Did you miss the chapter in the first game when she runs away because she found out Joel was going to have Tommy take her to the fireflies? She later confides in him that he was the only person in her life that cared about her. Even though it was the smart move to have her go with Tommy due to his connections to the fireflies she felt hurt that it wasn't Joel. She absolutely saw him as a father.
This is the biggest problem with the second game. Even if Ellie would have made the decision to sacrifice herself for the vaccine (as suggested at the end of the first game), she wouldn't have taken it out on Joel because he did what any father would have done. But because ND turned Ellie into a shitty person she forgets all that and treats him like shit until the moment he takes a shotgun blast to his knee and a golf club to the face.
No surprise there. Performance since release seems to be one of the worst among the major Sony titles.Haven't heard a peep out of Sony regarding the sales of TLOUP2 since it sold 4m at launch or whatever it was.
I don't see how any of what you said contradicts or corrects what he said. Ellie grows closer to Joel and would kill to save him.The event you are talking about is the mid-point in their character arc in the first game. Its about her abandonment issues, at a point where Joel is actively trying to resist seeing Ellie as a proxy for Sarah. When Ellie points this out it angers him "You are walking on some mighty thin ice here", and its only the arrival of marauders at the ranch-house that seems to shift Joel's position - as much as anything because it drives home how much Jeopardy it'd put Tommy in to complete the job he swore to Tess that he'd see through.
So no, its you who needs their memory and understanding refreshing. Consider how their positions have shifted by the time they finally reach Salt Lake. Ellie is distant, talking about dreams of plane crashes and literally runs off and leaves Joel when she sees the giraffe. Joel tries to impress on her that they don't need to go to the hospital, but Ellie is adamant that after all they've been through the trip HAS to mean something. Its a nice moment of emotional intimacy, but its primary function is to show that they are still poles apart in terms of goals and outlook.
This sequence is the climax of the journey/partnership as after this they get split apart by the drowning incident, and only speak again in the epilogue.
Sorry, but its spelled out there: Ellie explicitly tells Joel that she'll do whatever he wants, but only after she completes her mission. Its the end-point of her whole "coming of age" character arc. That Ellie is treated as character with a will and desires of her own is one of the highpoints of the writing, she's not just a McGuffin for Joel to shepherd from points A through Z.
Ellie's rightfully angry at Joel for lying but she doesn't seem to take issue that the Fireflies would've killed her without informed consent with her line that she should've died there. This is an attitude shift from part I where her bonding with Joel and future planning strongly suggest she wasn't planning to leave Joel when nearing that hospital.Wrong. Ellie is angry at Joel because he's lied to her face and treated her like a child when she has literally killed for him numerous times by this point. Their estrangement has been building over the 5 year interim between the games, its stages are shown in the flashbacks. Doubts first creeping in by the time of their arrival in Jackson, solidifying at the end of the birthday trip when she realizes the Fireflies are disbanded, finally becoming concrete when she herself makes the trip back to Salt Lake. At every step Joel does his utmost to keep up the pretence, and the result is that by the time she has an inkling as to why Joel did what he did, she's already angry and alienated.
She's cooling down, and showing signs of being ready to process the big picture when he gets killed. Which is why she's so hell-bent on vengeance, like Joel, guilt and self recrimination facilitate her rage.
Thanks to the die hard woke-sniping gaffers for pointing out that hight profile promotions in corporations are not given to leaders for bringing results (commonly referred to as money) but to those more capable at pushing The Agenda, making horrible products everyone hates in the name of it so that some money can finally be spent on bribing reviewers and random people to pretend they like the game and vote in polls like VGAs and other irrelevant awards shows. So the head homo propagandist Cuckmann now directly reports to Hulst who reports to Ryan who we all know secretly reports to Sarkesian, no more straight male protagonists this gen confirmed
I don't see how any of what you said contradicts or corrects what he said. Ellie grows closer to Joel and would kill to save him.
It makes sense to continue the journey to the hospital after all they've gone through when they're so close, doesn't mean she was prepared to die there.
Ellie's rightfully angry at Joel for lying but she doesn't seem to take issue that the Fireflies would've killed her without informed consent with her line that she should've died there. This is an attitude shift from part I where her bonding with Joel and future planning strongly suggest she wasn't planning to leave Joel when nearing that hospital.
Where was it shown in part I that Ellie would've left Joel without ever saying good-bye?
Just a point here...Sorry but that's just being obtuse. The clear statement in the Giraffe sequence is that to Ellie finishing the journey matters more to her than what either she or Joel wants. You can insert all the hypotheticals you want in-between as to how/if the Fireflies explained to Ellie that she wasn't going to survive the procedure because that doesn't excuse Joel from his murder rampage. He doesn't have to kill the surgeon, he doesn't have to kill Marlene, and most of all he doesn't have to lie his ass off to Ellie about what he did for 5 years thereafter!
You could add/restage events in any number of ways to shape things in a certain direction, but based purely on the text of the work that giraffe sequence exchange is the final word on Ellie's mindset going in to the surgery. In all likelihood the Fireflies would not have told her that she wouldn't survive the surgery, Marlene tries to impress on Joel the horrible gravity of the situation, and being a paramilitary leader who no doubt has had to sacrifice good and loyal soldiers for the cause in the past its understandable that she decides what she does in spite of it being equally painful personally for her.
Logically, she tells Joel only before having him escorted out at gunpoint, suggesting that she most likely would instruct noone to tell Ellie that she was going to die on the table. Why complicate things when the imperative is finding a cure? She underestimates Joel's bond with Ellie, so its equally likely she has the same concerns for Ellie's feelings for Joel. She doesn't care about what they've gone through to complete their journey because she's been through hell herself over the same time-frame and this opportunity is her last gasp at it meaning anything in the long run.
As in the sequel we see flawed, desperate people doing bad things for good reasons. This is the world-view of TLOU/2.
So no. Ellie would not have been required to consent. Her presence would seem miraculous enough in itself to make it implicit and/or superfluous to request.
None of this matters though because above all else Joel fed Ellie a pack of lies for 5 years despite her growing doubts about what she was told. That sort of incremental degradation of trust is not something you get over in 5 minutes no matter how good the intentions behind it are. We see the beginnings of a possible reconciliation in the final flashback, but both have to admit its going to take time to repair the damage.
As to being angry at the Fireflies; its hard to be angry when they are either dead or scattered to the winds. As is their hope to find a cure.
As I've mentioned in the past, for me the most telling and emblematic moment in the sequel comes at the end of the astronaut flashback sequence where Ellie finds the last testament of the forsaken firefly on the walls of the museum (starts around 52:45 in this video). Because it relates a story of a person who in order to achieve a greater good allows themselves to indulge in "lesser" evils. On a journey such as that the only salvation is that the final goal is realized, so when everything falls apart (at Joel's hands, basically) only damnation awaits.
"There is no light."
This is not just the Fireflies epitaph, its the world of TLOU2. A world past hope because Joel snuffed it out, albeit for "good" reason.
Its also why Ellie sparing Abby is actually triumphant.
Just a point here...
Joel he does have to kill everybody there, I should do the same, because if people knows Ellie is not affected by the virus more will come trying to get her for researches.
So Joel must kill everybody that knows about that in the room.
That not excuse what he did as being bad... but he had to do it even if he become a monster.
These very subtle points based in us humans makes the game even more ejoyable.
So the setting actually takes the time to establish a motive for her to get fit, food and equipment to train, shows various stages of development (including establishing she has a weight lifting record - not football...) and we the audience can easily infer that the WLF possibly the most well supplied group in the established lore would have access to a stockpile of supplements/performance enhancing drugs after they raid an entire city...
but you want to call that bad writing and get into dodgy bone structure talk?
Where you as angry about how Joel an ageing man with a normal body type was able to perform massive feats of strength through the waste land whilst eating Kit Kat’s?
And you're ignoring the implications of Ellie's character if you imply she'd be fine with the way the Fireflies handle things. None of what you're saying indicates Ellie being OK with dying the way the Fireflies were going to if Joel hadn't stepped in. Yes, she wants to go to the hospital to help create a cure, doesn't mean that she was willing to die right then and there.snip
No surprise there. Performance since release seems to be one of the worst among the major Sony titles.
According to PS stats It had less new players in the 4 months following the 2 initial weeks than uncharted 4 or even new IPs like HZD and Ghosts of Tsushima.
Honestky to fix the pacing issues, I kind of wish part 2 was strictly abby and her dad, can play as both characters. They could have fooled us that it was a separate story, have her and her dad much like Ellie and joel in the first game. They are surviving, eventually picked up by fire flies etc. The twist at the end is you play as the dad and find out Ellie is there and as the dad you watch Joel murder the character you play. The twist and ending in part 2 is the stories are linked and the third game is the impact from the first two to then round out the trilogy with them meeting etc.Abby is the star of Part 2. I wish for more Abby in the sequel.
I didn't like any of the characters and didn't think you were supposed to? I think you have to make the argument as to why you liked her rather than the other way around.Abby was never as bad as gaf made out to be. Did people only not like her because she was a bit Manish.
And you're ignoring the implications of Ellie's character if you imply she'd be fine with the way the Fireflies handle things. None of what you're saying indicates Ellie being OK with dying the way the Fireflies were going to if Joel hadn't stepped in. Yes, she wants to go to the hospital to help create a cure, doesn't mean that she was willing to die right then and there.
You can say that part II adds that Ellie would've been ok with dying without inform consent all along to the canon but that retro actively changes Ellie in part I in a way which is not congruent with her behavior in part I and makes her even less likeable in part II.
There may be no rule of law anymore but killing someone without informed consent is unethical regardless if it's for the greater good. Morality is not merely driven by math. The story lacks an explanation why the Fireflies went on with the operation the way they did, they threaten violence at the mere notion of a delay which wasn't unreasonable for someone like Joel to make. The Fireflies are clearly the villains.
This is female empowerment fantasy and there's nothing really wrong with that.Not with the size of Abbys muscles. Hell I go to boxing and my muscles are no near the size of hers.
Havijg to maintain this as a female is 10 to 14 hours a day in the gym and a huge injection of steroids.
Not having any real breasts also confirms this.
I thought this game was a work of brilliance. The way it made me feel about certain characters and then flipping that on its head - superb. And by the end I was almost yelling at the TV for everyone to JUST STOP IT!!!!
Remarkable, really. I hope this and Hades are the top two rewarded games of 2020 (barring any 2077 awesomeness, if it is to be..).
You're talking about Ellie after being lied to for years that would more likely be willing to cut Joel from her life, I'm talking about Ellie in part I.As I pointed out, the real start of Ellie's doubts is in the flashback I mentioned, because its proof that the Fireflies aren't going about their business with many other immune cases just like her.
I just cannot believe that Ellie, who knows what it's like to lose some one dear, forges a strong like daughter-father bond with Joel, who she knows lost a dear daughter, was ready to visit that pain again on Joel without a second thought for the vaccine in part I.No its true to her character, you just don't like having it pointed out. If your pseudo-parent, the one you should trust implicitly, is proven to have been feeding you a pack of lies for 5 years you get pissed off. Doubly so when its about a thing you've had hang-ups about for years (survivors guilt over Riley->the need forher immunity to mean something->that whole grim year journey). Hell, its not like anyone thinks that Joel is a saint, he's a scary dude with a ton of skeletons in his closet. He's more feared than admired.
Just because I call the Fireflies the villains doesn't mean I see Joel as a righteous good hero however the hospital situation clearly had the Fireflies initially making the situation worse with no justification for the hurry they were in.Your fundamental error is trying to parse out heroes and villains. This is a post apocalyptic dystopia. Survival is everything, Joel being a shining example of that.
You appear to be treating what is a clear analog to the sort of "revisionist" Western typified by movies like The Wild Bunch or Unforgiven, like an old John Ford picture.
She could have gotten fit without literally looking like a bodybuilder, that's the issue, Joel looks fit, but he doesn't look like a 20 year old schwarzenegger
I’m not following you, are you saying she could have got fit enough to overpower Joel in a physical fight if necessary without looking like she does? Or are you saying she could have got Yoga pants fit and she‘d have been more palatable for you?
Because, again, it’s not a realism issue. She has the motivation, she has the means to do it (food+gym+drugs) and the game specifically takes the time to justify all of this in its storytelling.
I'm saying she should have been less buff. She didn't need to overpower Joel, and she didn't in the game.
The game in no way justifies her having the physique of a bodybuilder.
Other than her wanting to be stronger and the game showing she had access to a gym and plentiful food and secure walls and a stocked hospital and actually slowly showing her progress with gains and taking the time to say she was obsessed with training to the point where she distances herself from all her loved ones, you‘re right, the gain did nothing to justify it, other than all of that stuff that justified it.
You’re talking around it but its clear it’s not a matter of realism, how she looked made you feel uncomfortable.
Fine, if you think having acess to a gym and food makes you able to have the physique of a bodybuilder so be it. You're wrong, but fine.
Mate I go to the gym several times a week, I see muscular women every other day, I really couldn't care less that a women is muscular.
Abby looks out of place, if Joel looked like a bodybuilder I'd complain to.
Please name one thing in the entire game that was "political and sj activism". Go.Part 2, a technical marvel but a writing nightmare. When even in post-apocalyptic stories & worlds I can't escape from the political and sj activism bullshit from current times, then fuck you ND.
Just bring on Factions MP, Druckman, and let the story die. At least it would receive a more respectful burial unlike the crap Joel received.
Dude, the whole ending of the game has Ellie telling Joel she was ready to die, the reflecting tone of Ellie in the last season ending with her refusing to go back and the ending talk with her revealing her survivors guilt to Joel before asking for the truth.How is Joel lying about what went down with the Fireflies at the hospital mean Ellie would've been OK with dying under those conditions?
It's not a theory that Joel and Ellie grew very close by the end of the game, is it? Why should it still be assumed Ellie's willing to leave Joel at the drop of a hat for the cure at that point?
You don't have to.Still not supporting sjw agenda no matter how you label it.
She may have been willing to die eventually for the cure but she wasn't ready to die when going to the hospital. Why would she talk about a future with Joel afterwards? Why would she put all that effort in strengthening her bond with Joel, getting him to see her as a "daughter" while at the same time be ready to abandon him at a moment's notice for the cure?Dude, the whole ending of the game has Ellie telling Joel she was ready to die, the reflecting tone of Ellie in the last season ending with her refusing to go back and the ending talk with her revealing her survivors guilt to Joel before asking for the truth.
People sometimes accuse ND writing of being in your face but conveniently omit things like this, makes no sense.