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Opinion Analysis The Future of PC Gaming and PCIe 5.0

Mar 23, 2018
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I've been having good chats here and there with @VFXVeteran but made this thread to avoid unnecessarily derailing other threads like R&C.

He thinks that Horizon II: Forbidden West would run faster and better on high end PC at least (let's say RTX 3090 and 6800-6900XT for having 16-24GB VRAM, doesn't mean the rest won't), and I agree with him due to it being already designed with HDD/PS4 in mind, same goes to Spider-man MM and all crossgen. I would as well agree with Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart if the developer would code the game to have let's say 7GB/s NVMe m.2 SSD and 16GB RAM to feed the 16-24GB VRAM's quickly and efficiently by predicting the next set of assets sitting around in the traditional RAM that PS5 and consoles lack.



These specs are extremely higher than the norm, something less than 1%. Still, with that I won't expect the exact UE5 demo to run smoothly on PC because I'm expecting the assets are just too large and unrealistic for gaming as it was 8K RAW Z-Brush, Cinema-level assets, not even gaming 8K assets. But would you see something undistinguishable from that at a much higher compression and smaller assets? Yes. Same goes to PS5 as well with Oodle Texture as those we're losslessly streamed at an average of 9GB/s, not 17GB/s average (22GB/s max).

With Nvidia deciding to mimic I/O decompression by brute forcing it with its generous TF, I can expect future graphics cards to have Kraken/ZLIB decompression blocks on board as a mandatory. With PCIe 5.0 we're talking about 16GB/s NVMe SSD m.2 speeds, and whether SSD providers will learn from Sony's proprietary SSD controller that has 6 priority levels (6 orders simultatiously) vs only 2 on current NVMe m.2 SSD's, we should expect PC gaming and PS5 to have photorealism comfortably.



Then creativity will remain the key, but we should as well expect more indies to let go the pathetic 8-bit-like gaming and go head-to-head with some AAA games, offering a wide variety of unique experiences that have AAA feeling. We are already seeing that to some extent with games like Kena, Quantom Error, and many other games that surfaced lately.

My next PC build will be when PCIe 5.0 is available, not necessarily for gaming but gaming-ready. By that time I hope 10TB+ SATA3 SSD's are becoming as expensive as 10TB HDD today because I will not buy HDD's ever and need more TB's for videography. Buying the 8TB Samsung SSD later anyway at $800 for a total of 11TB, and more later if needed:


Ok I don't want this to turn into a wall-of-text. Hope we enjoy the discussions/speculations.

About pci-e:

PCI-E 5.0 is beyond useless and i will explain why.

A PCIe 3.0 X16 interface offers a total bandwidth of 16 GBps, nobody stops u from slamming one in a gpu slot. ( not realistic )

If nvidia and amd wanted too, they could sell a SSD in the form of a GPU that is connected through sli/crossfire with the main gpu. They don't.

Then about the PS5.

It doesn't matter what the PS5 uses. The weakest link is the focus and that's the xbox series X which sits at 2,4gbps and that's why directstorage is going to focus on 3.0 on PC. and that's also where sony will get limited by.

What microsoft does to up that 2,4gbps isn't much interesting as its all software which also can done on PC and PS5 as result. So 2.4gbps is the number here.

This is why i stated at the reveal of the boxes with information, that the PS5 SSD is total overkill for next generation and simple not well designed as result even while its superior towards the xbox series X.

EU5:

With EU5 that means no game on it will require more then 2,4gbps to let it run or else EU5 will not be used. Which makes us come back to the UE5 demo showcase and why people shouting show me the numbers. They never did and frankly it makes no sense to optimize it for the PS5 ssd solution to start with.

Whatever microsoft is cooking, is going to be the standard if its easily implemented and actually add something.

GPU:

Nvdia could slam a nvenc type of solution on there gpu's if they wanted too, however it will exclude older gpu's which goes against the point for PC adoption, also AMD will have to use its own solution and would not want to alienate there 6000 gpu's.

This means the compression will be done software wise most likely and not hardware.
 
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Dream-Knife

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Actually lots of people do. Don't know where numbers are today, but integrated graphics have been a majority market-share even early last decade, when they were just first becoming 'good' with the likes of SandyBridge. If anything - I'd expect that to be bigger now with how far APUs have gotten since, and having dedicated PC gaming handhelds and the likes now, not just laptops.
Your mom playing a flash game on her $400 Dell or HP is different from someone running almost anything on Steam.

You only use an APU for two reasons:
1. Cost
2. Low power

Neither of these two things are a concern for the hardcore desktop market, the market that buys games beyond what a switch can play.
 
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Bo, you should seriously watch Linus apology to Epic about PS5 SSD. Summary: PS5 'lighting fast SSD' marvel is not about the SSD storage. It's about everything else: the custom I/O system, the hardware and all the software that remove all bottlenecks and latencies from SSD storage to video ram.

 

Bo_Hazem

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About pci-e:

PCI-E 5.0 is beyond useless and i will explain why.

A PCIe 3.0 X16 interface offers a total bandwidth of 16 GBps, nobody stops u from slamming one in a gpu slot.

If nvidia and amd wanted too, they could sell a SSD in the form of a GPU that is connected through sli/crossfire with the main gpu. They don't.

Then about the PS5.

It doesn't matter what the PS5 uses. The weakest link is the focus and that's the xbox series X which sits at 2,4gbps and that's why directstorage is going to focus on 3.0 on PC. and that's also where sony will get limited by.

What microsoft does to up that 2,4gbps isn't much interesting as its all software which also can done on PC and PS5 as result. So 2.4gbps is the number here.

This is why i stated at the reveal of the boxes with information, that the PS5 SSD is total overkill for next generation and simple not well designed as result even while its superior towards the xbox series X.

EU5:

With EU5 that means no game on it will require more then 2,4gbps to let it run or else EU5 will not be used. Which makes us come back to the UE5 demo showcase and why people shouting show me the numbers. They never did and frankly it makes no sense to optimize it for the PS5 ssd solution to start with.

Whatever microsoft is cooking, is going to be the standard if its easily implemented and actually add something.

GPU:

Nvdia could slam a nvenc type of solution on there gpu's if they wanted too, however it will exclude older gpu's which goes against the point for PC adoption, also AMD will have to use its own solution and would not want to alienate there 6000 gpu's.

This means the compression will be done software wise most likely and not hardware.

Could be for multiplats, but for UE5 it seems to be easily scaled down so that 2.4GB/s won't hinder higher bandwidth as it'll get what fits it. All your points are solid anyway.

Bo, you should seriously watch Linus apology to Epic about PS5 SSD. Summary: PS5 'lighting fast SSD' marvel is not about the SSD storage. It's about everything else: the custom I/O system, the hardware and all the software that remove all bottlenecks and latencies from SSD storage to video ram.


Yes, I know that. It'll take an extra work to code for RAM compensation on PC for such games, but UE5 demo is more than likely using unrealistic asset sizes that's beyond any developer will make, and being RAW as well. Rebirth being 530% smaller in scope and yet looks insanely good that most people will be happy with, or with even lesser than that because it was running at 1080p@60fps in realtime on 1080Ti.

Imagine if Bo put this much energy into something important. A cure for cancer could be around the corner.

Sadly, I don't have access to medical equipment or otherwise it'll take few months before the cancer cure is ready.
 
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Mar 23, 2018
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Bo, you should seriously watch Linus apology to Epic about PS5 SSD. Summary: PS5 'lighting fast SSD' marvel is not about the SSD storage. It's about everything else: the custom I/O system, the hardware and all the software that remove all bottlenecks and latencies from SSD storage to video ram.


He does this often, talks shit about stuff he doesn't understand. Has to be backed up by his employee's and then when everything collapses he tries to get the sympathy vote by making laughable video's like that.

Dude went off at epic and got schooled the next day and still pisses next towards the bottle.

The linus way.
 

ACESHIGH

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Other than I/O I expected APUs to be much better than what we currently have, at least from a graphics standpoint. I remember that in 2013 a high end Trinity APU like the A105800k could beat the ps3 and 360 and still have decent CPU performance for the time. You could even pair the APU with an AMD GPU to enable the Crossfire X functionality.

Today even the best APUs on the market can't even offer performance near a base PS4



I'll continue with my old machine until I see which HW we need to play proper next gen only games on PC. Not a fan of console walled gardens but these new machines pack a punch and at MSRP are a great deal if you are into consoles, most of all if you previously had a ps4 or an xbox one.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Other than I/O I expected APUs to be much better than what we currently have, at least from a graphics standpoint. I remember that in 2013 a high end Trinity APU like the A105800k could beat the ps3 and 360 and still have decent CPU performance for the time. You could even pair the APU with an AMD GPU to enable the Crossfire X functionality.

Today even the best APUs on the market can't even offer performance near a base PS4



I'll continue with my old machine until I see which HW we need to play proper next gen only games on PC. Not a fan of console walled gardens but these new machines pack a punch and at MSRP are a great deal if you are into consoles, most of all if you previously had a ps4 or an xbox one.

Man, I thought these APU's were more powerful! Maybe another smaller node to raise their power a bit at 3-5nm.
 
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theclaw135

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Bo, you should seriously watch Linus apology to Epic about PS5 SSD. Summary: PS5 'lighting fast SSD' marvel is not about the SSD storage. It's about everything else: the custom I/O system, the hardware and all the software that remove all bottlenecks and latencies from SSD storage to video ram.


If PC I/O is still slower in any way, it might be because 40 years of backwards compatibility isn't without downsides. x86 based consoles don't have to be "IBM compatible", they can shed the baggage that makes a PC a PC.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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If PC I/O is still slower in any way, it might be because 40 years of backwards compatibility isn't without downsides. x86 based consoles don't have to be "IBM compatible", they can shed the baggage that makes a PC a PC.

ARM is eating x86 slowly, it's only a matter of time before nVidia accelerates that.
 
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Fafalada

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Neither of these two things are a concern for the hardcore desktop market
I never argued otherwise - just saying hardcore desktop market is a fairly small part of the overall market (in terms of $ spend, not just raw user-numbers).

Also - a lot of Steam users (and other similar services) still play on integrated chipsets too, just spending time on different games.
Hell I have a powerful PC at home but I still give a fair bit of time to mobile Windows devices (and plan on eventually getting one of those handhelds).
 
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rnlval

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About pci-e:

PCI-E 5.0 is beyond useless and i will explain why.

A PCIe 3.0 X16 interface offers a total bandwidth of 16 GBps, nobody stops u from slamming one in a gpu slot. ( not realistic )

If nvidia and amd wanted too, they could sell a SSD in the form of a GPU that is connected through sli/crossfire with the main gpu. They don't.

Then about the PS5.

It doesn't matter what the PS5 uses. The weakest link is the focus and that's the xbox series X which sits at 2,4gbps and that's why directstorage is going to focus on 3.0 on PC. and that's also where sony will get limited by.

What microsoft does to up that 2,4gbps isn't much interesting as its all software which also can done on PC and PS5 as result. So 2.4gbps is the number here.

This is why i stated at the reveal of the boxes with information, that the PS5 SSD is total overkill for next generation and simple not well designed as result even while its superior towards the xbox series X.

EU5:

With EU5 that means no game on it will require more then 2,4gbps to let it run or else EU5 will not be used. Which makes us come back to the UE5 demo showcase and why people shouting show me the numbers. They never did and frankly it makes no sense to optimize it for the PS5 ssd solution to start with.

Whatever microsoft is cooking, is going to be the standard if its easily implemented and actually add something.

GPU:

Nvdia could slam a nvenc type of solution on there gpu's if they wanted too, however it will exclude older gpu's which goes against the point for PC adoption, also AMD will have to use its own solution and would not want to alienate there 6000 gpu's.

This means the compression will be done software wise most likely and not hardware.
For the CPU-to-GPU path,

PCI-e version 3.0 16 lanes offer 16 GBps, but PCI-e is a full-duplex interface, hence its total bandwidth is 32 GB/s.

PCI-e version 4.0 16 lanes offer 32 GBps, but PCI-e is a full-duplex interface, hence its total bandwidth is 64 GB/s.

PCI-e version 5.0 16 lanes offer 64 GBps, but PCI-e is a full-duplex interface, hence its total bandwidth is 128 GB/s.

On 18 June 2019, PCI-SIG announced the development of the PCI Express 6.0 specification.
 

rnlval

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I think PCIe 5.0 is coming pretty soon, something around 2022-2023 to see the first motherboard adoption.


I think that's already healthy. They're strong enough to last years to come already, if anything I think RDNA3 is needed to close the gap in the RT performance. I'm more than sure that next cards are considering decompressor blocks to directly feed the VRAM instead of the CPU to drastically lower the latency to its minimum. It'll be interesting to observe. Currently with PCIe 3.0, would've jumped to PCIe 4.0 if interested about gaming to get the latest and greatest, be it 3090 or 6900XT.
To reduce register storage stress, AMD needs to fully accelerate DXR's transverse workload and attach Tensor cores hence reducing the workload on the general shader cores (and general registers).

Sony's PS5 Zen 2 reduced FPU resource would need extra hardware such as DSP and hardware decompression.

Modern GPU already has texture compression formats and NVIDIA's DCC (delta color compression) is considered to be superior e.g. RTX 3070/RTX 3070 Ti's 256-bit bus doesn't need AMD's Infinity Cache transistor wastage.

AMD's Infinity Cache transistor usage was traded for weaker RT acceleration and zero Tensor cores.

RTX 3070 Ti would be NVIDIA's highest performing 256-bit bus-based GPU without Infinity Cache transistor wastage.
 
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rnlval

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If PC I/O is still slower in any way, it might be because 40 years of backwards compatibility isn't without downsides. x86 based consoles don't have to be "IBM compatible", they can shed the baggage that makes a PC a PC.
Based on PS4 Linux issues, it lacks Microsoft-defined APCI for ACPI HAL enabled normal Windows 7/8/10 boot.

For the Windows NT OS family, "IBM compatible" so-called AT HAL has been replaced by Microsoft-defined ACPI HAL.

To boot normal Windows 7/8/10, the recent Xbox Series X motherboard recycled for the PC market has Microsoft-defined ACPI in its firmware and disabled MS Xbox DRM.

The Xbox Series X APU recycled for the PC market is "AMD 4700S" which includes 10 GB 320 bit and 192 bit 6 GB GDDR6-14000 memory setup. AMD 4700S APU has disabled IGP.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Based on PS4 Linux issues, it lacks Microsoft-defined APCI for ACPI HAL enabled normal Windows 7/8/10 boot.

For the Windows NT OS family, "IBM compatible" so-called AT HAL has been replaced by Microsoft-defined ACPI HAL.

To boot normal Windows 7/8/10, the recent Xbox Series X motherboard recycled for the PC market has Microsoft-defined ACPI in its firmware and disabled MS Xbox DRM.

The Xbox Series X APU recycled for the PC market is "AMD 4700S" which includes 10 GB 320 bit and 192 bit 6 GB GDDR6-14000 memory setup. AMD 4700S APU has disabled IGP.

Stick around, couldn't understand most of what you've said but you're bringing a lot of interesting things to the table. I'll be an observant for the conversation.
 
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TonyK

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There is only one thing I want from PC fo return to it: a quick resume function. I hope Steam, or Windows, or an app or whatever, will allow this in PC. Meanwhile, I will continue in consoles.

The other day, for example, I was in the final boss of Resident Evil Village and my son called me. With quick resume/suspend mode I simply turn off the PS5 and attend my son. Later, I continued in the middle of the fight. For me that's more useful and relevant than 8K, 120fps or whatever technical advance. However, if PC incorporates it at some point, I will return to PC immediately.
 

Bo_Hazem

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There is only one thing I want from PC fo return to it: a quick resume function. I hope Steam, or Windows, or an app or whatever, will allow this in PC. Meanwhile, I will continue in consoles.

The other day, for example, I was in the final boss of Resident Evil Village and my son called me. With quick resume/suspend mode I simply turn off the PS5 and attend my son. Later, I continued in the middle of the fight. For me that's more useful and relevant than 8K, 120fps or whatever technical advance. However, if PC incorporates it at some point, I will return to PC immediately.

There is no quick resume on PS5 though unless you mean rest mode. Can't you use "sleep mode" on PC to do the same? Not sure myself because I don't play on my PC.
 

TonyK

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There is no quick resume on PS5 though unless you mean rest mode. Can't you use "sleep mode" on PC to do the same? Not sure myself because I don't play on my PC.
Yes, quick resume, rest mode, suspend mode... Name is not important, I refer to the possibility to stop a game in whatever point, even in middle of a cinematic, and continue later from that exact point. This function is present in all consoles (xbox, playstation and Nintendo consoles) since years ago.

And sadly, suspend mode in PC doesn't work in that way. I think it can't be so difficult to implement when all consoles do it, but I may be wrong and in PC would be a problem. But, for example, old games emulators have that option, like a quick save that works in any situation even if the game has no save option.

But now, for me a console is like Netflix, a streaming service I control when to watch it, and a PC has become obsolete to me, like an old TV service that dictates when I play and when I can stop playing. And I understand that this is not applicable to everyone, because each one consumes their gameplay time in different manners. It's like the people ok with Returnal and the people complaining because save points are too far one from each other.

For me, to quit and resume a game in any point has become a basic function for gaming. As for other people is 60fps, for example.

But, as I said, I like 4k, 60fps, RT.... I like to have the most graphically advanced device, I don't want to be bounded to the same machine 7 years, so I would want to return to PC. But for now, consoles are the only ones with that function. So, damn, I'm fucked I think.
 
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M1chl

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I disabled 4.0 because it kept fucking with my usb ports 😂😂

3080 here..
I did enable that fast thingy thing tho
Forgot what it was even called
They already have a fix for it (well new BIOS), not sure which mobo you have, but all X570, B500 chipset should be fixed.
 
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Spukc

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They already have a fix for it (well new BIOS), not sure which mobo you have, but all X570, B500 chipset should be fixed.
wait fuck for real ?
that is really recently then..

because holy shit my capture card did NOT fucking liked it

when i checked it was in beta..
i don't want beta shit on my mobo since i use it for work
 
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