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The EU's Digital Markets Act (DMA) and game consoles

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...val-to-new-rules-for-fair-competition-online/

As an iPhone user, this will enable you to:
* Install any software

* Install any App Store and choose to make it default

* Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default

* Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default

* User any browser and browser engine and choose to make it default

* Use any messaging app and choose to make it default

* Make core messaging functionality interoperable. They lay out concrete examples like file transfer

* Use existing hardware and software features without competitive prejudice. E.g. NFC

* Not preference their services. This includes CTAs in settings to encourage users to subscribe to Gatekeeper services, and ranking their own services above others in selection and advertising portals

* Much, much, more.

After the Act is signed by the Council and the European Parliament in September, Apple, Google, Amazon, and other "Gatekeepers" will have six months to comply. Fines are up to 10% of global revenue for the first offense, and 20% for repeat offenses.

In the EU, they're forcing companies like Apple and Google to actually give consumers control over the hardware they paid for i.e. they will be able to install whatever software they want on an iphone, etc.

I think this regulation should be applied to video game consoles, too. If you think about it, the whole console industry sucks. It's uncompetitive and anti-consumer. Price dumping hardware is an unfair advantage for already huge corporations and puts competitors at a disadvantage. How exactly are you supposed to compete with Sony and Microsoft if you want to get into the industry? You basically already have to be huge enough to just bleed cash on hardware. It's dumb. Price dumping hardware needs to go bye bye, consoles are just another computer that you should be able to do whatever you want with, and if I want to make a Playstation 5 game, I should just be able to do it without even communicating with Sony. All this locked down crap is just an 80s relic that Nintendo normalized even though it was fucking stupid from day one. The bottom line is that the Nintendo model has always been an inherit conflict of interest: if you sell hardware, but you also sell games, and your customers pay you money to be able to release games on your platform, you're competing with your customers. That's just an insane conflict of interest. These companies need to just pucker up, grab ankle, and sell hardware for a profit and stop with all the predatory walled garden dog shit. And note that the Steam Deck is basically already an example of this business model. Even the piece of shit 3DO would have had a better chance if it wasn't for all the price dumping going on with the competition.
 
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ManaByte

Gold Member
In the EU, they're forcing companies like Apple and Google to actually give consumers control over the hardware they paid for i.e. they will be able to install whatever software they want on an iphone, etc.

Apple withdraws iPhones from the EU tomorrow?
 
Apple withdraws iPhones from the EU tomorrow?
 
iPhone user here. Here’s what happens when apple doesn’t enforce their policies

-Banks won’t support Apple Pay and force me to use their app to open up and pay with
- like that app? Cool download our App Store and sign up as it’s exclusively in our own App Store
- whoops looks like that dhl app you downloaded was Spyware (happened to father in law on android)

If I wanted any of this I would have bought an android. EU need to stop Overreaching
 
iPhone user here. Here’s what happens when apple doesn’t enforce their policies

-Banks won’t support Apple Pay and force me to use their app to open up and pay with
- like that app? Cool download our App Store and sign up as it’s exclusively in our own App Store
- whoops looks like that dhl app you downloaded was Spyware (happened to father in law on android)

If I wanted any of this I would have bought an android. EU need to stop Overreaching

Nah. It's not overreach. You should be able to do whatever you want with computers you buy.
 
Nah. It's not overreach. You should be able to do whatever you want with computers you buy.
Eu should have mandated that any options also need to be available on the phones default applications. Then people can actually choose. So if a bank wants to access the nfc they also need to offer the default option (apple pay) and if an app wants it own store then it also needs to be offered on apples App Store. Then you’re really giving customers a choice. Cause right now all they’re doing is causing more headaches for consumers.

The iPhones App Store and services are cleaner than android due to apples policies
 
I suspect there will be lots of unintended consequences from this. Let’s see how this turns out…

They will allow it but just make everything incompatible that doesn’t follow their rules I suspect.
 
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iPhone user here. Here’s what happens when apple doesn’t enforce their policies

-Banks won’t support Apple Pay and force me to use their app to open up and pay with
- like that app? Cool download our App Store and sign up as it’s exclusively in our own App Store
- whoops looks like that dhl app you downloaded was Spyware (happened to father in law on android)

If I wanted any of this I would have bought an android. EU need to stop Overreaching
Your on the money here. Especially the 'money' part. Europe in general has a better system for no cash payments but the US is still stuck in the freeking 70's with how far behind NFC is handled. EVeryone wants to own the way you pay. I am still asked to use my fucking signature when I use a credit card. zero security, zero ease, zero 2022 tech.
Now Europe wants to chuck all that away? I don't get it. They had something great and they are letting it slip away into insecurity.
 
Your on the money here. Especially the 'money' part. Europe in general has a better system for no cash payments but the US is still stuck in the freeking 70's with how far behind NFC is handled. EVeryone wants to own the way you pay. I am still asked to use my fucking signature when I use a credit card. zero security, zero ease, zero 2022 tech.
Now Europe wants to chuck all that away? I don't get it. They had something great and they are letting it slip away into insecurity.

Giving people options isn't "insecurity."
 

kikkis

Member
Giving people options isn't "insecurity."
It is literally taking options away, by dictating how people should run their companies. Eu sees status quo of couple of American os providers as infinite state of affairs. After the legislation there is less incentive to create a new os since you can't monetize it the way you want and even if you did eu would find a way to label you as gatekeeper to hopefully get a pie of your success.

I mean 10 percent of global revenues is just absurd. If they wanted to be fair and not self serving, eu would just send cease and desist order. Also 6 months to comply is completely unreasonable time frame.
 
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Giving people options isn't "insecurity."
There is giving options. And then there is taking away security. Which is what this will do. It's being done in the states currently.
If you have a credit card, are buying a house, have a retirement fund, have insurance you might want more than just an everyone has their hands in your stuff platform.

Perhaps the platform holders can somehow wall off their hardware to allow some sandbox version of all these 'eye roll' options.
 
There is giving options. And then there is taking away security. Which is what this will do. It's being done in the states currently.
If you have a credit card, are buying a house, have a retirement fund, have insurance you might want more than just an everyone has their hands in your stuff platform.

Perhaps the platform holders can somehow wall off their hardware to allow some sandbox version of all these 'eye roll' options.

No, actually, it has nothing to do with security. No one is forcing you to install different applications on your phone. It's the opposite, really. Locked down machines are security problems. Safari, for example, has had tons of vulnerabilities that went unpatched for months if not years.
 
No one is forcing you to install different applications on your phone
Make core messaging functionality interoperable. They lay out concrete examples like file transfer.

I'll just quote ONE of the things that you posted. Forced.
Not that you choose which to use. NO you are forced to talk between other programs with all forms of whatever security is available.
 
Make core messaging functionality interoperable. They lay out concrete examples like file transfer.

I'll just quote ONE of the things that you posted. Forced.
Not that you choose which to use. NO you are forced to talk between other programs with all forms of whatever security is available.

That isn't what that means.

Locked down systems that aren't interoperable can have tons of security problems that people are unaware of due to "security via obscurity." It's NOT more secure.

Basically everything the poo pooers are saying is the equivalent of "omfg the source code for linux is available. it's gonna get hax0red. windows is so much more secure."

Yeah right.
 

reksveks

Member
Is this something that can be used with NFT? Or is it online website only thing?
I mean NFC not NFT. My brain can't keep up anymore.
The whole vetting of app's on MacOS even if you have downloaded it from the Web.

They also do the app signing which they could also do on iOS.

There will be some security issues I am sure but we already have some on iOS thanks to the NSO group.
 

hlm666

Member
If the console sold at a loss idea circumvents these laws, I wonder if the loss of revenue from having to have other app stores on an iphone would out weigh apple selling their phones at a 30 dollar loss (that was the number I saw thrown around for xsx/ps5 at launch, though ive seen people saying they actually are sold in the black now). There's a whole host of shady shit apple could do to make it look like they are sold at a loss on paper aswell with respect to the billions they spend on research and development. Would be really good if this ends up reducing the cost of phones. I use android for custom firmware anyway but people in the family prefer their locked down apple shit, so a price cut on them would be more beneficial although the whole idea is fantasy land, apple will have it's cake and eat it somehow.
 

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
If the console sold at a loss idea circumvents these laws, I wonder if the loss of revenue from having to have other app stores on an iphone would out weigh apple selling their phones at a 30 dollar loss (that was the number I saw thrown around for xsx/ps5 at launch, though ive seen people saying they actually are sold in the black now). There's a whole host of shady shit apple could do to make it look like they are sold at a loss on paper aswell with respect to the billions they spend on research and development. Would be really good if this ends up reducing the cost of phones. I use android for custom firmware anyway but people in the family prefer their locked down apple shit, so a price cut on them would be more beneficial although the whole idea is fantasy land, apple will have it's cake and eat it somehow.
I think the difference isn't that consoles are sold at a loss, it's that they're not general purpose utility devices that are often now relied upon by people to perform everyday tasks (banking, accessing public services etc.)

It wouldn't surprise me that the reason the PS5 doesn't surface a browser for general use, is that it helps argue that it is not a general use device. Ironic when the PS3 offered OtherOS to argue that it was just that, for tax reasons 😆
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
I think the difference isn't that consoles are sold at a loss, it's that they're not general purpose utility devices that are often now relied upon by people to perform everyday tasks (banking, accessing public services etc.)

It wouldn't surprise me that the reason the PS5 doesn't surface a browser for general use, is that it helps argue that it is not a general use device. Ironic when the PS3 offered OtherOS to argue that it was just that, for tax reasons 😆
That's what I thought about OtherOs originally, but arguing for a tax break was just a secondary issue, because the feature was only provided - in firmware - while DevKits cost thousands of pound and IBM and Sony both needed a method of putting cheap Cell BE hardware in the hands of the software engineering community to build a developer base with the esoteric hardware.

I suspect Apple's push into its own esoteric ARM solutions was a pre-emptive strategy against this act(and others) - where they can play the long game by failing to document the proprietary aspects of their hardware to avoid giving non-app store software parity access, and resulting in "unofficial" software having a performance and battery life disadvantage.

When they are forced to disclose their APIs , they'll probably take a page out of Microsoft's book regarding how they disadvantaged Novel with staroffice/netware by keeping others in the dark with API changes. And then when they are forced to provide actual hardware mapping, they'll likely make the hardware changes too rapid for anyone but them to utilise the iPhone/iPad hardware optimally for the first 12months to indirectly keep the status quo of everyone using the App-store and giving away a big cut.
 
No, actually, it has nothing to do with security. No one is forcing you to install different applications on your phone. It's the opposite,
Lol it’s funny you think companies like epic won’t force you to install their App Store and sign up to it.
Apple gets systems in one place. App Store, Apple Pay etc
In Australia a few banks were trying to not have Apple Pay because they wanted apple to open nfc to force users to use Their app even though it was quicker to use Apple Pay.
You’re disillusioned if you think this won’t create more stores and locked features to certain apps

HomeKit, we’ll now to control your lights you need our app and fill out all your information thanks
The issue is the app store policy of forcing you to either using their payment processing or paying a 27% commission.
While apple should offer other payment options, they’re also entitled to be paid for the system and ecosystem they have set up. Do you message Uber and ask to use their app with out paying extra?

Apple has a form of a solution on MacOS that they don't want to implement on iOS
Phones have a lot more features and uses than a pc especially with personal information.

Android has the larger market share. Android is open.
Developers and consumers can vote with their wallet and software release.
 
I think the difference isn't that consoles are sold at a loss, it's that they're not general purpose utility devices that are often now relied upon by people to perform everyday tasks (banking, accessing public services etc.)

It wouldn't surprise me that the reason the PS5 doesn't surface a browser for general use, is that it helps argue that it is not a general use device. Ironic when the PS3 offered OtherOS to argue that it was just that, for tax reasons 😆

That's the swindle, though. They ARE general purpose devices. They're all just computers. They're weaseling out of responsibility because politicians don't actually understand technology.
 
Lol it’s funny you think companies like epic won’t force you to install their App Store and sign up to it.
Apple gets systems in one place. App Store, Apple Pay etc
In Australia a few banks were trying to not have Apple Pay because they wanted apple to open nfc to force users to use Their app even though it was quicker to use Apple Pay.
You’re disillusioned if you think this won’t create more stores and locked features to certain apps

HomeKit, we’ll now to control your lights you need our app and fill out all your information thanks

While apple should offer other payment options, they’re also entitled to be paid for the system and ecosystem they have set up. Do you message Uber and ask to use their app with out paying extra?


Phones have a lot more features and uses than a pc especially with personal information.

Android has the larger market share. Android is open.
Developers and consumers can vote with their wallet and software release.

You would have to choose to play an Epic game in the first place.

I don't have the Epic store installed here.

Uh, no. Phones do not have more features than PCs. PCs have WAY more features than phones and basically all the same I/O. Heard of web cams? Microphones? People do banking on PCs. Handle medical appointments. Send personal e-mails to doctors.
 
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You would have to choose to play an Epic game in the first place.
But you get my point.
There’s no need for the Eu to implement this, other than make apple allow open payments for apps and subs but they should still get their share

I can’t wait for a year after
“Eu introduces law to stop hacking of phones from rogue apps”
 

reksveks

Member
While apple should offer other payment options, they’re also entitled to be paid for the system and ecosystem they have set up. Do you message Uber and ask to use their app with out paying extra?
I am not arguing that they shouldn't be paid, I am arguing that their current commission rate (and Google's) is anti-competitive. At 27% margin, there is fundamentally no difference to dev's here and no space for payment processers to compete in.

Phones have a lot more features and uses than a pc especially with personal information.
Not really, I stick my PII in web browser on PC's all the time to buy stuff.

Android has the larger market share. Android is open.
Developers and consumers can vote with their wallet and software release.
Not its not, AOSP is open, Android isn't and it comes with a bunch of rules for OEM's. Android is also being looked at by regulators for similar issues. Dev's are stuck in a duopoly that basically copy each other, there is no real meaningful market process that promotes competition here.
 
But you get my point.
There’s no need for the Eu to implement this, other than make apple allow open payments for apps and subs but they should still get their share

I can’t wait for a year after
“Eu introduces law to stop hacking of phones from rogue apps”

I disagree. There's a GLOBAL need to implement this. People don't even own $1,000 computers that they buy and can't even use them. It's ridiculous. I applaud the EU on this.
 

Zones

Member
OP, where does it say that "install any App Store and choose to make it default" in the actual document?

Please don't just show me other people's misleading quotes... give the exact quote from the actual document which says the above.

Do please note that the document clearly says that default online search engine, virtual assistant or web browser should not be forced and the end user should be allowed to use default alternatives (official excerpt below), but again, where does it say that the official default App Store can similarly be circumvented?

Gatekeepers should also allow end users to easily change the default settings on the operating system, virtual assistant and web browser when those default settings favour their own software applications and services. This includes prompting a choice screen, at the moment of the users’ first use of an online search engine, virtual assistant or web browser of the gatekeeper listed in the designation decision, allowing end users to select an alternative default service when the operating system of the gatekeeper directs end users to those online search engine, virtual assistant or web browser and when the virtual assistant or the web browser of the gatekeeper direct the user to the online search engine listed in the designation decision.
 
And yet people keep choosing to buy them. So what does that tell you? Every iPhone owner knows you can do all those things on an android and yet they still buy them

I am not arguing that they shouldn't be paid, I am arguing that their current commission rate (and Google's) is anti-competitive. At 27% margin, there is fundamentally no difference to dev's here and no space for payment processers to compete in.
Right so apple needs to allow payment processors to compete? This logic is stupid. Oh hey guys you’re creating an ecosystem but you need to ensure you allow all these other companies to be able to compete on your platform.
Why don’t those payment processors start their own phone and operating system?

other, there is no real meaningful market process that promotes competition here.
There is. Make your own operating system and phone.

There's a GLOBAL need to implement this. People don't even own $1,000 computers that they buy and can't even use them. It's ridiculous
I disagree. I use my iPhone for exactly what I want it to. I don’t open my phone and decide which sms program I want to use. Samsung ones? The android one? Download another one? File browser, oh hey I opened a file.. hmm which program do I want to use.

See I don’t want to do that. I want all my home devices in home kit, I want al my banking cards in Apple Pay. I want to use apple systems for security and ease of use.

If I wanted options, and to be able to set defaults…. I would and wait for this
Get an android to do exactly that.
We’re at iPhone 13… if you haven’t realised what an iPhone is like by this point in time
 

reksveks

Member
Right so apple needs to allow payment processors to compete? This logic is stupid. Oh hey guys you’re creating an ecosystem but you need to ensure you allow all these other companies to be able to compete on your platform.
Why don’t those payment processors start their own phone and operating system?
There is. Make your own operating system and phone.
Because it doesn't work. There are network effects that happens in free markets (that stifle competition) that ultimately can't be resolved without regulation. I am sure that there are many people are happy with the number of ISP choices that they have in the US, an natural outcome of free-markets.

Apple/Google/Amazon/Microsoft are able to starve out newcomers to the space thanks to the revenue from other divisions if they want to.

Going to move on though cause ultimately this shit is going to take some time to resolve and there is enough local regulators pushing this.

Back to the thread topic; you should have a look at the requirements to be a gatekeeper. You have to be one of a certain set of platforms and then also hit one of the financial metrics
- 65bn marketcap
- 6.5bn EEA turnover in the last 3 years
- 10,000 business users
 
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And yet people keep choosing to buy them. So what does that tell you? Every iPhone owner knows you can do all those things on an android and yet they still buy them


Right so apple needs to allow payment processors to compete? This logic is stupid. Oh hey guys you’re creating an ecosystem but you need to ensure you allow all these other companies to be able to compete on your platform.
Why don’t those payment processors start their own phone and operating system?


There is. Make your own operating system and phone.


I disagree. I use my iPhone for exactly what I want it to. I don’t open my phone and decide which sms program I want to use. Samsung ones? The android one? Download another one? File browser, oh hey I opened a file.. hmm which program do I want to use.

See I don’t want to do that. I want all my home devices in home kit, I want al my banking cards in Apple Pay. I want to use apple systems for security and ease of use.

If I wanted options, and to be able to set defaults…. I would and wait for this
Get an android to do exactly that.
We’re at iPhone 13… if you haven’t realised what an iPhone is like by this point in time

Yeah, that's fine. You can do what you want, and other people can do what they want, now. They couldn't before. Thanks, choice. That's a nice choice. Good job EU.
 

kikkis

Member
Because it doesn't work. There are network effects that happens in free markets (that stifle competition) that ultimately can't be resolved without regulation. I am sure that there are many people are happy with the number of ISP choices that they have in the US, an natural outcome of free-markets.

Apple/Google/Amazon/Microsoft are able to starve out newcomers to the space thanks to the revenue from other divisions if they want to.

Going to move on though cause ultimately this shit is going to take some time to resolve and there is enough local regulators pushing this.

Back to the thread topic; you should have a look at the requirements to be a gatekeeper. You have to be one of a certain set of platforms and then also hit one of the financial metrics
- 65bn marketcap
- 6.5bn EEA turnover in the last 3 years
- 10,000 business users
Just like Nokia starved out the competition away by starving itself.
 

Amiga

Member
Big trouble for Android if true. It will lose it's main selling point.

Contrary to some opinions, having a locked down system from an unlimited number of potential attackers is a good thing. If people want an open system they can buy it. there are even Linux phones out there.
 
Big trouble for Android if true. It will lose it's main selling point.

Contrary to some opinions, having a locked down system from an unlimited number of potential attackers is a good thing. If people want an open system they can buy it. there are even Linux phones out there.
It really isn't. It's the illusion of security but it isn't actually more secure. True security needs to be tested against attacks.
 

reksveks

Member
Just like Nokia starved out the competition away by starving itself.
Phones weren't computers then and there was no real network effects like there is in iMessage.

At this point, I would take properly being able to install another browser and not a skin of Safari.
 
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Skifi28

Member
For better or for worse, I'm not sure the consoles could survive such a transition. Being a locked down system is a big part of the appeal (ease of use) and if they stop getting all the profit on software they'd have to significally increase the price of hardware losing yet another reason people buy consoles. At that point you are left with a gimped PC at a similar cost, so why even buy one?
 
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Helghan

Member
Back to the thread topic; you should have a look at the requirements to be a gatekeeper. You have to be one of a certain set of platforms and then also hit one of the financial metrics
- 65bn marketcap
- 6.5bn EEA turnover in the last 3 years
- 10,000 business users
Both xbox and PlayStation check those requirements, right? Wonder how quickly they can implement such a thing if it needs to be ready by March-April 2023
 

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
Both xbox and PlayStation check those requirements, right? Wonder how quickly they can implement such a thing if it needs to be ready by March-April 2023
It depends which entity is used, but I don't think SIE (Playstation) has turned over EUR 7,5 billion in each of the last three financial years within the EU?

Guess if the entity is Sony then they might, their market cap?

PS Monthly active users worldwide is 106M? So EU might be 45M?
 
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