The Naughty Dog Agenda - RobinGaming

Nov 24, 2012
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munich
Instead of just embracing the meme, people have invented this weird phrase of yours that shows just how offended they are. Not very smart.
This Southpark style moral relativism leads nowhere. Its not a meme. Its ideology. Regressive ideology.
But see, I don't have a problem with insults, its not like I have been polity towards people here so far. I specifically logged onto GAF after like at least a year because I wanted to discuss this topic and I knew that I wouldn't find anyone with opposing views on ResetEra.
After I tried on Youtube and Twitter to figure out what peoples actual problem was without success, I tried here. Also without success. All I found out is that there seems to be significant overlap between the anti-feminist, Gamergate and "I'm concerned about agenda in muh gamz" crowds.
I get why GAF formerly and ERA wants to keep these people out. For the most part they're toxic for any kind of proper debate.
But I think its still important to regularly check up if the views have evolved in any way. And now, it appears, GAF is a good place to do that.


What is not right about.
Start with the fact that he talks about "changing established characters" which didn't happen in TLoU2.
Also, referring to the introduction of lesbian characters as "pushing them into obscurity" is a very weird choice of words.
What exactly is obscure about homosexual romance in games?


It's not merely criticism. I don't know how much clearer I could have spelled that distinction out. Your claim was "all they do is criticize games" No, that's not all they do.
Why wouldn't "moral condemnation", as you called it, be criticism?


No, that's not true. In fact it's dead wrong. Censorship is defined as "the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security." The government may be the only entity capable of prohibition. But several different entities are capable of suppression.
"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient" as determined by government authorities."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship#Creative_censorship


If you show up to a speaking event and use shouting and noise makers to drown out a invited guest speaker, rendering him unable to be heard, you are engaging in censorship. That's just one of many non-governmental forms censorship can take.
Technically that is a disturbance, not censorship.

Can you cite any activity by games journalists you'd categorize as censorship?

From the ACLU website "what is censorship?" :

The idea that "only the government can censor" is just more far left bubble talk.
What the ACLU describes here (Hollywood blacklists etc.) is technically libel.
Suppressing speech as a non government entity is always a crime, at least in all the scenarios I can think of.
 
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Why wouldn't "moral condemnation", as you called it, be criticism?

"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient" as determined by government authorities."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship#Creative_censorship

Technically that is a disturbance, not censorship.

Can you cite any activity by games journalists you'd categorize as censorship?

What the ACLU describes here (Hollywood blacklists etc.) is technically libel.
Suppressing speech as a non government entity is always a crime, at least in all the scenarios I can think of.
I don't think the issue is that you don't understand, but rather that you don't want to understand. You can try to use different definitions for what you are doing, but in the end you are simply trying to silence the voices and point of views you do not like, protected under a mantle of false moral superiority. Which is what the extreme left loves to do, banish to the underworld anyone that doesn't agree with their views.

Now, wasn't there a few groups and maybe a couple of governments that used to do that? But to you making that comparison is outrageous, because you are on the right side of history. You becoming offended at something is reason enough to banish it, because you have the entire backing of morality behind you, right?

The arrogance is tremendous.
 
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Musky_Cheese

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Oct 23, 2016
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This Southpark style moral relativism leads nowhere. Its not a meme. Its ideology. Regressive ideology.
But see, I don't have a problem with insults, its not like I have been polity towards people here so far. I specifically logged onto GAF after like at least a year because I wanted to discuss this topic and I knew that I wouldn't find anyone with opposing views on ResetEra.
After I tried on Youtube and Twitter to figure out what peoples actual problem was without success, I tried here. Also without success. All I found out is that there seems to be significant overlap between the anti-feminist, Gamergate and "I'm concerned about agenda in muh gamz" crowds.
I get why GAF formerly and ERA wants to keep these people out. For the most part they're toxic for any kind of proper debate.
But I think its still important to regularly check up if the views have evolved in any way. And now, it appears, GAF is a good place to do that.



Start with the fact that he talks about "changing established characters" which didn't happen in TLoU2.
Also, referring to the introduction of lesbian characters as "pushing them into obscurity" is a very weird choice of words.
What exactly is obscure about homosexual romance in games?



Why wouldn't "moral condemnation", as you called it, be criticism?



"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient" as determined by government authorities."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship#Creative_censorship



Technically that is a disturbance, not censorship.

Can you cite any activity by games journalists you'd categorize as censorship?



What the ACLU describes here (Hollywood blacklists etc.) is technically libel.
Suppressing speech as a non government entity is always a crime, at least in all the scenarios I can think of.
Naughty Dog is toying at least with the idea of making 2 characters from uncharted gay. Chloe is an established character. Shown to have romances with men.

Not an issue with gay characters at all. But changing a characters sexuality or race or gender for nothing is odd.

If they suddenly made Ellie not gay, that would be odd too.
 
Aug 29, 2014
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Naughty Dog is toying at least with the idea of making 2 characters from uncharted gay. Chloe is an established character. Shown to have romances with men.

Not an issue with gay characters at all. But changing a characters sexuality or race or gender for nothing is odd.

If they suddenly made Ellie not gay, that would be odd too.
Can you imagine the backlash that would happen if Ellie was made straight. I could easily see it reaching Good Morning America and the View.
 
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What the ACLU describes here (Hollywood blacklists etc.) is technically libel.
Suppressing speech as a non government entity is always a crime, at least in all the scenarios I can think of.
The ACLU is very clear in how they define censorship. They include private pressure groups in their definition. The article goes on to address an extremely wide breadth of topics related to speech attitudes, obscenity & media influence and none of them diminish the clarity of their definition.

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient" as determined by government authorities."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship#Creative_censorship
Literally the next line in that wiki article is "Governments and private organizations may engage in censorship" with a pending citation. This is obviously something being contested for that article because the line hasn't been removed. Why would you act like it's not? You can go check the talk section to see how that'll shake out if you want to keep sourcing this in the future. I'll stick with the dictionary definition & the ACLU.

Why wouldn't "moral condemnation", as you called it, be criticism?
Woah... I'm gonna sound like a broken record here. It's not merely criticism. As in all moral condemnation is criticism but not all criticism is moral condemnation. I'm not gonna explain that again so if it doesn't stick this time then fuck it.
 
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Quoting myself:
Does that answer not satisfy you? Do people want credit now for not complaining about female characters or what?
Haha. Not at all. This is the point of convergence where this daft argument falls apart. Your position is that we all must have issues centred on homophobia or insecurity. And now you're saying it's because Bill, Marlene, Henry, Sam, Maria, Riley etc. were all easy to ignore. Yet we can't ignore Dina and Ellie. It's also not an issue when people play games like LiS etc. Do you realise how daft that sounds?


Q
"creeping theme" as if it were a sinister goal to have more diverse representation in games, especially when you are in the business of making mature, story and character focussed games.
Creeping theme of fan service I guess? Like I pointed out TLoU had a very diverse cast and no one batted an eye. So they have to go more in your face to keep the plaudits flowing. It's insincere. We already knew Ellie's sexuality anyway. You're right they are mature themes, so there is no need to portray them so flippantly.


Q
To NaughtyDog it is important because they believe the medium can be more than it currently is and a first step in that direction is better representation.
It is important, and it's noble. And I have no issue with it when its done tastefully. A straight girl, newly single throwing herself at the lesbian and 'making out' is not tasteful. At all. As though Ellie is so desperate she just stands there and accepts it? The medium can be more than it currently is but you can't fast track it because you're chasing the accolades.


Qu
But apparently you fear that will have a negative effect on your enjoyment of the game. Isn't that the entire people are trying to make here. "What if NaughtyDog goes too far with their agenda? I don't like SJW propaganda!"
No. Again, this is something that you've manifested from nowhere. The need for acclaim is influencing presentation and therefore compromising some of the quality. Also, it's wrong to chase that acclaim. Create your 'art' or game and let it be appreciated. Chasing applause leads to madness.


Yes, but if you say its forced you need to have some standards as to what exactly about it is forced.
The game wants to have an openly gay protagonist, thats an integral part of the character and the character is the main focal point of the story.
Making a trailer showing Ellie in a relaxed setting seemingly enjoying a normal life and juxtapose that with intense violence is quite brilliant.
You'd have make up incredibly arbitrary and ridiculous standards to call to "forced".
You seem a decent person but I don't think we're going to agree. The game has an openly gay protagonist. It had a gay supporting character as well. I think you're reaching with 'quite brilliant' as well. It's a basic concept of calm versus chaos. Not that it's bad but when it it needs to be done exceptionally well to not come off ham fisted, which this did. Individually both scenes are fine, even the transition (technically) is fine but together the segue does not work. It's like watching a scene from 13 Reasons Why then straight into a scene from the Punisher or Equaliser.

Peace out :)

edit: I suggest we settle this in TLoU 2 multiplayer when it releases. A duel to the death? :D
 
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Nov 24, 2012
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munich
I agree. SJWism is like a mindless cult, either you follow the line of thinking or you will be abolished without second thought. Good to see you found some enlightenment here on GAF.
At least they're not hailing mentally challenged Youtubers as their idols.

Naughty Dog is toying at least with the idea of making 2 characters from uncharted gay. Chloe is an established character. Shown to have romances with men.

Not an issue with gay characters at all. But changing a characters sexuality or race or gender for nothing is odd.

If they suddenly made Ellie not gay, that would be odd too.
Chloe could easily be bisexual, that wouldn't seem weird or odd at all.
The same is true for Ellie. Although, given that NaughtyDog is aware how many of their fans identity with Ellie because of her sexuality, I doubt they'll do that.
Chloe on the other hand isn't as locked down by fans expectations. But she also isn't really the relationship type. A lesbian romance would be totally in line with her character. A lesbian relationship, or a straight one for that matter, wouldn't be as realistic, unless they want to repeat Nates "settle down" storyline with her, which I doubt.


I don't think the issue is that you don't understand, but rather that you don't want to understand. You can try to use different definitions for what you are doing, but in the end you are simply trying to silence the voices and point of views you do not like, protected under a mantle of false moral superiority. Which is what the extreme left loves to do, banish to the underworld anyone that doesn't agree with their views.
Can't help it. Habermasian discourse ethics is something very smart if you ask me. In theory the bad arguments aren't silenced, as you say, but weeded out, simply by the fact that rational actors drop flawed positions when presented with a better argument. "Der zwanglose Zwang des besseren Arguments"
This works in an academic setting, not so much on the internet, though.


Now, wasn't there a few groups and maybe a couple of governments that used to do that? But to you making that comparison is outrageous, because you are on the right side of history. You becoming offended at something is reason enough to banish it, because you have the entire backing of morality behind you, right?

The arrogance is tremendous.
You have a completely wrong understanding of my position. I don't want to "banish" anything.
I just want to be able, and I am, to call sexists sexists, racists racists and homophobes homophobes, as well as accurately categorize the respective content.

If you remember some of my early posts in this thread. I believe that my side is winning. The majority of developers have got and understood the message and are actively working towards fixing the issues of lacking diversity and representation in gaming.
We already started seeing the impacts of the debate that was started some years ago.
This development also doesn't have losers. It simply means better characters, better stories and better settings for everyone.
You'll be fine with it, too.
 

Musky_Cheese

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At least they're not hailing mentally challenged Youtubers as their idols.



Chloe could easily be bisexual, that wouldn't seem weird or odd at all.
The same is true for Ellie. Although, given that NaughtyDog is aware how many of their fans identity with Ellie because of her sexuality, I doubt they'll do that.
Chloe on the other hand isn't as locked down by fans expectations. But she also isn't really the relationship type. A lesbian romance would be totally in line with her character. A lesbian relationship, or a straight one for that matter, wouldn't be as realistic, unless they want to repeat Nates "settle down" storyline with her, which I doubt.



Can't help it. Habermasian discourse ethics is something very smart if you ask me. In theory the bad arguments aren't silenced, as you say, but weeded out, simply by the fact that rational actors drop flawed positions when presented with a better argument. "Der zwanglose Zwang des besseren Arguments"
This works in an academic setting, not so much on the internet, though.




You have a completely wrong understanding of my position. I don't want to "banish" anything.
I just want to be able, and I am, to call sexists sexists, racists racists and homophobes homophobes, as well as accurately categorize the respective content.

If you remember some of my early posts in this thread. I believe that my side is winning. The majority of developers have got and understood the message and are actively working towards fixing the issues of lacking diversity and representation in gaming.
We already started seeing the impacts of the debate that was started some years ago.
This development also doesn't have losers. It simply means better characters, better stories and better settings for everyone.
You'll be fine with it, too.
No. Chloe and Nadine have been shown to be in straight relationships in some way or another.

Ellie is gay.

Changing either is in poor taste imo.
 
Nov 24, 2012
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munich
Also, because I've read it a couple of times here. I don't believe for a second that Ellies motivation in TLoU2 story will be that Dina gets murdered and she hunts her killers.
In fact, I think Dina is playing Ellie and will be some kind of antagonist, eventually getting killed by Ellie.
The "born again" folk can't be trusted.


No. Chloe and Nadine have been shown to be in straight relationships in some way or another.

Ellie is gay.

Changing either is in poor taste imo.
Bisexual people often are in straight relationships... until they aren't.
Thats what the "bi" indicates, they can go either way =)


All youtubers are mentally challenged, no exceptions.
I was referring only to the MundaneMatt, SargonOfAkkad type crowd.
#NotAllYoutubers
 

Musky_Cheese

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Also, because I've read it a couple of times here. I don't believe for a second that Ellies motivation in TLoU2 story will be that Dina gets murdered and she hunts her killers.
In fact, I think Dina is playing Ellie and will be some kind of antagonist, eventually getting killed by Ellie.
The "born again" folk can't be trusted.




Bisexual people often are in straight relationships... until they aren't.
Thats what the "bi" indicates, they can go either way =)



I was referring only to the MundaneMatt, SargonOfAkkad type crowd.
#NotAllYoutubers
So everyone in Naughty Dog universes are bi? Ellie, Drake, Sully?
 
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I agree. SJWism is like a mindless cult, either you follow the line of thinking or you will be abolished without second thought. Good to see you found some enlightenment here on GAF.
This seems hyperbolic. Honest question: what would you call someone who probably disagrees with Anita more than agrees (but does sometimes agree), but finds the discussion interesting and important to just sort of keep in the back of your head. In general I think tropes are important to be aware of but can also be celebrated. Red Dwarf for example is one of my favorite shows.

Am I kicked out of the SJW group? Was I never in it to begin with? Would Anita hate me for not being in complete agreement with her? I don't get that impression but maybe you disagree.

For the record I've only seen a couple of her videos because I didn't think the analysis was particularly enlightening (I miss PBS Game/Show).
 
Nov 24, 2012
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munich
So everyone in Naughty Dog universes are bi? Ellie, Drake, Sully?
How did you get that from what I wrote?
I said lesbian romance wouldn't break Chloes characters, she might very well be bi.
I specifically said Ellie being bi is something I don't think would fit the character and I don't think NaughtyDog would want to do.
I never said a word about Nate or Sully. If you ask me Sully is a furry.

Don't talk about Anita that way. By the way, I noticed in your last post that you called REE an echo chamber. What's up with that? :whistle:
I wouldn't call it an echo chamber. They just value inclusiveness and ban offensive speech.
It has its upsides, in many topics it leads to more civilized debates and it certainly leads to more people from the industry showing up and interacting.
I happen to not be very interested in talking to people who basically are of the same opinions as me. My Twitter timeline is basically 80% right wing media. I think the best way to strengthen ones own positions is to be well aware of all the conflicting positions.
But I am also aware of the fact that I am basically rich, cis, white, male who lives in Germanys most expensive city, so I am not a victim of any sort and I can deal with lots of things. However people who are actually on the receiving end of racism, sexism or homophobia might want to be able to escape that some times, at least when they are talking about their hobbies.
So no, I don't think the moderation over at Era is wrong in any way.

Also, excluding certain opinions doesn't automatically mean you have an echo chamber. For example, my University doesn't accept climate change deniers as speakers in any form, because their position is wrong, they adhere to no scientific method and therefore their opinions have no place in an academic setting.
 
Nov 24, 2012
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munich
Haha. Not at all. This is the point of convergence where this daft argument falls apart. Your position is that we all must have issues centred on homophobia or insecurity. And now you're saying it's because Bill, Marlene, Henry, Sam, Maria, Riley etc. were all easy to ignore. Yet we can't ignore Dina and Ellie. It's also not an issue when people play games like LiS etc. Do you realise how daft that sounds?
Mainstream, AAA, center stage.
Also, consider the history.
When the "Ballad of Gay Tony" released nobody complained that this characters sexuality was too on the nose. It was in the freaking title of the game.
But now that people have been incited by the anti-SJW crowd they are looking for shit to complain about.
BF5 got women fighting in WW2. Outrage. Zombies in COD are fine though.
The Last Of Us, a game tackling all kinds of mature themes, shows its female main character kissing a girl in a trailer. Outrage. An agenda is being forced down our throats.

Obviously there is always the possibility that some of the people who take part in this complaining are just lemmings following their "classical liberal" overlords from Youtube, but if you seriously look at that trailer and feel like someone is forcing an agenda down your throat, there is no other way to say it: You are the problem. No one else.


Creeping theme of fan service I guess? Like I pointed out TLoU had a very diverse cast and no one batted an eye. So they have to go more in your face to keep the plaudits flowing. It's insincere. We already knew Ellie's sexuality anyway. You're right they are mature themes, so there is no need to portray them so flippantly.
You really think they are doing this to spite you or to garner cheap praise from Waypoint and Polygon?
They do it because its the story they want to tell, because its the character they want to build. And they released this trailer because the scene showed us a new side of Ellie, a side that gives a lot of insight into how her character developed over the years that passed since the ending of TLoU1. And then it juxtaposes the peaceful fully setting with a violent one and insecure Ellie with ruthless Ellie, but what really stood out the most to me is how much more in place Ellie felt in the violent setting, compared to how she stood out like a sore thumb at the dance party.

All your paranoid fear about an agenda thats being forced down your throat makes you blind to how awesome and purposeful the trailer actually was.

It is important, and it's noble. And I have no issue with it when its done tastefully. A straight girl, newly single throwing herself at the lesbian and 'making out' is not tasteful. At all. As though Ellie is so desperate she just stands there and accepts it? The medium can be more than it currently is but you can't fast track it because you're chasing the accolades.
You know nothing about Dina. You're completely guided by your biases on this one. You make up a certain context in order to justify your concern.

No. Again, this is something that you've manifested from nowhere. The need for acclaim is influencing presentation and therefore compromising some of the quality. Also, it's wrong to chase that acclaim. Create your 'art' or game and let it be appreciated. Chasing applause leads to madness.
As I said before, if you think NaughtyDog is compromising on its artistic vision in order to get some cheap praise, you're delusional.


You seem a decent person but I don't think we're going to agree. The game has an openly gay protagonist. It had a gay supporting character as well. I think you're reaching with 'quite brilliant' as well. It's a basic concept of calm versus chaos.
With the added bonus of Ellie feeling out of place and weak in the calm, and completely at home in the chaos.
And also major vibes that Dina is manipulating Ellie.


Not that it's bad but when it it needs to be done exceptionally well to not come off ham fisted, which this did. Individually both scenes are fine, even the transition (technically) is fine but together the segue does not work.
Yeah, we on't agree on this one anytime soon. But I think you'll change your mind eventually.


edit: I suggest we settle this in TLoU 2 multiplayer when it releases. A duel to the death? :D
Eh, the only game I really play online is Wipeout Omega Collection.
But why not. I think my psn can still on my profile. If we still remember by the time the game releases...
 
Likes: Son_of_Zardoz
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This seems hyperbolic. Honest question: what would you call someone who probably disagrees with Anita more than agrees (but does sometimes agree), but finds the discussion interesting and important to just sort of keep in the back of your head. In general I think tropes are important to be aware of but can also be celebrated. Red Dwarf for example is one of my favorite shows.

Am I kicked out of the SJW group? Was I never in it to begin with? Would Anita hate me for not being in complete agreement with her? I don't get that impression but maybe you disagree.

For the record I've only seen a couple of her videos because I didn't think the analysis was particularly enlightening (I miss PBS Game/Show).
I don't think it's hyperbolic at all, just look at what's going on in the other forum. You get banned as soon as you step out of line. And if the mods have trouble controlling the narrative, thread gets closed. Just look at the recent Guild Wars 2 debacle. I don't know where you stand in the SJW food chain with your more nuanced approach. You have to ask them I suppose.

I wouldn't call it an echo chamber. They just value inclusiveness and ban offensive speech.
It has its upsides, in many topics it leads to more civilized debates and it certainly leads to more people from the industry showing up and interacting.
I happen to not be very interested in talking to people who basically are of the same opinions as me. My Twitter timeline is basically 80% right wing media. I think the best way to strengthen ones own positions is to be well aware of all the conflicting positions.
But I am also aware of the fact that I am basically rich, cis, white, male who lives in Germanys most expensive city, so I am not a victim of any sort and I can deal with lots of things. However people who are actually on the receiving end of racism, sexism or homophobia might want to be able to escape that some times, at least when they are talking about their hobbies.
So no, I don't think the moderation over at Era is wrong in any way.
:ROFLMAO: Sorry, I don't know what else to say to you
 
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1.2.1 Gigawatts I feel like your very eloquent in stating your views but just not very convincing. I enjoy your responses and it makes me think a little bit more on the issue. I also think they should have separated both scenes. I get that they are trying to create more of an impact with all of the death and dismemberment and a touching scene to surround it but it doesn't work for me. Maybe less focus on the kiss but bounce scenese from the dance and the fight scenes would have been better and have the kiss bring her out of it.

edit: the "I don't think the moderation over at Era is wrong in any way " is a bit much though.
 
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I've read the thread with great interest and I've tried my best to try and understand many things people are noticing or not noticing and their opinions.

I live quite a sheltered life and don't use Social Media at all nor am I really interested in Politics but I've liked some posts that at least seemed to have some elements of feasibility, even if just in part, or at least they at attempted to reflect in a fair way as per that persons point of view.

At this point I don't know who or what to believe because I don't have enough knowledge to make a judgement.

However, there seems to be quite some contradicting statements or a total dismissal of information. I have to ask why?

My personal take after watching the e3 trailer was that Ellie was being told how afraid people should be of her and then the scene of her showing why that should be the case. I thought it was really well done - the contrast between the two scenes if you like.

I'll continue to read this thread.
 
Jun 2, 2014
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In the first TLoU, I think Druckmann had to be way more restrained and subtle about his political agenda. Then Left Behind shows up to make it explicit to everyone that Ellie is a lesbian, which was surprising since the original story was way more subtle about that aspect of their characters. Uncharted 4 is where the cracks begin to appear, since it's mostly an Amy Hennig story and characters, but with insertions by Druckmann that were completely jarring. I'd be willing to bet Nadine was an insertion by Druckmann, given how she doesn't really fit with the rest of the tone of the game to me, as the video explains pretty well.

Now, given the presentation trailer of TLoU2, the main point of the trailer is that Ellie is a lesbian, not really that much about anything else. It's a trend I'm beginning to notice and I am not on board, that's not a game for me. I don't want to play a game with a story and political point of view to what I'd consider propaganda. It's a point of view I've seen, don't agree with, and I don't want to see more. Then again, we'll see.
If thats what you got from the trailer then the bias is probably on your part. The trailer is about the duality of the main character. He is a little girl that looks weak and shy and innocent because she is in love, at the same time, she lives in a world that is so fucked up that he brutally kills other people without any apparent sense of remorse. Thats what the trailer is about, and the message would be the same if she was kissing a girl or a boy. Sure, making her lesbian is a nod to the "progressive" gaming media and the very vocal gamers minority, but IMO doesnt change the spirit of the game at all.
 
Likes: 1.21Gigawatts
Nov 24, 2012
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munich
1.2.1 Gigawatts I feel like your very eloquent in stating your views but just not very convincing. I enjoy your responses and it makes me think a little bit more on the issue. I also think they should have separated both scenes. I get that they are trying to create more of an impact with all of the death and dismemberment and a touching scene to surround it but it doesn't work for me. Maybe less focus on the kiss but bounce scenese from the dance and the fight scenes would have been better and have the kiss bring her out of it.
I think we're getting into nit picky territory here now. You can on the one hand argue that ND is forcing an agenda down peoples throats and that trailer showed that, and on the other hand say that if they had cut it a little differently it would've been all fine.

Like, I feel that the accusation requires much more evidence than "the trailer didn't do it for me = proof that NaughtyDog let a political agenda ruin their art".
RobinGaming, from what I understood in the very brief Twitter conversation we had, wanted to bolster the accusation through the sheer mass of individual pieces of evidence, but he then quickly drifted off into dissecting the private Twitter accounts of NaughtyDog employees and contractors as well as pulling pieces of interviews and talks of ND staff. Pretty much by the books confirmation bias stuff, because he still completely forgot to connect all causally to the trailer.
Neil Druckmann likes Anita Sarkeesian and ND staff shared Chlodine fanart on Twitter, which in connection with the recent trailers depiction of a lesbian kiss is reason for concern about NaughtyDog attempting to force an agenda down our throats even at the cost of the quality of their game.

Come one...this is absurd!

edit: the "I don't think the moderation over at Era is wrong in any way " is a bit much though.
I think I was very clear about what kind of upsides it has. For what they want to achieve with Era, this kind of strict moderation is the way to go.
I even think they could be stricter on console war drive by shit posts, the pointless negativity these bring into threads bothers many people.
GAF was actually stricter back in the day imo.

Dude that's the very definition of echo chamber, it's basically Animal Farm's Squealer describing it.
Would you call parliaments echo chambers? Or universities? Because they also ban offensive speech and value inclusivity.
I think its a way to ensure civil and constructive debate. And as I said, many industry figures seem to value it and the size of the community also speaks for itself. They can't be too wrong.

But lets stick to the topic at hand.
 
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At least they're not hailing mentally challenged Youtubers as their idols.



Chloe could easily be bisexual, that wouldn't seem weird or odd at all.
The same is true for Ellie. Although, given that NaughtyDog is aware how many of their fans identity with Ellie because of her sexuality, I doubt they'll do that.
Chloe on the other hand isn't as locked down by fans expectations. But she also isn't really the relationship type. A lesbian romance would be totally in line with her character. A lesbian relationship, or a straight one for that matter, wouldn't be as realistic, unless they want to repeat Nates "settle down" storyline with her, which I doubt.



Can't help it. Habermasian discourse ethics is something very smart if you ask me. In theory the bad arguments aren't silenced, as you say, but weeded out, simply by the fact that rational actors drop flawed positions when presented with a better argument. "Der zwanglose Zwang des besseren Arguments"
This works in an academic setting, not so much on the internet, though.
My god the arrogance. You do realise that just because you use a term from academia doesn't make you automatically right, it just makes you sound pompous. It'd make sense if it was an objective truth, but unfortunately for you, it is not. There is plenty of push back against your ideals, and the fact that you surround yourself in an echo chamber that parrots the same ideas back and forth, doesn't make you right.

In fact, you haven't even addressed the points at all, all you have done throughout the entire conversation is label everyone you disagree with a bigot, sexist and whatnot. Using big words doesn't cover the fact that your position is wrong and your capacity for defending it is so empty that you immediately resort to insults because you have nothing more than made up labels.

You have a completely wrong understanding of my position. I don't want to "banish" anything.
I just want to be able, and I am, to call sexists sexists, racists racists and homophobes homophobes, as well as accurately categorize the respective content.

If you remember some of my early posts in this thread. I believe that my side is winning. The majority of developers have got and understood the message and are actively working towards fixing the issues of lacking diversity and representation in gaming.
We already started seeing the impacts of the debate that was started some years ago.
This development also doesn't have losers. It simply means better characters, better stories and better settings for everyone.
You'll be fine with it, too.
It really is silly, just because a character is lesbian, gay, trans, unicorn, or whatever label is in vogue doesn't add anything to a character. It's meant to be provocative without anything of substance behind the provocation. How can a man liking dicks, or a woman liking vaginas make them better characters? It does not, it's a footnote at best.

As for the everyone eventually getting on board, the arrogance is on par with your blindness. Sure thing, everybody is so on board that right wing governments and ideals are on the rise in the western world, and the most awful person and despicable to the extreme left as Trump is now president of the USA. That must mean everyone wants to be a sexually ambiguous person of color, with as many minority labels they can apply to themselves, trying to figure out who is the most oppressed in the oppression olympics. Your position is ... misguided, to say the least, and we are thankfully seeing a correction happening at this very moment.

I mean, if the world was actually going in the way you wanted, Hillary would have won right? Such powerful symbolism and something that was due in your world view, a woman as president. And yet, she lost because she was not actually capable of performing the most basic of a politician's job: be popular. Your ideology is empty, outside of pretending everyone is a victim, there's nothing in it.
 
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I don't think it's hyperbolic at all, just look at what's going on in the other forum. You get banned as soon as you step out of line. And if the mods have trouble controlling the narrative, thread gets closed.
I guess I can't speak to what you're referring to here. I'm assuming the mods are SJWs then? I don't know enough to comment.

Just look at the recent Guild Wars 2 debacle
This is an interesting point because I don't know that it totally relates - she grossly overreacted and was fired for it (though that could have been the final straw). Equating this with mods trying to control a narrative is somewhat confusing to me - are you upset she was fired?

I don't know where you stand in the SJW food chain with your more nuanced approach. You have to ask them I suppose.
You made the "either you follow the line of thinking or you will be abolished without second thought" claim so I just figured you'd have a clearer sense of how the SJWs act/think.
 
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I think the confusion comes in when one believes who you have sexual relations with is a character trait.

Gay stories are, with few exceptions, very samey. The themes are not universal enough for everyone to enjoy. I've said it before, there are many stories wherein the protagonist could be assumed to be homosexual and the story and themes don't change. Some authors tell us after the fact, i.e. Dumbledore. Reading the text does not indicate they are or are not gay. So cheer up LBGTQ+ people! You are included in the human condition just like the rest of us.
 
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You made the "either you follow the line of thinking or you will be abolished without second thought" claim so I just figured you'd have a clearer sense of how the SJWs act/think.
I’m wary of calling myself a feminist, because a lot of women who also call themselves feminists, told me I couldn’t, and I shouldn’t. They told me that my kind of feminism, and my experiences of being a woman, weren’t welcome.

There's many examples of praised feminists becoming a target after saying or doing something the tribe doesn't approve of. Even if you agree on 99 issues, if there's just one thing you're not entirely on board with and you express this, you'll face some heavy opposition, and situations like those described in the article linked above can happen.
 
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I asume you are a white cis male, so yeah, Anita already hates you.
...cool

I think the confusion comes in when one believes who you have sexual relations with is a character trait.

Gay stories are, with few exceptions, very samey. The themes are not universal enough for everyone to enjoy. I've said it before, there are many stories wherein the protagonist could be assumed to be homosexual and the story and themes don't change. Some authors tell us after the fact, i.e. Dumbledore. Reading the text does not indicate they are or are not gay. So cheer up LBGTQ+ people! You are included in the human condition just like the rest of us.
Can you expand on this a bit, I don't totally understand how this relates to either ND's "agenda" or Robin's opposition to it?
 
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I'm not i see the problem with Nadine defeating Drake and Sam. Sure they are males and it was two vs one. She seems fit enough. Plus she was the leader of Shoreline. A woman being the leader of a PMC would is something you would rarely see in the real world. But uncharted is fictional so the rules don't always apply.
 
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My god the arrogance. You do realise that just because you use a term from academia doesn't make you automatically right, it just makes you sound pompous.
Its still the best way to explain my approach.

It'd make sense if it was an objective truth, but unfortunately for you, it is not. There is plenty of push back against your ideals
You mean diversity, inclusion, tolerance, equality?
I am aware that there is a lot of push back against these, but I have a conviction. So I am not thiking about this from a "what if they have a point"-perspective, but rather from a "what can I do to show them how they are wrong"-perspective.


and the fact that you surround yourself in an echo chamber that parrots the same ideas back and forth, doesn't make you right.
I am doing the exact opposite.


In fact, you haven't even addressed the points at all, all you have done throughout the entire conversation is label everyone you disagree with a bigot, sexist and whatnot.
Well, if there is outrage(strong reaction) about a lesbian kiss in a trailer(banality) without a rational, reasonable explanation for the outrage, I have to conclude that its based on different perception. And what causes perception of a lesbian kiss to lead to such strong reactions?
Latent sexism and homophobia.
We've seen similar patterns before when social progress exposed bigotry. Remember reactions to interracial relationships in media back in the day?
We are all super tolerant as long as it isn't tested. In Germany we currently see that with the refugee crisis. We thought we had moved past racist, fear based behavior, because it wasn't tested in decades. But now that people are confronted with refugees the ugly face of racism quickly shows itself again. Going so far that a party that proposed shooting people at the border as a solution to the refugee crisis, got 13% of the votes in the last election.
I don't think these people realize they are racist. They think they're action rational, they think their fears are valid and their aversion justified. And obviously confirmation bias kicks in, so information will be selected based on whether or not it is in line with people preconceived positions.

And I think with this topic, things are very similar.



As for the everyone eventually getting on board, the arrogance is on par with your blindness. Sure thing, everybody is so on board that right wing governments and ideals are on the rise in the western world, and the most awful person and despicable to the extreme left as Trump is now president of the USA. That must mean everyone wants to be a sexually ambiguous person of color, with as many minority labels they can apply to themselves, trying to figure out who is the most oppressed in the oppression olympics. Your position is ... misguided, to say the least, and we are thankfully seeing a correction happening at this very moment.

I mean, if the world was actually going in the way you wanted, Hillary would have won right? Such powerful symbolism and something that was due in your world view, a woman as president. And yet, she lost because she was not actually capable of performing the most basic of a politician's job: be popular. Your ideology is empty, outside of pretending everyone is a victim, there's nothing in it.
Trump is actually a long overdue nationalist backlash to globalization. (not saying that globalization is the problem, but the lack of preparation and adaption)
The US educational system is designed for the economic realities of the 1950s. The economy has since changed. A high school education won't suffice in todays globalized labor market. Where it was formerly possible to graduate high school, get a manufacturing job that pays enough to afford a car, a house and a family, the middleclass find itself in a completely different position today.
9 out of every 10 jobs lost in the US since the year 2000 were lost due to automation. Outsourcing is further eating away at minimal education jobs.
All this while higher education is still hard to obtain for most due to its insane price point in the US and the lack of a secondary route of education.
The result: Disillusioned middle class, massive skills gap, stagnating wages, increasingly unstable employment arrangements, rampant inequality.

And along comes a guy who acts like he understands these problems and proposes "solutions", not only that, but he also provides scapegoats to blame as well as a sense of group identity followers can feel a part of in order to get back some sense of identity and pride.

Obviously Trump has no solutions, he doesn't even understand the problem in the first place.
But at the end of the day his movement was predicted and a long way coming. It actually would've happened much earlier if it weren't for the US's static two party system that makes it very hard for ideologically different(populist) candidates to make it.

Europe is dealing with similar issues, but with the difference that Europes much stronger welfare states have lessened the impact. In most European countries this nationalist backlash wouldn't have happened at all, if it hadn't been for the greek debt crisis followed by the refugee crisis functioning as catalysts.

But this, too, will blow over and the liberal world order will still stand. Because its the best we got.

Hope you won't be sad when your anticipated anti-intellectual, regressive and ultimately authoritarian future of a world of Trumps isn't happening after all.
 
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I largely agree with the video. It is not that I'm against any of what they are doing, it is just tiring. Like I just rented the movie Annihilation. It had a great all female team of Heros and I had zero problems with. They all acted great. But I was looking for a sci-fi movie and what I got was not a sci-fi movie. It was a movie about overcoming personal demons hidden in the trappings of a sci-fi movie. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't what I was looking for. I feel the same way about LoU2. Like I just want a great post-apocalyptic zombie game, I don't care what the cast is, just give me that.
 
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Would you call parliaments echo chambers? Or universities? Because they also ban offensive speech and value inclusivity.
I think its a way to ensure civil and constructive debate. And as I said, many industry figures seem to value it and the size of the community also speaks for itself. They can't be too wrong.
What's "constructive" about not allowing dissident opinions? Also, what do you define as offensive speech? They didn't allow this thread over there, is this thread offensive speech?
 
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I’m wary of calling myself a feminist, because a lot of women who also call themselves feminists, told me I couldn’t, and I shouldn’t. They told me that my kind of feminism, and my experiences of being a woman, weren’t welcome.

There's many examples of praised feminists becoming a target after saying or doing something the tribe doesn't approve of. Even if you agree on 99 issues, if there's just one thing you're not entirely on board with and you express this, you'll face some heavy opposition, and situations like those described in the article linked above can happen.
Isn't this in line with my point though? That feminism or any other issue/movement isn't totally uniform - particularly third/fourth-wave? A percentage of feminists (I don't think the "tribe" in your point is the majority) being shitty doesn't mean that they all are. I consider myself a feminist (as in the literal definition, not whatever loaded version someone thinks of in this thread) and disagree with a lot of third/fourth-wave feminists. As do other third/fourth-wave feminists. But I do think it's important that we be able to have these discussions and it's important to the growth of video games as a medium.
 
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I largely agree with the video. It is not that I'm against any of what they are doing, it is just tiring. Like I just rented the movie Annihilation. It had a great all female team of Heros and I had zero problems with. They all acted great. But I was looking for a sci-fi movie and what I got was not a sci-fi movie. It was a movie about overcoming personal demons hidden in the trappings of a sci-fi movie. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't what I was looking for. I feel the same way about LoU2. Like I just want a great post-apocalyptic zombie game, I don't care what the cast is, just give me that.
I promise you that Last of Us 2 will be almost entirely murdering and trying to stay alive. It's not like Uncharted 4 became mostly about Elena and Drake at home making dinner.
 
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I can't see the issue with the kiss, as it's clear their relationship is going to play into the narrative heavily. I worry more that Joel is going to get overlooked, as that's what made the first game interesting. Their dynamic kept me going through the otherwise serviceable game play.
 
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What's "constructive" about not allowing dissident opinions? Also, what do you define as offensive speech? They didn't allow this thread over there, is this thread offensive speech?
Not all opinions are equally valid.
Gamergate for example is a completely and utterly worthless movement from an intellectual standpoint. Its add nothing and just creates trouble and hurts people.

And yes, indicating that prime time, center stage lesbian romance is just an "agenda" thats "forced down peoples throats" and "tokenism" is offensive to people, especially to people who for the first time now have a protagonist in a huge mainstream AAA game to really identify with, who really represents them.
Just watch some of the trailer reactions on Youtube to get a grasp of how much this means to many people.
Having people coming along shitting on that with their crude nonsense about SJW agendas and concern about artistic purity or whatever... thats disrespectful, its not a discussion worth having.
This may sound hypocritical, since I am just having this discussion, but I am not here because I want an open ended debate or because I think someone could change my mind. I am here because I think that no one properly argued why RobinGaming doesn't have a point, so I wanted to give that input. I am also here because I wanted to see some of the mental gymnastics people perform in order to somehow justify being outraged about a game developer making use of their artistic freedom.
In the Youtube comment section that wouldn't have worked, because people don't even feel the need to present even an argument that resembles some form of logical coherence.
But even here on GAF, what I saw mostly was some form of entitlement("How dare they push the story in a direction that might not align with MY interests on first sight? Damn SJW agenda!") or people trying to connect all kinds of unrelated things, like Chloe from UC4, ND staff tweets, Neil Druckmanns personal opinions, into some kind of conspiracy theory that supposedly shows that NaughtyDog is pushing an agenda and sacrifices quality for it. Overall: Not impressed.
 
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But see, I don't have a problem with insults, its not like I have been polite towards people here so far. I specifically logged onto GAF after like at least a year because I wanted to discuss this topic and I knew that I wouldn't find anyone with opposing views on ResetEra.
The fact that you knew that should tell you something about that forum...

After I tried on Youtube and Twitter to figure out what peoples actual problem was without success, I tried here. Also without success. All I found out is that there seems to be significant overlap between the anti-feminist, Gamergate and "I'm concerned about agenda in muh gamz" crowds.
Considering that those same people are referring to a supposed feminist/"progressive" agenda, it's hardly a ground breaking revelation that an "overlap" exists.

I get why GAF formerly and ERA wants to keep these people out. For the most part they're toxic for any kind of proper debate.
But I think its still important to regularly check up if the views have evolved in any way. And now, it appears, GAF is a good place to do that.
A common theme of (now) ERA is that dissent, the vary basis for any debate, is labelled as "toxic".
You know what is truly toxic? "Debate" without any kind of disagreement. Without confrotation between opposing views, we cannot progress.
Glad to read that unlike other members of ERA, you are starting to appreciate free speech, even if you are not fully aware of that yet. There's hope for you.
 
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Yeah... a single reply on a tweet has less likes than the original tweet. This is true.
Well one was a TIME top 100 person of the year and the other wasn't. One has been relentlessly promoted by every outlet under the sun and the other hasn't.

Let's not pretend like he doesn't have a point in that regard. Anita's brand of feminism is far and away more popular than Sara's.

Sara's view is more popularly shared among just average not sexist people.

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Actually is Sara even a feminist? She mentions Humanism in her twitter bio. Seems as if she identifies as a humanist. I really don't know, this is my first time being made aware of her.
 
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Can you expand on this a bit, I don't totally understand how this relates to either ND's "agenda" or Robin's opposition to it?
I don't know where the line is drawn between "I don't care for gay literature" and "I am a bigot". People in this thread were asking for honesty in their opposition to the possible themes in the new game, I am giving some with each post I contribute.

Here's another example from my own personal experience. There is a movie called "Love and Death on Long Island". It stars John Hurt as an elderly man who becomes obsessed with a young actor played by Jason Priestly. It is moving because the themes are universal. Taking risks, unrequited love, obsession. I saw the movie and bought it. The subject matter moved me. I also kept the video in a drawer because I didn't want to have to explain it to any of my friends.

I believe that videogames, at best, are commercial art. Especially AAA games. If ND should have an agenda, it should be to appeal to the widest demographic possible, in my opinion. I have heard on various podcasts and seen written in articles that because I don't like gay literature, my business is not wanted. More and more I am seeing this attitude by people who produce things that I enjoy. This message board used to have this attitude, so I rarely posted.

I am not a hateful man. I would sit down and talk with anybody on this forum in person. In fact, here's an open invitation for anybody here to come to my house and hang out. I don't care who you are. I also believe most people here would do the same. I don't know what anyone here looks like. All I see are words written on a screen. Your character comes through in the words you write.

I guess I don't like being told I'm a bad person or I'm hate filled and deserve bad things because I value something different. Gay people don't like it either, from what they say. Liberal people don't like it either. You don't like it either.
 
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Naughty Dog is toying at least with the idea of making 2 characters from uncharted gay. Chloe is an established character. Shown to have romances with men.

Not an issue with gay characters at all. But changing a characters sexuality or race or gender for nothing is odd.

If they suddenly made Ellie not gay, that would be odd too.
Did they just tease it with one post on twitter? That's pretty normal in today culture that ships anything lol. It's even "worse" with boy/girl pairing, people automatically assume they are going to be a couple if they look eyes for 2 seconds.
 
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Actually is Sara even a feminist? She mentions Humanism in her twitter bio. Seems as if she identifies as a humanist. I really don't know, this is my first time being made aware of her.
In her recent timeline she obviously has a huge hate on for Jordan Peterson, adores Justin Trudeau and talks about "fedoras" and "incels".

I could research more, but just with that I'm pretty sure she is a feminist.