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The Fandom Menace - Not Really Right Wing At All, At Worst Just Overly Pedantic Nerds

Nymphae

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The writer for the She-Hulk TV show just had a meltdown on Twitter whining that the actors and Abrams arent defending Johnson fron all those evil, stupid fans.
Does anyone remember "sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me?"

That was preschool level advice for tuning out things that don't matter, and it's true. Focus on crushing in your life instead of imploding because anons on Twitter are pushing your buttons.
 

GreyHorace

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The writer for the She-Hulk TV show just had a meltdown on Twitter whining that the actors and Abrams arent defending Johnson fron all those evil, stupid fans.
And later on in her feed she says she doesn't give a fuck what those mean fans hate about The Last Jedi.

If she didn't give a fuck why the hell does she keep bringing it up?
 
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oagboghi2

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Founder of the “Fandom Menace”: “I loved The Last Jedi and thought it did a damned good job of what it needed to be for Star Wars” : https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/261607146070736897/654370382475690034/ripsave_-_TIL_that_Jeremy_from_Geeks_and_Gamers_Loved_The_Last_Jedi._Probably_the_Biggest_Plot_Twist.mp4

And I’ll just leave this here:
I'm not suprised. On a surface level TLJ is fine. It's when you actually think about it that it all falls apart.

Not that you care since you are just a shill
 

MacReady13

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Becuase she is a sycophantic idiot who believes anyone who disagrees with her is a morally bad person.

In other words, she is a liberal.
Amazes me that it's ok to really hate the prequels and voice your opinions and no one says a word. It's also fine now to hate the originals and pick on things in those films and no one bats an eye lid but say a word against the sequels, especially The Last Jedi, and you are a fucking criminal! Why? What is so special about that film? I hate it, but i'm not mad at people who love it. This is just crazy level shit. I like the prequels but don't go psycho on anyone when they hate them!
 
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sol_bad

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dude are you going to be whining endlessly in this thread? if you want an anti-Fandom Menace thread then make it yourself. please keep that conspiracy trash out of my thread.
THIS is actually quite funny.
It's nigh impossible to have a positive thread about TLJ for people who enjoy the film. You're going to sit there and cry about someone posting something debunking your ridiculous videos? Really?
 
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belmarduk

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There's nothing wrong whatsoever with having a cast that represents the diverse societies we live in. Having said that, the girl who plays Rose in TLJ is a horrendous actor. Its unclear if her character dies in the film but I hope she will not be in the next Star Wars film.
 

sol_bad

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There's nothing wrong whatsoever with having a cast that represents the diverse societies we live in. Having said that, the girl who plays Rose in TLJ is a horrendous actor. Its unclear if her character dies in the film but I hope she will not be in the next Star Wars film.
Speaking of diverse cast, one of the negative videos I watched threw up 3-4 freeze frames showing background characters of different nationalities and he stated that he didn't care about a diverse cast. I mean, if he doesn't care, why does he have to point it out?

And then of course later in the video he says "Asian lady" and "black man" rather than calling them by their names or some other descriptive word.
LOL
 

oagboghi2

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Speaking of diverse cast, one of the negative videos I watched threw up 3-4 freeze frames showing background characters of different nationalities and he stated that he didn't care about a diverse cast. I mean, if he doesn't care, why does he have to point it out?

And then of course later in the video he says "Asian lady" and "black man" rather than calling them by their names or some other descriptive word.
LOL
Post that video
 

sol_bad

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DUMB ASIAN LADY


lol
I just realised it's on the first page, it randomly showed up as a recommended video.

*EDIT*
I started watching the hour and 20 minute video from the op and in the first 5 minutes the guy is talking about First Order and complaining that the film doesn't set them up and asks all these questions. Then he compares it to episode 4 A New Hope and how it's a simple set up and it doesn't need to over explain things. So episode 4 doesn't need to over explain but episode 7 and 8 do????

From the episode 4 opening crawl:
It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

From the episode 7 opening crawl:
Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

That's it, that's all you need to set up both films. There are your steaks. Neither film explains the Empire or First Order in great depth.
At 5 minutes in to the video, I can see it'll be a fun watch. I'll watch the rest tomorrow.
 
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oagboghi2

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DUMB ASIAN LADY


lol
I just realised it's on the first page, it randomly showed up as a recommended video.
What a shock, you're full of shit.

"Now just to make it clear, this is not a shot against diversity. Space is a big space, and it makes sense it is populated by more than just weirdo Aliens, a bunch of white people and one black guy"

Yeah sounds like a real racist to me🙄😂


The guy isn't complaining about the diverse cast.

So you took 2 moments out of context in a 20 minute video. Great job



That's about what I was expecting.

THIS is actually quite funny.
It's nigh impossible to have a positive thread about TLJ for people who enjoy the film. You're going to sit there and cry about someone posting something debunking your ridiculous videos? Really?
Why can't we have a thread about a bad movie without people calling the movie bad 😂
 
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From the episode 4 opening crawl:
It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

From the episode 7 opening crawl:
Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

That's it, that's all you need to set up both films. There are your steaks. Neither film explains the Empire or First Order in great depth.
At 5 minutes in to the video, I can see it'll be a fun watch. I'll watch the rest tomorrow.
Episode 4 was the first film. It needed the viewer to have a basic understanding of the universe and setting before the actual story could start. It does that, no more, no less.

Episode 7 is different. It needs to explain why these events happen after the Empire was defeated in Episode 6. We know they're defeated because their leader is dead, their army is broken and fleeing, and everyone across the galaxy celebrates their victory. That's the last we've seen of this universe for many years. So episode 7 has some explaining to do, but it doesn't address why the First Order exists, how they're able to build a super Death Star, and why the Resistance is having trouble beating them. Heck, why is there even a resistance? Isn't that just the fleet/army of the new republic that they formed after the Empire fell? All of that could have been explained in the films later on, but that didn't happen. We're two films in now, and no one understand WHY the First Order even exists.
 

Nymphae

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Neither film explains the Empire or First Order in great depth.
4 didn't need to. You get a setup - Rebels vs. Evil Empire. Ok cool, lets see this play out for 3 movies, learn about things. They eventually write in the backstory details and all that is cool too, but for the initial film, you didn't need a lot, just team A vs team B, a starting point.

7 absolutely did need to establish how we arrived at the state we're at in the film, given the previous narrative, but it hand waves away the ending of RotJ and doesn't concern itself with how the FO came to power in 30 years despite the victory of the Republic, how the Republic is once again in the position it was in at the start of episode 4, the events that transpired to separate our heroes and make them fairly unimportant and nearly forgotten in this universe a mere 30 years after being absolute galactic legends....you know, basic questions you'd have about the difference between the state of things after RotJ, and what we are being shown now. It'd be one thing if they detailed these things during the course of the new films, but they don't really. Buy the tie in novels/comics for those juicy backstory bits!
 
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sol_bad

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Did ..... did any of you watch episode 4 and 5?
The Death Star was destroyed at the end of 4, nek minute, Empire is at full power kicking their arse at the start of 5.

OMG
No explanation how they survived!!!

RE 6 to 7, yeah the Emperor is dead, but it's easy to imagine that certain fractions of the Empire came together and "rose from the ashes" to continue doing what they do.

You don't need a whole convoluted story, parts of the Empire survive and they slowly grow and take control again. You only complain about this for ...... reasons.
 

oagboghi2

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Did ..... did any of you watch episode 4 and 5?
The Death Star was destroyed at the end of 4, nek minute, Empire is at full power kicking their arse at the start of 5.

OMG
No explanation how they survived!!!
You can't seriously be this dumb.

No one thought the empire was defeated at the end of 4

you've decided that learning how the first order formed is convuluted becuase....Disney told you how to think. 🙄
 
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I've watched a fair number of the Fandom Menace type videos...more than I care to admit, because I get bored at work easily. Some do come off as obnoxious overzealous fanboys who like to nitpick everything, but I think that's part of the shtick. That's what gets them views, and that's what brings in the money on youtube. The thing is though when you look past the obnoxious facade, and you look at the flaws of the sequels, especially TLJ, as a film critic it's clear that the movie is severely flawed.

I knew from the moment the movie ending when I saw The Last Jedi in theaters that I just watched something really really bad. I couldn't nitpick it all apart til later, but I knew the characterization of Luke Skywalker was completely botched. I knew that the whole Canto Bight subplot was god awful. I knew that Admiral Holdo was a bad character, and that her "plan" made no god damn sense. I knew that if they really wanted to take the serious in a subversive brave new direction, that they wouldn't have had Kylo Ren kill Snoke, fight alongside Rey, and then basically say "Oh no, I'm still evil, let's go kill all your friends." You wanna subvert our expectations, they should have made Kylo Ren not a bad guy anymore, and stuck the landing, instead of doing it half assed.

I didn't list everything, but the movie is just bad in so many ways, and as much as I am tired of hearing the term "Mary Sue", it really is what Rey is. I even thought she was a little too advanced with the force in TFA, because I always thought something like the Jedi Mind Trick was an advanced force user ability, yet she pulled it out of her ass, without knowing what the force was, and made it work on her second try. That was serious bull shit. Luke had to train his body and mind before he could become proficient with the force. He struggled to even lift things with his mind in the early parts of Empire Strikes Back.

I still refuse to believe that that character in TLJ was Luke Skywalker though. The man who didn't give up hope for his father, who was one of the most evil people in the galaxy, who had murdered by the thousands (millions if you count his involvement when the death star destroyed Alderaan), Luke still felt that the good within his father could be set free, and be brought back to the light. This is supposed to be the same character who sense a flicker of darkness in his nephew Ben Solo, and immediately thought he should kill him in his sleep. Fuck that noise. The real Luke Skywalker would sense this darkness, and attempt to show Ben the path to the light.
 
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The Death Star was destroyed at the end of 4, nek minute, Empire is at full power kicking their arse at the start of 5.

OMG
No explanation how they survived!!!
Come on, that's not fair. The first Star Wars movie was considered a risk back in the 70's. No one knew if the film would be profitable. It needed to be a stand-alone story with a clear beginning and end. They couldn't hint at a sequel, since it probably wouldn't happen. Originally the film wasn't even called "A New Hope," it was just "Star Wars," because it was the only movie that existed at the time. They left open a few options to make new films, by never showing the emperor and by having Vader survive the battle for example.

That's an entirely different situation from the Star Wars Disney got their hands on years later. It was an established franchise at that point, with a beloved story, characters and setting. You're damn right I expect a better explanation for these new movies.
 
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GreyHorace

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I've watched a fair number of the Fandom Menace type videos...more than I care to admit, because I get bored at work easily. Some do come off as obnoxious overzealous fanboys who like to nitpick everything, but I think that's part of the shtick. That's what gets them views, and that's what brings in the money on youtube. The thing is though when you look past the obnoxious facade, and you look at the flaws of the sequels, especially TLJ, as a film critic it's clear that the movie is severely flawed.

I knew from the moment the movie ending when I saw The Last Jedi in theaters that I just watched something really really bad. I couldn't nitpick it all apart til later, but I knew the characterization of Luke Skywalker was completely botched. I knew that the whole Canto Bight subplot was god awful. I knew that Admiral Holdo was a bad character, and that her "plan" made no god damn sense. I knew that if they really wanted to take the serious in a subversive brave new direction, that they wouldn't have had Kylo Ren kill Snoke, fight alongside Rey, and then basically say "Oh no, I'm still evil, let's go kill all your friends." You wanna subvert our expectations, they should have made Kylo Ren not a bad guy anymore, and stuck the landing, instead of doing it half assed.

I didn't list everything, but the movie is just bad in so many ways, and as much as I am tired of hearing the term "Mary Sue", it really is what Rey is. I even thought she was a little too advanced with the force in TFA, because I always thought something like the Jedi Mind Trick was an advanced force user ability, yet she pulled it out of her ass, without knowing what the force was, and made it work on her second try. That was serious bull shit. Luke had to train his body and mind before he could become proficient with the force. He struggled to even lift things with his mind in the early parts of Empire Strikes Back.

I still refuse to believe that that character in TLJ was Luke Skywalker though. The man who didn't give up hope for his father, who was one of the most evil people in the galaxy, who had murdered by the thousands (millions if you count his involvement when the death star destroyed Alderaan), Luke still felt that the good within his father could be set free, and be brought back to the light. This is supposed to be the same character who sense a flicker of darkness in his nephew Ben Solo, and immediately thought he should kill him in his sleep. Fuck that noise. The real Luke Skywalker would sense this darkness, and attempt to show Ben the path to the light.
What you said really reflects my feelings regarding The Last Jedi. When I first watched the movie I admit I enjoyed it. I thought it was good and that fanboys were overreacting as usual. But, as I began thinking about it more and watching video essays critical of the film (particularly RedLetterMedia's), I saw the flaws that were present there all the time:

- For all their talk of subversion and bold new narrative choices, nothing new happens. It's just the same old setup of Empire vs Rebels. I'm sick of the franchise leaning on this tired old conflict.
- The introduction of new supporting characters I didn't care for. Particularly Rose Tico and DJ.
- Holdo was an idiot. Keeping your soldiers in the dark of your plans is a really bad way to inspire confidence. I really wish they had a familiar character like Ackbar butt heads with Poe instead.
- The Canto Bright subplot was stupid and didn't really amount to much in the end.
- I actually like Rey as a character but I'll admit she is a Mary Sue. The original trilogy made it a point that training to become a Jedi was hard work and that it took Luke years to master the Force. But Rey? In the course of two movies which seem to take place in the span of a week she's performing all these abilities with barely any training.
- And finally, the way Luke was written was a complete betrayal of his character. I wouldn't mind it if they wrote him as a recluse who was haunted by the wrong choices he made, but that was not the way to go about it. A shame, because I think Mark Hamill gave a fantastic performance despite the awful material he was given.

So yeah, here we are at the cusp of the release of the final film in this sequel trilogy, and I really don't care much. I'm more hyped to watch new episodes of The Mandalorian than any of the films.
 
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I don't like how much of the nerdy pedantry isn't even accurate, though or can be applied to the OT in turn. If Rey turns out to have some special parentage some nerd is going to yell retcon with no self awareness that it wasn't planned for Vader to be Luke's father or Leia his sister. The Snoke stuff is particularly grating "they killed this enigmatic evil force with a clear past without telling us where he came from" man that like legit 100% describes the Emperor in the OT until the prequels came into existence (which even still hint at a past not shown prior to those). People also like to claim TLJ was just trying to subvert expectations even though Kylo Ren has been wrestling with the Light side since TFA and even says so in the film, it was not a subversion when he killed Snoke, it was a fulfillment of expectations, he had more build up to his turn than Vader did who never once shows anything resembling empathy or remorse until the end of Return of the Jedi. They complain about the films inventing new force powers but if you watched the OT in order each successive film introduced some new power that wasn't used prior, like totally legit. The force in the OT was just there to serve the plot/themes/characters and that's why it exists in the new trilogy as well. Part of why midichlorians were so hated was because they made the force small and quanitifiable and removed the mystique from it and to be honest there's a whole generation of Star Wars "fans" who are 100% dedicated to removing mystique from things with their Wookiepedias and their extended universes.
 

sol_bad

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I knew that if they really wanted to take the serious in a subversive brave new direction, that they wouldn't have had Kylo Ren kill Snoke, fight alongside Rey, and then basically say "Oh no, I'm still evil, let's go kill all your friends." You wanna subvert our expectations, they should have made Kylo Ren not a bad guy anymore, and stuck the landing, instead of doing it half assed.

I didn't list everything, but the movie is just bad in so many ways, and as much as I am tired of hearing the term "Mary Sue", it really is what Rey is. I even thought she was a little too advanced with the force in TFA, because I always thought something like the Jedi Mind Trick was an advanced force user ability, yet she pulled it out of her ass, without knowing what the force was, and made it work on her second try. That was serious bull shit. Luke had to train his body and mind before he could become proficient with the force. He struggled to even lift things with his mind in the early parts of Empire Strikes Back.
Having Kylo Ren switch sides and be a good guy is exactly what the audiences expected to happen in that scene. There have been countless movies where a bad guy kills the leader and becomes a good guy, seeing the error of their ways. Kylo staying bad is and was unexpected in that scene.

As for the mind trick, c'mon, Luke had to train hard? Obi-Wan told him what the force was in the first film and stuck a helmet on his head backwards and taught him how to hold a light saber. In the second film Yoda had Luke run through the jungle, swing on vines, do a handstand, pick up a few things and yapped about the good/dark side.

Here's a reminder.

I don't see Yoda teaching him to use the mind trick, he didn't even teach him how to see in to the future, it just happens.

And here is Obi-Wan using the mind trick.

But hey, if saying "the force does this, the force does that, the force can help in many ways" is what you call training, so be it.

Come on, that's not fair. The first Star Wars movie was considered a risk back in the 70's. No one knew if the film would be profitable. It needed to be a stand-alone story with a clear beginning and end. They couldn't hint at a sequel, since it probably wouldn't happen. Originally the film wasn't even called "A New Hope," it was just "Star Wars," because it was the only movie that existed at the time. They left open a few options to make new films, by never showing the emperor and by having Vader survive the battle for example.

That's an entirely different situation from the Star Wars Disney got their hands on years later. It was an established franchise at that point, with a beloved story, characters and setting. You're damn right I expect a better explanation for these new movies.
It's completely fair, back in the 1080 no one gave a crap that the Empire was still at full force in the 2nd film and in the 1983 they didn't care that their was a 2nd Death Star in the 3rd film. Audiences didn't nit pick every tiny thing or ask how the Empire can still be so powerful after their defeat in the first film. People just went to be whisked to a galaxy far far away. Hell, people in the early 2000's didn't nit pick stupid things like how or why the Separatists were formed and became so powerful in Attack of the Clones. They read the crawl, the crawl told them there were separatists because ..... turmoil and that's all audiences needed. They did complain and say there should have been movies between episodes 4-5 or episodes 1-2.
 
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dan76

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The reason the ST is nitpicked is because theyre mostly bad films. For TLJ there is so much that is obviously wrong with the characters and their motivations it exposes all the other technical stuff that generally gets a free pass with Star Wars. I suppose no one really questioned how the Empire was so powerful after the Death Star blew up because Empire was a great fucking film. Who gives a shit. TLJ is god awful in almost very sense so it's just more ammunition.

I knew that I'd had to watch TLJ again with my gf when I first saw it and I knew I didn't want to sit through it again. But I did and she liked it. Lots of people liked it because it's well directed. It's better directed than any of the Prequels. The problem is the script! It's one of the worst scripts written, especially for a Star Wars film. I think that's why some people liked it, then thought about it and realised it was worse than Attack of the Clones.
 
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The reason the ST is nitpicked is because theyre mostly bad films. For TLJ there is so much that is obviously wrong with the characters and their motivations it exposes all the other technical stuff that generally gets a free pass with Star Wars. I suppose no one really questioned how the Empire was so powerful after the Death Star blew up because Empire was a great fucking film. Who gives a shit. TLJ is god awful in almost very sense so it's just more ammunition.

I knew that I'd had to watch TLJ again with my gf when I first saw it and I knew I didn't want to sit through it again. But I did and she liked it. Lots of people liked it because it's well directed. It's better directed than any of the Prequels. The problem is the script! It's one of the worst scripts written, especially for a Star Wars film. I think that's why some people liked it, then thought about it and realised it was worse than Attack of the Clones.
Most criticisms I've seen for the script come from people who learned what plot holes and deus ex machinas were from Cinema Sins and have no real depth of thought on what makes a good script. Most the arguments against the film are asinine things like "MUH LUKE WOULDN'T DO THAT" (George Lucas literally pitched the sequel trilogy as being about Luke secluding himself on an island due to dark side temptations, becoming a hermit and finding redemption from his despair through training a new young female in the ways of the force, this is not up for debate he even provided concept art for the island that was in large parts used) or "THE FORCE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY" when how the force works changes all the time in every film, every single OT film has new force powers without explanation and they're always there to advance the story, the force is a convenient plot device to tell such a grand story and no film should be bound by made up rules for it (and yes, any rules you found on Wookiepedia or in the EU are not Lucas' rules, he is quoted as saying the EU is a different world from his that he doesn't care about) or "SNOKE NO BACKSTORY" which is funny considering the Emperor and Vader had very little for back stories before the prequels came into existence close to 20 years after the OT ended, these same people would be crying that Return of the Jedi ended without explaining what happened to Vader to leave him scarred and in that armor had it released today. That said other people have argued this better than me...

 
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dan76

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Most criticisms I've seen for the script come from people who learned what plot holes and deus ex machinas were from Cinema Sins and have no real depth of thought on what makes a good script. Most the arguments against the film are asinine things like "MUH LUKE WOULDN'T DO THAT" (George Lucas literally pitched the sequel trilogy as being about Luke secluding himself on an island due to dark side temptations, becoming a hermit and finding redemption from his despair through training a new young female in the ways of the force, this is not up for debate he even provided concept art for the island that was in large parts used) or "THE FORCE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY" when how the force works changes all the time in every film, every single OT film has new force powers without explanation... blah blah blah.
I don't care about "canon", rules or what that idiot George Lucas would do. There is basic script writing, things you don't do. You don't override logic just to subvert expectations. It's ok to have Luke hide away from the Force, but at least write something that's lines up in some way to one of the most well known and loved characters in cinema. Why characters do things in films is important, you know? Holdo, what the fuck?

There are so many things that could have been done better, that should have been spotted - at least Mark Hamill spotted them - but they should've been spotted by one of the producers, and they should've just thought about what all this was really doing.

Boyega wasn't great in TFA but he was wasted in TLJ and he's right in his criticism of it. You needed the trio of new characters together in order for them to really gel with the audience. How come I care more about the side characters in the latest episode of The Mandalorian than I do about Rey, Finn and whatss his name?
 
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I don't care about "canon", rules or what that idiot George Lucas would do. There is basic script writing, things you don't do. You don't override logic just to subvert expectations. It's ok to have Luke hide away from the Force, but at least write something that's lines up in some way to one of the most well known and loved characters in cinema. Why characters do things in films is important, you know? Holdo, what the fuck?

There are so many things that could have been done better, that should have been spotted - at least Mark Hamill spotted them - but they should've been spotted by one of the producers, and they should've just thought about what all this was really doing.

Boyega wasn't great in TFA but he was wasted in TLJ and he's right in his criticism of it. You needed the trio of new characters together in order for them to really gel with the audience. How come I care more about the side characters in the latest episode of The Mandalorian than I do about Rey, Finn and whatss his name?
Yeah and he had really interesting reasons for why he became a hermit, tbh. Not sure what you're asking by just mentioning Holdo and saying WTF, btw.

Yeah, people need to drop this Mark Hamill spotted them thing, he went on to say he was wrong, Johnson was right about everything and the film is among the greats of all time. It's all in the video I linked.

It's not a script error that Boyega has a lesser role in TLJ, the important thing was that his character developed, not his plot function. A script for a movie doesn't require a trio being together, in ESB they split up at the start and don't reunite until the end, you're citing imaginary script-writing rules. I don't know why you care more about one character than another, you seem awfully poor at articulating why you think the things you do.
 
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#Phonepunk#

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That said other people have argued this better than me...
oh god, this insufferable guy? please people, don't post this TLJ defense video here. this is a pro-Fandom Menace thread.

it's typical though. the guy in the video is super aggressively and mad and angry. it isn't about how TLJ is good, doesn't discuss camerwork or lighting, it's just a rant against HATERs. right from the start it's super defensive. 3 minutes in he's parodying people complaining about Empire.

sorry bud, that's not film criticism. that is whining about audience reaction. he's annoying as fuck and infinitely more toxic of an approach than, say, Mauler.
 
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oh god, this insufferable guy? please people, don't post this TLJ defense video here. this is a pro-Fandom Menace thread.

it's typical though. the guy in the video is super aggressively and mad and angry. it isn't about how TLJ is good, doesn't discuss camerwork or lighting, it's just a rant against HATERs.

he's annoying as fuck and infinitely more toxic of an approach than, say, Mauler.
Are you sure you watched the video? There's not much angry or toxic at all about the video and he does discuss what makes it good, (hint hint it's more than camera work and lighting). I won't argue how he compares to MauLer because it'd require me to sit through 9 hours of video to find out if you're right, but I'm gonna say that many hours on one movie is kinda toxic.
 

#Phonepunk#

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Did ..... did any of you watch episode 4 and 5?
i'm ignoring content by you and unignored to check out what you are saying in my thread. can you please cut it with this condescending bullshit? not sure if you can ban people from threads. anyone? can i ban a specific person? this is supposed to be about the Fandom Menace not some die hard who can't deal with people having different opinions on movies? i put you on ignored months ago cos i didn't want to relitigate the OT, yet here you are again, dragging Luke's journey through the mud. can't you make your own "OT was never that good" thread?
Are you sure you watched the video? There's not much angry or toxic at all about the video
well i clicked on the video and looked at it with my eyes and listened with my ears. not sure what the fuck you wantr from me. 3 minutes in that Empire montage annoyed the fuck out of me. i'm sorry, i went into the video thinking i was going to learn about filmcraft of the masterwork or something, not to rehash superficial message board arguments. before 3 minutes were up i had heard just about every strawman argument over the past 2 years.

it's so tiring, the same old fucking bad faith arguments. "DID YOU ACTUALLY WATCH STAR WARS"

come up with a better argument than "I am a better SW consumer than you"
 
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i'm ignoring content by you and unignored to check out what you are saying in my thread. can you please cut it with this condescending bullshit? not sure if you can ban people from threads. anyone? can i ban a specific person? this is supposed to be about the Fandom Menace not some die hard who can't deal with people having different opinions on movies.

well i clicked on the video and looked at it with my eyes and listened with my ears. not sure what the fuck you wantr from me. 3 minutes in that Empire montage annoyed the fuck out of me. i went into the video thinking i was going to learn about filmcraft of the masterwork or something. before 3 minutes were up i had heard just about every strawman argument over the past 2 years.

it's so tiring, the same old fucking bad faith arguments. "DID YOU ACTUALLY WATCH STAR WARS"

come up with a better argument than "I am a better SW consumer than you"
I'm not sure straw man is applicable when the critiques TLJ got tend to be similar from every person putting them forward. Like how do you straw man an entire group of people, exactly? If what he's saying doesn't apply to you then why worry? The video isn't about there being no good argument against TLJ (if you sit through the whole thing he even gets into things he didn't like about it) it's assailing certain prevalent arguments among the fandom, so you either disagree that these are things complained about by the fandom or have some kind of weird persecution complex. It's no more toxic than if I made a video expressing my reactions to the main critiques of Prometheus and citing them as being things like "guy pets alien snake" or "they run in a straight line from ship falling" like it's kind of hard to deny certain critiques get parroted more often than others about certain movies, isn't it?

What's more in bad faith btw than discrediting a video you didn't finish? For instance he brings up a lack of awareness of these problems existing in the OT not to say he's a better consumer of SW but because so many people attacking TLJ are doing it on the ideas of how wrong it is as a Star Wars film, they often prop themselves up as being true Star Wars fans and that's why these things bothered them so much. Again, if that doesn't apply to you why are you upset?
 
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#Phonepunk#

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the critiques TLJ got tend to be similar from every person putting them forward
i mean this is the definition of strawman, assuming a critique, then thinking it is literally true. "from every person putting them forward"
you either disagree that these are things complained about by the fandom or have some kind of weird persecution complex.
so i either agree with you or have "some kind of weird persecution complex" LOL so now i have to defend against this complex you have diagnosed me for? because i won't watch your video all the way through? LOL yeah not toxic at all =)

putting you on ignore as well. sorry, man, i don't have time or patience to argue some third person's view on a movie against you. i don't have the patience to be questioned if i am being hypocrticial or not by liking the OT and not the ST. if you want to do a thread on this amazing video, go for it. please keep it out of my thread on the FANDOM MENACE.
 
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i mean this is the definition of strawman, assuming a critique, then thinking it is literally true. "from every person putting them forward"


so i either agree with you or have "some kind of weird persecution complex" LOL so now i have to defend against this complex you have diagnosed me for? because i won't watch your video all the way through? LOL yeah not toxic at all =)
putting you on ignore as well. sorry, man, i don't have time or patience to argue some third person's view on a movie against you. i don't have the patience to be questioned if i am being hypocrticial or not by liking the OT and not the ST. if you want to do a thread on this amazing video, go for it. please keep it out of my thread on the FANDOM MENACE.
Then your OP is also a straw man, dude. I also used the key words "tend to be" language is important.

I can edit my posts too! I'm trying to get why you called it a straw man when he's not addressing anyone in specific, I get the feeling if someone said "the left tends to promote pro-choice stances" you'd yell it was a straw man. I also didn't diagnose you with a persecution complex, I gave you options but the one you went for is that you're being toxically attacked in your precious thread and need to put people on ignore to have a safe space. What was it you were saying on page 1 about how tone deaf Resetera people were about creating echo chambers while you whine anyone has anything to say to disagree with you in this thread?
 
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sol_bad

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Most criticisms I've seen for the script come from people who learned what plot holes and deus ex machinas were from Cinema Sins and have no real depth of thought on what makes a good script. Most the arguments against the film are asinine things like "MUH LUKE WOULDN'T DO THAT" (George Lucas literally pitched the sequel trilogy as being about Luke secluding himself on an island due to dark side temptations, becoming a hermit and finding redemption from his despair through training a new young female in the ways of the force, this is not up for debate he even provided concept art for the island that was in large parts used) or "THE FORCE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY" when how the force works changes all the time in every film, every single OT film has new force powers without explanation and they're always there to advance the story, the force is a convenient plot device to tell such a grand story and no film should be bound by made up rules for it (and yes, any rules you found on Wookiepedia or in the EU are not Lucas' rules, he is quoted as saying the EU is a different world from his that he doesn't care about) or "SNOKE NO BACKSTORY" which is funny considering the Emperor and Vader had very little for back stories before the prequels came into existence close to 20 years after the OT ended, these same people would be crying that Return of the Jedi ended without explaining what happened to Vader to leave him scarred and in that armor had it released today. That said other people have argued this better than me...

I've seen a lot of good and bad points of view for Last Jedi but this is hands down the best video I have seen yet. Everything about it is so well articulated.

i'm ignoring content by you and unignored to check out what you are saying in my thread. can you please cut it with this condescending bullshit? not sure if you can ban people from threads. anyone? can i ban a specific person? this is supposed to be about the Fandom Menace not some die hard who can't deal with people having different opinions on movies? i put you on ignored months ago cos i didn't want to relitigate the OT, yet here you are again, dragging Luke's journey through the mud. can't you make your own "OT was never that good" thread?
LMAO
I can't deal with other peoples opinions? You are obviously the one that can't handle it because you put people on ignore to make your personal chamber safe. I don't put anyone on ignore.
Not even my good buddy O oagboghi2 .
 
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#Phonepunk#

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the Fandom Menace is not about harassing people, it is not even about liking or disliking TLJ, it is purely about putting a spotlight on the idea that if you don't like the movie, you are this toxic misogynist racist. it is about calling this myth out for the bullshit it is, and saying what you think. we believe in free speech here in the USA.

this myth should be dead and burying by now BTW. the Fandom Menace has won. JJ Abrams declared "people don't go Star Wars to be told 'this doesn't matter'". John Boyega has called the movie "iffy" and Daisey Ridley has kept herself at arms length. it is now acceptable to say critical things against this movie.

or at least it should be. we saw that even being the director, or a woman or POC actor, none of this will stop stans from calling them "shitty" and "unprofessional" for having an opinion ON SOMETHING THEY MADE. witnessed all the Twitter toxicity thrown at John as a reporter misinterpereted a thing he said to try and start shit with his POC castmember, who has already been trying to keep off the radar.

the reporter themselves & the Twitter SJWs tried to start additional drama for KMT, all under the guise of "shining a light on toxic fandom". if we are taking KMT's account seriously then this was highly irresponsible. the narrative was set ever since Boyega threw shade at the idea of being demoted to TV and streaming service fanbois lashed out. Boyega has been in a tornado for several years, he's trying to keep his head straight, and under this immense pressure. to go and get mad at him for having problems with a film he put his life into, is supremely entitled bullshit of the highest order. for shame. this is how strong the cult is. they will reject their own progressive politics in order to defend Rian.
 
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the Fandom Menace is not about harassing people, it is not even about liking or disliking TLJ, it is purely about putting a spotlight on the idea that if you don't like the movie, you are this toxic misogynist racist. it is about calling this myth out for the bullshit it is, and saying what you think. we believe in free speech here in the USA.

this myth should be dead and burying by now BTW. the Fandom Menace has won. JJ Abrams declared "people don't go Star Wars to be told 'this doesn't matter'". John Boyega has called the movie "iffy" and Daisey Ridley has kept herself at arms length. it is now acceptable to say critical things against this movie.

or at least it should be. we saw that even being the director, or a woman or POC actor, none of this will stop stans from calling them "shitty" and "unprofessional" for having an opinion ON SOMETHING THEY MADE. witnessed all the Twitter toxicity thrown at John as a reporter misinterpereted a thing he said to try and start shit with his POC castmember, who has already been trying to keep off the radar.

the reporter themselves & the Twitter SJWs tried to start additional drama for KMT, all under the guise of "shining a light on toxic fandom". if we are taking KMT's account seriously then this was highly irresponsible. the narrative was set ever since Boyega threw shade at the idea of being demoted to TV and streaming service fanbois lashed out. Boyega has been in a tornado for several years, he's trying to keep his head straight, and under this immense pressure. to go and get mad at him for having problems with a film he put his life into, is supremely entitled bullshit of the highest order. for shame. this is how strong the cult is. they will reject their own progressive politics in order to defend Rian.
I mean you're mad at a straw man of your opposition who you believe is straw manning their opposition. Who are these people that actually believe disliking TLJ makes you a toxic misogynist racist? It's nice you believe in free speech while putting counter-arguments on ignore, though.

I didn't know the myth existed, tbh. Seems like a vague JJ quote. I think a lot of the things Boyega says and does are iffy, like getting so drunk he forgot he left a script under his bed but I mean whatever. I don't know what Daisy Ridley keeping herself at arms length means. How does it validate anything? Does it validate your spooky phantoms that she quit social media? If it doesn't then why is her "staying at arm's length" mean she has negative thoughts about TLJ? It was always acceptable to say critical things against the movie, though. The only thing not being accepted in your thread so far is people disagreeing with you.

I don't consider race or gender a shield from criticism. I also don't consider the author the end all be all of a piece of content as much as there even is an author for a collaborative project like a film.

Now you're sort of talking about specific people but I don't really know who you mean because you're talking like we should already know what you mean. Like I don't know what KMT stands for, for instance. Lots of fandoms are considered toxic, tbh I'd say the one responsible for things like people abandoning social media and contemplating suicide and even getting George Lucas to say "why would I make another? for people to yell at me?" can probably sit somewhere on that list of "toxic" fandoms but it's a generalization because talking about a fandom has to be a generalization. I consider myself a Star Wars fan and have never felt impugned by someone else calling the fandom toxic, for instance.
 
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The video mostly argues that many of the characters, concepts and themes we see in the ST are consistent with the older movies. The guy hardly ever talks about what makes the movies themselves good though.

For example, he examines Luke's character in depth. His personality, strengths and flaws, joruney, struggle and victory are all covered. It's great.
But he never does the same for Rey's. That's because his scope is limited. He examines Luke, to explain why his appearance in TLJ makes sense. He doesn't take the logical next step though, to compare and contrast our old hero with our new heroine; Rey. If he'd done that, he probably would have come to the realization that Rey's just not as compelling a character. She has no flaws, doesn't learn or change and that makes her boring. If the original Star Wars' best achievement was doing the hero's journey on a grand scale, then what doe he make of the ST, which doesn't even have a hero's journey? If TLJ is so consistent with the OT's themes, how come its most important theme is thrown out the window? He talks about having a permanent solution to the force problem, but that would mean no more movies. Disney wants to make endless sequels of new Jedi and Sith fighting, because that's what these films are about. By definition there can be no permanent solution. There always has to be a struggle between light and dark.
 
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The video mostly argues that many of the characters, concepts and themes we see in the ST are consistent with the older movies. The guy hardly ever talks about what makes the movies themselves good though.

For example, he examines Luke's character in depth. His personality, strengths and flaws, joruney, struggle and victory are all covered. It's great.
But he never does the same for Rey's. That's because his scope is limited. He examines Luke, to explain why his appearance in TLJ makes sense. He doesn't take the logical next step though, to compare and contrast our old hero with our new heroine; Rey. If he'd done that, he probably would have come to the realization that Rey's just not as compelling a character. She has no flaws, doesn't learn or change and that makes her boring. If the original Star Wars' best achievement was doing the hero's journey on a grand scale, then what doe he make of the ST, which doesn't even have a hero's journey? If TLJ is so consistent with the OT's themes, how come its most important theme is thrown out the window? He talks about having a permanent solution to the force problem, but that would mean no more movies. Disney wants to make endless sequels of new Jedi and Sith fighting, because that's what these films are about. By definition there can be no permanent solution. There always has to be a struggle between light and dark.
But he does talk about her, and shows clips about her, her biggest flaw was her need for some kind of parents special or otherwise to make her feel special when she needed to do it on her own. As Luke points out she goes straight for the dark side on the island because she's that desperate for answers about where she comes from when it shouldn't change who she is. Needing someone to connect to lets her believe Kylo is that someone, and she enters a trap. Luke's flaws were impatience and never thinking about the present, he also goes right into a trap due to these character flaws. He wasn't talking a permanent solution for everything but he is talking about a re-evaluation of what balancing the force means, something touched in in many EU novels, actually and it certainly didn't end the ability to tell stories for the Jedi to change and view the force differently. Did the existence of grey Jedi end all stories or something? How is the theme of the movie that things must end when the people claiming that are either villainous or realize they were wrong by the end?
 
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But he does talk about her, and shows clips about her
Not really. He shows her in the context of explaining Luke's character in TLJ. He doesn't talk about Rey herself all that much.

her biggest flaw was her need for some kind of parents special or otherwise to make her feel special when she needed to do it on her own. As Luke points out she goes straight for the dark side on the island because she's that desperate for answers about where she comes from when it shouldn't change who she is. Needing someone to connect to lets her believe Kylo is that someone, and she enters a trap.
Yeah that's just not terribly convincing or engaging. Luke is a pretty simplistic protagonist. He doesn't understand the force and the universe, so we're allowed to learn with him. We identify with him because we discover and grow together. No one relates themselves to Rey. Rey's only flaw is her mommy/daddy issues, which don't seem to hold her back at all. She still succeeds at everything she does. When Luke fell in a trap, he lost his hand, and his friend was captured by the Empire. When Rey falls in a trap, she fights her way out easily and rejoins her friends, all of whom are safe and sound. Rey's 'failure' holds no consequences at all. Nothing about Rey has changed between TFA and TLJ. She is exactly the same character with zero transformation.

He wasn't talking a permanent solution for everything but he is talking about a re-evaluation of what balancing the force means
He literally says that we need "a more permanent solution" for the force issue. Star Wars is a children's movie about two people clashing swords. Disney probably doesn't want their future films to be constrained to "grey jedi." The last movie will probably confirm that, when it throws everything away TLJ established.

How is the theme of the movie that things must end when the people claiming that are either villainous or realize they were wrong by the end?
I guess I'd chalk that up to the ST's bad writing.
 

#Phonepunk#

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Demanding films “be consistent” is sort of being a pendant about canon and narrative. I have no interest in whether it is consistent w the OT that’s not my complaint. If anything it is too much a giant OT ripoff with little new to say other than vague postmodern posturing.
So far I have yet to see a calm rational TLJ analysis that talked about classical film school criticism, camerawork, lighting, direction, etc. they are all laser focused on the meta. Nobody talks about the text. it’s just endless Reeeing about people not liking it.

I suspect that’s a large part of its appeal. It’s baked into TLJ by design. Look at the salt scene. Would anybody just taste the dirt like that? No. It’s a meta Twitter post in a movie. It’s a Twitter post of a movie. This is why KK said it “keeps it relevant” these people think Twitter is the center of the world so no wonder they like him.
 
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Not really. He shows her in the context of explaining Luke's character in TLJ. He doesn't talk about Rey herself all that much.


Yeah that's just not terribly convincing or engaging. Luke is a pretty simplistic protagonist. He doesn't understand the force and the universe, so we're allowed to learn with him. We identify with him because we discover and grow together. No one relates themselves to Rey. Rey's only flaw is her mommy/daddy issues, which don't seem to hold her back at all. She still succeeds at everything she does. When Luke fell in a trap, he lost his hand, and his friend was captured by the Empire. When Rey falls in a trap, she fights her way out easily and rejoins her friends, all of whom are safe and sound. Rey's 'failure' holds no consequences at all. Nothing about Rey has changed between TFA and TLJ. She is exactly the same character with zero transformation.


He literally says that we need "a more permanent solution" for the force issue. Star Wars is a children's movie about two people clashing swords. Disney probably doesn't want their future films to be constrained to "grey jedi." The last movie will probably confirm that, when it throws everything away TLJ established.


I guess I'd chalk that up to the ST's bad writing.
How much does he need to talk about her?

We learn with Rey who she is, though, part of why people had trouble with the "subversion" that her parents weren't special was their investment in her journey to find out. No one relates themselves to Rey feels like a weird claim you couldn't possibly back up, btw. What was successful about what happened in the throne room beyond her escaping? Her big success was simply surviving the encounter. I guess they could have had her lose a hand but wouldn't that just be copying what already occurred? Her friends are safe and sound? They've been dwindled down to nothing by the First Order, the only reason they have any hope of coming back is because what Luke did has inspired more people. But she isn't the same character, she's no longer worried about someone else making her special, she's become self-reliant, not unlike how Luke is at the start of Jedi, now seemingly confident and even at times arrogant.

"More permanent" not permanent. They have a wildly successful show currently airing that is barely about Jedi so far, though.

I'm sure you would.

To the person who allegedly put me on ignore I'm not sure why you're asking for an analysis regarding things like camerawork, lighting or direction? These are things that pretty much got praised consistently since the film's release by most critics and most arguments I've seen against it have nothing to do with these aspects so why does it need to be debated? Do you have an argument for what's wrong with such aspects? Would anyone taste salt? I dunno would the Death Star have a trash compactor? Asking questions like that is so tedious. I will say dealing with the haters is a constant paradox, the film is either too much like the OT or too little like them depending on the person, almost a litmus test that says more about the person viewing it than the film.
 
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GreyHorace

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Demanding films “be consistent” is sort of being a pendant about canon and narrative. I have no interest in whether it is consistent w the OT that’s not my complaint. If anything it is too much a giant OT ripoff with little new to say other than vague postmodern posturing.
This is the hilarious thing about the sequel trilogy to me. They claim to want to try new things but they keep lifting scenes from the original trilogy. I could forgive it in The Force Awakens because they were trying to ease fans back in to the franchise with something familiar. But in The Last Jedi? That movie alone has a bunch of copycat scenes like:

- Rey's training under Luke (Luke training with Yoda in Dagobah)
- Rey in the Dark Side hole (Luke in the Dark Side cave)
- The First Order pursuing the last of the Resistance (The Empire pursuing the Falcon)
- Rey brought before Supreme Leader Snoke by Kylo Ren (Luke brought before Palpatine by Vader)
- Kylo betraying Snoke and saving Rey (Vader betraying Palapatine and saving Luke)
- The last of the Resistance facing off against the First Order on the salt planet (The rebellion facing off against the Empire on Hoth)

The Last Jedi I think is very similar to another scifi film that tried to use nostalgia as a crutch in lieu of actual storytelling, Star Trek Into Darkness. Curiously it was directed by JJ Abrams, who's now helming the final film in this new trilogy. Given how he bungled bringing back a classic villain in the other big scifi property, I don't have high hopes he'll have learned his lesson.
 

sol_bad

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So far I have yet to see a calm rational TLJ analysis that talked about classical film school criticism, camerawork, lighting, direction, etc. they are all laser focused on the meta. Nobody talks about the text. it’s just endless Reeeing about people not liking it.
But the videos you post on this forum never talk about actual film making techniques either. Also, JJ and Rian are known within the industry as great film directors.
 
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How much does he need to talk about her?
As much as he did about Luke, obviously. She's the main heroine of the ST after all. Heck, he could've talked about ANY of the new characters. He didn't really though, because they suck. He probably realized he couldn't make the film look good by its own merits.

We learn with Rey who she is, though, part of why people had trouble with the "subversion" that her parents weren't special was their investment in her journey to find out.
That's just her backstory. Luke learns so much more than just that in TESB.

Her friends are safe and sound? They've been dwindled down to nothing by the First Order, the only reason they have any hope of coming back is because what Luke did has inspired more people.
None of the bad things that happened in TLJ are a result of Rey's actions. Luke's failure actually means something. Rey's doesn't. That's the point.

But she isn't the same character, she's no longer worried about someone else making her special, she's become self-reliant
She was always self-reliant. Nothing has changed. Luke was not self-reliant at the end of ep 5 by the way. He still very much needed help and guidance. In fact, he was at his lowes point at the end of that film. That's why people empathize with him on his journey. Because we see his struggle and we can relate, and we want him to succeed. Another stark contrast between the two characters, that would have been interesting to point out in the video!
 
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As much as he did about Luke, obviously. She's the main heroine of the ST after all. Heck, he could've talked about ANY of the new characters. He didn't really though, because they suck. He probably realized he couldn't make the film look good by its own merits.


That's just her backstory. Luke learns so much more than just that in TESB.


None of the bad things that happened in TLJ are a result of Rey's actions. Luke's failure actually means something. Rey's doesn't. That's the point.


She was always self-reliant. Nothing has changed. Luke was not self-reliant at the end of ep 5 by the way. He still very much needed help and guidance. In fact, he was at his lowes point at the end of that film. That's why people empathize with him on his journey. Because we see his struggle and we can relate, and we want him to succeed. Another stark contrast between the two characters, that would have been interesting to point out in the video!
It's a video addressing specific critiques, though, it isn't his personal review of the film.

What Luke learns is technically back story, though.

Han Solo getting caught had nothing to do with Luke's failure either, though, he was caught either way. Yoda's advice was NOT to go help him because he felt Luke was unprepared to learn the truth about his parentage.

The entire resistance is at a low point at the end of TLJ and I don't understand what you mean by always self-reliant? The film openly criticizes her choices, she followed Solo and then Luke because she's constantly seeking guidance and not trusting her own feelings. Your idea of Rey having a high point was lifting some rocks so the final remnants of the Resistance can survive in a state with seemingly no hope except in the possibility their actions inspired more. The point was to parallel her to Kylo, they both sought someone who was in a similar plight, but what makes Kylo the villain is his desire to destroy the past entirely, and what makes Rey the hero is her ability to recognize which parts are useful and which parts we can learn from. Unlike the OT the ST is as much about Kylo's inner turmoil as Rey's, neither one has a real victory at the end, though Kylo has smashed the Resistance into nearly nothing he hasn't gotten what he actually wants and though Rey has a firmer grasp on her place in the world how to fix it is a seemingly impossible task set before her now.
 
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#Phonepunk#

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part of why people had trouble with the "subversion" that her parents weren't special
one of the main reasons i dislike the movie, this line is too meta, it is a surprise for fans, not a surprise for her.

when Rian Johnson talks about it, he said "It was the hardest thing in the world for her to hear" that her parents aren't famous. this seems pretty dumb to me. she was never hoping her parents were famous in the last movie. she was just wishing they would come back, whoever they were. the only people hoping they were famous were fans and theory crafters.

of course this is a shock for fans who thought she would have famous parentage. but what about those who didn't? they don't matter, the film isn't written for them, it is for the specific fans who have the specific theory that he is shooting down. everyone else is kind of ignored.

so there is a specific intended audience for that line. the characters are not even speaking to their own pre-established desires, they are simply mouthpieces for Rian to address fans directly. it's a pandering or manipulative way of writing a film, and it ends up making the whole thing feel very hollow and intentional.
 
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It's a video addressing specific critiques, though, it isn't his personal review of the film.
One of the biggest and most controversial complaints is that Rey would be a Mary Sue. Some even claim this opinion is rooted in sexism. Somehow he doesn't address that point, despite it being one of the most important. Just seems a bit too convenient to be a coincidence.

Han Solo getting caught had nothing to do with Luke's failure either, though, he was caught either way. Yoda's advice was NOT to go help him because he felt Luke was unprepared to learn the truth about his parentage.
Despite discouraging him to do so, Yoda literally tells Luke he could help his friends if he went to Cloud City. They're obviously connected.

The entire resistance is at a low point at the end of TLJ
Yeah but we're talking about Rey here!

I don't understand what you mean by always self-reliant?
How is she not self-reliant? She doesn't need anyone to help her, because anything she attempts to do she's just naturally good at. She's good at piloting, engineering, fighting, using the Force, and no one teaches her any of these skills or helps her with them. She never fails at any task she decides to do and when she does there's absolutely no consequences. Of course she's self-reliant.

The film openly criticizes her choices, she followed Solo and then Luke because she's constantly seeking guidance and not trusting her own feelings.
The film never criticizes anything she does. How was her following Solo, who had connections to the Resistance, a bad thing? How was her seeking out Luke, which everyone was trying to do and was literally the entire point of the first film, a bad thing?

I just don't think we're going to agree here. Seems like you've a lot more slack to give to these movies than I. Besides, we're kind of hijacking a thread that's about something else. It's not really about Star Wars itself, but rather the response to the fans' response to these new movies and everything surrounding it.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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one of the main reasons i dislike the movie, this line is too meta, it is a surprise for fans, not a surprise for her.

when Rian Johnson talks about it, he said "It was the hardest thing in the world for her to hear" that her parents aren't famous. this seems pretty dumb to me. she was never hoping her parents were famous in the last movie. she was just wishing they would come back, whoever they were. the only people hoping they were famous were fans and theory crafters.

of course this is a shock for fans who thought she would have famous parentage. but what about those who didn't? they don't matter, the film isn't written for them, it is for the specific fans who have the specific theory that he is shooting down. everyone else is kind of ignored.

so there is a specific intended audience for that line. the characters are not even speaking to their own pre-established desires, they are simply mouthpieces for Rian to address fans directly. it's a pandering or manipulative way of writing a film, and it ends up making the whole thing feel very hollow and intentional.
Someone hoping your parents really care about you and are special finding out they're nobodies who sold her for booze money or whatever would be pretty crushing honestly, like maybe human psychology is tough for you guys but if anyone in the real world figured that out they wouldn't be like "well at least they weren't movie stars, then I'd REALLY be crushed".

One of the biggest and most controversial complaints is that Rey would be a Mary Sue. Some even claim this opinion is rooted in sexism. Somehow he doesn't address that point, despite it being one of the most important. Just seems a bit too convenient to be a coincidence.


Despite discouraging him to do so, Yoda literally tells Luke he could help his friends if he went to Cloud City. They're obviously connected.


Yeah but we're talking about Rey here!


How is she not self-reliant? She doesn't need anyone to help her, because anything she attempts to do she's just naturally good at. She's good at piloting, engineering, fighting, using the Force, and no one teaches her any of these skills or helps her with them. She never fails at any task she decides to do and when she does there's absolutely no consequences. Of course she's self-reliant.


The film never criticizes anything she does. How was her following Solo, who had connections to the Resistance, a bad thing? How was her seeking out Luke, which everyone was trying to do and was literally the entire point of the first film, a bad thing?

I just don't think we're going to agree here. Seems like you've a lot more slack to give to these movies than I. Besides, we're kind of hijacking a thread that's about something else. It's not really about Star Wars itself, but rather the response to the fans' response to these new movies and everything surrounding it.
The Mary Sue stuff was a bigger complaint about TFA, since TLJ adequately explored her flaws in comparison it really isn't the most pressing critique to go after.

You might not be remembering the Yoda scene well.

Yoda:
Luke! You must complete the training.

Luke Skywalker:
I can't keep the vision out of my head. They're my friends. I've gotta help them.

Yoda:
You must not go!

Luke:
But Han and Leia will die if I don't.

Obi-Wan Kenobi:
You don't know that. [appears in spirit] Even Yoda cannot see their fate.

Luke:
But I can help them! I feel the Force!

Obi-Wan:
But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.

Yoda:
Yes, yes! To Obi-Wan you listen. The cave! Remember your failure at the cave!

Luke:
But I've learned so much since then. Master Yoda, I promise to return and finish what I've begun. You have my word.

Obi-Wan:
It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer.

Luke:
That's why I have to go.

Obi-Wan:
Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader.

Luke:
You won't.

Yoda:
Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.

Obi-Wan:
Patience!

Luke:
And sacrifice Han and Leia?

Yoda:
If you honor what they fight for, yes!

Obi-Wan:
If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.

Luke:
I understand. R2, fire up the converters.

Obi-Wan:
Luke. Don't give in to hate. That leads to the Dark Side.

Yoda:
Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.

Luke:
I will and I'll return. I promise. [flies off with X-Wing]

Yoda:
Told you I did. Reckless is he. Now matters are worse.

Obi-Wan:
That boy is our last hope.

Yoda:
No. There is another.

How is Rey a disconnected entity from the resistance? What is she without a real army?

What is Luke not good at in the OT, btw? What skill does he not very quickly get good at or already know how to do? You guys see character flaws in terms of who wins fights or who can do cool tricks and fix things, not the actual psychological flaws that matter and it's really weird.

The film criticizes those things regardless of whether you feel they were bad decisions. When Luke asks why she's there she can't answer, she has no defined purpose, Kylo even straight up tells her it's her greatest weakness! This is in the text!

I don't care about hijacking a thread, I feel like it isn't hijacking anyways, he's defending these personalities as just being pedantic nitpickers when to me that shit is legitimately cancerous.
 
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