The Naughty Dog Agenda - RobinGaming

He never said it was "wrong". He might disagree with the focus on Elle over Joel or maybe he isn't excited by lesbian romances.

He has a right to criticize that, just as much as gay people have a right to criticize "brogamers, space Marines, straight romances, blah blah blah" or whatever the fuck they carry on about.

Edit: I think the tweets at 15:00 of the video says a lot about the community Naughty Dog deliberately created. No agenda though, I'm sure
 
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He never said it was "wrong". He might disagree with the focus on Elle over Joel or maybe he isn't excited by lesbian romances.

He has a right to criticize that, just as much as gay people have a right to criticize "brogamers, space Marines, straight romances, blah blah blah" or whatever the fuck they carry on about.

Edit: I think the tweets at 15:00 of the video says a lot about the community Naughty Dog deliberately created. No agenda though, I'm sure
And what's the problem with catering to a specific demographic? Why does it deserve criticism in this case? Because his wants and needs are not their top priority?
 
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OK. We now have a total of 4 sentences from a 20 minute video.

At this point I'm simply am not convinced you're willing to construct a proper, substantiated argument that takes in the whole of what the video is showing.
What you've shown me is minimum effort and objection to a handful of sentences at the expense of everything else in the video, including surrounding context.
You have not shown the same level of transparency as the author and you have repeatedly misrepresented them.

I don't doubt your conviction and I'm sure you believe every word you share with us. But this is not a effective way to make a counterargument.
 
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And what's the problem with catering to a specific demographic? Why does it deserve criticism in this case? Because his wants and needs are not their top priority?
Excuse me, "deserve criticism"? When did Naughty Dog become above any level of criticism?

He noticed objective facts, a clear pattern and commented on it, just as happened a million times before. It's a bit rich that now criticism is to much.

Mind you, Naughty Dog is the one saying certain people shouldn't play their games.
 
OK. We now have a total of 4 sentences from a 20 minute video.

At this point I'm simply am not convinced you're willing to construct a proper, substantiated argument that takes in the whole of what the video is showing.
What you've shown me is minimum effort and objection to a handful of sentences at the expense of everything else in the video, including surrounding context.
You have not shown the same level of transparency as the author and you have repeatedly misrepresented them.

I don't doubt your conviction and I'm sure you believe every word you share with us. But this is not a convincing way to make a counterargument.
You're not a child anymore. The video is right there on the first page.

Excuse me, "deserve criticism"? When did Naughty Dog become above any level of criticism?

He noticed objective facts, a clear pattern and commented on it, just as happened a million times before. It's a bit rich that now criticism is to much.

Mind you, Naughty Dog is the one saying certain people shouldn't play their games.
So they deserve criticism for "catering" to the gay community? Why?
Is ND doing something unethical by doing so?
 
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You're not a child anymore. The video is right there on the first page.


So they deserve criticism for "catering" to the gay community? Why?
Is ND doing something unethical by doing so?
So they deserve criticism for "catering" to the gay community? Why?
Is ND doing something unethical by doing so?[/QUOTE]
Naughty Dog "catering" is essentially playing lesbian fanfiction footsie with established characters and selling the sex appeal of Elle being a lesbian. They have every right to do that, as the video goes out of way to say like 10 times, but it comes off as pandering to Twitter, instead of making good character choices. Like I said previously, I think the moment at 15:00 says a lot about the company Naughty Dog attitude toward a lot of their customers is.

Now you might think all of that is great Plasmawave. You might think "fuck men, lesbians forever" is the greatest choice a studio has ever made. That's fine. That wasn't the point of the video. Robin criticized choices Naughty Dog made, gave his personal feelings about it, and left it at that.

You're sly attempt to smear the video creator isn't fooling anyone. Naughty Dog isnt so fucking pure that no one is allowed to say " oh wait a minute, that's kinda weird and I don't like it."
 
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Both of those statements are true. Though neither of them address a single point in what you quoted.

It is your responsibility to support your own argument and address its flaws, not mine.
Do you have a point to make? Because you haven't made a cohesive one yet.

Your modus operandi is to enter threads and undermine other posts w/o actually saying shit.
 
So they deserve criticism for "catering" to the gay community? Why?
Is ND doing something unethical by doing so?
Naughty Dog "catering" is essentially playing lesbian fanfiction footsie with established characters and selling the sex appeal of Elle being a lesbian. They have every right to do that, as the video goes out of way to say like 10 times, but it comes off as pandering to Twitter, instead of making good character choices. Like I said previously, I think the moment at 15:00 says a lot about the company Naughty Dog attitude toward a lot of their customers is.

Now you might think all of that is great Plasmawave. You might think "fuck men, lesbians forever" is the greatest choice a studio has ever made. That's fine. That wasn't the point of the video. Robin criticized choices Naughty Dog made, gave his personal feelings about it, and left it at that.

You're sly attempt to smear the video creator isn't fooling anyone. Naughty Dog isnt so fucking pure that no one is allowed to say " oh wait a minute, that's kinda weird and I don't like it."
How is pandering to twitter is at odds with making good character choices?
How does putting the focus on a gay character is the same thing as saying "Fuck men!"?
Unless you're one of those people that have a problem playing as a female character you shouldn't take offense to that tweet.
 
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@plasmawave will take a paragraph and object to the "and".

I worry about @Redshirt , somethings gonna' happen to him as soon as he reaches the planet.

Here's a good question: What is so great about a lesbian main character, anyway? How does the fact that she is lesbian make the story in anyway better? What is it about a story that makes having a gay character in it better?

Keep in mind that just because it might be rare, does not in itself make the story stronger. I am not trolling, I really am curious for an answer if anyone is willing.
 
@plasmawave will take a paragraph and object to the "and".

I worry about @Redshirt , somethings gonna' happen to him as soon as he reaches the planet.

Here's a good question: What is so great about a lesbian main character, anyway? How does the fact that she is lesbian make the story in anyway better? What is it about a story that makes having a gay character in it better?

Keep in mind that just because it might be rare, does not in itself make the story stronger. I am not trolling, I really am curious for an answer if anyone is willing.
It's not about making the story stronger. It's more about having a lesbian character as your lead shouldn't be something odd, special, different or a big deal. It should be treated like any other straight video game characters.
 
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How is pandering to twitter is at odds with making good character choices?[/QUOTE ]

Because Twitter doesn't want good characters. They want fanfiction.

How does putting the focus on a gay character is the same thing as saying "Fuck men!"?
Unless you're one of those people that have a problem playing as a female character you shouldn't take offense to that tweet.
Insinuating that anyone who disagrees with your creative choice collectively hates a group of people(which I'm going to assume is Naught Dog official position on their supporters) is a ridiculous way to talk to your fans, customers, whatever.

He has every right to criticize that, and you're still trying to smear him as a homophobe for pointing out the truth of that.
 
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Here's a good question: What is so great about a lesbian main character, anyway? How does the fact that she is lesbian make the story in anyway better? What is it about a story that makes having a gay character in it better?
Here's a great question: What is so great about a heterosexual character, anyway? How does the fact that she is straight make the story in anyway better? What is it about a story that makes having a straight character in it better?
 
Hi Resdhirt, thanks for your questions, I'll answer them as best I can.

Do you have a point to make? Because you haven't made a cohesive one yet.
I've made a number of statements with various points in earlier in this discussion. It's pretty long thread so you may need to go back a bit.

Your modus operandi is to enter threads and undermine other posts w/o actually saying shit.
I've rarely entered a discussion to say "I agree" and walk away. And with this "Like" function for comments on this forum, there's even less reason to do so now.

When I have a contrasting view I tend to engage more frequently. I try to be courteous and give those I engage with an opportunity to come back to me with substance.
If, instead of substance, I receive deflection or some other unconstructive response, I may leave it there or I may not.
If I encounter what I believe is some sort of false premise then there's a chance I'll challenge it and ask questions. As I have done recently.

I'm not here to substantiate the arguments of the people whose arguments I'm challenging.
I don't see anything particularly outlandish in this stance.
 
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"If you’re so socially and culturally inept that the option to play a video game as a female gets you all worked up in a frothy nerdrage: "

Are you one of those people? If not, why do you take offense to what he said? He's not talking about you.
 
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And this is wrong because...?
What makes him think he should be catered first and foremost before the gay community?
Well, at least we've got a semblance of some admittance from you that it could be politically driven. If, like you're suggesting, Neil is 'catering to the gay community' then that is indeed an agenda.

The truth is, you WANT it to be agenda driven. The truth is, you can't see beyond you're own soft prejudice. The truth is, you NEED those labels to be re-enforced so you can feel 'good about yourself' when you defend them. The truth is, every time you read another post, expressing with clarity and intelligence, the nature of the debate, THAT very intelligence requires the removal of the label. The truth is, the reason you could not answer a simple question is because in answering, you are afraid the power of the label, the motive for your 'feelings' would be lost in rationality. The truth is, you NEED a victim to feel like a saviour.

SJW
 
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Well, at least we've got a semblance of some admittance from you that it could be politically driven. If, like you're suggesting, Neil is 'catering to the gay community' then that is indeed an agenda. The truth is, you WANT it to be agenda driven. The truth is, you can't see beyond you're own soft prejudice. The truth is, you NEED those labels to be re-enforced so you can feel 'good about yourself' when you defend them. The truth is, every time you read another post, expressing with clarity and intelligence, the nature of the debate, THAT very intelligence requires the removal of the label. The truth is, the reason you could not answer a simple question is because in answering, you are afraid the power of the label, the motive for your 'feelings' would be lost in rationality. The truth is, you NEED a victim to feel like a saviour.
That's a lot of projection you got going on there.
I didn't say ND was catering to the gay community. The guy I was responding to did. And to that my question was "so what?"
So, what is exactly the downside of catering to the gay community? Tell me.
 
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13:28

No, he doesn't have an issue with a gay main character.
He doesn't have an issue with the kiss in the trailer.
He doesn't have an issue with ND 'endorsing' Chlodine.
He doesn't mind that Drake had a daughter,
He doesn't mind that ND hired a racist heterophobe that posts awful things on twitter.
He doesn't mind that ND chose to have their panel hosted by a lesbian vlogger who doesn't know jack about games.
He doesn't care that one employee attacked 'toxic gamerbros.'

Putting those pieces together, he thinks it's pretty clear ND has an agenda to push this kind of content because of a real life ideology. And even then, his main point is that he doesn't necessarily mind this agenda if it doesn't impact the games, but if it ever does, and the quality of the game suffers, and the games don't appeal to him anymore... ND will have lost a hardcore fan.

I don't know if you're just not perceptive or if you're deliberately leaving out this information, but somehow you keep ignoring, downplaying and misrepresenting the arguments made in the video.

I don't understand why we keep finding ourselves discussing whether we're allowed to criticize things either. Anyone can criticize anything for any possible reason. You're free to dismiss this criticism, and you probably should ignore a lot of the criticism out there. This particular video though even goes as far to say that ND can do whatever they want, that he's not telling them what to do, that you're free to disagree with his stance, all of that good stuff, and yet we're having this debate over whether we should have a debate. It's baffling.
 
13:28

No, he doesn't have an issue with a gay main character.
He doesn't have an issue with the kiss in the trailer.
He doesn't have an issue with ND 'endorsing' Chlodine.
He doesn't mind that Drake had a daughter,
He doesn't mind that ND hired a racist heterophobe that posts awful things on twitter.
He doesn't mind that ND chose to have their panel hosted by a lesbian vlogger who doesn't know jack about games.
He doesn't care that one employee attacked 'toxic gamerbros.'

Putting those pieces together, he thinks it's pretty clear ND has an agenda to push this kind of content because of a real life ideology. And even then, his main point is that he doesn't necessarily mind this agenda if it doesn't impact the games, but if it ever does, and the quality of the game suffers, and the games don't appeal to him anymore... ND will have lost a hardcore fan.

I don't know if you're just not perceptive or if you're deliberately leaving out this information, but somehow you keep ignoring, downplaying and misrepresenting the arguments made in the video.

I don't understand why we keep finding ourselves discussing whether we're allowed to criticize things either. Anyone can criticize anything for any possible reason. You're free to dismiss this criticism, and you probably should ignore a lot of the criticism out there. This particular video though even goes as far to say that ND can do whatever they want, that he's not telling them what to do, that you're free to disagree with his stance, all of that good stuff, and yet we're having this debate over whether we should have a debate. It's baffling.
"I don't have a problem... BUT I have a problem."

Let me sum up the video for you.

"Stop catering to a specific community (but don't forget to cater to my taste) and make games only for entertainment and escapism."
 
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"I don't have a problem... BUT I have a problem."

Let me sum up the video for you.

"Stop catering to a specific community (but don't forget to cater to my taste) and make games only for entertainment and escapism."
Did you even read the part about misrepresenting people's arguments? Because it sure looks like you didn't, because you just keep on doing it.

Like, even if you don't respect the argument itself, at least have the decency to be as truthful and as all-encompassing as possible, because you're still talking to and about other human beings. Personally I have watched the video multiple times now, to make sure I don't put words in Robin's mouth, or that I quote him right, out of respect for him. If you're trying to be dismissive and dishonest from the start, what even is the point in talking with people?
 
Did you even read the part about misrepresenting people's arguments? Because it sure looks like you didn't, because you just keep on doing it.

Like, even if you don't respect the argument itself, at least have the decency to be as truthful and as all-encompassing as possible, because you're still talking to and about other human beings. Personally I have watched the video multiple times now, to make sure I don't put words in Robin's mouth, or that I quote him right, out of respect for him. If you're trying to be dismissive and dishonest from the start, what even is the point in talking with people?
It is what he literally says in the video, dude. "ND should set their priority straight and make games for people who just want to have fun and escape from reality".
 
It's not about making the story stronger. It's more about having a lesbian character as your lead shouldn't be something odd, special, different or a big deal. It should be treated like any other straight video game characters.
Here's a great question: What is so great about a heterosexual character, anyway? How does the fact that she is straight make the story in anyway better? What is it about a story that makes having a straight character in it better?
First I'll start off with @plasmawave : We agree on something! This makes my day! If it doesn't matter, then what are we really arguing about, then? Think carefully, I want us to come to this conclusion together, if we can.

@Redshirt it is not good form to answer a question with a question. But, I'll answer it because it is easy for me to do. There is nothing inherently great about the sexuality of any character. The story given to us will answer the second question. I wrote a bit about what a story should do earlier in this thread. I also wrote about my thoughts on videogame stories in general. I am not generally a fan.
 
It is what he literally says in the video, dude. "ND should set their priority straight and make games for people who just want to have fun and escape from reality".
No, he doesn't. He's just making the observation that some of ND's recent decisions have left a bad taste for himself and other fans he knows. True, he does seem to prefer simple entertainment in his games rather than social commentary, and he thinks most gamers want that kind of expierence, but that's not telling ND what to do. He's making a suggestion from his point of view.
 
No, he doesn't. He's just making the observation that some of ND's recent decisions have left a bad taste for himself and other fans he knows. True, he does seem to prefer simple entertainment in his games rather than social commentary, and he thinks most gamers want that kind of expierence, but that's not telling ND what to do. He's making a suggestion from his point of view.
18:36

"Most of us play games to have fun, to escape reality and experience great stories that don't strongly push an agenda but to simply entertain. I can only hope that ND will remember to make games for these people. And to do so with their priority in the right place."

As if games can't have gay characters AND be entertaining.
 
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18:36

"Most of us play games to have fun, to escape reality and experience great stories that don't strongly push an agenda but to simply entertain. I can only hope that ND will remember to make games for these people. And to do so with their priority in the right place."

As if games can't have gay characters AND be entertaining.
Nice quote. Read a few times just to remind yourself of what you've been told over and over.
 
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18:36

"Most of us play games to have fun, to escape reality and experience great stories that don't strongly push an agenda but to simply entertain. I can only hope that ND will remember to make games for these people. And to do so with their priority in the right place."

As if games can't have gay characters AND be entertaining.
Yes, I thought that was the part you were referring to. But hoping for something is different from saying they should do something. You should bring me flowers versus I hope you bring me flowers. There's less forcefulness behind hoping. That's the best I can explain it as English is not my native tongue.

Robin has already enjoyed games with gay characters so your latter statement is wrong either way.
 
Yes, I thought that was the part you were referring to. But hoping for something is different from saying they should do something. You should bring me flowers versus I hope you bring me flowers. There's less forcefulness behind hoping. That's the best I can explain it as English is not my native tongue.

Robin has already enjoyed games with gay characters so your latter statement is wrong either way.
Apparently he doesn't think so with TLOU2 having gay characters in the forefront kissing.
 
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Removed from thread. You've repeatedly refused to engage a point because it weakens your argument. At this point you've been given may chances. Take the time away to clarify your stance and position clearly.
He says so in the video that ND is just scoring points with the twitter crowd by catering to them. But why argue with facts when you can just use your feelings? ;)
 
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I gotta agree, Naughty Dog does have an agenda. Absolutely disgusting.
Logged in here after a several month hiatus following the revelation that the owner of this site is a douche.

On some level it is obvious that those who felt strongly inclined toward #MeToo would have left following those revelations for greener pastures such as ResetEra. I wouldn’t have guessed how drastic the difference is after several months.

For the creator of this video, and those of you who feel inclined to accept his “moderate” world view: There is no “balance” in a world that has sought, and continues to seek, to oppress the rights of minorities.

For those of us who feel uncomfortable about people unlike us aggressively seeking their place in the world, whether it’s video games or some other form of art, remember that comfort is a luxury many people unlike you (or I) have not known.

Don’t be lulled by people such as the OP or creator of this video who tell you that we must be “fair and balanced,” but ultimately argue that “radical politics” or an “agenda” shouldn’t interfere with the “quality” of a product. These are the most insidious arguments.

Take a bold, aggressive stance. Period. Whether it’s in the face or explicit oppression, or in the face of a complicit system which continues to tell us that everything is fine.

And when someone tells you it’s important to “listen to both sides,” tell them:

Ban my account, motherfucker.

See y’all on ResetEra!
Good riddance. Actually, you're more suited to be in to be in that echochamber of man-children instead of here, anyways.
 
Here's a great question: What is so great about a heterosexual character, anyway? How does the fact that she is straight make the story in anyway better? What is it about a story that makes having a straight character in it better?
Those are interesting and legitimate questions. I don't think heterosexual characters should be viewed as the default starting point.

Creative choices driven by real-life political goals that hurt the story, that's where I draw the line. This applies equally to all sorts of political, religious, cultural and scientific agendas. It certainly applies equally to heterosexual and gay characters.

In the case of TLoU2, what I've watched so far does not have me worried. It all seems skilful, plausible and in line with the previous title. But given Druckmann's words I can't be too sure that the final product will follow along those lines.
 
@Redshirt it is not good form to answer a question with a question. But, I'll answer it because it is easy for me to do. There is nothing inherently great about the sexuality of any character. The story given to us will answer the second question. I wrote a bit about what a story should do earlier in this thread. I also wrote about my thoughts on videogame stories in general. I am not generally a fan.
It was rhetorical. I rephrased the question to make a point. Perhaps not well.

Creative choices driven by real-life political goals that hurt the story, that's where I draw the line. This applies equally to all sorts of political, religious, cultural and scientific agendas. It certainly applies equally to heterosexual and gay characters.

In the case of TLoU2, what I've watched so far does not have me worried. It all seems skilful, plausible and in line with the previous title. But given Druckmann's words I can't be too sure that the final product will follow along those lines.
Druckmann has been a writer on all? (I think) of ND's cinematic games.

Even the issues (such as Nadine) people had with Uncharted 4 (a game I didn't particularly like) seem so minor to me.

So, even if there's a concerted effort to push a progressive/liberal/homosexual/whatever agenda, I just don't see how it will actually hurt the story.

For the record, I'm not someone who thinks TLoU is a masterpiece, but I enjoyed it well enough.
 
It was rhetorical. I rephrased the question to make a point. Perhaps not well.



Druckmann has been a writer on all? (I think) of ND's cinematic games.

Even the issues (such as Nadine) people had with Uncharted 4 (a game I didn't particularly like) seem so minor to me.

So, even if there's a concerted effort to push a progressive/liberal/homosexual/whatever agenda, I just don't see how it will actually hurt the story.

For the record, I'm not someone who thinks TLoU is a masterpiece, but I enjoyed it well enough.
Nor did i say it will hurt the sory. In fact, I said quite the opposite, that, as of now, it all seems artfully done. But there simply is no guarantee at this point that Druckmann 's ever escalating rhetoric won't somehow manifest itself in the finished game.

I was making a general point as to where the line needs to be drawn. I have also cited two concrete examples where, had the inclusivity agenda had its way, the games would have suffered, namely TW3 and KC : D .

The greatest service one can pay to a liberal view - in the classical sense of the term - is to acknowledge there is no inherent artistic value to a character's sexuality, be it heterosexual, be it homosexual, be it whatever the creator deems fit.
 
Nor did i say it will hurt the sory. In fact, I said quite the opposite, that, as of now, it all seems artfully done. But there simply is no guarantee at this point that Druckmann 's ever escalating rhetoric won't somehow manifest itself in the finished game.

I was making a general point as to where the line needs to be drawn. I have also cited two concrete examples where, had the inclusivity agenda had its way, the games would have suffered, namely TW3 and KC : D .

The greatest service one can pay to a liberal view - in the classical sense of the term - is to acknowledge there is no inherent artistic value to a character's sexuality, be it heterosexual, be it homosexual, be it whatever the creator deems fit.
So, Witcher 3 and Kingdom Come would have suffered how?

I was not among the crowd who was shouting for minorities in KC and actually left you know where over the whole Vavra/thought-policing debacle.

That said, black people in KC or TW3 would not have hurt the story for me, so I reject those examples. They're up there with #notmybattlefield afaic.
 
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It is what he literally says in the video, dude. "ND should set their priority straight and make games for people who just want to have fun and escape from reality".
But games shouldn't be made just for people to have fun. What a waste of possibilities of the media that would be. There is a lot more to TV than fun entertainment, there is education, news, etc.
We already have EA, Activision and Ubi focusing on "fun", I'm sure we can have some developers focusing on making games THEY want to make, instead of just games OTHERS want to play. If games were made just for fun and nothing else , they would all use the same templates and never take any risk.
I seriously doubt that Sony is wasting millions on a game to allow a writer just to "push an agenda". There is way too much overthinking about this going on.
A lesbian girl grew older and, as all girls her age, is now interested in romance. That's just it.