The Jimquisition: A Difficult Subject (difficulty options in games)

PhoenixTank

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I wish more people watched the video instead of treating this as the "Difficulty in videogames REDUX" thread. I know, I know... a comparatively long video and can't expect everyone to. As I've been writing this, more have engaged on the topic at hand and I'm glad for that - thank you!

My combined tl;dw and impressions of the video/topic:
I think Jim's argument is pretty solid and I generally agree with him on this (with less snark). He isn't demanding an easy mode in hard games (though apparently others have vehemently called for that?) but if FromSoft chose to add one he wouldn't be upset by this. A lot of people are circling back to that previous point. Those that are demanding an easy mode, and won't accept a "no" from the dev, are being assholes.
He has no problem with mods and cheats to make it easier for those that want to. Worth noting that not all platforms have this personal option available.

He makes the argument that if you enjoy something you'll generally like to share it with others too. Homogenising a game to appeal to a mass audience often backfires and leads to the game losing what made it special: focus groups, design by committee and all that flawed stuff.
However what I think he gets at is that allowing for (not forcing) small concessions like the possibility of an easy mode that'd allow for more sales might be the lesser of two evils if the alternative is mtx, loot boxes, season passes and so on. Not a "they must do this", just the possibility of it.
I agree with the notion that those that choose an easier option could experience a similar level of blood sweat and tears as another player would with the standard difficulty.


Not covered in the video but I've seen at least one post saying "But some journos will play it on easy then call the game bad". Okay, then they're doing a poor job of reviewing the game and that isn't exactly a new problem for potential customers nor developers? If they're actually playing at a level where the game is too easy for them to have to consider the game's systems they only have themselves to blame, especially if that is a key part of the game. Tell them their coverage is poor and why in a reasoned and well thought out manner if you must engage with them but they probably don't represent you nor care. Provide proper alternative coverage of it if you're rightfully frustrated by theirs and want to balance it out.

this nonexistent mode is not "harmful" what is harmful is assuming that people are doing harm by thinking otherwise. this bullshit strawman gaslighting is what is harmful. right away he is framing the question so that if people think different than him, they are accusing him of being harmful. he is defining his own outrage.

no it doesn't do a game any harm. because it doesn't exist. there is no easy mode in Sekiro, so how can a nonexistent thing have any impact? this is a dumb and pointless argument. we are arguing over things that don't exist.
It is a hypothetical. The argument is if a game like Sekiro had an optional easier mode that FromSoft chose to add, of their own free will (or was part of the game day 1) , and you could play through on standard difficulty, never having to touch the easier mode, would it detriment your enjoyment of the game? If yes, how? Jim thinks it wouldn't in any material way.
Hypotheticals are more useful than you make out - important for decision making and weighing up potential choices in the face of uncertainty. They have limits and aren't perfect but not pointless.

@Greedings for example makes the argument above that it'd affect the collective & community aspect of it. Fair point. It could be countered that easier doesn't have to mean less enemies or anything noticeable. The industry tends to do so via changes to damage done/taken but for something like Sekiro there is definitely scope for better options without dramatically altering the core of the game. Perhaps elongated windows to counter hits, slower recovery on enemy attacks giving you a little longer to make the most of the opening. Increased granularity of difficulty levels, as Jim mentioned, might go a long way... just moving the needle a little further in your favour. Easy/Medium/Hard is clear enough for a player to parse usually but probably not optimal for getting them the right level of gameplay.

@Greedings Sorry for the stealth(?) response, but it was a good example of responding to the hypothetical in a balanced post.

Again, not demanding this. Definitely not in favour of forcing it, but I'd find it hard to believe that FromSoft couldn't do it well, without compromising the design if (and only if) they wanted to.

Edit: A little rewording for clarity early on.
 
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Danjin44

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As someone who's loved from software games since the King's field days,I don't see anything wrong with an easy mode..

Just don't give people trophies or achievements for beating bosses/the game. Once they beat the game on easy, it gives them a message like "are you ready for the real game/A challenge" or some shit.
Why people think adding difficulty setting is easy as flipping a switch? The developers need use resource and man power to balance each difficulty unless you want FROM just shoehorned unbalanced difficulty option for sake of making other people happy.
 

nkarafo

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I said this in the other threads, Sekiro is a "Souls" game. These games have a certain reputation that attracts a lot of attention. That's their difficulty. An easy mode would remove that characteristic as it would make them the same as all other games that have difficulty modes.

The high difficulty, the inaccessibility, the hostility, etc, give these games some sort of identity that very few other games have (if any).
 
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Danjin44

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I said this in the other threads, Sekiro is a "Souls" game. These games have a certain reputation that attracts a lot of attention. That's their difficulty. An easy mode would remove that characteristic as it would make them the same as all other games that have difficulty modes.

The high difficulty, the inaccessibility, the hostility, etc, give these games some sort of identity that very few other games have (if any).
This and also I would say Sekiro already gives you lot of option to make boss fights easier with shinobi tools.

Another thing.....
If you play Sekiro without Kuro's charm you realize how much Sekiro default difficulty gives you room for mistakes.
All this game is asking is for people engage with its mechanics but its seems thats too much for some people these days.
 

Tekkie

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All this game is asking is for people engage with its mechanics but its seems thats too much for some people these days.
And that REALLY, truly is what it's about in the end. If you actually take the time and get passed Madam Butterfly and perhaps Genichiro, you'll get it. You'll find your flow. But it takes a little time. Just like how it was quite harrowing for me for example to go from Demon's/Dark Souls to Bloodborne, that required time to get right too but once you fully grasp what you're dealing with and how it plays it already becomes a lot easier. I'd go so far as to say that it really isn't more difficult than Bloodborne was. At the very least, it's in the same spectrum if you ask me.
 

Ogbert

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I can pick any game made before 2001 and fucking guarantee you it'll be harder than a souls game.
Yep.

And newer ones to boot too. DK Tropical Freeze is objectively tougher than DS. As is Mario Champion's Road. It might not take up as much time. You might get to restart quicker. And the music is much more cheerful. But in terms of basic gaming dexterity, there's much more going on there.
 

SlashBringingHasher

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As always..fuck elitism in any hobby always.

Quote from Jim that says it all... "What is so harmful about a completely optional mode that you never have to experience?"
there is nothing harmful about it. but if a developer does not want to dedicate time for it. then I have no problem the developer made that decision. regardless of how simple it might be to do so.

80% of 2d games are harder than dark souls. people just dont want to put the ffort in it. dark souls is not that hard. its just a game that takes effort. most 2d games are infinitely harder. people just expect to fucking get grabbed by the hand and given arrows click-to-do segments like the ones in uncharted and cinematic games these days. its nearly impossible to lose.
 
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GreenAlien

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The argument is if a game like Sekiro had an optional easier mode that FromSoft chose to add, of their own free will (or was part of the game day 1) , and you could play through on standard difficulty, never having to touch the easier mode, would it detriment your enjoyment of the game? If yes, how? Jim thinks it wouldn't in any material way.
I can only speak for myself of course, but for me:

1. It's annoying
I will have to think about and bother with what difficulty to choose. This is annoying in every game that has multiple difficulties, but the worst offenders are the ones that get cute and don't call it easy-normal-hard, but recruit-soldier-veteran-general... and so on.. that forces me to waste time to ask others what the best difficulty to play the game on is..

2. There is a psychological impact.
Whenever I get to a hard part in a game, after a few tries, I will have that voice in the back of my head saying stuff like "Are you an idiot? Why are you not lowering the difficulty? What a waste of time".
But the fact of the matter is, if it's just a single part that is a problem for me then I really do not want to lower the overall difficulty. I want to experience the game the way it was meant to be played and most of the time it's not clear what the difficulty option changes in the game). So I'm experiencing unnecessary stress that has nothing to do with the game and it makes me give up and stop playing the game altogether sooner or I give in, lower the difficulty and lose interest anyway, because it's just no longer the same. (This has happened to me before, with other games)

3. If I knew nothing about this game and developer, have no Internet/friends or the willingness to ask; and see "Easy" and "Normal" in the game.. Well, I would probably start on normal and end up getting murdered. Now, expecting a "normal, modern" game I would probably conclude that the developers messed up the balancing and change to easy, possibly ruining some of what makes the game special unknowingly..


I can avoid that without difficulty options. If a game is too hard for me and/or I get bored I just play something else.
I would like to add that I got destroyed by that Dark Souls 1 DLC Boss and thus didn't finish that game. So, I'm really not an "Elite" gamer that doesn't care about difficulty because I'm just that good...
 
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oagboghi2

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Then we should ban mods, and everything else that could hinder the devs' artistic vision.

Like, I don't know, playing on a sub-par tv. Or playing it without sound. Or with better antialiasing.

Or taking turns with friends.

I really hope From's decides to actually release an easy mode. Just to say "see, it's their artistic vision now".

Jim's right: fuck off with this bullshit. Let people have fun the way they want. Who cares?

If cheating makes the game more fun to some people, thus making the game more popular, what's the problem?
And if From says no, can you guys STFU about an easy mode?

If you guys refuse to get better at the game, than why should they change it for you?
 
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Hestar69

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Why people think adding difficulty setting is easy as flipping a switch? The developers need use resource and man power to balance each difficulty unless you want FROM just shoehorned unbalanced difficulty option for sake of making other people happy.
I never said it was easyt as flipping a switch,But I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to make enemies do less damage and give you more HP.

Like I Said,I've been a from fan since Kings field days,Love their games,I just want them to get as much sucess as they can.

Also,Love gravity rush 1. I need to play 2 :D.
 

Airola

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The question every developer should make is this:
"What is the lowest possible difficulty in this game that would still have the general sense of the vision we have for the game? Would an easier difficulty go against the main hook of the game?"
If lower difficulty breaks that sense of vision, then they should not make it no matter how many people would want that.

And players could also ask if a difficulty level they want to the game but doesn't yet exist would still have the general sense of the vision of the developers. Would it go against the main hook the developers have envisioned to the game?

There are countless of games designed where the lowest possible difficulty gives the player the vision the developers had for the game.
And in From Software games that difficulty is also set. It just isn't named as EASY on the difficulty settings menu. We should perhaps think the normal mode being the easy mode whereas the hardcore mode is the originally intended difficulty.

In Silent Hill 2 you can choose to have easy combat and easy puzzles. Do those options go against the main vision and the main hook of the game? I would say no as the strongest hook and point of those games in my opinion have never been in combat or puzzles, but in the wild and nightmarish adventure gameplay with clever abstract storytelling through gameplay. Even though one of the features of these games is that the main character is an ordinary guy who isn't good at shooting, the boss and enemy encounters aren't really about them being too challenging, but about them messing up with players on more psychological level. In my opinion the equivalent for a From Software game having an Easy Mode would in Silent Hill games be an option where the nightmarish psychological horror adventuring would be toned down for people who can't take it.
 

Danjin44

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Like I Said,I've been a from fan since Kings field days,Love their games,I just want them to get as much sucess as they can.
Thankfully they are already getting success without trying to appeal to everybody, in fact I would say its because the way design their games that make them stand out from everybody else.
 
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Whitesnake

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He makes the argument that if you enjoy something you'll generally like to share it with others too. Homogenising a game to appeal to a mass audience often backfires and leads to the game losing what made it special: focus groups, design by committee and all that flawed stuff.
However what I think he gets at is that allowing for (not forcing) small concessions like the possibility of an easy mode that'd allow for more sales might be the lesser of two evils if the alternative is mtx, loot boxes, season passes and so on. Not a "they must do this", just the possibility of it.
I agree with the notion that those that choose an easier option could experience a similar level of blood sweat and tears as another player would with the standard difficulty.
But if someone is playing a version of Dark Souls where they can just tank all the hits and never have to learn or overcome anything, they aren’t actually playing the same game.
The cycle of dying, learning, and overcoming is integral to the experience Dark Souls. The oppressive atmosphere and constant caution you have while playing is completely invalidated when you know thta nothing is a threat and you’ll survive every encounter unscathed. There is no tension, no fear, no caution. All these deliberate choices of invoking emotion from the player are made by the devs are completely invalidated in an easy mode.

The major point of the gameplay is learning from your mistakes. If you just increase the threshold of mistakes a player can make before they die to the point that they never die and never learn anything at all, that defeats the whole purpose.


It is a hypothetical. The argument is if a game like Sekiro had an optional easier mode that FromSoft chose to add, of their own free will (or was part of the game day 1) , and you could play through on standard difficulty, never having to touch the easier mode, would it detriment your enjoyment of the game? If yes, how? Jim thinks it wouldn't in any material way.

An easy mode won’t ruin my experience, but anyone who plays it will have an inherently lesser experience than someone who plays it as-intended. Again, anyone who would play a FromSoft game on easy wouldn’t actually be playing the same game as me.
 
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TheDuskwalker

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there is nothing harmful about it. but if a developer does not want to dedicate time for it. then I have no problem the developer made that decision. regardless of how simple it might be to do so.

80% of 2d games are harder than dark souls. people just dont want to put the ffort in it. dark souls is not that hard. its just a game that takes effort. most 2d games are infinitely harder. people just expect to fucking get grabbed by the hand and given arrows click-to-do segments like the ones in uncharted and cinematic games these days. its nearly impossible to lose.
I've been playing through Dark Souls 3, FINALLY. I've actually been counting deaths at bosses, and yeah, at least for the main story, it's really not that hard.
 

njean777

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The fact you state easier games to be brain dead says a lot about your elitism. Do you really think i would give a flying fuck if nintendo added a optional ultra hardcore elite mode to animal crossing?

NO then why do so many SOULS gamers give a fuck about an easy mode being in theirs.
I don't really see many gamers asking for hard mode in games like I do seeing people ask for easy modes in certain games, just saying.
 

Lionel Richie

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NO then why do so many SOULS gamers give a fuck about an easy mode being in theirs.
How would an easy mode work on Souls games? These games are based on pattern recognition and punishing mistakes, that isn't exactly conductive to an easy mode. If enemies hit you for less damage, you're still getting shrecked until you stop playing like a scrub.

Do you ask rhythm games to have slower gameplay?
 

EDMIX

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As always..fuck elitism in any hobby always.

Quote from Jim that says it all... "What is so harmful about a completely optional mode that you never have to experience?"
This.

I played RE2 only on hardcore as I love the limited saves and limited ammo and stuff, but I never care about folks that played on the easier mode and even love that it exist. If more folks buy it, it means I get to get more RE titles. So.....I care not if someone else gets to play it on a different mode, so long as I GET TO PLAY IT ON HARDCORE. Its a non-issue and I think the community just has a lot of growing up to do.

It would be like someone who loves films, crying that SOMEONE ELSE watches the film with subtitles and then argues to NOT have subtitles that they won't use, that are optional and have nothing to do with how they actually view the film themselves. If anyone of us saw something like that, we'd laugh.

What do they think other mediums are doing when they read this stuff about the community? smh I love From Software games and have no issue with them ever doing some easy mode. More can play, they can get more sales and I still get the same mode.

Thus irrelevant.
 
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TheDuskwalker

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It would be like someone who loves films, crying that SOMEONE ELSE watches the film with subtitles and then argues to NOT have subtitles that they won't use, that are optional and have nothing to do with how they actually view the film themselves. If anyone of us saw something like that, we'd laugh.
Too bad this debate is more like people watching a silent film, then demanding a voice dub because they refuse to learn how to read.

Reading good is elitist!
 
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TheDuskwalker

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I mean....they'd still have the option. So....why would someone get mad at a dub option? You know anyone really getting mad at a feature that is optional?
You're right! Money grows on trees, and voice actors work for free!
 
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EDMIX

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You're right, let's make every book a movie, let's make every movie a book! Money grows on trees, and voice actors work for free!
? huh? Buddy, don't exaggerate that much. Subtitles or dub in films is normal options just like difficulty settings and even sub and dub are options.

None of that is unreasonable as too many have them to really suggest its not normal or too much work or unreasonable etc. Sorry but it just doesn't make sense and you are working pretty hard to make it look like its this massive undertaking.

Its not for 99% of the games that exist.....
JUST like its not for 99% of the films that exist to have subtitles.
 
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Hestar69

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Thankfully they are already getting success without trying to appeal to everybody, in fact I would say its because the way design their games that make them stand out from everybody else.
Thankfully they are already getting success without trying to appeal to everybody, in fact I would say its because the way design their games that make them stand out from everybody else.
I'm sure if they added an easy mode they would sell more..But yeah,Their games are meant to be hard and that's part of the appeal. It's just shame alot of gamers and journalists are scared of a good challenge in games these days.
 
As always..fuck elitism in any hobby always.

Quote from Jim that says it all... "What is so harmful about a completely optional mode that you never have to experience?"

What's so harmful about not having it? Nothing.

It's ok to have games that don't appeal to everyone or continuing that logic, games designed for everyone.

Unfortunately this is just the latest thing the gaming media has decided to champion because well it's desperate for clicks. there have always been games that are more difficult than others and nobody seemed to care. Those crazy shooters with bullets flying in every possible direction, are something I'll never enjoy because I suck at them. But that's okay.

This is not about gaming putting limits on who can play their games. This is about the media finding something new to focus on to get clicks and bolster their patreons. It's the same argument in new clothing, where is my difficulty diversity!

Let me make one thing clear if a developer wants to put in that option I'm 100% fine with it. But this moral grandstanding is just eye-rolling inducing.

Like it or not there's things in this world only some people have done. Hills climbed, records beaten, miles run, etc and there is value to that. Why is it so hard for people to get it's value in gaming.

If it were up to me the dark Souls games would have a pause button. But I get why it doesn't. The fact that it lacks this common feature is the point. It adds to the tension. It breaks the 4th wall in a unique way. Got to use the bathroom, sure but I you're gonna have to be die. Yet once again all the people clamoring for their voice to be heard while ignoring, no demonizing any voices they don't agree with.

But maybe that's the point. Every story needs a good villain.
 
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TheDuskwalker

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? huh? Buddy, don't exaggerate that much. Subtitles or dub in films is normal options just like difficulty settings and even sub and dub are options.

None of that is unreasonable as too many have them to really suggest its not normal or too much work or unreasonable etc. Sorry but it just doesn't make sense and you are working pretty hard to make it look like its this massive undertaking.

Its not for 99% of the games that exist.....
JUST like its not for 99% of the films that exist to have subtitles.
:messenger_tears_of_joy: Wow!

 
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EDMIX

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:messenger_tears_of_joy: Wow!

ok...

Its still a feature in many films. You just proved my point seeing how they clearly added it.....

lol why did you cherry pick that to argue? Did you not read the whole post or ? "None of that is unreasonable as too many have them to really suggest its not normal " ie "not normal"

Dub and sub is normal in a film as options.
 
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RokkanStoned

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Going for broad and mass appeal isn't always beneficial for a game, it all depends on how it's marketed. And Souls games are marketed as a game with hard content, where you are supposed to learn to overcome the challenges, it doesn't try to lower the bar and it doesn't try to infantilize you. So when I see people try to whine about the difficulty and more so conflating accessibility with difficulty, it makes me get the image of the Nietzschean Last Man.
Honestly, more games should go for a single difficulty setting that challenges the player, as most games have multiple difficulties and those who have only one tend to have a "easy" or "normal" one. I mean, for god's sake, a lot of us have grown up to games with one difficulty setting and harsh punishment for failure (start the game over again).
Even my wife, who I'd say hasn't grown up with games that are as punishing as a lot of NES and SNES games, tried really hard to be the Taurus Demon, never whining about difficulty, just getting mad at her own failures and felt ashamed and like her victory wasn't earned when she finally killed him, because he accidentally jumped off to his death at 15% or something. She never asked for a difficulty option and she'd have easily accepted coming at an impasse and taking a break from the game for a while.

The song for fans of Soulsbornkiro or other difficult games:

 

EDMIX

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Going for broad and mass appeal isn't always beneficial for a game, it all depends on how it's marketed. And Souls games are marketed as a game with hard content, where you are supposed to learn to overcome the challenges, it doesn't try to lower the bar and it doesn't try to infantilize you. So when I see people try to whine about the difficulty and more so conflating accessibility with difficulty, it makes me get the image of the Nietzschean Last Man.
Honestly, more games should go for a single difficulty setting that challenges the player, as most games have multiple difficulties and those who have only one tend to have a "easy" or "normal" one. I mean, for god's sake, a lot of us have grown up to games with one difficulty setting and harsh punishment for failure (start the game over again).
Even my wife, who I'd say hasn't grown up with games that are as punishing as a lot of NES and SNES games, tried really hard to be the Taurus Demon, never whining about difficulty, just getting mad at her own failures and felt ashamed and like her victory wasn't earned when she finally killed him, because he accidentally jumped off to his death at 15% or something. She never asked for a difficulty option and she'd have easily accepted coming at an impasse and taking a break from the game for a while.

The song for fans of Soulsbornkiro or other difficult games:

" Souls games are marketed as a game with hard content, where you are supposed to learn to overcome the challenges, it doesn't try to lower the bar and it doesn't try to infantilize you"

Good thing many are talking about adding a easy mode and not removing the normal mode then.....

The game can still be that.

So.....yea.

optional. As in, you don't need to play that other mode and you still get "the challenges"
 

RokkanStoned

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" Souls games are marketed as a game with hard content, where you are supposed to learn to overcome the challenges, it doesn't try to lower the bar and it doesn't try to infantilize you"

Good thing many are talking about adding a easy mode and not removing the normal mode then.....

The game can still be that.

So.....yea.

optional. As in, you don't need to play that other mode and you still get "the challenges"

I don't think you understand. The normal mode is the game, the bar you have to pass is beating the boss and it's the same for everyone. And an easy mode would destroy the marketing of the game. It'd just be another game where you just adjust your difficulty that caters to you. The game is set up to either allow you to grow or for you to accept your limitations. It knows you can do it, but that you need to realize what you're doing wrong. It doesn't lower the bar for you because you struggle, it makes the struggle something to overcome and giving you a sense of progression. Take a random game like InFamous: The Second Son. At the end of that game I never felt like me as the player had evolved and sure, you got lots of powers in the end, but they never felt earned. Soulsbornkiro games treat you like a person that can do better than what you'll settle for. The games would be totally different as an experience if it had "modes".

 
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TheDuskwalker

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ok...

Its still a feature in many films. You just proved my point seeing how they clearly added it.....

lol why did you cherry pick that to argue? Did you not read the whole post or ? "None of that is unreasonable as too many have them to really suggest its not normal " ie "not normal"
Actually....I proved you don't read what's presented to you.
Dub and sub is normal in a film as options.
"Otherwise, the decision depends on the type of film and its perceived market value in a given country. Animated films are dubbed into more languages than live action, since animation is primarily aimed at children who may not be able to read subtitles. Disney’s The Princess and the Frog, for instance, will be dubbed into 38 languages, while the studio’s live-action offering The Sorcerer’s Apprentice is only scheduled for nine."
 
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EDMIX

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Actually.... I just proved you don't read.

"Otherwise, the decision depends on the type of film and its perceived market value in a given country. Animated films are dubbed into more languages than live action, since animation is primarily aimed at children who may not be able to read subtitles. Disney’s The Princess and the Frog, for instance, will be dubbed into 38 languages, while the studio’s live-action offering The Sorcerer’s Apprentice is only scheduled for nine."
Ok

"
Sorry but it just doesn't make sense and you are working pretty hard to make it look like its this massive undertaking.

Its not for 99% of the games that exist.....
JUST like its not for 99% of the films that exist to have subtitles.
"

Its still a feature. In many films bud, you are just arguing to argue. Too many games have many modes to pretend as if its asking too much or uncommon or anything like that. Sub and dubs are not uncommon and are in many films, shows etc. You just can't stand that its something that happens enough to question this game.
 

EDMIX

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I don't think you understand. The normal mode is the game, the bar you have to pass is beating the boss and it's the same for everyone. And an easy mode would destroy the marketing of the game. It'd just be another game where you just adjust your difficulty that caters to you. The game is set up to either allow you to grow or for you to accept your limitations. It knows you can do it, but that you need to realize what you're doing wrong. It doesn't lower the bar for you because you struggle, it makes the struggle something to overcome and giving you a sense of progression. Take a random game like InFamous: The Second Son. At the end of that game I never felt like me as the player had evolved and sure, you got lots of powers in the end, but they never felt earned. Soulsbornkiro games treat you like a person that can do better than what you'll settle for. The games would be totally different as an experience if it had "modes".

"I don't think you understand. The normal mode is the game"

Yea...a mode that is still going to be in the game if you add easy mode.

InFamous Second Son also has many modes, it has a expert mode.... sooooo yea. Still a great game, more modes is ok.
 

oagboghi2

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? huh? Buddy, don't exaggerate that much. Subtitles or dub in films is normal options just like difficulty settings and even sub and dub are options.

None of that is unreasonable as too many have them to really suggest its not normal or too much work or unreasonable etc. Sorry but it just doesn't make sense and you are working pretty hard to make it look like its this massive undertaking.

Its not for 99% of the games that exist.....
JUST like its not for 99% of the films that exist to have subtitles.
Why does everything have to appeal to everyone? Why can't something just Excel at being what it is, at the expense of appealing to Western audiences who lack the mental fortitude and patience to understand it?

When I see posts like yours, all I can think of is "this is why Americans studios make shit like Anthem ad naseum over and over"
 
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RokkanStoned

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"I don't think you understand. The normal mode is the game"

Yea...a mode that is still going to be in the game if you add easy mode.

InFamous Second Son also has many modes, it has a expert mode.... sooooo yea. Still a great game, more modes is ok.
Now you're just being disingenuous. The Normal Mode _IS_ the game. That's the bar you have to pass. If you can't,, then it's no different than utterly failing at completing an "easy mode" in a game. The whole game is designed around you yourself needing to do whatever with the tools, items and environment at hand, to pass that bar. It doesn't infantilize you and makes you grow as a person.

And ugh, InFamous Second Son having more modes isn't really relevant to an argument about the Souls games. It's an example how difficulty settings just don't bring a lot to the table in term of self-improvement. Hard modes tend to be "more damage taken, less health", that doesn't make for the same as a single designed difficulty, a single bar you have to pass. In a game with easy mode you can just switch to an easier difficulty and destroy all sense of challenge. That makes the experience of the game completely different from one with just a single difficulty.

There is nothing stopping people from finishing a Souls game. They just don't want the challenge and the overcoming of that challenge is the core of the Souls games.
 

zenspider

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Well I have a much broader definition of art than you do.

The way in which you live your life is an art form.

To me, art is creation. To exclude games from the definition of art is to reduce art to a non-concept, to make it vanish altogether.
To what end here? What does a broader definition of art mean in this discussion?
 

Sakura

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This whole argument never made any sense to me.
If the game is too hard then don't play it.
I don't play fighting games because I am shit at them. But I don't think there should be an easy mode, I just understand that the games aren't for me.
Why can't these people understand that the Souls games aren't for them?
It's ok for games to be niche. It's ok if a game doesn't appeal to everyone under the sun. The developers are making the game they want, for the group of people that want it.
You don't have to play Sekiro.
 

zenspider

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The argument is if a game like Sekiro had an optional easier mode that FromSoft chose to add, of their own free will (or was part of the game day 1) , and you could play through on standard difficulty, never having to touch the easier mode, would it detriment your enjoyment of the game? If yes, how?
It makes winning less exclusive. Simple as that.
 

TheDuskwalker

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Its still a feature. In many films bud, you are just arguing to argue. Too many games have many modes to pretend as if its asking too much or uncommon or anything like that. Sub and dubs are not uncommon and are in many films, shows etc.
Oh the irony. They're not uncommon, but they're also not in a lot of stuff, you know why? Because it costs money, time, and resources which you keep trying to downplay, no matter how many times you repeat the same thing pretending it isn't. Some also don't include them out of artisitc vision for the movie. And that goes the same for options.

Also it's not just movies either, lots of games are subtitles only, especially from smaller companies because they can't afford dubbing. I love how you keep pretending this isn't true just because it counters your entire argument. I'm not sure if you noticed this, but Demon's Souls was English voices only, From Software didn't start having multiple languages until, get this, they had more money. +gasp*

You just can't stand that its something that happens enough to question this game.
It's sad you're having to resort to this to people countering your "points". No, I only question people that clearly have no idea what they're talking about, yet keep pretending they do. I'm not at all arguing difficulty options in games, I am however going to call out anyone that says a purposely hard game needs a easy mode when the game is purposely hard and the game is marketed as such. Like, have you seen ads for From Software games?

This one was on the first page.

That makes it pretty clear what there games are, who they're aimed for, the experience the developers intend, and what you're in for. It's clear the devs don't want you to have an easy experience, regardless of what YOU want.
 
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EDMIX

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Oh the irony. They're not uncommon, but they're also not in a lot of stuff, you know why? Because it costs money, time, and resources which you keep trying to downplay, no matter how many times you repeat the same thing pretending it isn't. Some also don't include them out of artisitc vision for the movie. And that goes the same for options.

Also it's not just movies either, lots of games are subtitles only, especially from smaller companies because they can't afford dubbing. I love how you keep pretending this isn't true just because it counters your entire argument. I'm not sure if you noticed this, but Demon's Souls was English voices only, From Software didn't start having multiple languages until, get this, they had more money. +gasp*


It's sad you're having to resort to this to people countering your "points". No, I only question people that clearly have no idea what they're talking about, yet keep pretending they do. I'm not at all arguing difficulty options in games, I am however going to call out anyone that says a purposely hard game needs a easy mode when the game is purposely hard and the game is marketed as such. Like, have you seen ads for From Software games?

This one was on the first page.
That makes it pretty clear what there games are, who they're aimed for, the experience the developers intend, and what you're in for.
" they're also not in a lot of stuff" They are very much in a lot of stuff and its a normal option to see.

I think its funny that lots of teams can have many options and we are trying to now pretend its this rare, costly thing just to argue. Ok pal.
 

DCDW

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Hopefully the time stamp works, go to 52:40 to where they talk about game difficulty. Pretty much sums up the way I see things.
 

EDMIX

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Now you're just being disingenuous. The Normal Mode _IS_ the game. That's the bar you have to pass. If you can't,, then it's no different than utterly failing at completing an "easy mode" in a game. The whole game is designed around you yourself needing to do whatever with the tools, items and environment at hand, to pass that bar. It doesn't infantilize you and makes you grow as a person.

And ugh, InFamous Second Son having more modes isn't really relevant to an argument about the Souls games. It's an example how difficulty settings just don't bring a lot to the table in term of self-improvement. Hard modes tend to be "more damage taken, less health", that doesn't make for the same as a single designed difficulty, a single bar you have to pass. In a game with easy mode you can just switch to an easier difficulty and destroy all sense of challenge. That makes the experience of the game completely different from one with just a single difficulty.

There is nothing stopping people from finishing a Souls game. They just don't want the challenge and the overcoming of that challenge is the core of the Souls games.
"In a game with easy mode you can just switch to an easier difficulty and destroy all sense of challenge"

Ok.

If someone wants to do that, thats their business. Different modes exist for different reasons.... What does it even matter to you how someone else is playing it anyway?
 

TheDuskwalker

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" they're also not in a lot of stuff" They are very much in a lot of stuff and its a normal option to see.

I think its funny that lots of teams can have many options and we are trying to now pretend its this rare, costly thing just to argue. Ok pal.
"They are very much in a lot of stuff and its a normal option to see. " And they're very much NOT in a lot of stuff too, and it's not unnormal to see.

I think it's funnier that people think that because other things do something, then everything that doesn't should as well regardless of how the person that makes it feels, and stuff that costs money should be added because it doesn't cost all the money in the world.

If someone wants to do that, thats their business. Different modes exist for different reasons.... What does it even matter to you how someone else is playing it anyway?
If some game devs don't want to do that, that's their buisness. Different games exist for different reasons.... What does it matter to you how a game dev designs how there game is meant to be played anyway?
 
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RokkanStoned

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"In a game with easy mode you can just switch to an easier difficulty and destroy all sense of challenge"

Ok.

If someone wants to do that, thats their business. Different modes exist for different reasons.... What does it even matter to you how someone else is playing it anyway?
That's their business if it's available. Making the game is the developer's business and they can say: this is the bar. That's the sense of design and having a goal with your game, to make all people grow to pass said bar. It sells very well with this design and its marketing. No-modes also exists for different reasons as well.
One could easily ask: "Why does it even matter to you that there's a game you can't beat within your expectations of attempts?", "Why does it matter to you that the game has one difficulty setting?", there are after all other games there and there's nothing saying this one is one you should be allowed to play in any difficulty you want.

These modes don't exist in a vacuum and the collective experience of the game will be different depending on what's available. The gaming experience itself is a social thing, the experience of a game with a single mode adds value to the accomplishment of beating it. If it had an easy mode, then talking about finishing DS1 would be completely different experience. So it definitely has an effect on the one playing the harder difficulty. It's not a self-contained thing, but a larger part of a sense of community, a part of a sense of accomplishment and self-improvement that's shared amongst people playing the game.
 

EDMIX

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That's their business if it's available. Making the game is the developer's business and they can say: this is the bar. That's the sense of design and having a goal with your game, to make all people grow to pass said bar. It sells very well with this design and its marketing. No-modes also exists for different reasons as well.
One could easily ask: "Why does it even matter to you that there's a game you can't beat within your expectations of attempts?", "Why does it matter to you that the game has one difficulty setting?", there are after all other games there and there's nothing saying this one is one you should be allowed to play in any difficulty you want.

These modes don't exist in a vacuum and the collective experience of the game will be different depending on what's available. The gaming experience itself is a social thing, the experience of a game with a single mode adds value to the accomplishment of beating it. If it had an easy mode, then talking about finishing DS1 would be completely different experience. So it definitely has an effect on the one playing the harder difficulty. It's not a self-contained thing, but a larger part of a sense of community, a part of a sense of accomplishment and self-improvement that's shared amongst people playing the game.
"That's their business if it's available. Making the game is the developer's business and they can say " Moot. Who stated they could or couldn't? This is simply speculation.

". That's the sense of design and having a goal with your game, to make all people grow to pass said bar." Yea...they can still do that in the normal mode, no one said take away its original mode...

"If it had an easy mode, then talking about finishing DS1 would be completely different experience. " Well yes.....for those who actually wanted to play that MODE TO HAVE THAT DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE. DS1 if it had a easy mode, doesn't mean removing normal mode. Talking about platinuming a game is also a completely different experience too lol Annnnnnd also a option.
 
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RokkanStoned

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Moot. Who stated they could or couldn't? This is simply speculation.

Yea...they can still do that in the normal mode, no one said take away its original mode...


Well yes.....for those who actually wanted to play that MODE TO HAVE THAT DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE. DS1 if it had a easy mode, doesn't mean removing normal mode. Talking about platinuming a game is also a completely different experience too lol Annnnnnd also a option.

Bolded: Then this discussion is basically done then. Developers can make any difficulty they want, gamers can use any difficulty available. Soulsbornkiro are made with a single difficulty mode and is marketed for its challenge.

Italic: No, they can't. They can't put a single bar saying: accomplish this, in a multi-mode game. If it's so hard to understand, then think of Soulsbornkiro single-mode as easy-mode and that they've removed the addition of more challenging modes and thought it was better for you to modify to challenge by restricting yourself.

Underlined: DS1 "normal mode" is its easy mode. To do normal you have to restrict summons. To do hard mode you play NG+ with Calamity Ring. See, it has multiple modes, it's just not conventionally packaged. And you're also wrong about the experience, the collective experience would be different for all, as it doesn't exist in a vacuum. People talk about finishing a Soulsbornkiro game as if it has weight. It's an accomplishment in itself and that is caused by its single mode, minimum bar you'll have to reach to beat it. Platinuming a game is an addition to the game, but no one talks about that as if it's a big deal the same way they talk about finishing a Soulsbornkiro game. There are numerous threads all across the internet about people playing Soulsbornkiro games and finishing it. Barely do I hear anyone excited about someone platinuming one.
 

Screamer-RSA

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All this because some "journalists" couldn't beat the game they where paid to play. I didn't see any gamers complain about this?

You can ask for an easy mode and the developers can then tell you NO and end the discussion right there. This constant moaning and entitlement. these days. :/
 
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Spukc

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That makes it pretty clear what there games are, who they're aimed for, the experience the developers intend, and what you're in for. It's clear the devs don't want you to have an easy experience, regardless of what YOU want.
Boy it must fucking enrage you and fill you up with hate people hack the shit out of souls games on pc and play your precious hardcore game on EZ-mode. 😍

So to come back at your statement i do whatever the fuck i want to MY game i bought with MY money.

Cant wait for from soft to release an EZ mode in one of their games and then i can go all "its their artistic vision" on yo ass 🤣
 
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Panajev2001a

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As always..fuck elitism in any hobby always.

Quote from Jim that says it all... "What is so harmful about a completely optional mode that you never have to experience?"
It depends on how many resources were dedicated to making it possible, sometimes it can become a designer’s crutch: having waypoints and on screen map / compass by default has helped games grow bigger and bigger without as much need to craft the level design as tightly as before (compare Morrowind to Skyrim for example)... removing the compass is not as easy to adapt to as it sounds as the game is relying on it.
 

Viliger

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Boy it must fucking enrage you and fill you up with hate people hack the shit out of souls games on pc and play your precious hardcore game on EZ-mode. 😍

So to come back at your statement i do whatever the fuck i want to MY game i bought with MY money.

Cant wait for from soft to release an EZ mode in one of their games and then i can go all "its their artistic vision" on yo ass 🤣
Why it is so hard for people like you to realize that it's players who hack games to make them easier, but it is devs who make difficulties. I think it is important for a game to have single difficulty or at least have a message saying that this is the intended difficulty, and somehow differentiate difficulties beyond damage and health values, preferably with conditions on endings, so we can have a laugh at shitters and game reviewers. You know, the PixelJunk Sidescroller situation, when the game reviewer is so incompetent that he shows the game in negative light and we can instantly see that he is incompetent, since easier modes hide additional levels.
If you want it - you are free to do it, but devs are also free to tell you to fuck off with your demands on easy difficulty.
 

Panajev2001a

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Boy it must fucking enrage you and fill you up with hate people hack the shit out of souls games on pc and play your precious hardcore game on EZ-mode. 😍

So to come back at your statement i do whatever the fuck i want to MY game i bought with MY money.

Cant wait for from soft to release an EZ mode in one of their games and then i can go all "its their artistic vision" on yo ass 🤣
You hack the game? Fine, fill your boots mate :). You are taking action and helping yourself have a better time, but are not placing these demands on the developers and they do not have to support that. Win win :).