Support NeoGAF

[Abriael_GN]

mean it isn't though. Like I said, especially when it comes to console games, you are working within set parameters that are likely never going to change.

The hardware doesn't change, but the software does.

The silicon is only part of the equation determining the resources available to a developer. APIs, optimization methods, drivers, and all that jazz changes radically over 6 years even on the same hardware. I'm not sure what's unclear about this.

 

[Majukun]

They're good games, all of them. But it's fine to acknowledge that plenty of these super pretty games have pushed engine technology forward and made an open world game like Breath of the Wild possible on the Switch's mobile chipset. Nintendo haven't really been part of that push - unless you include Windwaker. BotW was Nintendo's first foray into open world design, and it was excellent, but it was developers like Rock Star, Ubisoft and Bethesda that paved the way for that.

The single biggest issue it addresses is the lack of reward in the game. Most games can fill weapons with chests and armour pieces because they scale across the playthrough and more powerful ones replace old ones, while old ones are sold on or dismantled. BotW doesn't really have a system like that, so weapons would soon because meaningless if you found them in every chest. Making them breakable means that they can keep handing them out as rewards indefinitely.

yes, but also weapons in that game are the currency you spend to interact with the world.
a currency system only works if the currency is somehow scarce, or at least not infinite.
is the scarcity of resources, weapons included, that forces you to make meaningful decision, which is pretty much what the essence of gameplay is

I will always make the example of mining in the game

You have 3 options throughout the game

weapon
pickaxe
bombs

thanks to the degradation system and how it interacts with the rest of the systems in place, all three options have pro and cons

using a weapon means not wasting a slot in the inventory for a pickaxe, but they also degrade extremely fast when used for mining, so if you use exclusively this method, you are gonna find yourself out of weapons very soon

pickaxes are the optimamal solution for mining, but they are lousy weapons and thus you basically have to sacrifice a slot in the inventory for it.

bombs seem the catch all solution, they are infinite and waste no sace in the inventory, but their explosions makes materials fly everywhere, and considering that most mining spots are on the side of mountains, it means that you will often lose part of them or have to waste time chasing them at the bottom of some valley.

this creates a balanced system that forces the player to make constant decision about what to use and what to save, what to exchange for what, a game of currencies.

make weapons indestructible, and the whole thing collapses.

 

[Impotaku]

Should have called it legend of zelda: tears of the graphic whores.

 

[HofT]

There are plenty of open-world games on PC that leave it in the dust, and not by a small margin.

What do you think makes it so innovative that other games haven't done better and without the glaring limitations and crappy graphics?

Do you see your problem? You're not giving me any substance to actually have a discussion. What am I suppose to compare? Like, I already described to you the core gameplay elements that I enjoyed about the game. So, I'm not sure what you're looking for in a response, other than what I've already stated. You simply don't like the game because it heavily emphasis on exploration and survival.

 

[Punished Miku]

TL;DR : Exploration needs good rewards, because there's no incentive at all without it.

That's where Nintendo tends to deviate away from the hamster wheel of incentives. They mostly strip away all incentives. No achievements. Limited leveling up in most games. Limited inventory. Just get points, coins, stars, etc.

The point is to create a gameplay and traversal system that is inherently enjoyable, accentuated by level design that compliments emergent gameplay. If the actual gameplay wasn't there, stripping away incentives would instantly expose it. Instead it usually just highlights that.

 

[Danjin44]

Ah yes, the famous take : "exploration is about exploration".

Like what, is Elden Ring not about exploration too ?

The difference is that Elden Ring REWARDS exploration with weapons, armor, spells, ashes of war, spirit ashes, items that are used for stats progression (smithing stones), lore, and great bosses.
Basically what makes you feel stronger as you play the game and overcome new challenges.

So why even explore in BotW ? So you can just loose more weapons to get other weapons ? What's the point ?
The only good rewards in the game (outside of the very basic like life and stamina, which other games do too so there's nothing to write about) were the armors. You know, the equipment that actually don't break and make you feel like you've gained something that can be useful for the rest of the game. Like the Zora Armor, the Sheikah armor, the climbing armor.
These were useful.

But most of the time, the rewards for exploration were ANOTHER shrine in which you already know what the reward will be : yet another weapon that will break and an orb. What a great way to kill any interest in exploration, past the twenty first hours, good job Nintendo.

TL;DR : Exploration needs good rewards, because there's no incentive at all without it.

Elden Ring is RPG about building you states so you get stronger just like most RPGs out there, BotW is not about that, They created interactive sand box not only to discover but interact to it, I LOVE Elden Ring but your main way you interact in that world is fighting and only fighting, thats the main focus of that game.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Lols

 

[mortal]

That was a great demo, I can already tell the Fuse ability will be a fan favorite.
Assuming there's a generous amount of fusible objects in the game world, this will probably result in a lot of fusions the devs haven't even thought up themselves. Gonna be plenty of curious fun.

 

[Art The Clown]

2023 might be the best year in game in a long time.

 

[DGrayson]

I am not a fan of crafting at all and this is looking worse and worse from that aspect.

 

[Variahunter]

I get it, but... there's a huge difference between having to go into some dedicated "workshop" interface to build vehicles, versus having free construction & combination powers over everything around you in the world as you explore.

I get what you're saying, but they also handplace the needed parts next to the lake you need to traverse in this demo.

Like, "be creative" but it also feels like we're given all the pieces needed right in front of us for each puzzle. Maybe it won't always be like that.

And it also feels like busy work. In BotW, when you need to cross a lake, well they just place the raft next to it. Now we need to build it. I'm not sure it's a good evolution. Could be fun, yes. For a while.

My point is, it seems like they concentrated their effort on the minecraft aspect of the game, not on the core aspect of what makes a Zelda games (great dungeons, great items as rewards, exploration that opens and expands with the items).

 

[NewYork214]

The destructible weapons made me hate BoTW for such a long time. Eventually glitches the master sword early and finally saw the love for the game.

New fuse feature just made me super excited for this. Just did the 2 voucher thing for $100. Fire emblem heros and $70 zelda game for $100 bucks. Well worth it

 

[AJUMP23]

Oh it has weapon durability.
Pass.
Botw was an aggressively mediocre game and I'm not buying more of the same

 

[Schmendrick]

This game just begs to be emulated with RT Reshade in 4k/60...
That + the infinite durability mod that made the last game actually playable.

 

[Hendrick's]

Hate that weapons still break, but the fusing could be interesting. Still seems like it makes weapons more or less disposable and that will likely make loot less exciting again.

I also can't help but feel this game is wasted on the Switch. Imagine what this would be like if developed for a modern console.

 

[Abriael_GN]

You simply don't like the game because it heavily emphasis on exploration and survival.

No. I don't like the game because it looks like crap and it has a major element of annoyance.

Whatever exploration and survival it has doesn't make up for it, because other games that don't look as crappy do it better, and don't need to "encourage" it by breaking your weapon every few strikes like it was made of butter and hubris.

Good exploration and survival mechanics don't need artificial encouragement.

 

[DGrayson]

Video starts with what looks like Link's naked ass clipping through the seat of the horse. Weapon durability is back in. New Minecraft mode and added tedium to cross a river or fight an enemy.

I dunno, not feeling it. I miss the tightly designed gameplay and puzzles of past Zelda games. I hope this has more classic dungeons at least, this "create your own gameplay" stuff just doesn't resonate with me.

It'd be nice if they made a new top-down Zelda for fans of the original formula alongside this.

100% this. I dont know why they cannot have a classic team developing classic Zeldas.

 

[Variahunter]

Elden Ring is RPG about building you states so you get stronger just like most RPGs out there, BotW is not that about, They created interactive sand box not only to discover but interact to it, I LOVE Elden Ring but your main way you interact in that world is fighting and only fighting, thats the main focus of that game.

False, fighting is the main element yes, but exploration, good environment analysis and good orientation to reach your destination with careful platforming are also part of the game.

It does not have the puzzle aspect or physics system of Zelda of course.

And Zelda doesn't have good rewards for exploration, making that aspect somewhat boring after twenty or so hours of gameplay. Zelda doesn't have a good combat system. Zelda doesn't have a good progression system.

For a game that is centered mainly around exploration, that aspect shouldn't run off of steam after some hours, that is not good game design. And for a first draft like BotW where they had all these systems, physics, creating the map, the assets and so on, we could forgive those obvious flaws because they were countered by the sheer novelty of all the other aspects and freedom.

For a direct sequel that took 6 years to make (same as BotW), that reuse the same fucking map, all the previous systems already made, reuse all the assets and even musics, just to add some new mechanics and islands in the sky ?
The bare minimum is to adress all the problems that BotW had, making a good and engaging battle system, completely rework the weapon breaking problem in a satisfying way (notlikethis.gif), show drastic changes on the map, and completely rethink their exploration loop with great rewards, which I'm not sure they did considering weapon are still breaking and we have the Hand abilities similar to the sheikah tablet, hence not allowing items.
The fact that we have all the abilities right at the beginning greatly hampered the feeling of progression in BotW, and for now I'm not sure they adressed this problem as they're really concentrating their presentation and trailers on the sandbox / minecraft aspect.

Honestly what I've seen feels like BotW 1.2. Not even 1.5.

MM's was a game that reuse all the assets, but also took place in a completely different map, with new uniques NPCs and a great agenda system that leads to the best side quest in the entire series. And the masks. It felt like a true sequel with new items that just happen to reuse the graphics assets and engine, which I'm fine with.

 

[Sleepwalker]

100% this. I dont know why they cannot have a classic team developing classic Zeldas.

A link between worlds was fantastic. Give us more

 

[HofT]

No. I don't like the game because it looks like crap and it has a major element of annoyance.

Whatever exploration and survival it has doesn't make up for it, because other games that don't look as crappy do it better, and don't need to "encourage" it by breaking your weapon every few strikes like it was made of butter and hubris.

Good exploration and survival mechanics don't need artificial encouragement.

I got good news for you. It looks like with this new game those elements of gameplay in BotW that you described as annoying are being more streamlined. But the catch is you still have to be creative in how you combat and traverse the world. Maybe that's the part you don't like?

 

[TheGodfather07]

Great point, I would love if they went back to making some catchy tunes instead of the sparse piano notes they went with for BotW.

Would be nice if we got more towns this time as well as dungeons with unique dungeon themes.

Yeah I was really hoping they improve on that aspect. I recently replayed both wind waker and twilight princess on wii u. The music is sooo good. Its one of the main thing i love about zelda. Like you said, not a fan of the new style with the sparse piano notes here and there. Music can make a massive difference in games.

 

[Thabass]

100% this. I dont know why they cannot have a classic team developing classic Zeldas.

 

[HofT]

Elden Ring is RPG about building you states so you get stronger just like most RPGs out there, BotW is not about that, They created interactive sand box not only to discover but interact to it, I LOVE Elden Ring but your main way you interact in that world is fighting and only fighting, thats the main focus of that game.

BotW does emphasis on Link preparing himself or getting stronger for the final battle. It's just Elden ring doubles down on states whereas BotW is more about environmental survival.

 

[Variahunter]

One other point in favor of Majora's Mask :

It did take 1,5 years to develop. Not 6 years !

 

[Fuz]

That's where Nintendo tends to deviate away from the hamster wheel of incentives. They mostly strip away all incentives. No achievements. Limited leveling up in most games. Limited inventory. Just get points, coins, stars, etc.

The point is to create a gameplay and traversal system that is inherently enjoyable, accentuated by level design that compliments emergent gameplay. If the actual gameplay wasn't there, stripping away incentives would instantly expose it. Instead it usually just highlights that.

It's sad that people have been trained to be lab rats pushing a button for pleasure.

 

[ADiTAR]

One other point in favor of Majora's Mask :

It did take 1,5 years to develop. Not 6 years !

Def comparable. You make a lot of sense!

 

[nordique]

I can’t wait for this game

 

[HofT]

False, fighting is the main element yes, but exploration, good environment analysis and good orientation to reach your destination with careful platforming are also part of the game.

It does not have the puzzle aspect or physics system of Zelda of course.

And Zelda doesn't have good rewards for exploration, making that aspect somewhat boring after twenty or so hours of gameplay. Zelda doesn't have a good combat system. Zelda doesn't have a good progression system.

For a game that is centered mainly around exploration, that aspect shouldn't run off of steam after some hours, that is not good game design. And for a first draft like BotW where they had all these systems, physics, creating the map, the assets and so on, we could forgive those obvious flaws because they were countered by the sheer novelty of all the other aspects and freedom.

For a direct sequel that took 6 years to make (same as BotW), that reuse the same fucking map, all the previous systems already made, reuse all the assets and even musics, just to add some new mechanics and islands in the sky ?
The bare minimum is to adress all the problems that BotW had, making a good and engaging battle system, completely rework the weapon breaking problem in a satisfying way (notlikethis.gif), show drastic changes on the map, and completely rethink their exploration loop with great rewards, which I'm not sure they did considering weapon are still breaking and we have the Hand abilities similar to the sheikah tablet, hence not allowing items.
The fact that we have all the abilities right at the beginning greatly hampered the feeling of progression in BotW, and for now I'm not sure they adressed this problem as they're really concentrating their presentation and trailers on the sandbox / minecraft aspect.

Honestly what I've seen feels like BotW 1.2. Not even 1.5.

MM's was a game that reuse all the assets, but also took place in a completely different map, with new uniques NPCs and a great agenda system that leads to the best side quest in the entire series. And the masks. It felt like a true sequel with new items that just happen to reuse the graphics assets and engine, which I'm fine with.

There are numerous rewards in BotW like:

1. Hearts and Stamina Vessels: These are earned by completing Shrines, which are scattered throughout the game's open world. Hearts and Stamina Vessels increase the player's health and stamina meters, respectively.
2. Korok Seeds: These are hidden throughout the game's world and can be exchanged with Hestu for additional inventory slots.
3. Armor Sets: There are various armor sets that can be acquired throughout the game, each with unique attributes that provide different benefits.
4. Weapons and Shields: Players can acquire a wide variety of weapons and shields, each with different strengths and weaknesses.
5. Rupees: The game's currency, rupees can be used to purchase items and equipment from merchants.
6. Divine Beasts: These are massive mechanical creatures that can be tamed and used to defeat bosses and gain access to new areas. These are the games main dungeons.
7. Spirit Orbs: These are earned by completing Shrines and can be used to increase the player's maximum hearts or stamina.
8. Master Sword: A powerful sword that can be acquired by completing a series of trials.
9. Elemental Arrows: These are special arrows that can be acquired throughout the game, each with different elemental effects.
10. Memories: By collecting certain items scattered throughout the game's world, players can trigger memories that provide backstory and insight into the game's characters and plot.
    
    And obviously simply finding the 120 Shrines is a reward in itself. They're fun mini dungeons which challenges the player and tests their skills and abilities. Each Shrine features a unique puzzle or obstacle that the player must overcome in order to complete it. These challenges can range from combat trials, to puzzle-solving, to even completing an obstacle course. Plus, it opens up the map and also allows players to quickly move around the game's large open world.

And with this progression/reward system, it helps and grows the player to be prepared for the final battle.

 

[SaintALia]

The hardware doesn't change, but the software does.

The silicon is only part of the equation determining the resources available to a developer. APIs, optimization methods, drivers, and all that jazz changes radically over 6 years even on the same hardware. I'm not sure what's unclear about this.

The hardware limits your software. You can only push your software as much as your hardware allows.

"I'm not sure what's unclear about this."

I agree. What is unclear?

As a developer you are bound by what your hardware allows you to do. This is a fact I doubt any developer or even anyone on a videogame forum would disagree to. You can't run Crysis/Last of Us 2 at full blast(absolutely no graphical compromises) on a PS2/PS3. BUT you can make SEVERE cuts in key areas to get some semblance of those games running on those hardware.

"APIs, optimization methods, drivers, and all that jazz changes" Are not magic bullets that when you say them instantly propel your game to graphical heaven. You are still constrained by your hardware and dictated by what your game design allows. If you are a heavily physics driven game you may face CPU bottlenecks even if your GPU can technically manage more. And even then, if you do expand and expound on that physics driven gameplay, you may run into even more bottlenecks and constraints given your hardware. Altho it is weird, I've seen people use 'optimisation' like it is some kind of magic bullet, as if the developers just simply 'optimised' their engine and it looked better when i encomapsses far more than that.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

100% this. I dont know why they cannot have a classic team developing classic Zeldas.

A link between worlds was fantastic. Give us more

Agreed, Link Between Worlds was amazing.

This is one of the areas that sadly suffered a bit with the "unified platform" approach of the Switch. We used to have 2 main branches for each franchise, one for the big screen and one for portable, and things like ALBW were perfect for the portable side (and Wario Land platformers, smaller Mario games, etc). Now with the single platform, that has fallen off a bit. Metroid might be coming close, with the Fusion-styled 2D game released while we wait for a new Prime.

 

[Banjo64]

The TotK Oled is spectacular. Nintendo always save their best custom consoles for Zelda.

 

[Fully engaged]

Or they just don't care to pay full price for a product that has an aspect that's evidently and very visibly sub-par, nor to bend over twice to find excuses for that.

So.. a shitty experience with the same old mechanics, a linier story in a fake open world for years on end is fine as long as it looks more and more like uncanny valley, but a game with a distinct art style, unique mechanics and player freedom is bad because it doesn't look like uncanny valley?
Got it.

 

[darrylgorn]

Looks like pretty good DLC.

 

[Guilhermegrg]

Man you would expect people would kind of know what to wait for, but no. Lots of "bad graphics" and "it's just a dlc".

It's the switch. If you didn't like the look of the first one, you ain't gonna like the sequel.

Also pretty naive to think they would show or even hint at all of the differences between them in this video or anytime soon.

That said, I personally am not convinced yet.

The way the fused branch with rock changed sizes when put away and swinging...just weird and off putting.

Mind you I like BOTW, but it was a hard sell. I really hated the first hours, expected a classic Zelda. I eventually gave that up and accepted the game as it is, but I fully understand anyone that hates BOTW.

I like the idea of combining the arrows with the materials, it gives more use to them but I am also weary.

The game might become too gimmicky, or too easy to break.

For instance when building the "boat" Link only hit one of the engines but both turned on.

So there's a lot going on there that is not explained yet.

6 years might look a lot of time, but adding mechanics like these where the number of combinations are huge .... It takes a bit of time to test properly.

I really hope they know what they are doing and that we can all be pleasantly surprised.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Imagine what this would be like if developed for a modern console.

A game lots of people still wouldn’t like or even play because of its mechanics?

If the people rambling about weapon durability, crafting and the lack of rewards would be so easily swayed if the game was in 4K 60fps with RT, a bunch of hypocrites is what they are.

 

[darrylgorn]

Man you would expect people would kind of know what to wait for, but no. Lots of "bad graphics" and "it's just a dlc".

It's the switch. If you didn't like the look of the first one, you ain't gonna like the sequel.

Also pretty naive to think they would show or even hint at all of the differences between them in this video or anytime soon.

That said, I personally am not convinced yet.

The way the fused branch with rock changed sizes when put away and swinging...just weird and off putting.

Min dyou I like BOTW, but it was a hard sell. I really hated the first hours, expected a classic Zelda. I eventually gave that up and accepted the game as it is, but I fully understand anyone that hates BOTW.

I liked the idea of combining the arrows with the materials, it gives more use to them but I am also weary.

The game might become too gimmicky, or too easy to break.

For instance when building the "boat" Link only hit one of the engines but both turned on.

So there's a lot going on there that is not explained yet.

6 years might look a lot of time, but adding mechanics like these where the number of combinations are huge .... It takes a bit of time to test properly.

I really hope they know what they are doing and that we can all be pleasantly surprised.

Bro, I said it looked like pretty good DLC.

Jaysus.

 

[Mr Branding]

Pass from me. Not big on crafting and minecraft looking mechanics and Botw was/is hugely overrated.

 

[TonyK]

I will buy it for the Switch 2.

 

[Guilhermegrg]

Bro, I said it looked like pretty good DLC.

Jaysus.

I didn't even had read your entry when I wrote my message. So... Don't feel personally attacked because it was not meant for you?

The message is just my general take on this new video and the whole thread.

 

[Woopah]

To me this games looks like a sequel in terms of mechanics but DLC in terms of content. Obvousy a lot of the content will be kept secret but I do hope we see more enemy/boss/environment variey before the game comes out.

100% this. I dont know why they cannot have a classic team developing classic Zeldas.

Hopefully Grezzo is indeed making a new 2D Zelda.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The new mechanics are great. It would be funny if we could attach enemies dead bodies to a stick as weapons. Keese eyes as homing arrows is pretty cool.

Building a windpowered raft out of 3 logs and 2 spinners is pretty cool.

Graphics look fine and will be better on the Switch. As per usual Youtube video compression is awful.

Reexploring BotW's Hyrule is going to be a trip. Glad I preordered.

Sky Islands and Hyrule seems seamless transition too!!

 

[Trunim]

I was on the hunt for a Switch console solely for this game. After this gameplay video I don't think I want to anymore. It looked very lackluster...the graphics are really the same too. Bland. Yeah yeah, it's all cool with the fuse thing but for me that doesn't cut it. Oh well. Not what I expected after 6 years.

 

[Banjo64]

I also can't help but feel this game is wasted on the Switch. Imagine what this would be like if developed for a modern console.

Crackdown 3.

 

[darrylgorn]

I didn't even had read your entry when I wrote my message. So... Don't feel personally attacked because it was not meant for you?

The message is just my general take on this new video and the whole thread.

I'm just joshing, it's all good.

 

[Marvel14]

The crafting in this game will be INSANE.

Love that there are new enemies too...

And caves as a way to quickly get to a high place with restrictions? I bet the restrictions are dungeons....

Couldn't see any shrines in the demo...

 

[Marvel14]

Looks like pretty good DLC.

Yeah no...DLC doesn't redefine gameplay the way this will.

The only thing that's DLC is the graphics style, basic movement and maybe 40% of the map- probably less.

 

[Azelover]

Where were the graphics whores when all the previous trailers were released? It always looked like this.

Are we possibly seeing an astroturfing situation?

 

[Marvel14]

It looks cool, but it really feels like an expansion rather than a sequel. Still, Breath of the Wild is one of my favorite games of all time, despite not being a huge Zelda fan, so getting more of the same doesn't bother me in this case.

How can you think its more of the same after that demo? Sure the graphic style is the same engine and it has same core movement mechanics...but that's about it.

 

[Musashipan]

The title should be:
Zelda: Tears of sonyfanboys

 

[darrylgorn]

Yeah no...DLC doesn't redefine gameplay the way this will.

The only thing that's DLC is the graphics style, basic movement and maybe 40% of the map- probably less.

I'm still waiting for BOTW to redefine gameplay.

I'm sure this will be another decent game.