Support NeoGAF

[TunaLover]

I agree. I don't like this mindset that RPGs can only be critiqued by RPG developers or experts. It's nonsense. RPGs are games, just like any other genre of game. They may have a different focal point for the audience, but ultimately they still operate on the same basic rules. Anyone who is familiar with games or entertainment in general will be able to look at something and comment if certain things feel off or something looks poorly implemented. It can be anything from the user interface, to how intuitive a command or action is to the user, to even simple things like character motions or map layouts.

Having an experienced designer give a second opinion is invaluable for anyone who is serious about releasing a polished product that has universal acclaim. Often having someone who is not an expert in your own field will actually get you feedback that you and your own core team might not have seen because you're so used to certain staples in the genre, even if it can be further improved.

Fair enough, but we all know how extremist Miyamoto can be, if he was to act like a gameplay advisor I think it's fine, I just couldn't imagine Miyamoto being too much involved in a genre that (until today) totally goes against his design philosophy. Just to name a few ones: he doesn't like complex systems, he barely put a story in his games, and totally "hates" accesory things like cinemas and dramatic stuff... I didn't even know if he could be happy at all working in a RPG =P

However I must admit that his incurtion in the RTS genre with Pikmin was totally awesome.

 

[Vinci]

Fair enough, but we all know how extremist Miyamoto can be, if he was to act like a gameplay advisor I think it's fine, I just couldn't imagine Miyamoto being too much involved in something that totally goes against his design philosophy, just to name a few, he doesn't like complex systems, he barely put a story in his games, and totally "hates" accesory things like cinemas and dramatic stuff... I didn't even know if he could be happy at all working in a RPG =P

God, you just listed several reasons why I love him. Nevermind. Changed my stance. I want Miyamoto to help.

 

[duckroll]

I can see this perspective. I mean, you don't have a to be an RPG developer or expert - but wasn't there a quote from Miyamoto posted on here recently (even though it's old) in which he said he barely got through Mother 2 and that he doesn't play RPGs at all? I'd think some experience with the genre would help educate one's opinions.

Then again, you might be right. Maybe what RPGs need is someone from 'outside' to help figure out how to make something that appeals to larger demographics.

You're thinking of it in a very narrow and specific perspective. In terms of actual gameplay systems, story, narrative design, art direction, etc if Sakaguchi needs someone to tell him what should be done, then he has already failed and should retire. Of course Miyamoto is not going to be suggesting how a RPG should play or what is good or bad in the specific designs. What you would want though, is a basic overview "feel" of how the game is. Do the controls and movement feel responsive and natural? Is the player confused by what he needs to do even after reading the instructions? Does the camera provide a good view for the player in a way that does not hinder his experience or mood while playing?

There are many examples I can think of where you don't need any RPG experience whatsoever to offer a useful suggestion on how to improve something in a RPG. This isn't really about just appealing to a larger demographic, but also about taking into consideration that sometimes, it is not that a person does not like a genre or what it offers, but instead players are often put off by some very basic things which developers for some reason or other think is acceptable to not address just because they've always been in most games in that genre and fans have no complained enough about it.

If Miyamoto ever played Glory of Heracles, even for 10 mins, I'm sure he would comment on how the battles feel too slow and that they should be made faster so the player does not feel bored and annoyed when battles drag on. If he had played ASH, he would almost certainly comment on how the interface needs a lot of work because it not only looks cheap but does not provide the player with enough information in the right places at any given time. If he played it for a few hours, he might have made a comment about how all the objectives in the stages seem to be the same, and it might be more interesting if there was a little more variety. He doesn't have to offer his own suggestion as to how to improve the games, but just by pointing out where he feels they are lacking, it would allow the team to examine the shortcomings and use their own experience to improve on them.

 

[Vinci]

You're thinking of it in a very narrow and specific perspective. In terms of actual gameplay systems, story, narrative design, art direction, etc if Sakaguchi needs someone to tell him what should be done, then he has already failed and should retire. Of course Miyamoto is not going to be suggesting how a RPG should play or what is good or bad in the specific designs. What you would want though, is a basic overview "feel" of how the game is. Do the controls and movement feel responsive and natural? Is the player confused by what he needs to do even after reading the instructions? Does the camera provide a good view for the player in a way that does not hinder his experience or mood while playing?

There are many examples I can think of where you don't need any RPG experience whatsoever to offer a useful suggestion on how to improve something in a RPG. This isn't really about just appealing to a larger demographic, but also about taking into consideration that sometimes, it is not that a person does not like a genre or what it offers, but instead players are often put off by some very basic things which developers for some reason or other think is acceptable to not address just because they've always been in most games in that genre and fans have no complained enough about it.

If Miyamoto ever played Glory of Heracles, even for 10 mins, I'm sure he would comment on how the battles feel too slow and that they should be made faster so the player does not feel bored and annoyed when battles drag on. If he had played ASH, he would almost certainly comment on how the interface needs a lot of work because it not only looks cheap but does not provide the player with enough information in the right places at any given time. If he played it for a few hours, he might have made a comment about how all the objectives in the stages seem to be the same, and it might be more interesting if there was a little more variety. He doesn't have to offer his own suggestion as to how to improve the games, but just by pointing out where he feels they are lacking, it would allow the team to examine the shortcomings and use their own experience to improve on them.

Okay, you sold me. Let him help.

 

[carlo6529]

Sakaguchi is a smart man, and I'm sure he has already talked to him seeing how this seems to be a make or break title.

 

[charlequin]

If Miyamoto ever played Glory of Heracles, even for 10 mins, I'm sure he would comment on how the battles feel too slow and that they should be made faster so the player does not feel bored and annoyed when battles drag on. If he had played ASH, he would almost certainly comment on how the interface needs a lot of work because it not only looks cheap but does not provide the player with enough information in the right places at any given time. If he played it for a few hours, he might have made a comment about how all the objectives in the stages seem to be the same, and it might be more interesting if there was a little more variety. He doesn't have to offer his own suggestion as to how to improve the games, but just by pointing out where he feels they are lacking, it would allow the team to examine the shortcomings and use their own experience to improve on them.

Forget Miyamoto, if your father let you play his games while he was working on them they would turn out better!

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

Miyamoto did come up with the timed hits in Super Mario RPG...

 

[mugurumakensei]

What Nintendo needs to do is use their ninjas to kidnap Hiroshi Yamauchi. Then, force him to play every iteration of The Last Story until there's a version of The Last Story that Yamauchi likes. At that point, it's a guaranteed million seller.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

What Nintendo needs to do is use their ninjas to kidnap Hiroshi Yamauchi. Then, force him to play every iteration of The Last Story until there's a version of The Last Story that Yamauchi likes. At that point, it's a guaranteed million seller.

Spoiler

This is not RPG-related, but didn't Miyamoto make a few key recommendations on Metroid Prime, too?

 

[RurouniZel]

You're thinking of it in a very narrow and specific perspective. In terms of actual gameplay systems, story, narrative design, art direction, etc if Sakaguchi needs someone to tell him what should be done, then he has already failed and should retire. Of course Miyamoto is not going to be suggesting how a RPG should play or what is good or bad in the specific designs. What you would want though, is a basic overview "feel" of how the game is. Do the controls and movement feel responsive and natural? Is the player confused by what he needs to do even after reading the instructions? Does the camera provide a good view for the player in a way that does not hinder his experience or mood while playing?

There are many examples I can think of where you don't need any RPG experience whatsoever to offer a useful suggestion on how to improve something in a RPG. This isn't really about just appealing to a larger demographic, but also about taking into consideration that sometimes, it is not that a person does not like a genre or what it offers, but instead players are often put off by some very basic things which developers for some reason or other think is acceptable to not address just because they've always been in most games in that genre and fans have no complained enough about it.

If Miyamoto ever played Glory of Heracles, even for 10 mins, I'm sure he would comment on how the battles feel too slow and that they should be made faster so the player does not feel bored and annoyed when battles drag on. If he had played ASH, he would almost certainly comment on how the interface needs a lot of work because it not only looks cheap but does not provide the player with enough information in the right places at any given time. If he played it for a few hours, he might have made a comment about how all the objectives in the stages seem to be the same, and it might be more interesting if there was a little more variety. He doesn't have to offer his own suggestion as to how to improve the games, but just by pointing out where he feels they are lacking, it would allow the team to examine the shortcomings and use their own experience to improve on them.

It's basically the same principle a lot of artists use where, as they're working on a piece and need a critique, they'll actively seek out people who are NOT artists instead of artists. They won't be able to tell you what exactly you need to do to fix a piece, but they can tell you if it's appealing or not.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Mistwalker needs to talk to the guys that do the Mario & Luigi series.

Seriously, those games (and the Paper Mario games) have the best battle systems ever.

 

[Zoramon089]

Spoiler

This is not RPG-related, but didn't Miyamoto make a few key recommendations on Metroid Prime, too?

I'd say VERY key recommendations. He was the one who suggested the visor system and that it be in first person

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

I'd say VERY key recommendations. He was the one who suggested the visor system and that it be in first person

I couldn't remember if the scan visor was his idea or not.

 

[carlo6529]

It's basically the same principle a lot of artists use where, as they're working on a piece and need a critique, they'll actively seek out people who are NOT artists instead of artists. They won't be able to tell you what exactly you need to do to fix a piece, but they can tell you if it's appealing or not.

I do this all the time when i'm animating.

 

[dsister44]

Well to be honest, I don't think Nintendo really watches third party developments they are publishing as closely as they should. If they did, ASH and Glory of Heracles would never have been released in Japan.

doesnt nintendo have a whole development team dedicated to doing just this? i believe the sole job of SPD3 is to oversee the development of first party titles by out of house developers. Cant really say how effective it is though

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

Does anyone know if this is Matsuno's secret Wii game?

Anyway, looks cool! I'm interested! Hope it gets localized.

 

[RurouniZel]

I do this all the time when i'm animating.

That as well. They can tell you if an animation looks "off" or not, even if they can't exactly pic which part of it is wrong or how to fix it. It's always a start. ^^

 

[ILikeFeet]

I do this all the time when i'm animating.

I do this with my drawings, and it doesn't work so well. I see something off with my pictures and when I ask my friends (who most draw as well) and they think it looks great (they will admit I am the better artist). so it really isn't a viable tactic for me :lol

 

[hellclerk]

Does anyone know if this is Matsuno's secret Wii game?

Anyway, looks cool! I'm interested! Hope it gets localized.

Definitely not. No one even knows what he's up to at this point anyway, if anything at all.

 

[carlo6529]

I do this with my drawings, and it doesn't work so well. I see something off with my pictures and when I ask my friends (who most draw as well) and they think it looks great (they will admit I am the better artist). so it really isn't a viable tactic for me :lol

Flip your drawing over and look at it backwards, or put it infront of a mirror and look at it that way. You will see instantly if anything is off or looks weird.

Definitely not. No one even knows what he's up to at this point anyway, if anything at all.

He is probably living it up in Hawaii with sakaguchi =)

Seriously though, he is just probably doing his own shit on the side until he is ready to go to a publisher or something.

 

[-WindYoshi-]

Flip your drawing over and look at it backwards, or put it infront of a mirror and look at it that way. You will see instantly if anything is off or looks weird

Is this a viable flaw checking technique, or are you messing around?

 

[jrricky]

Is this a viable flaw checking technique, or are you messing around?

works for me especially through a mirror.

 

[carlo6529]

Is this a viable flaw checking technique, or are you messing around?

Lol, it is very viable. It gives you a fresh eye at your work.

 

[Pennywise]

Looks like my guess about Artoon is looking good.

I already told about that earlier.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19544689&postcount=543

There was the possibility about another project but this topic was cleared up with the column where was stated that there is only one project in the pipeline.

 

[harSon]

Lost Odyssey is so inferior to Blue Dragon in terms of consistency, story, characters and overall direction it's not even funny.

Not really.

And while I liked Blue Dragon, the engine was a complete mess at times.

 

[duckroll]

Not really.

And while I liked Blue Dragon, the engine was a complete mess at times.

Well you're free to disagree, but I definitely enjoyed the world and characters in Blue Dragon much more than how LO ended up. The battles in BD are also faster, the various environments are more varied and more colorful, and the encounter system is fantastic. I didn't encounter any engine issues with BD at all aside from slight slowdown occasionally. LO on the other hand had pretty iffy load times escalated by random encounters and mazey dungeons which made the entire game feel really slow. BD also has a much better ending than LO, so it ended on a high note for me.

 

[Hero of Legend]

Looks like my guess about Artoon is looking good.

I'm surprised Span Smasher's not on that list.

So I'm guessing that the "Contract Development Division" totals are for all games developed by their studios this gen? Like 17 Wii games include all of Cavia's, Artoon's, and Ju-On by Feel Plus?

Edit: That's weird as I have IGN's total for the 3 and unless XSEED's included, here they are:

Cavia

Resident Evil: The Darkside Chronicles
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
SEGA Bass Fishing
Victorious Boxers: Revolution

Artoon

Span Smasher
The World of Golden Eggs: Nori Nori Rhythm-kei
The Last Story (?)

Feel Plus

JU-ON: The Grudge

Only 8 out of the supposed 17, weird.

Edit 2: Say XSEED's included, we have:

Drill Sergeant Mindstrong
Fragile Dreams: Farewell Ruins of The Moon
JU-ON: The Grudge (already counted surely)
Little King's Story
Rune Factory: Frontier
The Sky Crawlers: Innocent Aces
Valhalla Knights: Eldar Saga
Victorious Boxers: Revolution (Same as Ju-On)

14...

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Lol, it is very viable. It gives you a fresh eye at your work.

Yup - it's an absolute must. You'd be astonished how right a piece can look when you have it in front of you and how wrong it looks when you reverse it and look at it with fresh eyes. When I got into sculpting and someone suggested that a mirror should be one of my most valued tools I didn't take them particularly seriously. It was only when I checked my first sculpt out in the mirror that I understood what they meant - every part that didn't look quite right when I looked at in my hands was brutally laid out in the reversed image.

 

[ILikeFeet]

Flip your drawing over and look at it backwards, or put it infront of a mirror and look at it that way. You will see instantly if anything is off or looks weird.

I should try that sometime then :lol

and about that Artoon thing, it really wouldn't surprise me if they were doing it.

 

[duckroll]

Hey, Hero of Legend, no one gives a fuck about your lists! :lol

 

[cosmicblizzard]

So if Artoon is doing it and this is indeed the prototype since FF7, how is that going to work? Did Sakaguchi just keep all the plans and will hand them over to Artoon or does he already have work done on it?

 

[harSon]

Well you're free to disagree, but I definitely enjoyed the world and characters in Blue Dragon much more than how LO ended up. The battles in BD are also faster, the various environments are more varied and more colorful, and the encounter system is fantastic. I didn't encounter any engine issues with BD at all aside from slight slowdown occasionally. LO on the other hand had pretty iffy load times escalated by random encounters and mazey dungeons which made the entire game feel really slow. BD also has a much better ending than LO, so it ended on a high note for me.

Did we have different versions? For me, Blue Dragon suffered from consistent slow downs during battles and occasionally while roaming environments (while around that vehicle that drops robots for example).

Blue Dragon had awesome art design which isn't surprising considering who headed that department, and it certainly made a nice transition to 3D, but I found the environments and cities to be ridiculously barren. It really took me out of the world at times.

I agree about the encounter system in Blue Dragon, it was great. I preferred the battle system in Lost Odyssey though, while nothing ground breaking, it just seemed a hell of a lot more strategic and engrossing. I honestly wasn't wild about either story but the readings in Lost Odyssey really gave some depth to the main characters.

That's not to say that I didn't enjoy Blue Dragon, I just felt it was a lesser RPG on most fronts in comparison to LO.

 

[duckroll]

So if Artoon is doing it and this is indeed the prototype since FF7, how is that going to work? Did Sakaguchi just keep all the plans and will hand them over to Artoon or does he already have work done on it?

I think the "FFVII prototype" thing is being taken seriously out of context. It just means Sakaguchi had an idea in the past he didn't have a chance to expand on until now. Who knows if it's part of the story narrative, or if it's a battle system idea, or even some sort of leveling system. It doesn't really mean anything.

 

[Man God]

One last thing on the asking Miyamoto for advice thing; he was in fact asked for advice on Super Mario RPG in the 90's and did come up with the fantastic idea of timed hits, which basically carried over into every Mario RPG afterwards and is one of my all time favorite RPG mechanics.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I think the "FFVII prototype" thing is being taken seriously out of context. It just means Sakaguchi had an idea in the past he didn't have a chance to expand on until now. Who knows if it's part of the story narrative, or if it's a battle system idea, or even some sort of leveling system. It doesn't really mean anything.

Ah. Makes sense. I'm still curious to how this whole collaboration will work. I mean Nintendo's gotta be doing more than just publishing, right?

Edit: Checking again, I guess that is all they're doing. I definitely knew that. Don't know why I thought otherwise.

 

[WillyFive]

One last thing on the asking Miyamoto for advice thing; he was in fact asked for advice on Super Mario RPG in the 90's and did come up with the fantastic idea of timed hits, which basically carried over into every Mario RPG afterwards and is one of my all time favorite RPG mechanics.

That's because it was completely against what RPG's were at the time.

If he did give advice today, he would change things up a lot more.

 

[Boerseun]

I'm surprised Span Smasher's not on that list.

So I'm guessing that the "Contract Development Division" totals are for all games developed by their studios this gen? Like 17 Wii games include all of Cavia's, Artoon's, and Ju-On by Feel Plus?

Edit: That's weird as I have IGN's total for the 3 and unless XSEED's included, here they are:

Cavia

Resident Evil: The Darkside Chronicles
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
SEGA Bass Fishing
Victorious Boxers: Revolution

Artoon

Span Smasher
The World of Golden Eggs: Nori Nori Rhythm-kei
The Last Story (?)

Feel Plus

JU-ON: The Grudge

Only 8 out of the supposed 17, weird.

Edit 2: Say XSEED's included, we have:

Drill Sergeant Mindstrong
Fragile Dreams: Farewell Ruins of The Moon
JU-ON: The Grudge (already counted surely)
Little King's Story
Rune Factory: Frontier
The Sky Crawlers: Innocent Aces
Valhalla Knights: Eldar Saga
Victorious Boxers: Revolution (Same as Ju-On)

14...

Thanks. I was considering doing the same thing.

 

[thefro]

Do have an exact date on when the blog is supposed to start or is it some random "Japan Time" in March?

I vaguely think it's March 4th for some reason.

 

[thestopsign]

Do have an exact date on when the blog is supposed to start or is it some random "Japan Time" in March?

I vaguely think it's March 4th for some reason.

It's probably early morning March 2nd there.

 

[duckroll]

It's just March. Could be 31st March even. Don't hold your breath waiting for it.

 

[Sammy Samusu]

Have we discussed about which style they are going to aproach?

Cel Shaded +1

 

[AceBandage]

Have we discussed about which style they are going to aproach?

Cel Shaded +1

Pencil Shading

 

[Fritz]

Do have an exact date on when the blog is supposed to start or is it some random "Japan Time" in March?

I vaguely think it's March 4th for some reason.

Im hoping for an early famitsu reveal in the next 12 hours. *fingers crossed*

 

[duckroll]

There won't be no Famitsu anything as long as parts of 2ch remain shut down due to korean DDoS.

 

[AceBandage]

There won't be no Famitsu anything as long as parts of 2ch remain shut down due to korean DDoS.

Dreams crushed.
Lives ruined.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Pencil Shading

Fur-shaded.

An entire world populated by furries. Even the rocks and water's furry.

 

[silverbullet1080]

I couldn't remember if the scan visor was his idea or not.

He suggested the ability to switch how Samus views the world. Retro turned that into the visor system.

 

[Sammy Samusu]

He suggested the ability to switch how Samus views the world. Retro turned that into the visor system.

Not sure how it's related to The Last Story, but...

"We're pretty late in development and Nintendo kept saying ‘there’s something missing.’ And they delivered us the concept of the scan visor, and though it was late in development, we placed one artist and one programmer just on the scan visor and made sure it was completed. Because this was another aspect that Nintendo felt was critical to the project."

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16389

Nintendo difference acting again?

 

[neo2046]

http://www.mistwalkercorp.com/en/column/index.html

Production of the last story is advancing smoothly. But, I want you to understand how difficult it is to finish the last fixes and it is time consuming in RPG creation. There is an unknown territory for me because of the real time system exists in it. But I believe that the hurdle will invent something new. Of course, it's possible to finish it really quick, but the effort we put in in 2years would be wasted. The final seasoning is very important. So I made up my mind carefully and I'm working with scrupulous attention. Anyway the sense of security is necessary to the foundation so that you can enjoy yourself without any logic.

 

[Hiltz]

For not being much of an RPG fan, I find myself fairly interested in The Last Story. I think the beautiful music played on the game's website has something to do with it.

I'm a bit concerned about how the game will end up. I mean, Mistwalker's produced a mixed bag of RPGs. I hope it gets things right this time with their Wii title.