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The dissonance in RDR stemming from killing so many people is really getting to me

RDR (and GTA4, for that matter) is a far better example. Marston is written to be taken seriously. You're supposed to think that he's a great guy at heart, who is genuinely remorseful for his criminal past. He's not a gleeful treasure hunter like Drake and Co.

Marston is a retired killer who has had his family taken away, during a particularly violent and bloody time in history where life is near meaningless and family is everything. You do the math :P

It wouldn't be so bad if the story wasn't so focused on, y'know, REDEMPTION.

Redemption which he doesn't get.
 
The complete idiocy of John Marsden bothered me more than the killing. The only people outside of missions that I killed were raiders and the occasional guy attacking a prostitute in an alleyway.

What bothered me moreso was how everyone kept obviously stringing John along for their own ends, and he barely comments on it. And it wasn't even for interesting shit. Why am I going on three fucking racing missions for this scumbag snake oil salesman? Why am I killing countless rebels and countless soldiers in Mexico, and no one on either side seems pissed? Why the fuck isn't John Marsden, this convicted outlaw desperate to see his family, not shoving his six-shooter down every asshole's throat, demanding that they stop fucking around and just give him what he wants?!

RDR was mechanically sound, but its pacing and writing pissed me right-the-fuck-off. For a GOTY contender, its storytelling and overall narrative dissonance was pretty fucking bad.

I liked its three-act story that it tried to tell, but man, did it ever do it poorly. Hell, even relatively early on when
Ms. Mcfarlane... uhh... blondle girl, who John has some pretty obvious sexual tension with, gets captured? I thought it was going to be this pretty emotionally-driven rescue mission or something. Instead, he unties her, and she's like "Well, it's about time." "Gee, sorry Miss Mcfarlane."... Wow. Really selling the desperation of the situation guys. Good job.


Why does it seem that Rockstar games only get analyzed like this? I didn't hear anyone going in depth about throwing random people off of roofs in Sleeping Dogs.

Because if Rockstar games keep trying to take themselves seriously (and for some reason, they do), they should expect to be critiqued seriously.
 
While he doesn't get redemption from the law, i think he gets his own personal redemption, which is what he was looking for.

In what respect? He was involved with the murder of his old friends, sacrificed his integrity by working for THE MAN, and, for all his efforts, his son follows in his bloody footsteps.

EDIT: Ha... these look like government wartime records...
 
I only had a problem killing innocents in RDR. The wild west setting and Marsden's past gave me no problem killing fools I felt deserved it.
 
perhaps one of the things to take away from this is that shooting a thousand people in slow motion doesn't really lend itself to serious character-driven drama
 
Well thanks OP. You inspired me to play through RDR again. I wanted to see how the game held up since I think it's the game of the generation but I haven't touched it since the first play through.

On starting - yech - doesn't look as good as I remembered. But the skyboxes are still amazing and I still love the way the scenery unfolds as you work your way through different landscapes and elevations.

Riding the horse is somehow better than I remember. They really nail that. It doesn't feel like your just driving a car that looks like a horse. I also love the way you can just hold down the button to follow another character and match their speed.

Shooting still feels good, if incredibly easy. One of those tutorial missions where you shoot a bunch of coyotes - I think I killed them all with separate shots in about 2 seconds without missing.

One thing I noticed is that there are these allusions to what the game is going to be about on the opening train ride cinematic, but those themes (religion, American Indians, class issues, corruption) aren't really explored in the game. As I watched that opening I remembered seeing it the first time and thinking the game was going to be really deep and touch on all that stuff, but its pretty absent in the rest of the game. Kind of weird actually that the things the people are talking about are never really touched on again - it certainly feels like foreshadowing.

The voice acting and cut scenes are great. I love the Marshall character and wish he were a bigger part of the game.

So far (about 2 hours in) I haven't changed my mind. Such an amazing achievement and one of my favorite games of all time. I think it does a better job at handling the kind of dissonance you are talking about that any other R* game, and most other video games.

Edit: and holy shit I only had one playthrough and no multiplayer and the last save (from 2010) said over 100 hours. I didn't even 100% the game - 89%.
 
perhaps one of the things to take away from this is that shooting a thousand people in slow motion doesn't really lend itself to serious character-driven drama

That's really the long and the short of it. The mechanics are absurd, which is totally fine, lots of games are absurd as a rule and I love absurdity just generally in nearly in all its forms. The problem is that the narrative is not absurd, it's serious. Thus you have: dissonance.

It only bugged me a little bit in RDR, I guess because I was able to kind of suspend my disbelief that this dude in this lawless west may have somehow been able to kill a billion people and get away with it. GTA IV is just patently absurd top to bottom.
 
What bothered me moreso was how everyone kept obviously stringing John along for their own ends, and he barely comments on it. And it wasn't even for interesting shit. Why am I going on three fucking racing missions for this scumbag snake oil salesman? Why am I killing countless rebels and countless soldiers in Mexico, and no one on either side seems pissed? Why the fuck isn't John Marsden, this convicted outlaw desperate to see his family, not shoving his six-shooter down every asshole's throat, demanding that they stop fucking around and just give him what he wants?!

I couldn't have said it better. Most of the guys Marston is doing dirty-work for are intimidated by him. Why is he just going along with their bullshit, especially when he's trying to turn over a new leaf?

Because if Rockstar games keep trying to take themselves seriously (and for some reason, they do), they should expect to be critiqued seriously.

Exactly. It's not gamers trying to be arty and intellectual (as some here are implying), it's game developers. If RDR was over-the-top ridiculousness like Django Unchained, I wouldn't have an issue.

That said, I'm still not sure why Uncharted gets the bulk of the criticism. Anyone want to fill me in? I've played UC2, and was only bothered by Drake (initially) being a self-absorbed jerk in that I found it hard to empathize with him, not because of ludonarrative dissonance.
 
What bothered me moreso was how everyone kept obviously stringing John along for their own ends, and he barely comments on it.
Getting "strung along" is the most overused plot device in Rockstar open world games. It happens in practically all GTA games. I guess they got lazy regarding that.
 
The same things happen to almost any "action" movie, Star Wars, Rambo, Die Hard, you name it. You're going to murder a lot of bad guys, but "it doesn't matter" because you don't know nothing about them, and that's why it's easy to kill them.

How many Storm Troppers Luke killed? A LOT.

And I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying that kind of "behavior" is normal in the medium. You're not supposed to think about the bad guys, about their families and stuff. They are "bad", and kill them is "justified".
 
Some of you have a big problem with playing the wrong games. If killing shit might get to you...you might not want to play a game where a big part of it is killing shit.
 
The same things happen to almost any "action" movie, Star Wars, Rambo, Die Hard, you name it. You're going to murder a lot of bad guys, but "it doesn't matter" because you don't know nothing about them, and that's why it's easy to kill them.

How many Storm Troppers Luke killed? A LOT.

And I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying that kind of "behavior" is normal in the medium. You're not supposed to think about the bad guys, about their families and stuff. They are "bad", and kill them is "justified".

Space war and space magic aren't quite the same as "we're trying to sell a grounded spaghetti Western..."
 
If you take out what I assume (haven't played RDR) is one of the most fun parts of the game in order to better serve the story and realism of the game, how likely are you to be able to fill that void with something equally as enjoyable? At what point have you whittled down the interactivity of the game to where you might as well just watch a TV show or a movie instead? It would be great if someone could come along and convincingly marry engaging mechanics with a believable story and characters but I can't think of anyone who has come remotely close. For now most games are better off being video games first and interactive fiction second.
There are definitely games who came close. Shadow of the Colossus comes to mind. Gameplay and narrative perfectly complement each other in that game.

Some of you have a big problem with playing the wrong games. If killing shit might get to you...you might not want to play a game where a big part of it is killing shit.
Another one who misses the point entirely.

You think RDR wasn't over the top?
No, just as GTA4 wasn't over-the-top in the same way as Saints Row 3 was. The narrative of the latter game is more suited to its gameplay. That is why the feeling of dissonance isn't really as noticeable in those games (Saints Row, Sleeping Dogs etc)

The voice acting and cut scenes are great. I love the Marshall character and wish he were a bigger part of the game.
Agreed. The Marshall is fucking great. That voice work, that epic beard design... I almost adore the cutscenes with him, particularly the first one.
 
Are people this dense? Do they really have no attention span in a 40+ hour single player game to not notice over the span of 5 years?

Outside of story related missions, you kill NO ONE in GTAIV in free roam mode when gunning down people.
Shoot someone down & you will see that they are in fact NOT dead.
Their health meter will be gone & will roll around in agony & moan on the floor. A lot of times they will get up & slowly hobble away.

Basically the equivalent of Gears of War 'down, but not out'.

To full kill them, you have to literally go up to them when they are withering in pain on the floor & execute them after you fully depleted their health & they are absolutely no longer a threat to you.

I never got how people thought that Niko was a mass murder in free roam when the story was trying to make him sympathetic, without actually noticing this very specific game design.
 
Space war and space magic aren't quite the same as "we're trying to sell a grounded spaghetti Western..."

That, right there, is the very definition of an oxymoron.

No, just as GTA4 wasn't over-the-top in the same way as Saints Row 3 was. The narrative of the latter game is more suited to its gameplay. That is why the feeling of dissonance isn't really as noticeable in those games (Saints Row, Sleeping Dogs etc)

Just because GTAIV isn't as OTT compared to something else, doesn't mean it's not OTT on its own merits. Same with RDR.
 
The same things happen to almost any "action" movie, Star Wars, Rambo, Die Hard, you name it. You're going to murder a lot of bad guys, but "it doesn't matter" because you don't know nothing about them, and that's why it's easy to kill them.

Wait, what? You think RDR and GTAIV, with all its ruminations about crime and violence, is comparable to popcorn action movies? Come on, you're being intellectually dishonest. It's clear as day that Rockstar were aspiring to be "Oscar worthy", as IGN put it.
 
Not necessarily the act itself, but more in that the setting and aesthetics being what they are combined with Rockstar's insistence on creating such a believable and well-crafted world really hams everything up. I could suspend my disbelief enough to get by in GTA because GTA is set in a sort of effigy of modern cities, so killing 20 dudes in a sea of effectively (and more importantly, narratively) millions of people feels like a really small drop in the pond whereas comparatively in RDR I'm roughly 1/3 through the game (just started Mexico) and I've killed over 200 people. 200. In an effective sea of what, 3-5 thousand people? If this goes on I imagine I'll have committed genocide by games end! Needless flippant discourse aside, It's getting to the point of being very damaging to the immersion in the game, and undermining R*'s outstanding recreation of the american frontier of the early 20th century.

I understand why they have you killing loads of people for the plot's sake (spaghetti westerns didn't have to fill up what amounts to a 30 hour plot, lol) and for gameplay reasons, but I feel as if they could have played around with perception more--and ffs also just flat minimizing death dealt period (going from mass quantity killing of redshirts + small quantity impactful killing to dealing with less redshirts and more killing of impact targets would do wonders without really damaging what R* is doing with the game too badly)--in order to skew the raw numbers of death dealt out by marston. Stuff like instead of killing 20-30 wagons-worth of baddies in a chase scene (
seriously R* that shit was just lazy in that runaway doctor mission, 'cmon you're better than that
) you could have 10 recurring wagons that simply get damaged in numerous ways throughout the chase only to inevitably give up once you hit town.

Sorry if all this seems like inane rambling, but after playing this and Tomb Raider--which pulled the same shit with much, much less plot justification--back to back I had to get this off my chest.

But yeah. At Mexico. Am I suddenly going to start hating the game like most of the internet seems to imply I'm about to >.>?

Wow, this is exactly why I stopped playing. I couldn't handle the dissonance. The thinking with Marsten going around saying "Trying to do pennance m'amm. I did a lot of things I'm not proud of. I KILLED A MAN!!" Then going to a gold mine and then kill like 30 guys in that mission alone. It just got to the point where it was too silly to continue that belief.
 
Wait, what? You think RDR and GTAIV, with all its ruminations about crime and violence, is comparable to popcorn action movies? Come on, you're being intellectually dishonest. It's clear as day that Rockstar were aspiring to be "Oscar worthy", as IGN put it.

Best Supporting Actor goes to:

180px-BrucieKibbutz-GTAIV.jpg


Mr Bullshark Testosterone!
 
Wait, what? You think RDR and GTAIV, with all its ruminations about crime and violence, is comparable to popcorn action movies? Come on, you're being intellectually dishonest. It's clear as day that Rockstar were aspiring to be "Oscar worthy", as IGN put it.

I think you're buying into the hype more than the reality of it. There's nothing in these games that would be out of place in a typical R-rated action movie.
 
I enjoyed this game but the sheer hordes of enemies you gun down is ridiculous; that's the way of the modern shooter for you unfortunately.

If there was an option going forward in games like these to halve the numbers of enemies but maybe make them a little tougher or a little smarter, I'd take it.
 
That, right there, is the very definition of an oxymoron

How? Spaghetti westerns, which were made on the cheap by Italian directors, thematically explored western archetypes (which were often an over-exaggeration of what was really only a short period around of 10 years) from a morally gray perspective. RDR is very much about that.

It's like when people say the Dark Knight is grounded. Yeah, it's still dealing with conceptually crazy things but it's doing everything in its power to sell it with a level of real-world honesty and elaboration. Atleast more than something as "popcorny" as Star Wars.
 
This is off-topic but I didn't want to bump an old thread: I want to replay RDR. I completed the campaign years ago.

Is there a "new game+" feature or do I have to start from scratch?
 
There's one massive flaw in your argument OP.

IT'S A VIDEO GAME!
Dude, people have already posted equally short-sighted comments. No need repeat that line over and over again. Believe it or not: some people don't switch off their brains when playing video games and think that they can be more than "shootin' bad guys". If you're not one of those, just ignore the thread.

You are over analysing it.
No, he doesn't.
 
Just like the game itself, it'd be so much better with less of it. Cut out the fat. Cut out the random number-filling slaughter.

It's sad because the narrative beats of both the beginning and the end are so good, but you have to slog through an interminable number of wacky houser NPCs (and action and side missions that have no real consequence to you or the world) to get to them.
 
The complete idiocy of John Marsden bothered me more than the killing. The only people outside of missions that I killed were raiders and the occasional guy attacking a prostitute in an alleyway.

What bothered me moreso was how everyone kept obviously stringing John along for their own ends, and he barely comments on it. And it wasn't even for interesting shit. Why am I going on three fucking racing missions for this scumbag snake oil salesman? Why am I killing countless rebels and countless soldiers in Mexico, and no one on either side seems pissed? Why the fuck isn't John Marsden, this convicted outlaw desperate to see his family, not shoving his six-shooter down every asshole's throat, demanding that they stop fucking around and just give him what he wants?!

RDR was mechanically sound, but its pacing and writing pissed me right-the-fuck-off. For a GOTY contender, its storytelling and overall narrative dissonance was pretty fucking bad.

I liked its three-act story that it tried to tell, but man, did it ever do it poorly. Hell, even relatively early on when
Ms. Mcfarlane... uhh... blondle girl, who John has some pretty obvious sexual tension with, gets captured? I thought it was going to be this pretty emotionally-driven rescue mission or something. Instead, he unties her, and she's like "Well, it's about time." "Gee, sorry Miss Mcfarlane."... Wow. Really selling the desperation of the situation guys. Good job.


Well said. I found Marston a really frustrating character by the end.

Also decided to start a new playthrough. (Last save was from 2010)

OT: Kinda feel like buying the GOTY edition though to get some of the SP DLC. Never bought the Undead Nightmare DLC.

This is off-topic but I didn't want to bump an old thread: I want to replay RDR. I completed the campaign years ago.

Is there a "new game+" feature or do I have to start from scratch?
No NG+. Have to start from scratch. Game limits you to only 3 manual save files, too.

(you can replay every mission from the Stats/Missions menu of your last playthrough if you don't want to start again.
 
One my first playthrough I didn't kill a single citizen. I don't know, I just don't see what the issue is with killing off the bad guys that tie in to the plot. Unless it gets excessive, then there's really nothing that made it stand out to me.
 
@ op : need those minigun parts (for something you could just do with dead eye) better kill 200 innocent miners!

I'm playin thru it again and the story is a fuckin chore the second time thru. It was the first as well just not as bad understandably. Wats sad to me is the game wants you to be in the world for 30 or so hours so they pad all these cinemas and sidetracking. Where as if the game was designed differentlly I'd gladly stay in the world for 100 or more hours. Give me choice, let me make my own story. I'm tired of the Rockstar formula, go here wach movie, kill guys, im tired of canned cinemas. You cant do more storytelling in the engine? To be fair theres the horse rides watnot with the charcters, but those are just movies where u hold A. Let me have a farm, let me hire some guys to build my house. Let me have hunger and need sleep. Let me have some awesome fishing. Maybe my wife I chose gets sick and I need to go to Mexico to find some rare herbs, maybe then Im stuck in the middle of the war down there and choose wat to do. Just stealth by for my herbs or help one side or the other. I could go on for a long time so I'll just stop and say its a shame such an amazing world and great mechanics and animal a.i. kind of goes to waste for me. Still a 9/10 and awesome game, but it could be much more.
 
I understand what the OP means. I guess Uncharted is the main example of this I've seen mentioned.

It's not uncommon to see story and gameplay created in separate vacuums when it comes to games. It's kind of like two people making two different things and putting them together.

They don't fit, but you're expected to make up for that shortcoming by employing suspension of disbelief/ignoring inconsistencies.

I think it really deserves praise when games manage to combine the two so there is no dissonance and the story/gameplay flows together.
 
I think it was the scene where you're
floating down the river on a raft while what seems like hundreds of Mexican soldiers come out of nowhere to snipe at you from the shoreline
that really got to me. It's absurd and would be incredibly unbelievable in any western movie. Now you may be thinking something like, 'But Neuromancer, my good chap, this is a game not a movie.'

The problem is a) in so many other respects it tries to be so very movie like and, more importantly, b) for me it just stopped being a fun game around a certain point only because I had to shoot quite so many dudes. There were, at the end of the day, too many dudes to have to shoot. I reached my dude shooting limit; and yet, the game demanded that I shoot more dudes.
 
Some of you have a big problem with playing the wrong games. If killing shit might get to you...you might not want to play a game where a big part of it is killing shit.

It's got nothing to do with the fact that you kill people. It's that the game presents itself in a very story orientated way and makes it clear that you a playing a character that used to be an outlaw, but is trying to get over that now. Then has him commit massacres without much of a justification. Fine if your game's Duke Nukem, but this clearly sets itself up to be anything but that.
 
Murders are far higher per 100,000 people in American cities today than they were in the Old West. For instance, there were no homicides on record in Abilene (TX) in 1869 or 1870, and it was supposedly one of the wildest towns in the old west.

RDR sought to recreate the atmosphere of Wild West films, which it did wonderfully and shouldn't have to apologize for. It's just a reflection of how our culture has been trained to think about the wild west, which is largely a papering over of history to excuse the real cause of the violence, which was the US Government's genocidal policies towards the American Indians of the Plains.

http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=803
 
Best Supporting Actor goes to:

180px-BrucieKibbutz-GTAIV.jpg


Mr Bullshark Testosterone!

Who was one of the best characters in the game because it was good satire. Nico the poor immigrant war-veteran trying to work his way up in dog-eat-dog America, not so much. That was earnest, and dead serious.

I love how some people are flat-out saying "bro you're thinking too much." Which is fine for Contra, Saints Row, Gears of War, Mario, Megaman and countless other titles where story is either an afterthought or is purposefully bad.

If you honestly think that GTAIV and RDR were only aspiring to be mindless action fare, I don't know what to tell you. The introductory cutscenes alone tell a very different story. The way journalists and critics analyze these two games tells a different story. These games aspired to be taken seriously, and that's what several of us are trying to do.

From Dan Houser himself:
Dan Houser said:
One of our big goals is consistency across the game - so that dialogue, character design, physics, music, and the world itself all feel integrated and part of a large hole(sic), so during the time the player spends in that world, they feel immersed in a consistent experience, if that makes any sense.

...

With Red Dead Redemption, we really wanted to make a big, epic game, and as we looked into what was interesting to us was the difference between the myths of the west and the grungier and nastier reality - how many people hid behind myths and legends to justify horrifying brutality.

Source
 
Why does it seem that Rockstar games only get analyzed like this? I didn't hear anyone going in depth about throwing random people off of roofs in Sleeping Dogs.

Sleeping Dogs can be pretty bad about it too. Like the missions where you're escorting some no-name bum of an ally who's being harassed by a rival Triad, who then send literally 50 guys to their deaths chasing you on motorcycles while you gun them down one at a time. Wei's gang always seems like a group of <10 dudes, but somehow they hold their own against a Triad who has hundreds of totally disposable foot soldiers who are willing to run in and die for the most trivial causes.
 
I think you see a lot of that because they are partially trying to ape movies and partially because it's really easy to just throw random enemies at the player regardless of how little sense it makes. Since it's known that people are going to ignore dissonance already there's little incentive to create something that's more intelligent or thought out.
 
Why does it seem that Rockstar games only get analyzed like this? I didn't hear anyone going in depth about throwing random people off of roofs in Sleeping Dogs.

I think more and more games are being analyzed like this. Bioshock Infinite, Tomb Raider, Uncharted. More and more people are asking why they're shooting so much.

As long as developers do a good job of explaining why all the killing is justified or have the character be somehow affected by it all then people are pretty much ok with it. It's when it stops making sense that everyone starts dropping the all popular "ludonarrative dissonance". I mean if you're going to spend so much time on this detailed story you mas as well go all the way with it. Not addressing that seems lazy to me.

There's one massive flaw in your argument OP.

IT'S A VIDEO GAME!

You are over analysing it.

I don't know. If these developers want to put so much story into these games then we're kind of forced to over analyze these things. This can almost be compared to the transformers movies. I mean when you take a step back and look at them, the autobots were really insane in the last two films. Optimus was going from waxing poetic about peace to ripping peoples faces apart. They also ripped a decepticon apart limb by limb toward the end. It was a bit much.

It's hard to ignore that kind of disconnect especially if I'm meant to connect with that character in some way which is what VIDEO GAMES like to ask of us often times.
 
I agree with you OP, near the end of the game I felt like every single mission or quest I did involved killing large groups of people, and by the game's end I had no empathy for the main character, even though I felt like the game was telling me I should feel something.

I had fun with the game; the horse action is the best to date - but when people say it has one of the best gaming stories, I just remember that I couldn't take it seriously. Maybe if the game only allowed you to play a quarter of the main plot missions and nothing else...
 
Some of you have a big problem with playing the wrong games. If killing shit might get to you...you might not want to play a game where a big part of it is killing shit.

"Killing shit," itself isn't the problem. The impact of killing being diminished &#8212; emotionally and mechanically &#8212; in games that are not about shooting/fighting at their core is the problem.

You see wave-based combat in games have a setting/style which suggests the developers originally wanted to focus on exploration, world-building, Etc. If the final game actually is centered on killing, said killing is low-impact and incongruous with the game's theme or setting. Fighting/killing hundreds of people &#8212; even in games in which narrative beats revolve around individual deaths &#8212; is so common in all major releases that there's a large portion of the gaming community that accepts this gameplay as being appropriate in games it's arguably out of place or overdone.

Ted Ken Levine mentioned in an interview that they had to shift focus more to Bioshock Infinite's combat during development, suggesting that combat wouldn't be as prominent a gameplay loop as it is in the final game. Considering the circumstances in the game, killing is not out of place. However, the game clearly wants me to care when a major character dies or enemy is defeated, yet after seeing so many die so easily by their own hands, those "important," deaths are cheapened, as are the hundreds caused by the player. Worse yet, the main story beats in most games of this type outright ignore the player's actions, allowing said actions to feel even less impactful.

From a purely mechanical view, killing hundreds of quickly dispatched enemies is a simple way of garnering engagement for the player, but not necessarily the most appropriate. Games like RDR, GTAIV, Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite feature mortal main characters. They can all take all manner of deadly attacks that would mean instant death in one of these game's cutscenes and they also kill literally hundreds of enemies who are, canonically, as mortal as they are.

The further into the above games you go, the less likely you're able to recall individual moments of combat or individual kills. Rather than each kill being an intense encounter or distinct victory, it's just filler. Each of these games too frequently feature mass battles and each enemy is so braindead and easily dispatched that combat is only interesting/challenging when there are dozens of them.

What OP, Bedlam and others in this thread are trying to figure out is a way for games to make killing meaningful in games. That doesn't mean that all games should have only four enemies in a game that each put up as good as fight as the player and each leaves the player remorseful/introspective. However, if a developer wanted to make a game like that, there should be a feasible way for them to accomplish that and people shouldn't automatically think there's something wrong with the game for having little killing.

Parts of Max Payne 3, and Kane and Lynch 2, have fights that I felt were appropriately graphic and difficult, relative the game's world, game mechanics and story. There's a shit-ton of killing in those games, yet there were only a few parts where it felt incongruous and forgettable (on either a small-scale/moment-to-moment basis or long-term).

Even when it felt like too much, the feedback &#8212; enemies/objects reacting to being shot, sound design, Etc. &#8212; made each death have impact in the moment; death was appropriately graphic/disturbing. After some battles in those games, I wasn't merely glad to have completed the section, I was relieved I didn't get (virtually) killed. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance does a decent job with feedback since you're able to use a "1:1" slashing mechanic and cut things up directly; the player is able to be more involved with what's happening on the screen, so instead of just tapping a button until the enemy cyborg is dead, you actually slice his arms and head off. This happens hundreds of times throughout the game, yet the game is focused on combat and killing each enemy is an involving, graphic experience, something that's also addressed in the game's story/by its characters.

There's one massive flaw in your argument OP.

IT'S A VIDEO GAME!

You are over analysing it.

He's over-analyzing it if his only concern is to merely enjoy absolutely everything that occurs in a game. He wants this aspect of game design to be improved though which will require some analysis beyond "it's a game."
 
But yeah. At Mexico. Am I suddenly going to start hating the game like most of the internet seems to imply I'm about to >.>?

The first third is the best third, and the reason the game deserves any praise at all. What comes next is awful.

My favorite story about Red Dead isn't about killing people, though. It's about bears. On my way back to town one day, I was attacked and my horse(s) was murdered by, oh, about nine. So then I get into town, and I meet this dude, and he's all "hey, let's do a mission," so I'm like "sure," and then there's this Indian guy who goes with us, and we see a bear.

Now, I'd just spent the past half hour being assaulted by bears. I was not particularly inclined to be friendly to this bear. Fortunately, the crazy dude got him first, which was all fine and dandy, until Rockstar decided to pull the whole "noble savage/mystic indian" thing and go all "The bear would not have attacked you if you had attacked it."

Bitch, please, I've played Red Dead Redemption. I know what bears are like. Maybe they're racist bears who only attack white people. Dunno. Point is, gameplay and writing are insanely dissonant, because Rockstar sucks at both.

He's over-analyzing it if his only concern is to merely enjoy absolutely everything that occurs in a game. He wants this aspect of game design to be improved though which will require some analysis beyond "it's a game."

I wanted to joke about getting Ken Levine's name wrong, but honestly, your post was great, particularly this bit. It frustrates me that people seem to think games don't need to be analyzed. The mindset reminds me a bit of the people who were bitching at Tarkovsky about his films, because the films practically begged to be analyzed; those people were so short-sighted that his films actually made them upset, because they wanted to see movies in a "it's just a movie" context.
 
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