The Naughty Dog Agenda - RobinGaming

Feb 13, 2018
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ND didn't get where it is, doing what it is doing at the moment, as you rightfully noted.
Fair point. Personally I still feel like Drake having a daughter or Ellie being outwardly gay aren't going to push enough people away to hurt Naughty Dog (I would bet Last of Us Part II will sell incredibly well). It will be interesting to see if they push it even further in their next game (which they should be free to do - but I honestly don't see them doing). That's when I think it might actually start to hurt them. Not disagreeing with you, just think it's interesting to think about where they might go next.

Hell yes. The only issue I see with the concept is that since the target audience, he's trying to target, is represented by:
None of them cares about gaming, all of them hate majority of existing gamers, so, where are we heading with it, please? Is it not troubling?
Is he actually targeting them though? Or is he targeting people like me, who want to see good story telling with characters who are occasionally different than "straight white guy #5948" and women who pass Bechdel test (to be clear though, I still play plenty of games containing "straight white guy #XXXX" and imported DOA Xtreme 3). Maybe he appreciates what Anita is doing for example and thus tries to avoid some of the typical gendered tropes in his games, but actually targeting those three examples of yours when making a game would make for a terrible game. Naughty Dog doesn't make terrible games. And I think being concerned that they're catering to the most extreme is a bit premature.

To be perfectly honest I think he just wants to make worlds populated by strong men and women of different types. Sounds good to me. I'm bummed we never got an Elena and Jeff game.
 
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You know, it is funny you mention it, because (and I could be REALLY wrong about it, though) I vaguely remember a thread was made in this site at the start of 17' that gave a clear percentage of what Female gamers were more than likely to play than their Male counterparts.

And don't quote me on it, but being showcased at early 17' in this site, had a negative effect on both the title and the discussion surrounding this topic.

Anyhow, the research in question is this one

https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/
Thanks for linking that article. Looks like FPS, "tactical shooter" (whatever that means), Racing, Strategy, and Sports are all below 10% female participation.

At least two of those are inherently gender-neutral. Arguably all of them can be, but let's assume that FPSs and "tactical shooters" are just way too masculine. Okay, I won't deny that plenty of Racing games take extra steps to appeal to males, but at what point do we alter the core content of a genre to appeal to women? Would women play more racing games if the cars were Malibus, VW Bugs, minivans, and other vehicles predominantly owned by females in the real world? Doubtful. Would women play more strategy games if... I can't even come up with a "women focused" concept for a strategy game, to be honest.

Anyway, thanks again for linking the study.
 
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All I'm saying is that is's worth taking calculate risks. They wont always pan out but they might. There will be many many people who pick up Uncharted 4 or LoU2 and go back and play the original games if they haven't already done so. Yes, that argument can blow up in my face if they fail to bring in the customers to replace the ones theyre losing. I'll agree with that wholeheartedly.

You say the militant left is the one demanding these changes but all I see here is 12 pages of dudes wanting to keep the gaming status quo because they can't handle perspectives that don't align with their own. I don't ask for these changes, but I don't care that they're in there. I just understand that companies are attempting to appeal to a broader demographic.
First of all I'd like to point out that there are many women who also do not like the PC, Feminist, SJW agenda. What you've shown here is how entrenched you are in the propaganda we see foisted upon us by the media. Just do a little search on Youtube for feminists who are appalled at what's going on.

Secondly, it's not simply something people 'can't handle'. Again, this is reductive reasoning, ignoring the nuance of the discussion, it's present and long term implications. It's NOT about whether a female or a lesbian is 'represented', it's about representation being the ONLY reason for their existence. A character should exist in the narrative organically and realistically, not be birthed for some arbitrary, agenda driven 'quota'. The same goes for choosing what scenes are in the game/film/book.

Many SJWs complained that Dunkirk was sexist because it didn't feature females, when in fact, the director simply wanted to make the most realistic version of events he could. The upcoming version of 'Lord of the Flies' is to feature an all female cast. Hand on heart, do you think that's 'organic' and springing naturally from the narrative? The narrative exists already and it's yet another example of how things have gotten out of hand. These extremists are ruining everything they touch.

The reader, viewer or player puts his/her trust in the writer. We feel for the characters and react to their problems because we 'believe' in them. They are real to us, either living in our eyes or in our thoughts. We embrace them willingly because we trust the writer and his vision. Break that trust, give the reader even the slightest indication that a second hand is manipulating the pen, and the reader, viewer or player won't relate to the characters as they should.

As I said before, if these writers/devs want to express their views on femininity or lesbianism, then they should build a new IP around it. If it's good, I'd play it. TLOU is about a Father's road to redemption. Yes, Ellie is gay, as was Bill, but they were realistic within the narrative, their reveals beautifully understated. Robin and others are seeing now that the understatement is being replaced with something more intrusive and 'possibly' politically motivated.

A gay man, a lesbian, a feminist and black man walk into a bar. The transgender barman looks at them and says 'it's almost as if this joke was written by a SJW'.
 
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Thanks for linking that article. Looks like FPS, "tactical shooter" (whatever that means), Racing, Strategy, and Sports are all below 10% female participation.

At least two of those are inherently gender-neutral. Arguably all of them can be, but let's assume that FPSs and "tactical shooters" are just way too masculine. Okay, I won't deny that plenty of Racing games take extra steps to appeal to males, but at what point do we alter the core content of a genre to appeal to women? Would women play more racing games if the cars were Malibus, VW Bugs, minivans, and other vehicles predominantly owned by females in the real world? Doubtful. Would women play more strategy games if... I can't even come up with a "women focused" concept for a strategy game, to be honest.

Anyway, thanks again for linking the study.
Nothing to it, it is nice to see that article's like these can now be openly discussed in this forum, without the messenger being dog-piled or worse, doxxed.

I had lurked this site from 13' onwards, I came here because of the fact that you can now log in using a GMail account. I can only hope I can help steer this place in a right path and keep it there.

Also, about the article, it is really telling that Female gamers play more JRPGs that WRPGs. I mean, they could play only Pokemon and sprite-based FF clones in their mobiles, but JRPGs in general have a LOT more fanservice catered to the heterosexual male crowd than their WRPG counter-parts, so, if I see the numbers correctly (which is a big probability that I do not) then female gamers have 0 problem with the fanservice that is caterd to their male counter-parts.

But that is another thread for separate discussion, sorry for hijacking this one and if it is indeed the case, a mod can delete this post, or edit it to another thread of its own.

Edit: And I wonder where female gamers fall to when it comes to fighting games.
 
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Jul 8, 2018
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User removed from thread. Lacks maturity to discuss properly.
I love how the alt right celebrates gun ownership as a feminist ideal. They're like "there should be mass shootings, bc then women can also kill their rapist!" (because vigilanteism is ok, and rule of law means nothing? but whatever). But as soon as a developer elects to have a female protagonist, they're like "this iz so unrealistic!! girls can't kill men, cuz men are big and strong!!!" There is no ideological consistency on the right. just a moving target designed to oppress anyone who deviates from their archaic view of the human condition. When they say something is "forced," they mean they are being forced to grapple with individuals who fall outside of their constipated, anachronistic world view.
 
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Also, about the article, it is really telling that Female gamers play more JRPGs that WRPGs. I mean, they could play only Pokemon and sprite-based FF clones in their mobiles, but JRPGs in general have a LOT more fanservice catered to the heterosexual male crowd than their WRPG counter-parts, so, if I see the numbers correctly (which is a big probability that I do not) then female gamers have 0 problem with the fanservice that is caterd to their male counter-parts.
My thinking is: why wouldn't that be the case? Women are just as imaginative as men. Women enjoy fantasizing just as much as men (perhaps moreso? I believe female brains are more responsive to mental visualization than mens' are). Women enjoy projecting themselves onto the world around them just as much as men.

With that being the case, why wouldn't some women enjoy playing a sexy badass female JRPG character?

And like I mentioned earlier, women tend to enjoy personal interaction, not just in games but in all types of entertainment. JRPGs are packed with sappy, feel-good interaction between the characters, often putting a teenager or child in the role of hero who saves the world. WRPGs are almost entirely centered around adult characters.

Edit: And I wonder where female gamers fall to when it comes to fighting games.
Funny you should bring that up because this is a pretty big blind-spot in the West. We don't have many female gamers who play fighting games, but in Asia there are a lot of women who play fighting games, even on a professional level. Street Fighter and Tekken in particular have a ton of professional women who kick ass. And you know what? They often pick the cutest, sexiest, bustiest characters in the game.
 
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And like I mentioned earlier, women tend to enjoy personal interaction, not just in games but in all types of entertainment. JRPGs are packed with sappy, feel-good interaction between the characters, often putting a teenager or child in the role of hero who saves the world. WRPGs are almost entirely centered around adult characters.
That is indeed true, women enjoy attention and interaction, something that will engage them, and love a happy, non-oppressive environment, and most JRPGs are like those, which is really natural; they are targeted at children and/or teenagers at most, Souls series being the notable exception, whilst WRPGs cater to the young adult to adult demographic (18-30). The split can be seen as this.
 
Apr 18, 2018
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I love how the alt right celebrates gun ownership as a feminist ideal. They're like "there should be mass shootings, bc then women can also kill their rapist!" (because vigilanteism is ok, and rule of law means nothing? but whatever). But as soon as a developer elects to have a female protagonist, they're like "this iz so unrealistic!! girls can't kill men, cuz men are big and strong!!!" There is no ideological consistency on the right. just a moving target designed to oppress anyone who deviates from their archaic view of the human condition. When they say something is "forced," they mean they are being forced to grapple with individuals who fall outside of their constipated, anachronistic world view.
 
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That is indeed true, women enjoy attention and interaction, something that will engage them, and love a happy, non-oppressive environment, and most JRPGs are like those, which is really natural; they are targeted at children and/or teenagers at most, Souls series being the notable exception, whilst WRPGs cater to the young adult to adult demographic (18-30). The split can be seen as this.
Souls aren't even on the same level. Nearly all characters are very assexual (except gwynevere...), they lack both sexual identity and attributes to be considered attractive. It would kill the game mood maybe.
Edit: nevermind, you are talking about something else, duh for me.
 
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Sethbacca

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Someone give me a condensed TL:DR please. I'd like to know what the main discussion is here but I really can't read 13 pages and the video looks like a typical 'keep your politics out of my games.'
TLDR : You pretty much nailed it. The right politics leaning people feel like they're being forced to suck in the sjw lgbtq agenda and the rest of us are basically saying don't buy it or make your own. If you disagree you're an entrenched commie socialist. Repeat ad nauseum for 13 pages.
 
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You say the militant left is the one demanding these changes but all I see here is 12 pages of dudes wanting to keep the gaming status quo because they can't handle perspectives that don't align with their own.
Twelve whole frickin' pages of nerds talking about stuff they don't like in video games?!
Someone, call antifa before these hardcore extremists pick up their torches and pitchforks!

No, let's be real, friend. There's one side pushing a narrative with articles like this or this, attempting to censor games because they don't align with their own views (and in the end succeeding at it, too), but of course it's the one guy making a Youtube video and the few people talking about it on a gaming forum who're the real issue.
 
Jun 14, 2013
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TLDR : You pretty much nailed it. The right politics leaning people feel like they're being forced to suck in the sjw lgbtq agenda and the rest of us are basically saying don't buy it or make your own. If you disagree you're an entrenched commie socialist. Repeat ad nauseum for 13 pages.
I don't know if it's right-leaning or not, but yeah, it comes across as a bunch of angry children.
 
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Twelve whole frickin' pages of nerds talking about stuff they don't like in video games?!
Someone, call antifa before these hardcore extremists pick up their torches and pitchforks!

No, let's be real, friend. There's one side pushing a narrative with articles like this or this, attempting to censor games because they don't align with their own views (and in the end succeeding at it, too), but of course it's the one guy making a Youtube video and the few people talking about it on a gaming forum who're the real issue.
Jesus Christ, what are those articles!? Regardless of anyone's thoughts over super seducer, the idea that grown men are going to play the game and instantly have that this is how to treat women instilled in their brains is some absolute gold medal mental gymnastics, and that this is going to normalize violence against women? What are these guys smoking?
 
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Sethbacca

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Jun 20, 2013
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No, let's be real, friend. There's one side pushing a narrative with articles like this or this, attempting to censor games because they don't align with their own views (and in the end succeeding at it, too), but of course it's the one guy making a Youtube video and the few people talking about it on a gaming forum who're the real issue.
On the articles you listed, we can agree, they're annoying. However, we have literally ALWAYS dealt with this. Conservatives, christian groups, mommy groups, politicians, etc, have been telling us for decades that video games are literally satanic and responsible for everything from school shootings to *SOCIAL PROBLEM X*. It's been happening since at least Mortal Kombat came out in the arcades and Liebermann came out looking to have it censored. There are always people who will be against something that you enjoy and speak out against it.

Frankly, I don't know how old you are or anything, but I remember the fuckery and political bullshit that lead to the video game rating system being implemented. You're complaining about a problem that has existed for a while now regardless of your political affiliation or social views.
 
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On the articles you listed, we can agree, they're annoying. However, we have literally ALWAYS dealt with this. Conservatives, christian groups, mommy groups, politicians, etc, have been telling us for decades that video games are literally satanic and responsible for everything from school shootings to *SOCIAL PROBLEM X*. It's been happening since at least Mortal Kombat came out in the arcades and Liebermann came out looking to have it censored. There are always people who will be against something that you enjoy and speak out against it.

Frankly, I don't know how old you are or anything, but I remember the fuckery and political bullshit that lead to the video game rating system being implemented. You're complaining about a problem that has existed for a while now regardless of your political affiliation or social views.
Only difference being those people had no clue what they're talking about. This kind of narrative is coming from gaming journalists. You'd think they're somewhat more aware of what's going on and what they're talking about. Games have grown. This isn't the 90's anymore.

Let's just be truthful here. One group is allowed to criticize games when they don't like its content (I could list endless examples here... Witcher 3 and Kingdom Come Deliverance's lack of black representation come to mind) but when others do it, for example in this thread by stating they're not interested in games that explore homosexuality or gay relationships, attempts are immediately made to shut them up because "the game was never made for you in the first place" (exactly as Robin said in his video) and for good measure they're labeled bigots or right-wing.
 
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TLDR : You pretty much nailed it. The right politics leaning people feel like they're being forced to suck in the sjw lgbtq agenda and the rest of us are basically saying don't buy it or make your own. If you disagree you're an entrenched commie socialist. Repeat ad nauseum for 13 pages.
Ah right, right. So what happens if you are right leaning, such as myself, and you aren't against LGBTQ themes, politics or else wise?

I mean, I hate to be rude to my American members but this alt-right vs hard left thing is just boring now. From a British perspective, this is why we have multiple parties that are more distinguished to really encompass a broader view and something less binary as left or right. You'd think because I consider myself as right leaning that I'd hate LGBTQ content but I really don't. I'm much closer to what a nationalist is supposed to be and not what it has been misconstrued to be in the modern sense of the word.

I am very much to the right. Maybe on certain subjects, but when it comes to LGBTQ, I really don't have an issue. My Uncle is gay and he's one of the loveliest people you could ever meet. We've known that Ellie is a lesbian since the first game, so this is nothing new. I actually think that it's really brave in a sense. I think there's very few companies who would be so bold as to do something like this. On the flip side of the coin, some people are probably raging that we're not being inclusive enough. You just can't win in today's social climate.
 
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The right politics leaning people feel like they're being forced to suck in the sjw lgbtq agenda and the rest of us are basically saying don't buy it
Left leaning European here.
Some people with agenda who don't give a flying fuck about gaming come into power at one's beloved studio and are poised to do things to established franchise, instead of creating something new. Why is that? Why existing "gamebro" games? Why not new IP?

As for "fuck you, just don't buy it", that worked pretty well for star wars, didn't it?


With that being the case, why wouldn't some women enjoy playing a sexy badass female JRPG character?
Given how search results for 'cosplaying' looks like, isn't the answer rather obvious?

The problem here is that you are arguing against Dworkin and Co, who are:

1) presented as the only Feminist take on sexuality (no, it's not)
2) presented as the only feminists out there (no, they are not)
3) and last, but not least, are used to winning disputes by harassing/labeling/mobbing/otherwise harassing opponents, not by having strong arguments, hence you can't have civilized discussion on the subject with them
 
Jan 21, 2018
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Republic of Catalonia
Did a quick ctrl+f on the youtube comments:
"It's very troubling, and it's infesting every element of my hobbies"
"Ohh PLEASE do not let Rockstar Games become affected with an agenda and ruin GTA6."

Here's a GameFAQs thread: Can we all agree feminists and SJW are ruining gaming and gaming journalism?
Here's a r/Gaming thread: SJW culture is RUINING GAMING
Here's a fun subreddit r/SJWHATE (54K subs by the way): Social Justice Warriors have turned the video gaming industry into a toxic industry

Here's some even stronger language: "So I don't know how many individuals on this subreddit are video Gamers but as we know sjw's have managed to poison the world of video gaming with there cancerous rhetoric."
- Liberals are now whining about "toxic meritocracy" of 'competitive' video games

Took me literally 10 minutes to find these.
You are still confusing women with feminism.

Uhh... what is a "women oriented game"? Barbie Horse Adventures for the GBA?
For example, yes.
 
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Ah right, right. So what happens if you are right leaning, such as myself, and you aren't against LGBTQ themes, politics or else wise?

I mean, I hate to be rude to my American members but this alt-right vs hard left thing is just boring now. From a British perspective, this is why we have multiple parties that are more distinguished to really encompass a broader view and something less binary as left or right. You'd think because I consider myself as right leaning that I'd hate LGBTQ content but I really don't. I'm much closer to what a nationalist is supposed to be and not what it has been misconstrued to be in the modern sense of the word.

I am very much to the right. Maybe on certain subjects, but when it comes to LGBTQ, I really don't have an issue. My Uncle is gay and he's one of the loveliest people you could ever meet. We've known that Ellie is a lesbian since the first game, so this is nothing new. I actually think that it's really brave in a sense. I think there's very few companies who would be so bold as to do something like this. On the flip side of the coin, some people are probably raging that we're not being inclusive enough. You just can't win in today's social climate.
The notion that being right wing means that you automatically hate LGBTQ is so stupid. The notion that critizing a certain political agenda artificially injected in videogames by certain people means that you hate gays, lesbians, black people, women or whatever, is the same stupid "you are with me or against me" mentality.
 
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That is the mainpoint. Stop comparing trying to argue that anti feminism = anti Women. In America not even 18% consider themselves a feminist in the UK it is less than 7% even though the vast majority is for equal rights of men and women.
 
Oct 12, 2012
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Someone give me a condensed TL:DR please. I'd like to know what the main discussion is here but I really can't read 13 pages and the video looks like a typical 'keep your politics out of my games.'
Do we want diversity in games: YES
Do we want forced diversity in games: NO

Homophobia/sexist labelling dwingling
Realisation of the more complex issue increasing

Still the occasional battle at the outer reaches of reality but less so than one would think.
 
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Jesus Christ, what are those articles!? Regardless of anyone's thoughts over super seducer, the idea that grown men are going to play the game and instantly have that this is how to treat women instilled in their brains is some absolute gold medal mental gymnastics, and that this is going to normalize violence against women? What are these guys smoking?
And this is the problem. We basically have a wave of political agenda that wants to control and censorship the videogame industry for self servicing purposes.
 
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Do we want diversity in games: YES
Do we want forced diversity in games: NO

Homophobia/sexist labelling dwingling
Realisation of the more complex issue increasing

Still the occasional battle at the outer reaches of reality but less so than one would think.
Again doing diversity right? Indy games. Doing diversity wrong Battlefield 5
 
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The only time it was ever a "boys club" was during the late 80s and the 90s and I'd argue that was moreso due to perception (advertising) than reality. Ms. Pac-Man wasn't made to appeal to boys, after all. Arcades and home consoles were just as much for girls and girls regularly played them. Game Boy was a very popular girl's system. Gaming was first popularized in bars, bowling alleys, clubs, and other such placesThe PC market was definitely a boy's club, though, until you began seeing stuff like The Sims, Roller Coaster Tycoon, and so forth showing up at the turn of the millenium.

There's also the fact that across the spectrum, men tend to be more interested in mechanical devices and women tend to be interested in personal interaction. And this is manifested in reality. For example, a hugely disproportionate number of women play MMOs compared to most other gaming genres. This has been true since the days of Everquest if not before.

I'm curious if these are the sort of games most women enjoy playing anyway. I'd enjoy seeing proof that AAA third-person shooter with a female lead will sell markedly better to women. What if women don't enjoy that genre of game? Seems like devs would rather make the same games they were gonna make anyway but are cramming a female into the game because it'll sell better (??). How shallow is that?

If the goal is to appeal to women, then we should first do the stuff that works and then worry about representation. You know what works? Good gameplay. Girl gamers and boy gamers are identical in this respect: they want the game to be enjoyable. I cannot comprehend how the industry can simultaneously claim

"Barbie games and pretty princess games aren't the sort of games that girls want even though they continue to buy them..."

and then say

"...so let's cram women into genres that women have not historically been attracted to 'cause that's what they want".

I really don't care about the representation thing. I don't see a high moral impetus to include more women in a few narrow genres of videogames on the basis that it is the right thing to do, nor do I see the business reason for doing so because women have already been included in videogames pretty much from the start. Fact is, most men and women don't care about gender or racial representation in games. They don't. Videogame sales are proof of that. Do they enjoy the option? Sure. However, most of this is being viewed through the lens of AAA story-driven gaming which is a small portion of the overall gaming world.

I'd offer the following experiment: EA and 2k Sports should both release a WNBA game alongside their yearly NBA game. Then we can finally see if adding women or making women the focus will create higher sales to women in genres that are traditionally enjoyed mostly by men.

I also don't care about the "feminism is taking over our industry!!" concern. If you're the sort of person who is truly enraptured and satisfied with videogame stories, I am sorry to offend but you should get out more. Videogame stories are like longer, worse-acted movies. If you don't want to play as a woman, don't. If your life is so pathetic that you are stuck in this fake moral quandary between playing a cool-looking videogame but also having to play as a woman, then your grasp on reality is already too weak to have a reasonable discussion.

Why are you under the impression that women are the lead in more games "JUST" to appeal to women? It appeals to me too and I'm a guy. I WANT to play as a woman in a game where the story is slightly different because she's a woman. Where the gameplay is slightly different because she's a woman. That's appealling to men too.
 
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And this is the problem. We basically have a wave of political agenda that wants to control and censorship the videogame industry for self servicing purposes.
Isn't that you guys that want to censor games? I see people that agree with you that don't like the lead in Battlefield 5, the kiss in the TLOU2 E3 video, CJ in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas, etc.

They all just hire one another. Under the umbrella of diversity, they hand pick the most narrow minded and specific of individuals. The Guild Wars 2 lady, Jessica Price, will end up at Naughty Dog, or another studio that's short of a few angry weirdos.

It's the same in Academia. Hopefully you haven't had the misfortune of attempting a PHD. I dropped out of mine (Philosophy) after six months, when it became very clear that the department was run by crazy people.
Some people literally hate people that don't look like them geez. Everyone hired can't be a white straight male, dude.
 
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Isn't that you guys that want to censor games? I see people that agree with you that don't like the lead in Battlefield 5, the kiss in the TLOU2 E3 video, CJ in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas, etc.
I don't like thing ≠ I want to censor thing

I don't like thing because it's bigoted and reinforces toxic behavior so it should be minimized and deplatformed = I want to censor thing

It's really not that difficult.
 
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Why are you under the impression that women are the lead in more games "JUST" to appeal to women? It appeals to me too and I'm a guy. I WANT to play as a woman in a game where the story is slightly different because she's a woman. Where the gameplay is slightly different because she's a woman. That's appealling to men too.
I am not under that impression.

But when the stated goal of a developer and the industry at large for having a female lead is to be "more inclusive" and to "appeal to women", then it is worthwhile to question if that's what women even want.

I don't care too much about the gender of the main character nowadays since I am playing fewer and fewer story-driven games (which is really the only place where it is being pushed), so it's not an issue I'm up in arms about.
 
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Why are you under the impression that women are the lead in more games "JUST" to appeal to women? It appeals to me too and I'm a guy. I WANT to play as a woman in a game where the story is slightly different because she's a woman. Where the gameplay is slightly different because she's a woman. That's appealling to men too.
I agree with this. I don't know why but for some reason, given the choice, I tend to play as a female. My favourite franchise WAS Tombraider and it wasn't anything to do with some adolescent crush on a polygonal woman. The reason I say 'WAS' is because I do not like the way she's turned into a supermodel, more at home on a catwalk than traversing a tomb. Throw in the obsession with Rambo-ising her and it's a no no for me. She was a quintessential, upper class women with a delightfully plum accent, and that's why I liked her. There was a calmness and stillness about her character that made me feel at home. Couple that with the original menu music ... God I'm tearing up at my loss ...
 

Sethbacca

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As for "fuck you, just don't buy it", that worked pretty well for star wars, didn't it?
They're changing their release schedule, marketing approach, and approach to the movies as a result of people voting with their wallets on skipping Solo. All you've done here is reinforce that the fuck you just don't buy it approach actually works when done en masse.

No guarantee you'll like what they do next but it seems like they know now that there's a segment of the Star Wars fandom that won't simply buy something because it's Star Wars.
 
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I am not under that impression.

But when the stated goal of a developer and the industry at large for having a female lead is to be "more inclusive" and to "appeal to women", then it is worthwhile to question if that's what women even want.

I don't care too much about the gender of the main character nowadays since I am playing fewer and fewer story-driven games (which is really the only place where it is being pushed), so it's not an issue I'm up in arms about.
Are you sure those are the only 2 reasons for more women to be leads in games? Think about these reasons....

1. We should make the lead a woman so that we can write a story from a woman's perspective.
2. We should make the lead a woman so that we can have fun designing a character that different from what we've always done. Our artists are more excited now.
3. We should make the lead a woman so that we can make our game stand out compared to all the other 55 single player games.
4. We should make the lead a woman because we are bored of making the same type of games over and over.
5. We should make the lead a woman because it's about time a woman is the lead of a FPS game.
6. We should make the lead a woman so that we can appeal to more people.
7. We should make the lead a woman because our animators have could up with interesting gameplay mechanics that make sense since she's smaller and more agile than our normal male leads.
8. We should make the lead a woman because the voice actor that we hired is AMAZING and can carry this story better.
9. We should make the lead a woman in our last game she was the best supporting character and the lead last game was killed off, so it makes since that she's now the new lead.
10. We should make the lead a woman because we've never done it before and it's cool (i.e. GTA 6 for example maybe......)

Stop limiting your thoughts on why companies in the video game industry do what they do. Be more open to things that are just cool and fun.
 
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I WANT to play as a woman in a game where the story is slightly different because she's a woman.
Just curious, is story slightly different in the latest (woman led) Uncharted? (haven't played it myself)
Playing Horizon I keep chuckling at how a number of female warriors behave and talk. ("they will PAY FOR IT arr arr harrrr... we chase them RIGHT HERE AND NOW ARRR, i'M SO ANGRY")

They're changing their release schedule, marketing approach, and approach to the movies as a result of people voting with their wallets on skipping Solo. All you've done here is reinforce that the fuck you just don't buy it approach actually works when done en masse.
It shows if you push it way to far, it might backfire.
Yet even in that case it is "dudebros" foult, somehow.

But how does it mean one shouldn't be worried about his/her beloved studios following SW path? How is that not "troublesome"?
So SW has failed, someone has learned something PERHAPS, but what did fans win? Somebody has ruined franchise, just didn't manage to humiliate its user base.
 
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Are you sure those are the only 2 reasons for more women to be leads in games? Think about these reasons....

1. We should make the lead a woman so that we can write a story from a woman's perspective.
2. We should make the lead a woman so that we can have fun designing a character that different from what we've always done. Our artists are more excited now.
3. We should make the lead a woman so that we can make our game stand out compared to all the other 55 single player games.
4. We should make the lead a woman because we are bored of making the same type of games over and over.
5. We should make the lead a woman because it's about time a woman is the lead of a FPS game.
6. We should make the lead a woman so that we can appeal to more people.
7. We should make the lead a woman because our animators have could up with interesting gameplay mechanics that make sense since she's smaller and more agile than our normal male leads.
8. We should make the lead a woman because the voice actor that we hired is AMAZING and can carry this story better.
9. We should make the lead a woman in our last game she was the best supporting character and the lead last game was killed off, so it makes since that she's now the new lead.
10. We should make the lead a woman because we've never done it before and it's cool (i.e. GTA 6 for example maybe......)

Stop limiting your thoughts on why companies in the video game industry do what they do. Be more open to things that are just cool and fun.
Thanks for writing out the list, but you are preaching to the choir. I have no problem with more women characters in games and I find all of those reasons to be fine...

..except that #5 and #6 are unproven ideological blah-blah. I mean, a company can do whatever they want, but what I've pointed out is that if they're really so concerned about appealing to women, it would suit them to develop games in genres that appeal to women.

And in case my point wasn't clear enough: I have no qualms with companies attempting to appeal to women by injecting a women into an FPS or whatever. I'm simply questioning their logic since that method of "appealing to women" is altogether shallow and ineffective (by all indications).
 
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Thanks for writing out the list, but you are preaching to the choir. I have no problem with more women characters in games and I find all of those reasons to be fine...

..except that #5 and #6 are unproven ideological blah-blah. I mean, a company can do whatever they want, but what I've pointed out is that if they're really so concerned about appealing to women, it would suit them to develop games in genres that appeal to women.

And in case my point wasn't clear enough: I have no qualms with companies attempting to appeal to women by injecting a women into an FPS or whatever. I'm simply questioning their logic since that method of "appealing to women" is altogether shallow and ineffective (by all indications).
My main point was directed at you saying their appeal to women is shallow and ineffective. I'm telling you that you are artificially limiting developer's reasons for making women leads in games. Appealing to women is one of a huge list of reasons. And who's to say that over time more women in 2025 won't be into FPS games? There's no way for us to say they won't be.

And more doesn't mean all women will be into FPS games. Just more of them. Either way dudes will keep buying games with women as the leads. Horizon, Tomb Raider, and soon Battlefield 5 and TLOU 2 will prove this to be true so it's not like devs are taking a huge risk here.
 
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I agree with this. I don't know why but for some reason, given the choice, I tend to play as a female. My favourite franchise WAS Tombraider and it wasn't anything to do with some adolescent crush on a polygonal woman. The reason I say 'WAS' is because I do not like the way she's turned into a supermodel, more at home on a catwalk than traversing a tomb. Throw in the obsession with Rambo-ising her and it's a no no for me. She was a quintessential, upper class women with a delightfully plum accent, and that's why I liked her. There was a calmness and stillness about her character that made me feel at home. Couple that with the original menu music ... God I'm tearing up at my loss ...
I almost always play as a female when there's a choice. I'm a man 100% of my real life, so sure, playing as female game characters sometimes does appeal to me. The key is as others have said... not wanting transparent agendas forced into games strictly for the sake of said agenda does not equal not wanting female leads in games, or other types of diversity at all. This isn't an all or nothing situation.
 
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My main point was directed at you saying their appeal to women is shallow and ineffective. I'm telling you that you are artificially limiting developer's reasons for making women leads in games. Appealing to women is one of a huge list of reasons. And who's to say that over time more women in 2025 won't be into FPS games? There's no way for us to say they won't be.

And more doesn't mean all women will be into FPS games. Just more of them. Either way dudes will keep buying games with women as the leads. Horizon, Tomb Raider, and soon Battlefield 5 and TLOU 2 will prove this to be true so it's not like devs are taking a huge risk here.
I don't think it's a huge risk, I am just questioning their proposition that more women characters = more women players. It sounds like we're talking about two different things because I have no desire to "artificially limit" what a developer does.
 
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1. We should make the lead a woman so that we can write a story from a woman's perspective.
Well, why not, Tomb Raider, Horizon.

2. We should make the lead a woman so that we can have fun designing a character that different from what we've always done. Our artists are more excited now.
I so doubt it. What about males lacking female perspective?

3. We should make the lead a woman so that we can make our game stand out compared to all the other 55 single player games.
Any success stories so far?

5. We should make the lead a woman because it's about time a woman is the lead of a FPS game.
A game genre hardly played by women, and, clearly, lack of female leads is not the reason as in a number of shooters you don't even have a single campaign and can fully customize views of your character. Exactly what should that kind of thing achieve, for it to be even declarable as success?

6. We should make the lead a woman so that we can appeal to more people.
How is it different from having a man write erotic novel so that it can "appeal to more people" (we mean gender this time, don't we)? That's a multi-billion industry dominated by female readers.

Stop limiting your thoughts on why companies in the video game industry do what they do. Be more open to things that are just cool and fun.
You know, that's perfectly fine, but why do that to an established franchise? Why should all that be built on "gamebro" games? Why does one need to transform "gamebro" game, to appeal to women, instead of new IP? Remind me, why Sims is so successful in female audience.

And who's to say that over time more women in 2025 won't be into FPS games?
As a parent of a boy and a girl: I AM HERE, TELLING YOU THOSE THINGS WONT' CHANGE AND ARE NOT CULTURAL (sorry for caps, it's not shouting, but stressing)
 
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I don't think it's a huge risk, I am just questioning their proposition that more women characters = more women players. It sounds like we're talking about two different things because I have no desire to "artificially limit" what a developer does.
I seems you are you artificially limiting their "motives" for making women the lead in games. Do you personally feel like making young women the lead in games like "Life is Strange" was mainly due to them wanting more women to play that game?
 
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I seems you are you artificially limiting their "motives" for making women the lead in games. Do you personally feel like making young women the lead in games like "Life is Strange" was mainly due to them wanting more women to play that game?
No, you are confusing two different concepts: motive and logic. Their motives can be whatever they wish. When a developer says they included women because "our commitment as a studio is to do everything we can to create games that are inclusive and diverse" I take no issue with their motives but I find their logic to be stupid.

Being inclusive is their motive. Cramming female characters into genres to achieve that motive is their logic. Cramming females into genres with single-digit female participation is not logical.

Pretty simple, really.
 

Sethbacca

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But how does it mean one shouldn't be worried about his/her beloved studios following SW path? How is that not "troublesome"?
So SW has failed, someone has learned something PERHAPS, but what did fans win? Somebody has ruined franchise, just didn't manage to humiliate its user base.
The problem here is the implication that fans of an IP or studio own that thing and it's never ever allowed to change or evolve. I mean I get the feeling that we could go back and forth forever and just not agree, but tell me just how well continuing to support the gamebros left CoD series and other series that push out the same rehashed tripe annually. Never evolving and never changing is not a winning formula, and likewise to not attempting to get new people to play your titles because they're not currently a large portion of your player base.
 
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The problem here is the implication that fans of an IP or studio own that thing and it's never ever allowed to change or evolve. I mean I get the feeling that we could go back and forth forever and just not agree, but tell me just how well continuing to support the gamebros left CoD series and other series that push out the same rehashed tripe annually. Never evolving and never changing is not a winning formula, and likewise to not attempting to get new people to play your titles because they're not currently a large portion of your player base.
Isn't that what the new Ghostbusters film did?
And Star Wars?
And Mavel's comic industry?
And Street Fighter V?

Those "new people that consume your titles" simply do not exist, as far as we can see.
 

Sethbacca

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Isn't that what the new Ghostbusters film did?
And Star Wars?
And Mavel's comic industry?
And Street Fighter V?

Those "new people that consume your titles" simply do not exist, as far as we can see.
It's better to try something different and fail than to offer the same tired rehashes until we get sick of it and watch an IP fizzle out and die because people just get sick of it. Arguably fighting games and comics have been dying genres for a while anyway, and Ghostbusters sucked more for the writing than the actresses.

Star Wars arguably worked. https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/star-wars-last-jedi-female-fans-747611?amp=1
 
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It's better to try something different and fail than to offer the same tired rehashes until we get sick of it and watch an IP fizzle out and die because people just get sick of it. Arguably fighting games and comics have been dying genres for a while anyway, and Ghostbusters sucked more for the writing than the actresses.

Star Wars arguably worked. https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/star-wars-last-jedi-female-fans-747611?amp=1
I think the acrtesses were equally as problematic for Ghostbusters. The director came out and stated that they were trying to hit the same balance of dry humour and horror as the original, but I didn't think they chose the right cast and yeah the writing was undoubtedly horrible. I can't blame Sony for doing so tbh as they were all noticeably big actresses, but not suited for the type of humour required, save maybe Wiig. That and they kept the three white sceintists/one black non scientist ratio from the first movie whilst reducing Leslie Jones to a walking stereotype. A shame it turned out so poorly.
 
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It's better to try something different and fail than to offer the same tired rehashes until we get sick of it and watch an IP fizzle out and die because people just get sick of it. Arguably fighting games and comics have been dying genres for a while anyway, and Ghostbusters sucked more for the writing than the actresses.

Star Wars arguably worked. https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/star-wars-last-jedi-female-fans-747611?amp=1
And yet, mangas are on the rise, and some fighting game titles sell more now than they ever have been.

It must have something to do with the content.

And actually, The Last Jedi made $750 million less than The Force Awakens, when the novelty factor died out.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottm...50m-less-than-the-force-awakens/#7c82eeab3432

Is this how an IP does not "fizzle out"?