fact you don't and can't find any other data.

So this goes back to the part where you literally don't have an argument and have been avoiding addressing the elephant in the room, biased IQ calculations in most african countries. Not in one other region of the planet are ethnic groups equally represented, not one place on the planet, are countries not separated by regions/states/districts, not one place on the planet are there so many question marks and missing datapoints that have yet to be collected.

I've given you several examples and you continue not to address them falling back on the only data you have because YOU CAN'T FIND ANYTHING ELSE. But won't admit it because your hardheaded. Every time you've said "X was done in other countries" you lied. Because they haven't. You've had no choice but to be dishonest and generalize the continent based on a few countries because that's the only way you can pretend to observers you have an argument.

You bring up ethinic groups ignoring the very examples I gave you and several factors you've omitted only to ignore them and say "what about Israel" once again proven this subject is not only of no interest to you, despite your earlier claim, but you'd rather spread false incomplete information as truth to save face than actual talk about facts.

You ignore the massive ethnic group presence in many countries as well as ethnic groups that were not even part of some of these countries 80 years ago. Like, for example, the Somalies, which they include in many countries IQ examples disproportionately, when in Europe they either never include them at all or separate them. Also they go with the major ethnic groups first, why is a tiny somali ethnic group recently added to a country getting an even share of the pie chart despite being less than 2-1% of the population?

But hey no bias right? Just one of the many examples you know nothing about because you never research, you're lazy, and went with the old IQ claim without actually looking into to how things or measured or why. Which makes it pointless for you to even attempt an argument. it's like arguing me about the effects of certain drugs on the brain when you only have some cliff notes from a biased drunk guy and you specialize in Auto-mechanics. But once again you won't actually respond to anything I'm saying just change the subject again. Or pretend to be dumb.

You'd think all those missing data points you can't find for most African countries might clue a somewhat intelligent person in that maybe something might be off, but eh see in SA there are some lols and...



Yet Blacks with less than 15%-0% European blood constantly do better than the mixed Blacks with higher percentages, and are among the smartest blacks in the country which contradicts your point and go- wait why are you bringing up America again I though we were on Africa? oh wait, you flipped the subject again because you have no argument. Again....But hey you've never put any effort in your argument I'm not surprised. You'd actually have to.. Look into things to do that.




Yep, that one university, in that one country, confirms the whole continent. Even though over 21 countries contradict that. Not just recently, but historically. But hey, if you don't have data points and are a lazy liar you don't need to actually you know, do research on a continent of an insane amount of people and more ethnic groups than everywhere else in the world. Just go to SA, those guys represent the whole continent, yep. All those other studies that contradict that are all irrelevant because JoradaN is lazy and won't actually look further into the subject so how would he know of more relevant research? You expect him to use critical thinking? So is pretending to be a scholar in an area he has now knowledge in even at a 4th grade level.

But I guess you'll keep digging the hole and continuing changing subjects and ignoring actual flaws in your argument.
Where is a source for a single thing you're saying? You post a lot of words to support your argument, but unlike everyone else who has presented ideas in this discussion, you never offer a source.
 
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eot

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I'm not going to respond to all of your posts, but you keep making these definitive, overgeneralized and over simplified statements, it's quite ridiculous.

Africa is already westernized.

How do you think they experienced a huge population growth in the last 50 years? They never had the technology to sustain such numbers before coming in contact with Europe.
Even the idea that Africa is just now modernizing is ridiculous. Africa has had railroads since the 1860s, but a lot of them now lay in ruin after independence.
This is blatantly not true, how are railroads a sign of a modern society? Would Victorian England be considered modern nowadays? I have some friends from Tanzania (which for Africa is just about average in terms of GDP per capita) and I've spent time there, it is not in any way a modern society, it's another world outside a few metropolitan centers, and even those are nothing like the west.

A massive population growth requires a source of food. Africa does not appear to have the actual farming capacity to support themselves. They're getting help from the outside world to stay fed while they still pump out 8 babies per mother.
What about EU fishing fleets fishing the African coasts dry, leaving people unable to support themselves, or the EU (again) subsidizing farmers to such a degree that they can dump their wares on African markets and drive local farmers out of business? It's a complicated situation, you don't seem to have attempted to find any nuance in it.

In response to the continued claims of Japan and South Korea were made superpowers by America, can someone explain to me why the entire world isn't advanced by now?

With the amount of money the U.S and other Western countries donate year after year, where the hell is it all going that each country should have their own NASA space program by now?




It took Japan only 20 years to reach the highest recorded IQ in human history, yet no other (non-Asian) country seems to have caught up with that?




And while China is listed in this map, consider they surpassed most of Africa in the last 50 years, despite being ruled by "oppressive" communism.




How long can we keep supporting these impoverished countries forever? If the excuse is that colonialism is the cause for all the worlds problems, then why do the same colonized countries accept foreign aid instead of working on their own infrastructure? Why is it that the Western world is literally paying for entire nations to maintain themselves?
Because it's fucking complicated. Yes we give foreign aid, that doesn't mean we do it in a smart way, or to the right people, or that foreign aid is particularly useful even when done optimally. Give a crack addict money and he's not going to get a haircut, suit and a job, he's gonna get crack. Give foreign aid to despots and corrupt regimes and they're not going to improve their countries. You're so fucking all over the place man.
 
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JordanN

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You're now asking why should you care about your own argument.

It's not dismissal it's you making comparisons that don't make sense and avoiding the subject. Which is what you did the whole post.
I am not interested in how do 800 ethnic groups disprove the theory that IQ testing is mostly predicative on racial boundries and not any territorial/environment ones.

Afro Republican said:
IQ scientists have NOT studies individual groups they have studied "Select" groups some where never studied at all and IQ scientists have in some cases, when they did get SOME of them, equally represented the groups despite population differences.
This is a lie. You wanted IQ tests done on individual ethnic groups, now you're changing it to mean "select".

https://www.researchgate.net/public...telligence_of_south_sudanese_refugee_children
An early study of the intelligence of the Nilotic people in South Sudan had
been carried out in 1954 by Fahmy (1964). He administered four tests to a sample
of 291 school children aged 7-16 years, whom he described as “one of the
primitive Nilotic Negro tribes” (p. 164) inhabiting the west bank of the White Nile
and belonging to the Shilluk people. The four tests and the mean American-
scaled IQs obtained by the sample were 73.5 on the Goddard Formboard, 76.5
on the Porteus mazes, 94.4 on the Alexander Passalong, and 53.4 on the
Goodenough Draw-a-Man (DAM). The average IQ on the four tests is 74.5. The
norms for these American tests were collected in the 1920s and 1930s and the
Sudanese IQs do not take account of the increases in intelligence of
approximately 3 IQ points a decade that have taken place in the United States
(Flynn, 1984).
They tested three tribes belonging to one major ethnic group. Their average IQ is still not 100. Why do I need to see a 100 more when the results are the same everywhere?

Afro Republican said:
Yet Blacks with less than 15%-0% European blood constantly do better than the mixed Blacks with higher percentages, and are among the smartest blacks in the country which contradicts your point and go- wait why are you bringing up America again I though we were on Africa? oh wait, you flipped the subject again because you have no argument. Again....But hey you've never put any effort in your argument I'm not surprised. You'd actually have to.. Look into things to do that.
You're referring to recent Black immigrants to the U.S right? Those ones represent the best of the best from their population. They're the exception, not the standard.
It's just like Indian immigrants to the U.S. They in fact top the charts in terms of wealth and success, despite their home country (India) being relatively poor in comparison.

So no contradiction.

Afro Republican said:
Yep, that one university, in that one country, confirms the whole continent. Even though over 21 countries contradict that.
There are 21 sub-saharan African countries with higher average IQs than Europeans? I need to see this information please.
 

JordanN

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This is blatantly not true, how are railroads a sign of a modern society? Would Victorian England be considered modern nowadays? I have some friends from Tanzania (which for Africa is just about average in terms of GDP per capita) and I've spent time there, it is not in any way a modern society, it's another world outside a few metropolitan centers, and even those are nothing like the west.
In comparison to Africa? Yes. Hell, the industrial revolution began much earlier.

It is important to realize Europe had already began to see a rise in gdp at this same point. The fact Africa is still struggling to match Victorian Era England should tell us that IQ Testing is very real.




eot said:
What about EU fishing fleets fishing the African coasts dry, leaving people unable to support themselves, or the EU (again) subsidizing farmers to such a degree that they can dump their wares on African markets and drive local farmers out of business? It's a complicated situation, you don't seem to have attempted to find any nuance in it.
Wait what?
First of all, when has any human population depended on fish to not starve? Second, why or how did the EU manage to deplete all the fish in Africa?


eot said:
Because it's fucking complicated. Yes we give foreign aid, that doesn't mean we do it in a smart way, or to the right people, or that foreign aid is particularly useful even when done optimally. Give a crack addict money and he's not going to get a haircut, suit and a job, he's gonna get crack. Give foreign aid to despots and corrupt regimes and they're not going to improve their countries. You're so fucking all over the place man.
And whose fault is that?
And saying it's complicated seems to ignore that in my example (Japan or South Korea) experienced rapid development in a short amount of time.
We gave aid to Zimbabwe for 30 years and nothing changed.

 
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This is a lie. You wanted IQ tests done on individual ethnic groups, now you're changing it to mean "select".
I never changed it, this is another desperate attempt to get off the subject and admit you have no actual info. You have yet to post ethnic groups for several countries, why? becuase they haven't been measured. Again, odd that you can't seem to bring yourself to admit you are missing data on several countries yet will use SA as a generalization on the continent with the most ethnic groups on the planet and IQ's being measured in different ways that has never happened in any other region on the planet. What YOU said was a lie.


I am not interested in how do 800 ethnic groups disprove the theory that IQ testing is mostly predicative on racial boundries and not any territorial/environment ones.
i said in the last post you didn't need to do that, and gave a reason why, but you once again ignore that completely. Please stop debating when you have no argument you're making yourself look like a fool.


You're referring to recent Black immigrants to the U.S right?
No i'm not, but I do see you once again desperately trying to move off the topic of Africa again by making trying to make up something I never said.

I really don't know why you won't admit you don't have anywhere near enough data to make any of the IQ claims you have. The reason why you don't is because the data doesn't exist. So again a smart person would realize that those average IQ's in most African countries are based on doing no actual studies in those regions for IQ or at least fairly and with at the very least the top most popular groups involved in those studies. In some areas there are ZERO studies. So why would a person trying to argue what you are, try and use limited information to generalize a diverse region of many different countries, and say that limited information is all the research that's needed.

Yet even the most racist fools are still looking more into the subject than you are when they actually have an inceitive NOT to do so?

Listen JoradaN just admit you don't have an argument. You don't have any proof to make our broad statement, you can't find any data outside form a few countries, you have ton of missing data, and have to lie and distort controlled studies and expand it to the entire continent to even pretend you have an argument.

1. You can't disprove the bias in IQ measurements.

2. You don't have enough country data to come to any of your conclusions.

3. Most studies don't even take into account the top 10 Ethnic groups and in some cases, 5, In IQ measurements.

4. Point number 3 shows that a large portion of the continent is understudied or nnot studied at all, which means your theory would easily be thrown out of any community researching this topic, and you would as well if it were a different continent.

5. You ignored the Nigerian/Rwanda etc. examples, which had IQ studies lopsided to the weakest groups and often away from the top educational and industrial areas. While also ignoring the impact ethnic groups have and why the studies need to be fair, as i linked before those 3 times.

6. Why would you think any link you posted would be valid across the content with so many data points missing and so many countries/regions having no studies or being understudied? Your own desperation clinging to a few countries, is based on the fact you can't FIND even 15 countries that measure the IQ's fairly by State and/or native Ethnic groups, let alone 20+. Why? Because they don't exist, so you keep clinging to the only data you have....But a smart person would realize that if you don't have data than how can there be enough information to come to any of the conclusions your posting?

8. You also ignore the fact that colonists shifted demographics groups, one example you ignored, many times, the Somali, which are in regions they were not before. You also have the open-border refugee crisis that have poured refugees into many countries over the years that were never part of that country. Oddly enough, if this were about Europe i bet you'd say that such a thing would screw up statistics but since it's Africa who cares right? Ah, see if you said the same about Europe you'd literally say the refugees are fucking up the stats. But hey, being fair all around the world is fine as long as Africa is not done fairly, consistency? What's that?

So many factors that you aren't even considering because as you said yourself, your lazy. Also desperate,

See usually when someone poses an argument based on research, the topic of discussion might actually need to have research done, in-depth, and fairly. Of course, that would require effort. I mean you are arguing about something you don't have data for, nor can find, because it doesn't exist, but will say there's enough data to come to a conclusion.

That's very uh...hmmmm.
 
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We gave aid to Zimbabwe for 30 years and nothing changed.
Because Zimabwe is the entire continent of Africa, let's ignore all those countries objectively doing better than Zimbabwe and generalize the whole continent in this one country in a famine even though there are other countries in Africa not in famine . And also more developed, and also growing much faster. And have had aid be sanctioned off or not have received anywhere near as much.
 

JordanN

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Because Zimabwe is the entire continent of Africa,
No, but it is an example of one that had a head start and given lots of foreign aid that still managed to falter.

Afro Republican said:
let's ignore all those countries objectively doing better than Zimbabwe and generalize the whole continent in this one country in a famine even though there are other countries in Africa not in famine . And also more developed, and also growing much faster. And have had aid be sanctioned off or not have received anywhere near as much.
This really shouldn't be seen as an achievement. Even the countries that do better than it still have some serious issues.




 
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eot

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Wait what?
First of all, when has any human population depended on fish to not starve? Second, why or how did the EU manage to deplete all the fish in Africa?
In Senegal, fish provides 75% of local protein needs and fishing plays an important role in the national economy. In 2002 it was stimated that the fishing industry generates about 100,000 direct jobs for Senegalese nationals, of which more than 90% are in small scale
(artisanal) fishing. Another 600,000 people (15% of the working Senegalese population) are employed in related industries.
“The fisheries agreements with Senegal illustrate the EU fishery policy in West Africa. Since 1979, the EU fishing industry benefited from profitable access to the once-rich Senegalese waters, with few restrictions imposed by either the EU or Senegalese government. After over 15 years of EU-Senegalese ‘cooperation’ the assessment is clearly negative, from both an environmental and social point of view: fish stocks are depleted and the Senegalese artisanal fishery is disrupted.”
subsidies provided to EU vessels that have contributed to structural over-capacity in the EU fishing fleet and the over-exploitation of stocks. License fees paid by the European boat owners account for only one-third or less of the total value of
compensation paid by Brussels in fisheries access agreements. These subsidies have helped EU vessels continue to fish even when the stocks were too low to make it economically profitable. The subsidies also displaces foreign investors and local entrepreneurs,
http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/hdr2005_oli_brown_29.pdf

Now, in a move aimed to put pressure on the developed countries to curb their fleets, community leaders in Joal and across Senegal have warned that overfishing by foreign fleets could lead to piracy and violence on the scale of Somalia, as well as a flood of economic migrants leaving west Africa to find work in Europe.
"Catches are 75% down on 10 years ago," said Samb Ibrahim, manager of Joal's fishing port. "In 2004 we landed 220,000 tonnes, now we catch only 120,000 tonnes year. It's a very serious situation." The port is the biggest in the country, with 1,500 fishermen competing to land declining catches.
Blame for the continuing fall in catches is levelled equally at the giant, foreign-owned trawlers that take up to 300,000 tonnes of fish a year from Senegal's waters, and corrupt local politicians who sell illegal licenses for "pirate" fishing vessels that take an unknown quantity.
Senegal's fishing community will act on foreign fleets if government doesn't
 
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JordanN

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I never changed it, this is another desperate attempt to get off the subject and admit you have no actual info. You have yet to post ethnic groups for several countries, why? becuase they haven't been measured. Again, odd that you can't seem to bring yourself to admit you are missing data on several countries yet will use SA as a generalization on the continent with the most ethnic groups on the planet and IQ's being measured in different ways that has never happened in any other region on the planet. What YOU said was a lie.
What is this referring to?

Afro Republican said:
i said in the last post you didn't need to do that, and gave a reason why, but you once again ignore that completely. Please stop debating when you have no argument you're making yourself look like a fool.
So what is the issue?
Would you feel better if I said multiethnic African countries score lower than other non-black multiethnic societies? Because I would be totally fine saying that.

Afro Republican said:
No i'm not,
Let me rephrase my statement.
It is completely possible for Black Americans to outperform mixed raced or other non-black populations.
But the distribution of Black Americans with that ability will be located at the far end of the bell curve.




Afro Republican said:
So why would a person trying to argue what you are, try and use limited information to generalize a diverse region of many different countries, and say that limited information is all the research that's needed.
I'm reading through some of these studies right now and they appear to address your complaints on sampling. For example regarding how IQ testing was done in the Congo:
http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/fe/LinkedDocuments/lynn2010.pdf

healthy children in the Congo but reject this study on the grounds that it was from an underdeveloped rural area and the test was adapted. Comment: Most of the Congo consists of underdeveloped rural areas, so the sample should be reasonably representative; the authors are confident that the K-ABC is suitable for use with their sample because they write “this measure was especially intended for use with nonverbal and non-English speaking children.” The battery as a whole has “a good record in terms of construct validity when adapted for other cultural groups” (p. 221)
Testing of the Zulu

Lloyd and Pidgeon (1961). WDM assign this sample of Zulu children an IQ of 88.7. Comment: The study reports a Zulu IQ of 86.75 and an IQ of a white South African comparison sample as 103.2. WDM calculate the Zulu IQ in relation to British norms on the assumption that the sample is representative. But the authors state “it was not possible to make a random selection either of children or schools” (p. 146). To overcome this problem, “considerable care was taken to choose schools that would yield samples of children representative of the total population for each racial group”. Hence it is better to calculate the Zulu IQ in relation to the IQ of the matched white sample. In relation to the white South African IQ of 100, the Zulu IQ is 83.5. The average sd for the white and the Zulu samples is 9.35. Adjustment for this reduces the Zulu IQ to 74. Lynn and Owen (1994) gi
I'll report back more findings as I finish reading through it.


Afro Republican said:
Yet even the most racist fools are still looking more into the subject than you are when they actually have an inceitive NOT to do so?
That's cool but I don't see how any of this discredits my original point where I said IQ testing falls on racial lines.

Afro Republican said:
Listen JoradaN just admit you don't have an argument. You don't have any proof to make our broad statement,
There have been IQ tests done on black populations outside of Africa. The results are absolutely the same or of little difference.

Afro Republican said:
8. You also ignore the fact that colonists shifted demographics groups, one example you ignored, many times, the Somali, which are in regions they were not before. You also have the open-border refugee crisis that have poured refugees into many countries over the years that were never part of that country.
How many people got shifted around during and after WW2?


Afro Republican said:
Oddly enough, if this were about Europe i bet you'd say that such a thing would screw up statistics but since it's Africa who cares right?
Only because the racial disparities involves 1 standard deviation in reporting back results.
 
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@JordanN, I asked you a question earlier. Maybe you didn't see it. Maybe you think I am trying to trick you or something. That is not the case.

The question was, "Have you ever heard of the saying 'White Man's Burden'?

It was a belief held by English and Dutch colonizers when dealing with people whom they found beneath them. African and Indian peoples were to be "civilized" by the colonizers. It was a part of what made slavery so easy to justify.

Everything you have written in this thread may be true, but what does it mean if it is? What are the consequences of your dissertation? Americans, in particular, believe in individual exceptionalism. You are getting the push back you rightly deserve because, whether you intend it or not, it feels like you are robbing people of their individuality.

You can predict with 100 % authority the IQ of an individual based on their race? Until you meet the exception that doesn't. Where that individual is, neither of us know. What is the value in this argument? What will it accomplish? A wise person once said, "A fanatic is someone who performs the same task but expects different results."

Think on it, please.
 

JordanN

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@JordanN, I asked you a question earlier. Maybe you didn't see it. Maybe you think I am trying to trick you or something. That is not the case.

The question was, "Have you ever heard of the saying 'White Man's Burden'?

It was a belief held by English and Dutch colonizers when dealing with people whom they found beneath them. African and Indian peoples were to be "civilized" by the colonizers. It was a part of what made slavery so easy to justify.
I disagree with slavery. In relation to IQ testing, I do not see it supporting it either.

Interestingly, guess who were the first people to end slavery? White people.
Also, which society was vastly more wealthy? Countries that practiced slavery, or non-slavery ones?
Answer: Non-slaving owning societies.


Barsinister said:
Everything you have written in this thread may be true, but what does it mean if it is? What are the consequences of your dissertation? Americans, in particular, believe in individual exceptionalism. You are getting the push back you rightly deserve because, whether you intend it or not, it feels like you are robbing people of their individuality.
Well, I would like to see this information go more mainstream. I want to see the taboo ended and recognize this as a proper science no different from teaching gravity or evolution.

IQ Testing should not rob individual exceptionalism. I posted this chart at the top of the page that shows White people are not even the most successful people in America. But do White Americans care?
No, they will continue doing what they've done for hundreds of years.






Barsinister said:
You can predict with 100 % authority the IQ of an individual based on their race? Until you meet the exception that doesn't. Where that individual is, neither of us know. What is the value in this argument? What will it accomplish? A wise person once said, "A fanatic is someone who performs the same task but expects different results."

Think on it, please.
It's not about looking at peoples skin color and determining a number off that. I don't believe that.

But science has shown that when you start sampling for large groups of people, you will always end up with a pattern that falls on racial lines. As Nixon pointed out, this information plays a pivotal part in domestic and foreign policy.

The fact that more people don't know more about this is what I'm concerned about.
 
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@JordanN, I asked you a question earlier. Maybe you didn't see it. Maybe you think I am trying to trick you or something. That is not the case.

The question was, "Have you ever heard of the saying 'White Man's Burden'?

It was a belief held by English and Dutch colonizers when dealing with people whom they found beneath them. African and Indian peoples were to be "civilized" by the colonizers. It was a part of what made slavery so easy to justify.

Everything you have written in this thread may be true, but what does it mean if it is? What are the consequences of your dissertation? Americans, in particular, believe in individual exceptionalism. You are getting the push back you rightly deserve because, whether you intend it or not, it feels like you are robbing people of their individuality.

You can predict with 100 % authority the IQ of an individual based on their race? Until you meet the exception that doesn't. Where that individual is, neither of us know. What is the value in this argument? What will it accomplish? A wise person once said, "A fanatic is someone who performs the same task but expects different results."

Think on it, please.
I think JordanN has been arguing there are differences in IQ exist among the various racial groups and that the differences may be the result of genetic factors more so than environment. He has been presenting information that support his premise that nations/continents with higher average IQ tend to be much more prosperous, free, and peaceful.

He is basically saying out loud what most people tend to intuitively know. Higher IQ nations like the Norway, Japan, Australia are economically/technologically successful while lower IQ countries like Haiti, Somalia, Rwanda are not.
 
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OK, I understand what the goal is. I will rephrase it now.

The goal is that spreading this information will help us deal with each other in ways that are to our mutual benefit.

But according to you, one group doesn't have the means to even understand the social contract. Now what? Do we ignore the individual wants for a greater good? It all seems too "Brave New World" to me to be comfortable.

Do we just take care of those groups who are unable to care for themselves? Again, it seems to be robbing an individual of their rights.

What are the ethics of it all, is what I want to know? Where does all of this lead us.

Incidentally, I did read "The Bell Curve" back in the middle nineties. I didn't know what good it was for back then, either. The conclusion was basically that the world needs janitors too. Let an individual keep his dignity, if he has a mind to.

Edit:

@weltalldx, I did see your response, and I understand "what" his goal is. I just don't understand the "why".
 
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JordanN

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OK, I understand what the goal is. I will rephrase it now.

The goal is that spreading this information will help us deal with each other in ways that are to our mutual benefit.

But according to you, one group doesn't have the means to even understand the social contract. Now what? Do we ignore the individual wants for a greater good? It all seems too "Brave New World" to me to be comfortable.

Do we just take care of those groups who are unable to care for themselves? Again, it seems to be robbing an individual of their rights.

What are the ethics of it all, is what I want to know? Where does all of this lead us.

Incidentally, I did read "The Bell Curve" back in the middle nineties. I didn't know what good it was for back then, either. The conclusion was basically that the world needs janitors too. Let an individual keep his dignity, if he has a mind to.

Edit:

@weltalldx, I did see your response, and I understand "what" his goal is. I just don't understand the "why".

I think the world in the 1990s had a better mindset.

In fact, diversity and multiculturalism still existed. We had movies like Space Jam or The Matrix, where clearly non-white actors were front and center but everyone had a fun time.

It's everything that came after that I feel is going to be an issue in the future. What is currently happening to Europe & North America just doesn't feel normal...

IQ testing is just one part of what we can expect to happen when society changes too much.
 
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@Barsinister

He's probably concerned that the United states is ranked pretty low on most world IQ ranking charts because we are taking in more and more people who are not the best and brightness. The future average IQ of the United States may be going down even lower if we look at current academic trends.

I would be pretty concerned too when the majority of black and brown students are horrible in math and hard sciences and our leaders are not even trying to admit to this very real problem and hand wave it as a racism/social injustice issue rather than the more much difficult conversation of charter/private schools.
 
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I think the world in the 1990s had a better mindset.

In fact, diversity and multiculturalism still existed. We had movies like Space Jam or The Matrix, where clearly non-white actors front and center but everyone had a fun time.

It's everything that came after that I feel is going to be an issue in the future. What is currently happening to Europe & North America just doesn't feel normal...
If you were brought up on American ideals, that is good! But the problems you feel now do not lie in IQ, I don't think. It is a corruption of those very ideals you were brought up on. Stoicism is a dirty word. Victims are celebrated, so everybody needs to be one. Or better yet, everybody needs to be so hyper individualistic that nobody can find a common ground. "You can't understand me because you didn't live my life," is a common refrain.

I hear sayings like "diversity is a strength" and it doesn't seem too much different than "War is Peace", "Freedom is Slavery", and "Ignorance is Strength". Those words are from a novel I have read too many times. You feel the same as Winston from that novel. I feel that way too, at times. Like there was sometime in some forgotten past where people were allowed to just live their lives without somebody telling them what to think and how to think it. Maybe some pioneer in the 1800's headed west felt that way, I don't know.

I just hate to see you put so much effort into something that maybe that effort could be put to a better use. You are a smart individual, nobody can deny it. Instead of looking for what makes us humans different, let's find the things that make us the same.

A work friend took me to see "The Matrix". At the time, I only watched old black and white movies. I had no idea what I was going to see. I was blown away by it at the time. It made me think about life in a different way. Kinda like "Total Recall" did earlier.

Edit: Again, @weltalldx, I see what you are writing. I don't like to double post, so I will add my thoughts here. Have you ever read "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley? Babies are born in tubes. They are created differently in those tubes depending on what work they will be doing as adults. Alphas and Betas and Deltas and Gammas. Gammas being almost inhuman. Babies conditioned to not appreciate books and natural beauty. Everyone robbed of their individuality in an effort to maintain a society of consumption.

I think about things like that book when I read what you wrote. What is the solution, do you think?
 
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If you were brought up on American ideals, that is good! But the problems you feel now do not lie in IQ, I don't think. It is a corruption of those very ideals you were brought up on. Stoicism is a dirty word. Victims are celebrated, so everybody needs to be one. Or better yet, everybody needs to be so hyper individualistic that nobody can find a common ground. "You can't understand me because you didn't live my life," is a common refrain.

I hear sayings like "diversity is a strength" and it doesn't seem too much different than "War is Peace", "Freedom is Slavery", and "Ignorance is Strength". Those words are from a novel I have read too many times. You feel the same as Winston from that novel. I feel that way too, at times. Like there was sometime in some forgotten past where people were allowed to just live their lives without somebody telling them what to think and how to think it. Maybe some pioneer in the 1800's headed west felt that way, I don't know.

I just hate to see you put so much effort into something that maybe that effort could be put to a better use. You are a smart individual, nobody can deny it. Instead of looking for what makes us humans different, let's find the things that make us the same.

A work friend took me to see "The Matrix". At the time, I only watched old black and white movies. I had no idea what I was going to see. I was blown away by it at the time. It made me think about life in a different way. Kinda like "Total Recall" did earlier.

Edit: Again, @weltalldx, I see what you are writing. I don't like to double post, so I will add my thoughts here. Have you ever read "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley? Babies are born in tubes. They are created differently in those tubes depending on what work they will be doing as adults. Alphas and Betas and Deltas and Gammas. Gammas being almost inhuman. Babies conditioned to not appreciate books and natural beauty. Everyone robbed of their individuality in an effort to maintain a society of consumption.

I think about things like that book when I read what you wrote. What is the solution, do you think?
Well, we have to end dishonest mass media for one. And slow down the mast migrations, stop terrorism and world hunger/suffering. We have to provide food and shelter for the truly needy, and oppose radical/extremist , while also being tough on crime. We have to encourage a return to traditional hard work and education. Most importantly, we have to promote meritocracy and less envy in young people.
 
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Well, we have to end dishonest mass media for one. And slow down the mast migrations, stop terrorism and world hunger/suffering. We have to provide food and shelter for the truly needy, and oppose radical/extremist , while also being tough on crime. We have to encourage a return to traditional hard work and education. Most importantly, we have to promote meritocracy and less envy in young people.
I can almost promise you we can't do any of those things. If we really tried to do them, we would all end up as slaves. What's the saying, "Power abhors a vacuum"? The only power we hold is the power over ourselves as individuals. And even that, at times, I question. How many hours do you spend at work a day in order to just take care of yourself and your family, if you have one?

What if we all just gave a dollar to the truly needy? Well, what if I don't want to? Are you going to force me? I think of coercion in these terms:

Government mandates that all haircuts must be five dollars from now on. I think that I could do it for four and advertise it. At first, I may receive a cease and desist letter from the department of haircuts. I ignore those and continue to charge four. My license to cut hair is revoked and now I can no longer have a shop to provide my service. I decide to take it underground and cut hair black market style. If I am found out, how long until government agents are putting a gun in my face and setting me in jail? Or, if I don't go quietly, shooting me?

All of that to say that the only way you could do any of the things on your list is to use a gun and force people to do it. Jesus said we would always have the poor, maybe those were the terms that he meant it?
 

JordanN

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Edit: Again, @weltalldx, I see what you are writing. I don't like to double post, so I will add my thoughts here. Have you ever read "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley? Babies are born in tubes. They are created differently in those tubes depending on what work they will be doing as adults. Alphas and Betas and Deltas and Gammas. Gammas being almost inhuman. Babies conditioned to not appreciate books and natural beauty. Everyone robbed of their individuality in an effort to maintain a society of consumption.

I think about things like that book when I read what you wrote. What is the solution, do you think?
While I believe in IQ Testing, I do not believe this information requires us to chase after an unrealistic standard or morph our bodies so no "low iq" person is born.

I believe what we should be doing is trying to preserve "individual" cultures,.

I've said many times Japan has higher IQ than Europe, but there is no shame in Europe having a completely different culture than Japan.
 

eot

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Do you believe overfishing is an issue for just Africa?

What do you believe other countries would do if they were in this situation?
No. Look, you're making a lot of exaggerated claims in this thread, that all substantiate your view that the problems of an entire continent are self imposed, or at least not caused externally. Your view is over simplified and suggest that you haven't really looked into these issues at all, the Senegalese fishing situation is just one example how the local population is strongly affected by an external factor outside their control. That doesn't mean there aren't things African countries can and should do to get ahead, but you don't seem interested in getting to the bottom of the issue, you're just using it to further your opinion.

I'd recommend you this book (which btw is mostly about internal reform, so you might like it):
Emerging Africa: How the Global Economy's 'Last Frontier' Can Prosper and Matter
 
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