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[Darkking2001]

eww, that just sounds dirty and I would feel that you would be reading to much into that photo just because I chose to take a picture of the grass instead of the tree.



and as the artist I would tell you it's because I just wanted to paint the tree.

But why did you want to paint the tree over the grass...what would be the reason?

 

[Azurro]

But why did you want to paint the tree over the grass...what would be the reason?

Because it looked pretty. What would be the political position behind that statement?

 

[NahaNago]

But why did you want to paint the tree over the grass...what would be the reason?

That is something for my psychiatrist to psychoanalyze out of me since I just wanted to paint it.

 

[Darkking2001]

I could guess...
Nature that stands long is what we humans to strive for as a community that branches into different branches of life

 

[mckmas8808]

If that's your standpoint then why is it only after such an awful trailer have people criticised ND? Why didn't they criticise the cast of UC:LL (well received) or the diverse cast I outlined in TLoU (well received)? You're closing yourself off to any other avenue of criticism other than 'must be homophobes', 'must be insecure'. Are you kidding?

If you listen to the guy in the video, he is saying that look at all the great work you guys are doing. You don't need to go to extremes to shove it in our face. Or make everything into a battle or an opportunity to ram down our throat how 'progressive' you're being. We get it, we applaud you for it, we notice it. But the real truth is, many of us just don't care. Whatever creative freedom you want, then go for it, it's your product. But if a lot of your fanbase are saying 'actually guys it's becoming tiresome, stop seeking the limelight and let your actual game do the talking', then it might be an idea to balance both sides of the argument.

And yes, If Dina's boyfriend had swept round and took her in his arms then started kissing under the music, and then it cut to them being shot, it would be as awful a scene. You can remove Ellie completely from the scene and the composition is still poor. But the composition is built entirely around that 'kiss', and then the fade into sequence.

Who said the TLOU2's lastest trailer was awful? It was one of the best trailers out this year.

 

[Darkking2001]

That is something for my psychiatrist to psychoanalyze out of me since I just wanted to paint it.

There's nothing wrong with your way of doing things I just take it as an expression of freedom some people live like that and some others don't

 

[NahaNago]

I could guess...
Nature that stands long is what we humans to strive for as a community that branches into different branches of life

Naruhodo.

edit to basic art topic : i guess I'm just going to have to just fundamentally disagree since I'm just not the type to see politics in all artwork. I can understand how you can see it inside of all artwork but not agree that all artwork is inherently political.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

It's easy to say this when you are white. It's funny though, because the second these polygons that are lead characters aren't white straight males, a "certain" collection of "gamers" get upset. I just wish more of some of the people in this thread would be more honest and stop the BS. One set of people want stories told to and by a wider audience of characters. Another set of people want the same narrow set of characters in their games. And there's a 3rd set of gamers that really could less either way and most of them aren't posting in this thread.

It is easy to say this when you don't have a complex. Like most rational people.

There were still black characters even back in the 8/16 bit era, and so many characters were from games made in Japan. It just so happens that many whites and Japanese have fairly similar skin tones. So it was freaking easy to port a Japanese character over and give them a European style name.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

If that's your standpoint then why is it only after such an awful trailer have people criticised ND?

1. They trailer was awful? It was extremely well received. One of the most watched E3 trailers and with over 300.000 likes on Sony channel alone.
2. Like I said, people seemed fine with it as long as was easy to ignore. But now that it isn't anymore they voice "concerns".
3. Some people already made the same demented arguments about the Left Behind DLC. "I don't want no agenda in muh gamz"

You don't need to go to extremes to shove it in our face.

Neither is it an extreme nor is it shoved. Its just a normal depiction in the context of the game. If you don't consider it normal, but rather "forced", "preachy" or even "propaganda", the problem lies with you, not the devs.

I feel like I have to repeat that every single post.

But the real truth is, many of us just don't care.

Yeah, lol. Making 30 min Youtube videos definitely makes it look like people don't care.

But if a lot of your fanbase are saying 'actually guys it's becoming tiresome, stop seeking the limelight and let your actual game do the talking', then it might be an idea to balance both sides of the argument.

The game will sell gangbusters. Like, I don't think it would be much of a gamble to say that it will be Sonys best selling 1st Party on Ps4 by quite a bit.
If there really is that part of the "fanbase" then it should be ignored or shunned and I trust NaughtyDog to do that. There is no "both sides" here. One side is correct, the other isn't.


Also, regarding the bolded part: That is the actual game. Thats part of the story and the story is what TLoU is known for. This is the creative essence that made the first game one of the best of all time. The kiss scene tells you as much about the game as the gameplay scene.

 

[mckmas8808]

It is easy to say this when you don't have a complex. Like most rational people.

There were still black characters even back in the 8/16 bit era, and so many characters were from games made in Japan. It just so happens that many whites and Japanese have fairly similar skin tones. So it was freaking easy to port a Japanese character over and give them a European style name.

No complex just reality my dude. Nothing hard about making more characters in games not be white dudes. It wasn't hard thing and it definitely isn't hard now.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

No complex just reality my dude. Nothing hard about making more characters in games not be white dudes. It wasn't hard thing and it definitely isn't hard now.

Your reality - even if you choose to ignore it- is that there are many black gaming characters despite the demographic realities of who plays games globally. A huge number of games these days have generic protagonists that let you decide how the character looks/sounds. It isn't like you don't have options if all you want to be in a game is a black man.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

No, because I think the accusations are accurate.
Your viewpoint, or rather the ones presented in RobinGamings video(I don't really know what your viewpoint is exactly), only makes sense from a sexist/homophobic perspective.

Well, I thought the RobinGaming video raised some good points. And it's a pretty weird homophobia that let's me love games like Life Is Strange, The Red Strings Club, GrimGrimoire, Technobablyon and so many other games with prominent and playable LGBT characters.

No but you apply an absolutely ridiculously double standard in which homosexual characters need to be justified in some absurd way.
In which there is a very narrow window they must fit to be deemed acceptable by your standards.

There's no double standard. If there were signs pointing to shitty, preachy, didactic writing on the basis of heterosexuality or manhood I'd voice my concern. In fact I have, in the past, worried out loud about that very situation before Season 1 of "F is for Family." Here's a post from 2015 where I relay my concerns from before the debut, having read some pre release material:

Yeah, I was slightly afraid reading the show's description and seeing the trailers that this would just nakedly romanticize or be solely sympathetic toward the 70's male perspective. Burr's standup always has more nuance but he can really delve into "bitter dude" mode at times on his podcast. Ultimately, though, my fears were unfounded.

Essentially the exact same thing except for the fact that I was harsher on "F is for Family."

I have not heard a single valid argument show that there is anything wrong whats depicted. All your reaching and scrambling arguments lead me to the same conclusion: The problem lies with you guys.

Yeah you're probably not gonna hear that argument if, for many people, that was never their contention. First lines of my 2nd post in this thread:

If you watch the video you'll see the crux of his argument isn't this kiss. He spends relatively little time on it as well he should because in itself it's a non-issue. It's basically him noticing an increasing trend toward SJW attitudes in ND -- from observing their social media and dev talks-- and worrying aloud that this may worsen the quality of their games.

It's only people like you insisting that the kiss must be the sole basis for criticism and demanding people explain whats wrong with "lesbians simply existing bro?!" I'm not going to defend a position I never held. Also it isn't a reach to say "I'm worried the attitudes developing at ND may lead to changes I dislike" then literally provide evidence of them expressing those attitudes in developer talks and on social media.

I also think that people who use the term "SJW" in a serious way can't be taken seriously.

lol, how convenient. okay good luck with that dude.

 

[cormack12]

.....

I appreciate your selective answering but can you answer the first question please as it's the most relevant? If this is just homophobia or any other sort of agenda.....well the ducks were lined up....

Why didn't they criticise the cast of UC:LL (well received) or the diverse cast I outlined in TLoU (well received)?

The guy made a video about a creeping theme in the ND games. When I said 'don't care' I meant in general it doesn't matter. You want me to care that Ellie's sexuality is something worthy of including in a videogame. I don't think it's important at all. Therefore it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't turn me off the game, it doesn't turn me onto the game.

It's probably best to think of this as perception. It's your perception that there is nothing forced and nothing wrong with the scene. It's other people's perception, there is nothing wrong with the scene but it is forced. SO that's why the conversation exists right?

I have no doubt it will sell well, if it's like the first game and has the ND polish then it should. And it should be a very good game. But the studio's quality is not in doubt here.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's only people like you insisting that the kiss must be the sole basis for criticism and demanding people explain whats wrong with "lesbians simply existing bro?!" I'm not going to defend a position I never held. Also it isn't a reach to say "I'm worried the attitudes developing at ND may lead to changes I dislike" then literally provide evidence of them expressing those attitudes in developer talks and on social media.



lol, how convenient. okay good luck with that dude.

It's weird that people act like these people at ND didn't work there for many years "BEFORE" you found out how they felt about things on Twitter. It's as if you can't imagine them being professional and just being a good artist for a city landscape, a good animator of faces, or good sound creation in a game because "NOW" you know how they feel about diversity in media. They could have felt that way 10 years ago and still been able to do their jobs well.

And it's fair to think people that use the term SJW so easily shouldn't be taken all that seriously. You'd have to admit that it can be very dismissive.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I appreciate your selective answering but can you answer the first question please as it's the most relevant? If this is just homophobia or any other sort of agenda.....well the ducks were lined up....

Why didn't they criticise the cast of UC:LL (well received) or the diverse cast I outlined in TLoU (well received)?

Quoting myself:

Like I said, people seemed fine with it as long as was easy to ignore.

Does that answer not satisfy you? Do people want credit now for not complaining about female characters or what?

The guy made a video about a creeping theme in the ND games.

"creeping theme" as if it were a sinister goal to have more diverse representation in games, especially when you are in the business of making mature, story and character focussed games.

When I said 'don't care' I meant in general it doesn't matter. You want me to care that Ellie's sexuality is something worthy of including in a videogame. I don't think it's important at all.

To NaughtyDog it is important because they believe the medium can be more than it currently is and a first step in that direction is better representation.

Therefore it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't turn me off the game, it doesn't turn me onto the game.

But apparently you fear that will have a negative effect on your enjoyment of the game. Isn't that the entire people are trying to make here. "What if NaughtyDog goes too far with their agenda? I don't like SJW propaganda!"

It's probably best to think of this as perception. It's your perception that there is nothing forced and nothing wrong with the scene. It's other people's perception, there is nothing wrong with the scene but it is forced. SO that's why the conversation exists right?

Yes, but if you say its forced you need to have some standards as to what exactly about it is forced.
The game wants to have an openly gay protagonist, thats an integral part of the character and the character is the main focal point of the story.
Making a trailer showing Ellie in a relaxed setting seemingly enjoying a normal life and juxtapose that with intense violence is quite brilliant.
You'd have make up incredibly arbitrary and ridiculous standards to call to "forced".

I have no doubt it will sell well, if it's like the first game and has the ND polish then it should. And it should be a very good game. But the studio's quality is not in doubt here.

I also assume that come release none of the people complaining now will have an issue with the game.
They're incited now by the current wave of demented anti-SJW talk thats rampant among gamers, but at the end of the day they, too, enjoy the work SJWs do.
Because ultimately the social justice push brings us better characters, better stories and more interesting settings.
So they might hate Anita Sarkeesian and all the other "SJWs" and "feminazis", but at the end of the day they will enjoy the fruits of their criticism, without even noticing who they have to thank(in part) for that.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

It's weird that people act like these people at ND didn't work there for many years "BEFORE" you found out how they felt about things on Twitter. It's as if you can't imagine them being professional and just being a good artist for a city landscape, a good animator of faces, or good sound creation in a game because "NOW" you know how they feel about diversity in media. They could have felt that way 10 years ago and still been able to do their jobs well.

1. Not all of them did, the video addresses at least one new hire.
2. Principle talent that has worked there for years have shifted perspective, Most notably Neil Druckmann (recently promoted to VP) being inspired by Anita, even to the point where he radically altered a prior game idea because he considers the original concept "sexist" for having had mutant female enemies.
3. This will inevitably effect future hires and staff decisions.
4. Other principle talent like Amy Hennig were reportedly ousted over creative differences. I have my own feelings on that but even without speculating her influence being gone is a negative blow for ND.

All this is to say just because most of the same people work there, doesn't mean the company cant be going in a new direction. Most of the same people worked at Marvel when it went south. Also I never said I cant consider the developers talented. I even said the trans kid in the trailer may be a genuine talent. But their social media presence is reprehensible and the persistent move in that direction on social media from ND is indicative of where the company may go.

And it's fair to think people that use the term SJW so easily shouldn't be taken all that seriously. You'd have to admit that it can be very dismissive.

Every pejorative term can be very dismissive. It also can accurately describe a very negative behavior and perspective that some people display. And if being dismissive is your concern shouldn't you call out the blanket dismissal of anyone simply uses the term "SJW?"

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

All this is to say just because most of the same people work there, doesn't mean the company cant be going in a new direction.

What if the new direction is even better than the old one?
What if there is no new direction at all, but the direction simply evolved?

Every pejorative term can be very dismissive. It also can accurately describe a very negative behavior and perspective that some people display. And if being dismissive is your concern shouldn't you call out the blanket dismissal of anyone simply uses the term "SJW?"

Its a term that makes no sense semantically. Social justice is a positive thing, somehow turning that around is dumb.
We have a similar term in german, "Gutmensch" -"good human", used as a pejorative term by racists for people who think letting refugees drown in the sea is wrong.
SJW is pretty much the same phenomenon, just that the topic it evolved from isn't refugees but rather social progress.

Someone using either term is a strong indicator as to what kind of political opinions that person holds.
While "Gutmensch" is usually used by nationalists and racists. "SJW" is used by socially regressive people, who often are sexist, homophobic or racist as well. Like, it tells me something about you when you think that fighting for diversity, representation and against sexism in video games is actually a bad thing.
Using the word "Feminazi" is another such indicator. Just like an "All Lives Matter" or "Trump" bumper sticker, its an easy way to identify idiots.

 

[mckmas8808]

1. Not all of them did, the video addresses at least one new hire.
2. Principle talent that has worked there for years have shifted perspective, Most notably Neil Druckmann (recently promoted to VP) being inspired by Anita, even to the point where he radically altered a prior game idea because he considers the original concept "sexist" for having had mutant female enemies.
3. This will inevitably effect future hires and staff decisions.
4. Other principle talent like Amy Hennig were reportedly ousted over creative differences. I have my own feelings on that but even without speculating her influence being gone is a negative blow for ND.

All this is to say just because most of the same people work there, doesn't mean the company cant be going in a new direction. Most of the same people worked at Marvel when it went south. Also I never said I cant consider the developers talented. I even said the trans kid in the trailer may be a genuine talent. But their social media presence is reprehensible and the persistent move in that direction on social media from ND is indicative of where the company may go.



Every pejorative term can be very dismissive. It also can accurately describe a very negative behavior and perspective that some people display. And if being dismissive is your concern shouldn't you call out the blanket dismissal of anyone simply uses the term "SJW?"

This whole thing is stupid really at the end of the day. But it's the internet in 2018 so all of us can get our rocks off on "talking" about it and being social with our opinions. At the end of the day, the E3 trailer is fine. I guess this is the "new" culture war and how it's being fought relative to the way it was fought 25 years ago. It's all getting kinda wack and boring now that I can see the seams in a lot of people's opinions. It doesn't feel organic at all. Seeing the term(s)

1. SJW
2. Shove down our throats
3. modern day feminists
4. Race Hustlers\Race Baiters
5. Snowflake

All of it is starting to become boring and wack to me because it doesn't even feel like people are even trying to be thoughtful.

 

[Dunki]

What if the new direction is even better than the old one?
What if there is no new direction at all, but the direction simply evolved?


Its a term that makes no sense semantically. Social justice is a positive thing, somehow turning that around is dumb.
We have a similar term in german, "Gutmensch" -"good human", used as a pejorative term by racists for people who think letting refugees drown in the sea is wrong.
SJW is pretty much the same phenomenon, just that the topic it evolved from isn't refugees but rather social progress.

Someone using either term is a strong indicator as to what kind of political opinions that person holds.
While "Gutmensch" is usually used by nationalists and racists. "SJW" is used by socially regressive people, who often are sexist, homophobic or racist as well. Like, it tells me something about you when you think that fighting for diversity, representation and against sexism in video games is actually a bad thing.
Using the word "Feminazi" is another such indicator. Just like an "All Lives Matter" or "Trump" bumper sticker, its an easy way to identify idiots.

a SJW is someone who takes this to seriously. Someone who thinks that this is a war and who need to destroy his enemies. It is someone who believes that his or her actions are all justified no matter what because they are on the right side of history. Also the term gutmensch is way way older than Nazis have been using it. It is someone who only cares about his ego and he does this to make himself feel good. He is a hypocrite.

 

[mckmas8808]

a SJW is someone who takes this to seriously. Someone who thinks that this is a war and who need to destroy his enemies. It is someone who believes that his or her actions are all justified no matter what because they are on the right side of history. Also the term gutmensch is way way older than Nazis have been using it. It is someone who only cares about his ego and he does this to make himself feel good. He is a hypocrite.

So is it possible that the term "SJW" is used too loosely/quickly?

 

[Vampire On Titus]

What if the new direction is even better than the old one?
What if there is no new direction at all, but the direction simply evolved?

If it's better then the worries, although valid, will ultimately be proven wrong. That would be great. It would be like the concerns I expressed pre release about "F is for Family." I was grateful to be wrong about that show. But there's very obviously a new direction. Listen to the Vice President of Naughty Dog talk about it himself. Amy Hennig wouldn't be gone over creative differences without a new direction.

There's not much to this question, though. "What if things are good instead of bad?" Well then they'll be good, obviously. But enthusiast who closely follow the creators they like are gonna notice and react to red flags.

Its a term that makes no sense semantically. Social justice is a positive thing, somehow turning that around is dumb.

It's just not literal. Pejoratives that work like this aren't anything new and I think everyone gets it. In certain circles "nice guy" is a pejorative. You could just as easily say that being a nice guy is positive and turning that around is dumb. I wouldn't, though, because I get it. The whole point is they're not actually nice guys and the whole point is they're not actually warriors for social justice. Even though both groups the pejorative addresses claim to be.

Everyone using the term understands that. Not everything is literal.

Someone using either term is a strong indicator as to what kind of political opinions that person holds.

It's regularly used by tons of people all across the political spectrum with the exception of far leftists. If you haven't noticed this then you might be in a bubble. The term has pretty much broken into the mainstream and It's more than likely here to stay. I'd really disabuse myself of the notion that it's cool to write off anyone who simply uses it if I were you. You're almost certainly writing off more decent people than you think.

At the end of the day, the E3 trailer is fine.

I'm not doing this again. Actually read what I said or don't but I'm not responding to misrepresentations of my argument anymore.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

a SJW is someone who takes this to seriously. Someone who thinks that this is a war and who need to destroy his enemies. It is someone who believes that his or her actions are all justified no matter what because they are on the right side of history. Also the term gutmensch is way way older than Nazis have been using it. It is someone who only cares about his ego and he does this to make himself feel good. He is a hypocrite.

Yes, but the very point is that neither "SJW" nor "Gutmensch" work in that way in the instances where they are used.
Lets take for example Anita Sarkeesia. She gets called a "SJW" a lot, but all she does is feminist media criticism, which is a fucking normal thing. Yet gamers, who apparently can't deal with that, attack her as if she is doing something wrong.
She exactly isn't "someone who takes this to seriously, someone who thinks that this is a war and who need to destroy his enemies".
If anything, the reactions she receives kinda prove her point.
Just like people who care about the lives of refugees aren't just virtue signalling "Gutmenschen", but they actually have a point.

Also the term gutmensch is way way older than Nazis have been using it. It is someone who only cares about his ego and he does this to make himself feel good. He is a hypocrite.

Hitler used the term in a derogatory way for people who were against the killing of disabled people.
Hardly hypocrites who care about their ego and want to make themselves feel good.

 

[Dunki]

Hitler used the term in a derogatory way for people who were against the killing of disabled people.
Hardly hypocrites who care about their ego and want to make themselves feel good.

DUden seit 2000:

[naiver] Mensch, der sich in einer als unkritisch, übertrieben, nervtötend o. ä. empfundenen Weise im Sinne der Political Correctness verhält, sich für die Political Correctness einsetzt

https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Gutmensch

Wörter und Bedeutungen ändern sich. And Hitler used many words so we can not use any words Hitler has used? Like Arbeit? like Fleiß?

Yes, but the very point is that neither "SJW" nor "Gutmensch" work in that way in the instances where they are used.
Lets take for example Anita Sarkeesia. She gets called a "SJW" a lot, but all she does is feminist media criticism, which is a fucking normal thing. Yet gamers, who apparently can't deal with that, attack her as if she is doing something wrong.
She exactly isn't "someone who takes this to seriously, someone who thinks that this is a war and who need to destroy his enemies".
If anything, the reactions she receives kinda prove her point.
Just like people who care about the lives of refugees aren't just virtue signalling "Gutmenschen", but they actually have a point.

Anita Sarkesian is what I call a scam artist. She and her lies are the reson the atmosphere has become very toxic and does not make normal convesations possible. She also stole material from Youtube which she then used in a way to lie about games and their perception, their mechanics, their goals all to fit her Agenda. What I would call Anita is not a SJW I call her an asshole who is all in for the money (AKA 35k for a discord server) And yes she takes money very seriously dand does everything to scam more out of stupid people.


As for the refugee point. Again it fits perfectly with the decription of the Duden. They are naive they do not think they do this to make themselves feel better. There is a realistically limit and Germany has already supassed this limit by far. But sure please tell my jewish friend why he can not walk around with his kippa anymore. The naivety and nazi calling in the begining was just ridiculous.

 

[Darkking2001]

D Dunki I think you're the projecting this "war" cause all you ever do is go around and shit on liberals in every single thread.
Demonize the left to all hell call them stupid and naive and when all is said and done you have never said anything postie about them from what I've seen.
Now do I think all of what I said is true....probably not....but instead of assuming you're a bad person I'm gonna to assume you're a good person instead of letting my impression of you run wild.

 

[Dunki]

D Dunki I think you're the projecting this "war" cause all you ever do is go around and shit on liberals in every single thread.
Demonize the left to all hell call them stupid and naive and when all is said and done you have never said anything postie about them from what I've seen.
Now do I think all of what I said is true....probably not....but instead of assuming you're a bad person I'm gonna to assume you're a good person instead of letting my impression of you run wild.

I do this mostly because I can not stand the hipocriscy of the left. Personally I am neither left nor right. I have my own opinions on differetn topics. But yes I am really upset when people argue how they are doing is justified because they are on the right side of history.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

If it's better then the worries, although valid, will ultimately be proven wrong. That would be great. It would be like the concerns I expressed post release about "F is for Family." I was grateful to be wrong about that show. But there's very obviously a new direction. Listen to the Vice President of Naughty Dog talk about it himself. Amy Hennig wouldn't be gone over creative differences without a new direction.

There's not much to this question, though. "What if things are good instead of bad?" Well then they'll be good, obviously. But enthusiast who closely follow the creators they like are gonna notice and react to red flags.

The things you mention are green flags to me.
I want to see the medium evolve. Grow out of its infancy and realize its potential as a story telling medium with massive cultural weight.
And I think TLoU2 will be the next step in that development. And obviously that will be controversial, because they will always be people unhappy with progress, especially the ones for whom it means losing their position of privilege. But that doesn't give validity to their discontent.
Moving away from straight, while, male being the default will rub some people the wrong and it should.
Equality feels like oppression to the privileged. Just like diversity feels like an agenda to the privileged.

It's just not literal. Pejoratives that work like this aren't anything new and I think everyone gets it. In certain circles "nice guy" is a pejorative. You could just as easily say that being a nice guy is positive and turning that around is dumb. I wouldn't, though, because I get it. The whole point is they're not actually nice guys and the whole point is they're not actually warriors for social justice. Even though both groups the pejorative addresses claim to be.

For my better understanding(because english isn't my first language and I have only seen "nice guys" in memes and in one LonelyIsland song:
Isn't "nice guy" usually used(when used in a negative way) for men who feel entitled to women's(sexual) attention simply because they are, by their own standards, "nice"? Or is it generally used for people who think they are nice when they actually aren't?

Anyway, the people who use "SJW" as an insult don't perceive what the "SJWs" do as a fight for social justice because they are ignorants towards the social justice issues the "SJWs" are raising.
Obviously, if you think that racism ceased to exist after MLK, you would have to think that further fighting for racial equality must be disingenuous.
Just like people who think that there is nothing wrong with how women are depicted in games and women and minorities are represented in games must think that Sarkeesians criticism has to be disingenuous.
Like, yeah, the bolded part is correct when you view it from their perspective, but the thing is that their perspective is wrong to begin with.

Just like far right anti refugee voters in Germany think that refugees will ruin Germany and bring crime and disease and they're all economic migrants anyway who aren't really in need of help and everyone should stay where they were born anyway. Yes, from that perspective, the people who stand up for these refugees seem to be in the wrong. But, like I said, the perspective is wrong.

It's regularly used by tons of people all across the political spectrum with the exception of far leftists. If you haven't noticed this then you might be in a bubble. The term has pretty much broken into the mainstream and It's more than likely here to stay. I'd really disabuse myself of the notion that it's cool to write off anyone who simply uses it if I were you. You're almost certainly writing off more decent people than you think.

If you count stuff like Fox News as mainstream you are right. But from my german perspective, Fox News is a far right propaganda channel, so I would expect them to use the term. Following their logic center right politicians like Angela Merkel are communists.

I have not seen in used in a serious ways in movies or reputable news outlets.

DUden seit 2000:

https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Gutmensch

Key here is "empfundener weise". So its not fact, but rather the perception of the person using the term.
Just like Hitler thought(perceived it) that the people who stood up against the killing of disabled people were wussies and didn't understand his logic behind it.

Wörter und Bedeutungen ändern sich. And Hitler used many words so we can not use any words Hitler has used? Like Arbeit? like Fleiß?

Context matters. Say Arbeit and Freiheit all you want, but say "Arbeit macht Frei" and we are looking at a different beast.
Hitler used the term Gutmensch to shut down moral concerns about his policies. And currently the far right is using the term to shut down(thankfully they are a minority and can't shut down anything) morality based arguments in the refugee debate.

Anita Sarkesian is what I call a scam artist. She and her lies are the reson the atmosphere has become very toxic and does not make normal convesations possible. She also stole material from Youtube which she then used in a way to lie about games and their perception, their mechanics, their goals all to fit her Agenda. What I would call Anita is not a SJW I call her an asshole who is all in for the money (AKA 35k for a discord server) And yes she takes money very seriously dand does everything to scam more out of stupid people.

How do you explain the fact that her arguments are very well received among many game developers? EA, Ubisoft, Sony. I mean, its hard to prove causality, but I think its pretty obvious that we already see the effects of the debate she started in games today. BF5, AC Odyssey, TLoU2.
Did the scam artist also fool all these publishers and studios?

As for the refugee point. Again it fits perfectly with the decription of the Duden. They are naive they do not think they do this to make themselves feel better. There is a realistically limit and Germany has already supassed this limit by far. But sure please tell my jewish friend why he can not walk around with his kippa anymore. The naivety and nazi calling in the begining was just ridiculous.

Germany has had record breaking budget surpluses for several consecutive years now.
The german economy is booming, with unemployment at such low levels that politicians talk about full employment(everything below 3%) again(iirc Merkels party had that as a goal in their most recent party paper for the 2017 election).
Wages are rising at the highest rates since reunification.
Crime rate is at a 25 year low, if you look at the crime rate relative to population size its even at its lowest point in 30years.
But yes, Germany has surpassed its limits and is on the brink of collapse. lol... talk about delusional.

 

[Darkking2001]

D Dunki You shouldn't let them get to you it only brings the overall conversation down.

@Myfellowleftist
Keep in mind being on the right side of history doesn't mean shit if you delay that future by making poor arguments to bring down the people you don't like.
The homophobia we see in this day and age is dog piss compared to the 90s most people who are homophobic nowadays are tame enough that even the most basic good faith argument can get to them.
But when you shit up a conversation with"your homophobic therefore you're wrong" You' are not arguing to change people or the world you're just trying to shout down to them.

 

[daibaron]

The antifas, sjw are no liberals, they want to forbid inofensive games like superseducer and censor games like kingdom come because there are no black people.
And progressives , what does that even mean? Just a fancy name to fool people, they could have used enlightened too so they could sound more modern and righteous. By Progressive they mean what? Basically something stupid like saying today im a woman and tomorrow a man - If and when you make up your mind let me know; or i want to go pee in wherever bathroom whenever i want to - lack of respect for others intimacy.

Trans and gays progressives, that is so old news. We had amanda lear in the 70s, famous and mainstream. Could have been a dude but at least had class and talent, certainly was no fat, ugly and blue haired lesbian.

Antifas, sjw are the same as old baader meinhoff, some fancy philosophy middle class warriors who want to turn the world into a comunist dictatorship. Its dejá vu all over again!

 

[Dunki]

Key here is "empfundener weise". So its not fact, but rather the perception of the person using the term.
Just like Hitler thought(perceived it) that the people who stood up against the killing of disabled people were wussies and didn't understand his logic behind it.

Context matters. Say Arbeit and Freiheit all you want, but say "Arbeit macht Frei" and we are looking at a different beast.
Hitler used the term Gutmensch to shut down moral concerns about his policies. And currently the far right is using the term to shut down(thankfully they are a minority and can't shut down anything) morality based arguments in the refugee debate.

Again context matter and words change its meaning When people aregure about SJW or Gutmensch they use this definition and it has nothing to do with Hitler. We had the same debate in Germany with the word Lager für These refugee camps. This debate about these defintion is jsut so you can be outraged about something you do not want to discuss.

How do you explain the fact that her arguments are very well received among many game developers? EA, Ubisoft, Sony. I mean, its hard to prove causality, but I think its pretty obvious that we already see the effects of the debate she started in games today. BF5, AC Odyssey, TLoU2.
Did the scam artist also fool all these publishers and studios?

HAve you seen what they are doing with people who disagree with modern Feminism? "Journalists" will lynch you. Just take a look at the Last Night and how they almost desroyed the developer because he features something in a fictional Universe because it did not fit with their Ideology. The moment you spoke and criticized Anita you got blacklisted by Journalists and villainized like Liza Kerner for example. If you as a developer are against modern feminism you are already a sexist, racist and even more. So Developer do not even have any chance to be against it. That is also why so many developer stayed silent during Gamergate. And oh yeah Battlefield V which again was used by journalists to go against anyone who was not 100 with them. The debate was NEVER about eww women in my video games. The debate was about the ridiculouness of the design when they said Battlefield will go back to the routes. This whole game feels like a fucking Michhael Bay Movie and a bad one in a fictional War setting. But yeah journalists made it about sexism and eww women in video games. So again. Everyone who criticized this methods is being villainized. As for Duckman he always was a Anita Sucker and I do not care if he is. WHAT I care most about is how they hand picked a obvious racist and hetrophobic guy as one of their actors.

Germany has had record breaking budget surpluses for several consecutive years now.
The german economy is booming, with unemployment at such low levels that politicians talk about full employment(everything below 3%) again(iirc Merkels party had that as a goal in their most recent party paper for the 2017 election).
Wages are rising at the highest rates since reunification.
Crime rate is at a 25 year low, if you look at the crime rate relative to population size its even at its lowest point in 30years.
But yes, Germany has surpassed its limits and is on the brink of collapse. lol... talk about delusional.

Yes and also there are more people under the poverty line then ever before. The education level is one of the worst in whole Europe. And this has also to do with mass immigration. We now have school which had a migration percentage of 90% in many schools. Classes and teaching on a high level is almost not possible anymore because of the language differences. Islam has now become a very visable thing on school yards. Boys telling girls what they are allowed to wear. Yewish children being threaten with death and so on. Another point would be the housing situation. How how you have to line up gfor hours to get a chance of a Kindergarten place. Or how refugees.

And than there is the the fact that these refugee have almost no chance here in Germany because of Language problems, the missing qualifications and so on. Also yeah its really great when refugeess families with 2 children have to live in places which are 15m² for years until they get a job. With these mass immigartions you are not helping anyone. What we need is a system like in Canada. Much fewer but with real integration and a future for these people.

It is not delusional it is naive to argue that we have the capacities when we can not even handle the ones we already have. And it does also not help that Turkish people who did come in the 90s still not integrated to the fact that many of them can not even speak German today.

Also to handle all children right now in a proper way we need over 200k of new teachers. Good luck finding them.

 

[Marshmallow]

no they are however making it a political propaganda have you even seen the video?

? There is nothing political in the trailer.

And while es we can decide what to buy and what not does also mena we can ctiticize Naughty Dog for it. We can criticize them for handpicking a racist and heterophobic asshole as one of their actors. You wat to force diversity like this? be my guest I do not sicne I do not want black, gay or trans characers I want characters who are black, gay trans etc. It should never be their mainpoint except in dating games.

Another one who think repeating "forced" somehow makes an argument.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

The antifas, sjw are no liberals, they want to forbid inofensive games like superseducer and censor games like kingdom come because there are no black people.

But all they do is criticize these games.
I have two reasons for not taking you seriously:
1. You used "sjw" unironically.
2. You obviously aren't a rational actor when you misrepresent criticism as censorship and moves to "forbid" games.

And progressives , what does that even mean? Just a fancy name to fool people, they could have used enlightened too so they could sound more modern and righteous. By Progressive they mean what?

Social progressivism has always been defined by individualization.
Moving away from the individual as part of group, where the individual consciousness aligns for the most part with the collective consciousness, to a society where individuals realize the full potential of their individuality, instead of defining themselves as part of a group/collective. (Be it nation, religion, race or whatever)

Unfortunately Jordan Peterson never talks about that aspect of Kant, Nietzsche and Freuds work. Doesn't quite fit his rather regressive narratives.

Basically something stupid like saying today im a woman and tomorrow a man - If and when you make up your mind let me know; or i want to go pee in wherever bathroom whenever i want to - lack of respect for others intimacy.
Trans and gays progressives, that is so old news. We had amanda lear in the 70s, famous and mainstream. Could have been a dude but at least had class and talent, certainly was no fat, ugly and blue haired lesbian.

Intolerance is not a virtue. Its makes you look insecure more than anything.

Antifas, sjw are the same as old baader meinhoff, some fancy philosophy middle class warriors who want to turn the world into a comunist dictatorship. Its dejá vu all over again!

Yeah, you seem like someone who understands things...

 

[Marshmallow]

That is not what is being discussed. On the other hand, just because a character in media is gay is not automatically cause for applause, that's silly tokenism and empty symbolism.

I think making an AAA game with a gay character (That unlike what many people here seem to imply isn't defined by her sexuality, since Elly isn't exactly what I'd call a flat character) is a courageus choice. The game already got banned in some countries!

But more importantly, why can't people accept hat some people may just want to write a story featuring a gay character in it as the protagonist?

 

[Dunki]

But all they do is criticize these games.
I have two reasons for not taking you seriously:
1. You used "sjw" unironically.
2. You obviously aren't a rational actor when you misrepresent criticism as censorship and moves to "forbid" games.

Excuse me? These so called Journalists have harassed Sony and co and asked over and over again why this game is being sold on their store. Just look how the whole steam situation paned out and how GAmes "journalists" tried to argue that it is good to censor games they and only they critize. And it does not help when they are fucking lying about games. And Its not only super seducer but comparing a scene in Castlevania 2 to a game like Rapelay. They called Steam out for not censoring what they do not like. They tried to ban a game lke Kingdome Come Deliverence and so on. FUCK games journalism.

Social progressivism has always been defined by individualization.
Moving away from the individual as part of group, where the collective consciousness aligns for the most part with the individual consciousness, to a society where individuals realize the full potential of their individuality.

Social progress is done by individualization yes but this is not what especially something like modern feminism is about. It is about a hivemind and constantly repreat phrases they have heard in their classes. Anita is the same by the way.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

The things you mention are green flags to me.

Openly bigoted employees is a green flag? Straw-manning and being openly hostile to fans is a green flag? Ditching Amy is a green flag?

Yeah... no.

Moving away from straight, while, male being the default will rub some people the wrong and it should.
Equality feels like oppression to the privileged. Just like diversity feels like an agenda to the privileged.

Well, for one, I'm not even white so why would I care? Maybe my criticisms are what I've actually said and not what you're trying to attribute to me? This supposed anger at moving away from the "straight, white, male default..." Maybe the literal hundreds of games I've played where you aren't a straight white male could confirm that's not a problem for me?

No, not hearing that? Just the same trite, cliche, platitudes? Just the same implications of secret bigoted motivation? Well, alright then...

...Grow out of its infancy and realize its potential as a story telling medium with massive cultural weight.

Yeah, because SJWs really know how to push a medium to its full potential. They're really soaring to new heights wherever they go lol.

Spoiler: A medium soaring to all new heights.

Yeah, that's self evidently not the case.

Like, yeah, the bolded part is correct when you view it from their perspective, but the thing is that their perspective is wrong to begin with.

So in your view no pejorative directed at the left is valid because the left is always correct? There's no segment of the left taking things too far and their just shouldn't be a word for it? Yeah dude you're in a bubble. There are absolutely people who claim that they're advocates of social justice but their view of "justice" is nothing that resembles its common conception.

 

[Windom Earle]

1. You used "sjw" unironically.

come on, we still doing this? What else do you want to be called instead of SJW?

 

[Dunki]

Openly bigoted employees is a green flag? Straw-manning and being openly hostile to fans is a green flag? Ditching Amy is a green flag?

Yeah... no.



Well, for one, I'm not even white so why would I care? Maybe my criticisms are what I've actually said and not what you're trying to attribute to me? This supposed anger at moving away from the "straight, white, male default..." Maybe the literal hundreds of games I've played where you aren't a straight white male could confirm that's not a problem for me?

No, not hearing that? Just the same trite, cliche, platitudes? Just the same implications of secret bigoted motivation? Well, alright then...



Yeah, because SJWs really know how to push a medium to its full potential. They're really soaring to new heights wherever they go lol.

Spoiler: A medium soaring to all new heights.

Yeah, that's self evidently not the case.



So in your view no pejorative directed at the left is valid because the left is always correct? There's no segment of the left taking things too far and their just shouldn't be a word for it? Yeah dude you're in a bubble. There are absolutely people who claim that they're advocates of social justice but their view of "justice" is nothing that resembles its common conception.

Some more

 

[Vampire On Titus]

But all they do is criticize these games.

No, what they do is not merely criticism. Criticism is simply an analysis of a work's quality "I felt this was bad" "this could have worked better" "it wasn't to my taste for such and such reason." What SJWs do is not merely criticism, it's moral condemnation. "This game is morally wrong because it's sexist and it's harming society" "This game is morally wrong because it's racist and normalizing bigoted views"

Comments like these rise above being merely criticisms. They are moral condemnations and they're a blatantly censorious when not calling for outright censorship. Which they often enough do. It's "Rap is morally wrong and making our kids degenerate," "Dungeons & Dragons is satanic and its destroying young minds." Not merely criticism.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

He's not wrong. This isn't controversial.

Changing established characters or pushing them into obscurity to push political or social issues will always be found upsetting to fans.

If Marvel introduced a brand new character into the MCU and that character was gay, I doubt the high majority of the audience would be upset. If they changed Tony Stark to be gay now, people would be upset.

 

[Windom Earle]

No, what they do is not merely criticism. Criticism is simply an analysis of a work's quality "I felt this was bad" "this could have worked better" "it wasn't to my taste for such and such reason." What SJWs do is not merely criticism, it's moral condemnation. "This game is morally wrong because it's sexist and it's harming society" "This game is morally wrong because it's racist and normalizing bigoted views"

Comments like these rise above being merely criticisms. They are moral condemnations and they're a blatantly censorious when not calling for outright censorship. Which they often enough do. It's "Rap is morally wrong and making our kids degenerate," "Dungeons & Dragons is satanic and its destroying young minds." Not merely criticism.

They have also mastered the art of brigading via social media. The same thing they always accuse the evil GG off. They aren't better, it's just the other extreme.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Dunki the comic you posted with Miles Morales is actually rebuking the SJW mentality. That's a strange example to pick because it's one of the rare times a Marvel comic fell on that side of the issue. Miles is saying "I dont want to be celebrated for being brown, I want to be celebrated for being spider-man, a good hero."

 

[Marshmallow]

No, what they do is not merely criticism. Criticism is simply an analysis of a work's quality "I felt this was bad" "this could have worked better" "it wasn't to my taste for such and such reason." What SJWs do is not merely criticism, it's moral condemnation. "This game is morally wrong because it's sexist and it's harming society" "This game is morally wrong because it's racist and normalizing bigoted views"

Like this?

Comments like these rise above being merely criticisms. They are moral condemnations and they're a blatantly censorious when not calling for outright censorship. Which they often enough do. It's "Rap is morally wrong and making our kids degenerate," "Dungeons & Dragons is satanic and its destroying young minds." Not merely criticism.

Maybe they should start using "forced" or "shoving down our throat" to disguise their opinions.

(Also, what do you plan to do to these people anyway? I don't think Anita's videos are well made, but she can do what she wants and I ignore her stuff because they don't interest me)

 

[Dunki]

Dunki the comic you posted with Miles Morales is actually rebuking the SJW mentality. That's a strange example to pick because it's one of the rare times a Marvel comic fell on that side of the issue. Miles is saying "I dont want to be celebrated for being brown, I want to be celebrated for being spider-man, a good hero."

Iposted this because it fits the current thinking of some people here as a concept how forced diversity looks for some people. MAybe I should have included that.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Like this?

That's the Whitehouse violence in video games reel, right? I don't get it, are you assuming I'm going to defend this? I'm not a Trump supporter. This is censorious bullshit and on far worse a scale than your garden variety SJW.

 

[Dunki]

That's the Whitehouse violence in video games reel, right? I don't get it, are you assuming I'm going to defend this? I'm not a Trump supporter. This is censorious bullshit and on far worse a scale than your garden variety SJW.

No not really when you already have people comparing Castlevania with this here and then wants the developer to cut the scene

In story mode, the player rapes the three women in the order of Manaka, Yuuko, and Aoi. The player starts off in the train station. Upon entering the train, the main character gropes the woman the main character is currently in the train with. After the main character finishes raping all three women, the players has the option of free play scenes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay

I'm sitting in a roundtable interview with a handful of journalists after having just spent more than an hour playing Lords of Shadow 2, the scene in question being one in which a withered Dracula stumbled toward a family with his arms outstretched, the camera abruptly switching to a first-person perspective. He kills the father outright, then grabs the mother and sinks his fangs into her neck, draining her life energy to restore his. 5

Sexualized imagery is nothing new in vampire fiction, but this scene is kind of stunning for how blatant it is with its allusions to rape. It's a scene that forcibly reminds me of the boxart from RapeLay, down to the woman protecting her child and the disembodied arms (your arms) reaching out from the camera. Regardless of the intentions in constructing the scene, the imagery is ghastly.

So while I applaud Cox and his team for their desire to take on challenging material, I really hope they cut the Family Scene before Lords of Shadow 2 launches next month. In the end, it's a scene that serves to trivialize sexual assault while failing to accomplish its attended goal -- making us feel like Dracula is awful and evil. We may feel that way in the moment, but ultimately, this scene and others like it are just a few drops in a sea of video game action set pieces. When it comes to characterization, one most certainly outweighs the other. 1

Normally, I prefer to give creators the benefit of the doubt. But in the current climate, in which allusions to rape and sexual assault in video game culture have sparked extremely contentious debate, Lords of Shadow 2 manages to come off as both insensitive and more than a little tone deaf. With that, I'm comfortable saying that it makes me uncomfortable. But despite Cox's pride in my saying so, I don't see that as a positive in the least.

https://www.usgamer.net/articles/yes-castlevania-lords-of-shadow-2-did-make-me-feel-uncomfortable-

And this was before labeled as a gamepreview

 

[Marshmallow]

That's the Whitehouse violence in video games reel, right? I don't get it, are you assuming I'm going to defend this? I'm not a Trump supporter. This is censorious bullshit and on far worse a scale than your garden variety SJW.

I just find funny that people are so "obsessed" with Anita and co. when the historically right-wing censorship has been much, MUCH worse. A lot of famous games straight up didn't make it for the most mundane reasons and you couldn't straight up create some stuff (Good luck making a game with a gay character in the 90! Or a game criticizing religion!). These days we don't get much censorship, most game make here without issues except some bizarre titty vita games (Which I don't think should be censored, but whatever) and some bizzare Nintendo censorship that I'm not sure why people necesarely blame on "SJW" . Overall, we have it pretty good!

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Excuse me? These so called Journalists have harassed Sony and co and asked over and over again why this game is being sold on their store.

Which is fair. Sony is responsible for whats on their store and the content reflects back on them.
Its like reporting racist people to their employers.

Just look how the whole steam situation paned out and how GAmes "journalists" tried to argue that it is good to censor games they and only they critize. And it does not help when they are fucking lying about games. And Its not only super seducer but comparing a scene in Castlevania 2 to a game like Rapelay. They called Steam out for not censoring what they do not like. They tried to ban a game lke Kingdome Come Deliverence and so on. FUCK games journalism.

You shouldn't just throw around terms like "banning" and "censorship".
If Sony or Steam don't put a game in their stores in response to criticism thats not censorship.
Censorship has to be ordered by the government. Everything else is simply the free market at work.

And how the fuck tried anyone to get Kingdom Come "banned", and what does that even mean?

Platform holders have always evaluated the content on their platforms, because games send messages and convey ideals, ideologies and perspectives and by providing a platform for these games they are partly responsible for the messages sent by the title.

Social progress is done by individualization yes but this is not what especially something like modern feminism is about. It is about a hivemind and constantly repreat phrases they have heard in their classes. Anita is the same by the way.

I am not denying that this kind of tumblr feminism has evolved into exactly this group focussed collectivism social progressivism wants to leave behind.
But if you claim that "modern feminism" as a whole is like that you need to show how the movement has regressed into collectivist movement and, most importantly, how this is reflected in their ideology.
You can't, because it isn't the case.

I am not familiar with the whole of Sarkeesians work, but her series on video games definitely stands on solid grounds. Its basic media effects theory. Nothing but an empirical and anecdotal collection of case studies.
How exactly is that collectivist and anti-individualist?

come on, we still doing this? What else do you want to be called instead of SJW?

I didn't say I don't want to be called "SJW". I said I can't take people seriously who use the term unironically.

What SJWs do is not merely criticism, it's moral condemnation.

Which is criticism. If the messages a games sends are deemed immoral, the criticism should reflect that.

Comments like these rise above being merely criticisms. They are moral condemnations and they're a blatantly censorious when not calling for outright censorship. Which they often enough do. It's "Rap is morally wrong and making our kids degenerate," "Dungeons & Dragons is satanic and its destroying young minds." Not merely criticism.

But these probably christian groups in question didn't censor anything. They called for the government to censor, because the government is the only actor that can censor.
I have never seen game journalists calling for anything like that.

 

[mckmas8808]

He's not wrong. This isn't controversial.

Changing established characters or pushing them into obscurity to push political or social issues will always be found upsetting to fans.

If Marvel introduced a brand new character into the MCU and that character was gay, I doubt the high majority of the audience would be upset. If they changed Tony Stark to be gay now, people would be upset.

He's not right either.

 

[Windom Earle]

I didn't say I don't want to be called "SJW". I said I can't take people seriously who use the term unironically.

Instead of just embracing the meme, people have invented this weird phrase of yours that shows just how offended they are. Not very smart.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

He's not right either.

What is not right about.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Which is criticism. If the messages a games sends are deemed immoral, the criticism should reflect that..

It's not merely criticism. I don't know how much clearer I could have spelled that distinction out. Your claim was "all they do is criticize games" No, that's not all they do.

But these probably christian groups in question didn't censor anything. They called for the government to censor, because the government is the only actor that can censor.
I have never seen game journalists calling for anything like that

No, that's not true. In fact it's dead wrong. Censorship is defined as "the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security." The government may be the only entity capable of prohibition. But several different entities are capable of suppression.

If you show up to a speaking event and use shouting and noise makers to drown out a invited guest speaker, rendering him unable to be heard, you are engaging in censorship. That's just one of many non-governmental forms censorship can take.

From the ACLU website "what is censorship?" :

Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are "offensive," happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. Censorship by the government is unconstitutional.

The idea that "only the government can censor" is just more far left bubble talk.