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[thelastword]

You're just repeating what I said the pro's of consoles were, but in more words. I said even playing field online (which you've talked about people using the same hardware) and I also mentioned a consoles ease of use as a benefit. Not sure what you're trying to achieve or if you misunderstood me, but basically I agree they are good points.

What I'm also saying is "to me" PC has a whole lot of other benefits that make it my platform of choice and that's ok.

I agree with you on the console side.....Then you say you favor PC and never mention anything about that......Why? It bodes well to list something on the PC side so we can get your perspective on your preferred platform.....Just keep it gaming related....

Pom, DoF, AO and many other features are left off from consoles in most games, or at least, substantially lowered. Pretty much 100% of console to pc ports, are played better on pc. PoM, DoF, AO, AA, And several other features come into play, as well as higher resolution, and higher framerate. Coming from 30fps to 60fps is a huge jump, but all of the added effects, larger resolution bump, AND all the other features, plus better framerate seal the deal completely.

He said consoles "can't do POM"...….I guess he's waiting on all these PS4 ports to come on PC with POM engaged, which will be good enough to make all these ports look better than Horizon Zero Dawn 2.....

Also I'm I blind? or do you see what I'm responding to...…..Sometimes with such responses, I really don't know...

There are many many more aspects of the hardware that just won't run on a console. POM is one such detail. It makes the game look significantly better when used - it was completely missing in all PS4/Pro games.

I wont even comment on his high rez textures bit, that's more or so VRAM related and let's be clear here, which games were referred to as Texture-Zilla in the PS3/360 era? UC Series.......For what it's worth I play on PC too.........PC games don't have better textures unless there's a huge texture patch, which is storage and pulled off the disk, filtering is better, but that's basically free and will be on upcoming consoles too...I played Gears 5; without ultra textures, absolutely horrid, with ultra textures only a bit better, so many low resolution textures in that game it was uncivilized. Sometimes I went into settings to see if it was disabled......So you see, when people go boasting about high rez textures, 4k textures, don't go believing it means nothing appreciable unless you play the games and see for yourself...…. Ultra textures on Gears can't hold a candle to an open world PS4 game (Horizon Zero Dawn)…...Farless Uncharted...…..One of the biggest boasts was 4k textures on Forza 7, absolutely horrid texturing near GTS...…..

You can boast of high rez textures, yet these textures are still plain and lack depth, but they are high rez, it means nothing...…...Just look at sand and ground textures in GT vs Forza...….So you can also say Sea of thieves has 4k textures or Crackdown has 4k textures, well what type of textures do they have? depth and detail, do they have complexity? or are they just greys and browns at high rez with no intricate detail......Yes you may be rendering at higher rez, but the texture is less complex....less detailed, less convincing....I can render Pong and say it has 4k textures too, does'nt mean it looks better or has higher detail and complexity....

 

[VFXVeteran]

I agree with you on the console side.....Then you say you favor PC and never mention anything about that......Why? It bodes well to list something on the PC side so we can get your perspective on your preferred platform.....Just keep it gaming related....

I prefer any game on the PC. I know what good graphics tech looks like. I also know what good art direction looks like.

He said consoles "can't do POM"...….I guess he's waiting on all these PS4 ports to come on PC with POM engaged, which will be good enough to make all these ports look better than Horizon Zero Dawn 2.....

My point was that every single game on the PC that has POM, doesn't equate to all of those games having POM for the PS4/X1X. Many games on the consoles did NOT have POM or tessellation enabled. I don't feel like going through every single game out there to prove my point. It's not worth the trouble.

HZD2 will have whatever additions to the engine they'll make and they'll have a new assets. We won't have to compare HZD on PC with HZD2 on PS5. We can just wait for the HZD2 on the PC and then compare. We can also compare the inevitable remakes of the PS4 games on PS5 and compare them directly with PC.

I wont even comment on his high rez textures bit, that's more or so VRAM related and let's be clear here, which games were referred to as Texture-Zilla in the PS3/360 era? UC Series.......For what it's worth I play on PC too.........PC games don't have better textures unless there's a huge texture patch, which is storage and pulled off the disk, filtering is better, but that's basically free and will be on upcoming consoles too...I played Gears 5; without ultra textures, absolutely horrid, with ultra textures only a bit better, so many low resolution textures in that game it was uncivilized. Sometimes I went into settings to see if it was disabled......So you see, when people go boasting about high rez textures, 4k textures, don't go believing it means nothing appreciable unless you play the games and see for yourself...…. Ultra textures on Gears can't hold a candle to an open world PS4 game (Horizon Zero Dawn)…...Farless Uncharted...…..One of the biggest boasts was 4k textures on Forza 7, absolutely horrid texturing near GTS...…..

You can boast of high rez textures, yet these textures are still plain and lack depth, but they are high rez, it means nothing...…...Just look at sand and ground textures in GT vs Forza...….So you can also say Sea of thieves has 4k textures or Crackdown has 4k textures, well what type of textures do they have? depth and detail, do they have complexity? or are they just greys and browns at high rez with no intricate detail......Yes you may be rendering at higher rez, but the texture is less complex....less detailed, less convincing....I can render Pong and say it has 4k textures too, does'nt mean it looks better or has higher detail and complexity....

Tired of arguing. We can just skip right to the real test.

Buy your PS5 with whatever TFLOPS it may have. I'll buy my 3080Ti. Starting with Godfall and any other PS port afterwards, we'll scope out DF to find the head-to-head graphics analysis. I can guarantee you that the PC will be ahead in graphics tech on every single 1st party exclusive. That will put a complete hole in your argument. This generation will not be in your favor with comparing an exclusive to every other multiplatform game out there. This time, the PC will have that 1st party title too -- proving that it can do ALL the tech behind the PS5 and more competing against a closed system and will STILL outperform it.

 

[Kenpachii]

Reasons why PC over Console

1) Easy upgrade
2) Always the performance u wanna get no matter what
3) no reliance on a company that can jank any game under your arse at any moment or deliver a half assed experience and nothing u can do about it.
4) better deals
5) endless lists of free games
6) RTS / MMO's exclusives that don't exist
7) Endless BC and better console versions of older games
8) More control options and far better controller options, mouse and keyboard are a absolute must.
9) Free internet with far more options then consoles offer even remotely
10) Able to fix games that can't be fixed on consoles, mods for witcher 3 like weight limit removal which actually makes the game playable
11) lots of old games that still have active community's like age of empire 2
12) Better visual quality on every level, no longer shitty AA, shitty looking blurred textures by no af, poppins etc.
13) better performance, honestly everything under 90 fps feels iffy to me
14) better MS, yea 4k on xbox one x = 30 ms 4k its laggy like hell
15) Not being handicapped by pissfilters u can't disable
16) Can use PC for far more
17) Far better for streaming content nobody wants to look at shitty quality streams with iffy microphones with nothing happening on stream
18) g-sync, can't deal without it anymore
19) shooters at 144 fps is the best thing ever, even higher then that if you can. Anything at 30-60 is janky as shit when it comes to fast shooters.


20) Multi monitors is the biggest god tier thing PC gaming has to offer at this point at the cost of nothing. left screen is a shitty 15 year old monitor and never needed a bigger one, right screen is a old 1080p benq 80 buck discount screen perfect for movies and video's. middle is 400 buck gsync 1080p 180hz screen. Nothing better then playing games and watching a serie while u are at it + checking forums and reaction without the need to interrupt on anything. For streaming a 4th with chat and your stream on it is even better.

21) PC gaming is cheap as shit.

Honestly my 10 year old PC i7 870 and 970 i bought for 190 bucks second handed, sold my old as shit card for 80 bucks added 110 bucks, with a shitty SSD of 80 bucks at the time holded me over the entire generation.

Total upgrade cost to make it next gen compatible.

500 bucks for 9900k ( 10 year old cpu cooler works fine dh-14, no need to buy a new one ).
150 bucks for high end motherboard
140 bucks for 32gb of ddr4 3200 memory
450 bucks for 1080ti 11gb v-ram ( second handed again with warranty, could have sold my 970 for a 100 but ended up keeping it to reduce the price )
512gb 3500/3300 SSD, 120 bucks

Total cost 1.360 euro.

And a godly PC as result.

Before people say lul 1360 euro that's way more then consoles.

A budget upgrade that does about 75% of that?

1070ti second handed = 190 bucks ( basically 1080 with 8gb of v-ram ) sold 970 for 90 bucks that's 100 bucks cost
CPU 170 bucks 3600 6 core cpu or 2700 150 bucks 8 core cpu.
Motherboard 80 bucks
70 bucks memory 16gb

Whooping 420 bucks.

Once u got the hardware and bought into it, PC gaming is cheap as shit to upgrade. As u already have everything else really.

 

[thelastword]

There wouldn't be an argument if you just said, "I prefer to have an exclusive game that won't show up anywhere else to justify my purchase". I'm ok with that, but don't try to say that the exclusive game "looks" better than anything the PC has because the developer somehow extracted some secret technology that can't be implemented or found on an arbitrary multiplatform game on the PC.

So I see what you want.....No wonder you are so bent over in wanting PS4 games to show up on PC to prove they will look better.....So in essence improved filtering and effects will make them look even better than next gen games right?

Veteran, no one said that what's accomplished on PS4 cant be done on PC...….The fact that no developer on PC impresses with visuals as console devs is the argument, especially when you boast of high end PC kit at a high price, it must grate you to no end, but it is what it is......You can't blame the best looking games for not being on PC and use that as an argument against them (only if it was on PC, I'd show them)…...Of course GTS would look better on PC at 4K with extra effects, but it would not be a world away...….Your argument is that any game with an ultra slider looks better is also wrong.....So saying any PC multiplat with sliders all moved to the right looks better than Sony games is wrong...…..Games don't look good based on how much processing power you can throw at it, they look good based on a combination of good tech, good art, good animation and design...….You need to understand that....

This is the crux of every single PC vs. console argument and has to stop. It's a completely unfair test because you are allowing the superior art direction of a game to give you false ammunition to say that it can't be done on a PC -- which is completely false.

You also need to stop saying what no one said......Nobody said PS4 games cant be done on PC.....Why don't you quote who said that...….We said based on the talent and what we have here before us......PS4 games look better......You want to make it about your PC has more bruteforce, but that's besides the point....These games are not on PC and they look better than PC games with sliders set to max.....They have better ATD, animations and even textures in many cases,,,,,,,And before you continue speaking about artstyle, like PS4 is only looking good because of artstyle, you are mistaken there as well...…..Shadowfall is not all about art, neither is 1886, DC, GOW, Days Gone, GTS and the list goes on...….These games are highly technical games, but they mix in great animation, great character models and consistent visual engineering to push a formidable image......You don't get that by just bruteforcing a senseless and taxing "smokeworks" or hairworks on an entire map...….The difference between PC games at Ultra and PS4 exclusives is that PS4 are properly visually engineered......Tech + High end Character Models + Top Animations + ATD......This is what wins best visuals

I'm saying that this generation will tell you the full story because the PC WILL be getting several 1st party PS exclusives and they will, guaranteed have better graphics features than the PS5/XSX. Your only defense will be "it doesn't look that much different" - which is a complete cop out move.

And I know that's what you're banking on, but nobody is saying GTS can't look better on PC, it will have better IQ and a few extra effects, but it will look the same...PS5 games will still blow all these PS4 to PC games out of the water....So SWWS will still be ahead.....

You can't tell in that image if it uses POM. At all.



LOU2 isn't out yet. GOW had no POM. UC4 didn't seem to have any either. You are going by dudes that don't have any experience in implementing those features in a development environment or have proven that they know the technical details of how to implement it. Those games could very well have normal mapping and/or a combination of displacement mapping.



I'll give you that one. But where is it in gameplay or is that just photo mode?



Fair enough. And YOU should take your own advice. You assume these guys that do the articles know what they are looking at (FACT factory) vs someone who's implemented these features for years. There are several games that I thought was using POM until I tested them and found that they were not.

You said consoles cant do POM, essentially pushing the angle that they are too weak to do what PC can...…..People don't care about potential, they care about what is.....PS4 can do POM, even multiplats and PS3 did POM...….In the same way, when people look at SWWS games they see the best looking games on their screen in motion......No amount of ultra settings make these games look better than LOU, UC, DC, GTS, because we have PC's too and we see these games on PC maxed...

And I know why you want to see these PS4 games come to PC, to prove to these meddling kids that Sony games can look better on PC, but again you are missing the forest from the trees....

 

[VFXVeteran]

So I see what you want.....No wonder you are so bent over in wanting PS4 games to show up on PC to prove they will look better.....So in essence improved filtering and effects will make them look even better than next gen games right?

Sure man.

Veteran, no one said that what's accomplished on PS4 cant be done on PC...….The fact that no developer on PC impresses with visuals as console devs is the argument, especially when you boast of high end PC kit at a high price, it must grate you to no end, but it is what it is......You can't blame the best looking games for not being on PC and use that as an argument against them (only if it was on PC, I'd show them)…...Of course GTS would look better on PC at 4K with extra effects, but it would not be a world away...….Your argument is that any game with an ultra slider looks better is also wrong.....So saying any PC multiplat with sliders all moved to the right looks better than Sony games is wrong...…..Games don't look good based on how much processing power you can throw at it, they look good based on a combination of good tech, good art, good animation and design...….You need to understand that....

If we are talking about subjective graphics, then there is no need to argue here. There will never be a fair comparison.

You also need to stop saying what no one said......Nobody said PS4 games cant be done on PC.....Why don't you quote who said that...….We said based on the talent and what we have here before us......PS4 games look better......You want to make it about your PC has more bruteforce, but that's besides the point....These games are not on PC and they look better than PC games with sliders set to max.....They have better ATD, animations and even textures in many cases,,,,,,,And before you continue speaking about artstyle, like PS4 is only looking good because of artstyle, you are mistaken there as well...…..Shadowfall is not all about art, neither is 1886, DC, GOW, Days Gone, GTS and the list goes on...….These games are highly technical games, but they mix in great animation, great character models and consistent visual engineering to push a formidable image......You don't get that by just bruteforcing a senseless and taxing "smokeworks" or hairworks on an entire map...….The difference between PC games at Ultra and PS4 exclusives is that PS4 are properly visually engineered......Tech + High end Character Models + Top Animations + ATD......This is what wins best visuals

I don't have to search for a quote. It's written all over the posts. It's been that way for years and years. Look at how desparate you guys are to find out the TFLOP number. It's frankly hilarious! None of those games you mentioned used any advanced tech. LIke at all. Again you are trying to make one studio better than another as the means to justify the silly assumptions. And yet again, they will disappear completely this generation.

And I know that's what you're banking on, but nobody is saying GTS can't look better on PC, it will have better IQ and a few extra effects, but it will look the same...PS5 games will still blow all these PS4 to PC games out of the water....So SWWS will still be ahead.....

OK.

You said consoles cant do POM, essentially pushing the angle that they are too weak to do what PC can...…..People don't care about potential, they care about what is.....PS4 can do POM, even multiplats and PS3 did POM...….

What you are saying is silly compared to what I'm trying to get at. You are saying that this particular feature can be implemented on a PS4 even if no other feature is included. Of course. If I had a low res 512k texture to use to do POM but I lower the resolution to 1080p and keep a target of 30FPS, I've proven that the PS can do POM.

Here's my point. Try to run every feature at it's maximum that you know *could* be used in a game and you will quickly find that features have to be subtracted. In all the games that the PC is running (multiplatform) POM, there is something else in the game on console that needs to be disabled to reach an approximate parity performance. Lowering the texture size, reducing the shadow resolution, or sticking with the crude SSAO as opposed to the HBAO+ means the console is too weak for prime time. Period.

We will see soon though..

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Veteran, no one said that what's accomplished on PS4 cant be done on PC...….
You also need to stop saying what no one said......Nobody said PS4 games cant be done on PC.....Why don't you quote who said that...….

Hmmm...

PC will always have higher spec, with which you will need much more money...…The games won't be better on higher spec, they won't have better AI, they won't look different visually, they won't have more expansive worlds etc.....they will just run faster or at higher resolutions...…

Stating in a definitive manner that something will not be better when on something else sure sounds like saying that it can't do it....

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

He never said it wasn't better. I got out of his comment the bolded part of what you said

I was specifically addressing this where he literally did say that....

...…The games won't be better on higher spec

gameplay it's all the same.......

All of the things I listed are things that enhance the gameplay while I actually play and make the game better for me. Both subjectively and objectively.

We should also try to keep console vs PC talk in this thread.

 

[thelastword]

I prefer any game on the PC. I know what good graphics tech looks like. I also know what good art direction looks like.

Yet you just said this is subjective in another thread......At least it's not just Sony fanboys saying PS games look best.....The industry has been giving Sony games best visuals for years ongoing......

My point was that every single game on the PC that has POM, doesn't equate to all of those games having POM for the PS4/X1X. Many games on the consoles did NOT have POM or tessellation enabled. I don't feel like going through every single game out there to prove my point. It's not worth the trouble.

No need to change the argument, you conclusively said, there was not a single game with POM on PS4/PRO...……Even PS3 games had POM.....You're just trying to prop PC way too much and denigrate console......In essence, the PC master race meme....There's no need to prove to anyone that a PC port of a PS4 game will look better on PC......Will the PS4 version look like PONG in comparison, no, they would look similar with the rez and framerate flourishes that PC brings...….Does tombraider look like a different game on PC, NO......

HZD2 will have whatever additions to the engine they'll make and they'll have a new assets. We won't have to compare HZD on PC with HZD2 on PS5. We can just wait for the HZD2 on the PC and then compare. We can also compare the inevitable remakes of the PS4 games on PS5 and compare them directly with PC.

You don't want to talk about LOU2 having POM, when demos have already been shown and Gaming Bolt confirms in their tech analysis, UC4 had POM, so it makes sense that LOU2 would have it as well.... but you are going in with HZD and HZD2 on PC...….Have these games been officially announced for PC? As I said, I have no interest in comparing HZD1 PC vs HZD PS4...…..That part is all you.....I never said anything about HZD on PC...…All of that HZD on PC is you.....

Buy your PS5 with whatever TFLOPS it may have. I'll buy my 3080Ti. Starting with Godfall and any other PS port afterwards, we'll scope out DF to find the head-to-head graphics analysis. I can guarantee you that the PC will be ahead in graphics tech on every single 1st party exclusive. That will put a complete hole in your argument. This generation will not be in your favor with comparing an exclusive to every other multiplatform game out there. This time, the PC will have that 1st party title too -- proving that it can do ALL the tech behind the PS5 and more competing against a closed system and will STILL outperform it.

Are you saying that all PS games will be on PC? "and saying if that is the case" that I'm saying they won't look better on PC? Veteran, you are banking on a lot of rumors and assumptions......I never said having a game on higher spec won't look better......I only said we have many high spec PC's now but console games still look better on 1.84TF.....Don't put words in people's mouths …..

Anyways a blast from the past....Console games at 1.84TF have tech too......Whowouldathunkit....
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/so-driveclubs-new-added-tech.1139870/

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

I was specifically addressing this where he literally did say that....





All of the things I listed where things that enhance the gameplay while I actually play and make the game better for me. Both subjectively and objectively.

We should also try to keep console vs PC talk in this thread.

If you consider fps part of gameplay that's your thing but I interpreted it as the actual gameplay of what you're shooting and how many hits it takes and the level designs and how fast the character runs and stuff like that. Nothing about HOW you play the game changes. It just looks smoother.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

If you consider fps part of gameplay that's your thing but I interpreted it as the actual gameplay of what you're shooting and how many hits it takes and the level designs and how fast the character runs and stuff like that. Nothing about HOW you play the game changes. It just looks smoother.

Those are game mechanics. Different from gameplay. Gameplay is the combination of everything that is in a game including the mechanics that someone enjoys. Or hates in some cases lol.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Those are game mechanics. Different from gameplay. Gameplay is the combination of everything that is in a game including the mechanics that someone enjoys. Or hates in some cases lol.

To me a framerate is like a particle effect. It could improve the experience, albeit in a different way, for someone just like framerate could for you. For instance I never got sick playing doom so the framerate didn't effect me at all. Just like how some people are light sensitive and have to tone down the brightness

 

[Lupin3]

 

[Ruben43cb]

I have a one x and ps4 pro. I will get the new consoles but I am very excited for the 20TF+ PC cards and what they will allow. I plan to build a new PC late 2020 for that

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

To me a framerate is like a particle effect. It could improve the experience, albeit in a different way, for someone just like framerate could for you. For instance I never got sick playing doom so the framerate didn't effect me at all. Just like how some people are light sensitive and have to tone down the brightness

Better graphics and fps absolutely do change how I play though. Especially in fps's. Like I said before with Doom. I went from headaches and eye strain which caused me to be slower in my gameplay to zipping through having much more fun with better overall graphics.

And for another example, in the Witcher, I've found myself enjoying the world FAR more than I ever did on console. Stable framerate, WAY better visuals, draw distance, lighting (mods), etc. All of these things have caused me to play the game much differently than I did on console and this has to do with immersion. I've found that when I am better immersed, due to a better looking game world because I cranked the settings up, I play way differently.

The point is, that it is both objective and subjective at the same time when you are taking a game into account depending on what you are trying to compare it to. A game can both be objectively better looking than it's counterpart on console and subjectively better looking than a random game on PC that outdoes it objectively techwise. And because of this, opinions are going to differ wildly when it comes to comparing games that don't have PC counterparts.

Don't get me mistaken, I am not trying to do a gotcha to console gamers, I love consoles and if I ever have the extra cash I will most likely get an xbox for the living room for freinds and familly to abuse since I have a library built up there from years ago and because of gamepass. I'm of the mind that consoles have a great place in the home along with PC's, especially for people with famillies.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Better graphics and fps absolutely do change how I play though. Especially in fps's. Like I said before with Doom. I went from headaches and eye strain which caused me to be slower in my gameplay to zipping through having much more fun with better overall graphics.

And for another example, in the Witcher, I've found myself enjoying the world FAR more than I ever did on console. Stable framerate, WAY better visuals, draw distance, lighting (mods), etc. All of these things have caused me to play the game much differently than I did on console and this has to do with immersion. I've found that when I am better immersed, due to a better looking game world because I cranked the settings up, I play way differently.

The point is, that it is both objective and subjective at the same time when you are taking a game into account depending on what you are trying to compare it to. A game can both be objectively better looking than it's counterpart on console and subjectively better looking than a random game on PC that outdoes it objectively techwise.

Don't get me mistaken, I am not trying to do a gotcha to console gamers, I love consoles and if I ever have the extra cash I will most likely get an xbox for the living room for freinds and familly to abuse since I have a library built up there from years ago and because of gamepass. I'm of the mind that consoles have a great place in the home along with PC's, especially for people with famillies.

Sounds like it is subjective if it's how you experience it. Like I've never gotten a headache from a low framerate

 

[thelastword]

Sure man.

That's exactly right

If we are talking about subjective graphics, then there is no need to argue here. There will never be a fair comparison.

It's not even about being subjective and going on an artstyle tangent, you look at a game and one looks better, simple. Rarely do you see people going Zelda looks better than UC4, because that's not true......So we are talking tech, how well the engineers can mimic realistic graphics, that's normally the standard.....Apart from that pretty much every year Sony games win best visuals from many award outlets...….

I don't have to search for a quote. It's written all over the posts. It's been that way for years and years. Look at how desparate you guys are to find out the TFLOP number. It's frankly hilarious! None of those games you mentioned used any advanced tech. LIke at all. Again you are trying to make one studio better than another as the means to justify the silly assumptions. And yet again, they will disappear completely this generation.

Because there is no quote, and no one is saying PC is not more powerful, everyone is saying PC is not being utilized......PC has had 14 TF for more than a minute......The 2080ti is 15TF right? What games have been done ground up on a 15TF GPU and a 9900KS? Zilch.....

All of the games I spoke of used impressive tech.…..To this day, Shadowfall is still one of the most impressive games I have seen this gen, the effects, the tech is still bonkers...…..COD is still not doing things Shadowfall did in 2013.....You are just convinced in your mind that console games look impressive only because of artstyle…….Consoles have great looking realistic visuals and they also have games like Gravity Rush, that have great artstyle and tech, like Gravity Rush and Concrete Genie.....Horizon, DC and GTS are all tech showcases in their respective genres...…..So if you go genre by genre and SWWS has a game in it, it will win on visuals...…..Again, visual engineering trumps all.

What you are saying is silly compared to what I'm trying to get at. You are saying that this particular feature can be implemented on a PS4 even if no other feature is included. Of course. If I had a low res 512k texture to use to do POM but I lower the resolution to 1080p and keep a target of 30FPS, I've proven that the PS can do POM.

Here's my point. Try to run every feature at it's maximum that you know *could* be used in a game and you will quickly find that features have to be subtracted. In all the games that the PC is running (multiplatform) POM, there is something else in the game on console that needs to be disabled to reach an approximate parity performance. Lowering the texture size, reducing the shadow resolution, or sticking with the crude SSAO as opposed to the HBAO+ means the console is too weak for prime time. Period.

We will see soon though..

You said PS4/PRO cant do POM and now you are trying to proive they can do POM, what? Veteran you are shifting goal posts faster than a pigeon drops with a laxative induction......You are hilarious......For your sake if GTS comes to PC, it will still look like GTS on PS4, it wont look like GT1 on PS1......Farcry 5 still looks like Farcry 5 on console and PC, they don't look like different games....

Hmmm...

Stating in a definitive manner that something will not be better when on something else sure sounds like saying that it can't do it....

Are you crossposting? And I'm still saying the same thing in this thread.....

And I know that's what you're banking on, but nobody is saying GTS can't look better on PC, it will have better IQ and a few extra effects, but it will look the same...PS5 games will still blow all these PS4 to PC games out of the water....So SWWS will still be ahead.....

I don't change my tune.....The games will still look the same visually with higher rez and frames....You wont think GTS is GT7 now or Horizon Zero Dawn is part 2 in visual complexity vs the PS4 version, better AF, higher rez wont do that......COD on PC and PS4 look the same, one just has higher rez and frames as a primary, the tech and visuals are the same......More so, my main point was that in what you quoted was that the experience of playing is the same, same enemies, same Ai, same visual feedback...….In essence, Forza 7 on a RX 570 and Forza 7 on a 2080ti still looks the same....Its the same game.....

Veteran has said that HZD1 on PC will look better than HZD2 on PS5, just that HZD1 looks like shit now because it's on PS4, but when it gets on PC, it will look bonkers.....

 

[zcaa0g]

The PC has more realistically playable genres, a vastly larger library, vastly superior backwards compatibilty, the ability to emulate other game platforms and vastly larger and superior game controller options.

The only thing the consoles have over the PC is hockey, since The Show is coming to the PC and a handful of exclusives and there are only a handful that are in the very good to great category.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Sounds like it is subjective if it's how you experience it. Like I've never gotten a headache from a low framerate

You can say that it is subjective that it makes the game better for me. You can't say that it is subjective that it has a better framerate.

Me being able to experience objectively better graphics when on high settings compared to low is not subjective either.

When you state in an objective manner that a game won't be better on something else, that it won't have better x and y.... It sounds a lot like you are saying it objectively can't, not that it subjectively can't.

If he want's to come clear up whether he was being subjective or not in everything he was saying then I will concede. But objectively, yes, PC should have objectively better graphics/fps etc if the devs are doing it right. If they don't want to or don't have the chops and they do a straight port with an fps lock, well then that's on them if they don't want to utilize all the extra power. Doesn't change the fact that if they did utilize it, it would have objectively better graphics that people would objectively be able to experience that could subjectively enhance their experience if that's their thing.

What I think is going on here with the poster concerned is a whole lot of subjective hyperbole.

 

[thelastword]

Sounds like it is subjective if it's how you experience it. Like I've never gotten a headache from a low framerate

It's like when people say, they can't game at unlocked framerates, when we've been doing this for years....The COD games on 360 used to hit the 40's often. nobody cared..Did people really know how NES games run or N64 games? We become so focused on numbers as tech evolves, when it's the gaming experience that's the most important thing.....Do I want to experience Days Gone at all or do I sit in a corner pining that's It's not 60fps on PC....I'd rather experience days gone.

Tbh, I can understand preferences, but what I could never understand is how people pretend their standards are so high and their toleration levels so low...….We are all gamers here and no matter what system you have, the game is the game...…It's the same way people say....I cant play 30fps games, I always feel these are just dishonest jabs to prop the system they had and favored at the time......In as much as people say I'm a Sony fan, I have never said I cant play with a XBOX controller, yet some people think the symmetrical DS4 for their naturally symmetrical hands is unplayable.....Most of the time it's just dishonesty at best......

I think PC has it's PROs of course, but without consoles, I'm really trying to figure out what the gaming landscape would be......If anything, I would love for PC to adopt it's 90's, early 2000 roots again, but it's not been the same...….In as much as I love tech and GPU's, content is king and PC used to be a stalwart for really unique and exclusive content.....So if all you want to do is run old PS4 games at 4k on your PC on a 3080ti, you're not thinking big enough......If these games are ported, I don't think a 3080ti with an intel 11000K will have much issue running it, but is that the boast you want to make after spending all this money.....That is essentially the crux of the matter....

The PC has more realistically playable genres, a vastly larger library, vastly superior backwards compatibilty, the ability to emulate other game platforms and vastly larger and superior game controller options.

The only thing the consoles have over the PC is hockey, since The Show is coming to the PC and a handful of exclusives and there are only a handful that are in the very good to great category.

It also has many games that I buy on PC that does not load, that I have to go download files for, and play with config files...….That have many incompatible issues, crashes galore and so much more.....Of course some games have no issues, but sometimes the game you want to play, you feel, let me get a fix and you've just spent two hours because it wont load or you are tinkering and searching for fixes online......PC gaming can be more tiring and after a while you tend to boot less games, it doesn't matter whether you have 3080ti or a GTX 730......if the game you want to play won;t load it won't.....With consoles they work guaranteed....I could load up my PS2 right now and GT4 will boot no problem......Guaranteed...

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

You can say that it is subjective that it makes the game better for me. You can't say that it is subjective that it has a better framerate.

Me being able to experience objectively better graphics when on high settings compared to low is not subjective either.

When you state in an objective manner that a game won't be better on something else, that it won't have better x and y.... It sounds a lot like you are saying it objectively can't, not that it subjectively can't.

If he want's to come clear up whether he was being subjective or not in everything he was saying then I will concede. But objectively, yes, PC should have objectively better graphics/fps etc if the devs are doing it right. If they don't want to or don't have the chops and they do a straight port with an fps lock, well then that's on them if they don't want to utilize all the extra power. Doesn't change the fact that if they did utilize it, it would have objectively better graphics that people would objectively be able to experience that could subjectively enhance their experience if that's their thing.

What I think is going on here with the poster concerned is a whole lot of subjective hyperbole.

But nobody has said the graphics aren't better on PC. The only thing disputed is how that effects things

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

But nobody has said the graphics aren't better on PC. The only thing disputed is how that effects things

Bro, I really don't want to go in circles and waist all of our time. So one last time, this is what was said.

The games won't be better on higher spec, they won't have better AI, they won't look different visually, they won't have more expansive worlds etc.....

Not trying to be hostile man but how else am I supposed to interpret that? If a game has better graphics it will objectively look different...

 

[zcaa0g]

It's like when people say, they can't game at unlocked framerates, when we've been doing this for years....The COD games on 360 used to hit the 40's often. nobody cared..Did people really know how NES games run or N64 games? We become so focused on numbers as tech evolves, when it's the gaming experience that's the most important thing.....Do I want to experience Days Gone at all or do I sit in a corner pining that's It's not 60fps on PC....I'd rather experience days gone.

Tbh, I can understand preferences, but what I could never understand is how people pretend their standards are so high and their toleration levels so low...….We are all gamers here and no matter what system you have, the game is the game...…It's the same way people say....I cant play 30fps games, I always feel these are just dishonest jabs to prop the system they had and favored at the time......In as much as people say I'm a Sony fan, I have never said I cant play with a XBOX controller, yet some people think the symmetrical DS4 for their naturally symmetrical hands is unplayable.....Most of the time it's just dishonesty at best......

I think PC has it's PROs of course, but without consoles, I'm really trying to figure out what the gaming landscape would be......If anything, I would love for PC to adopt it's 90's, early 2000 roots again, but it's not been the same...….In as much as I love tech and GPU's, content is king and PC used to be a stalwart for really unique and exclusive content.....So if all you want to do is run old PS4 games at 4k on your PC on a 3080ti, you're not thinking big enough......If these games are ported, I don't think a 3080ti with an intel 11000K will have much issue running it, but is that the boast you want to make after spending all this money.....That is essentially the crux of the matter....

It also has many games that I buy on PC that does not load, that I have to go download files for, and play with config files...….That have many incompatible issues, crashes galore and so much more.....Of course some games have no issues, but sometimes the game you want to play, you feel, let me get a fix and you've just spent two hours because it wont load or you are tinkering and searching for fixes online......PC gaming can be more tiring and after a while you tend to boot less games, it doesn't matter whether you have 3080ti or a GTX 730......if the game you want to play won;t load it won't.....With consoles they work guaranteed....I could load up my PS2 right now and GT4 will boot no problem......Guaranteed...

Some games have no issues? I have over 1300 games installed on Steam, not just available. Same for a large number of games across GoG, Origin, uPlay and old DVD titles that I packaged up for automated installs.

My experience for those numbers is some games have issues and the majority of those are older games. And even that has been mitigated to a degree by newer games being more than a capable substitute with far better graphics.

Consoles also stop getting manufactured at some point and eventually get harder to find.

I currently have the Wii U, Switch, PS3, PS4, XBOX 360 and XBX all hooked up, but my overall experience has been just as pleasant with the PC, but with far more flexibility.

It's high time consoles go all in and natively support mouse and keyboards for gaming also. Not as a requirement but as an option, the same options, I have on thr PC platform.

 

[Shangounchained]

What is a PC?
That is the question a pc simplu means personal computer so consoles are personal computers with a fixed spec.

And conventional personal computers dont have a fixed spec they range from complete rubbish to climate simulators.

1. So first of all hate it or love it, you can push more when designing games on consoles than you can do when designing on a range of personal computers with a range of specs and hardware

2. Consoles have all the best exclusives especially sony and nintendo and only microsofts decision to port xbox to conventional pcs has saved pc gaming big time, last of the mohicans in pc exclusives was crysis.

3. Price and graphics diminishing returns. As weve seen this gen 300$ consoles still give a fight against super computers the gap in graphics isnt the same as it used to bk in 360/ps3 vs pc days nowadays difference is resolutions and frame rates with raytraced puddles and depth of field toggles and as next gen consoles are coming pcs wouldnt be necessary for gaming. The gap will be blurry.

4. Solution.... Make high end pc exclusives to save pc gaming otherwise less and less people will buy 2000$+ pc parts to design super computers that simply play console ports at 2000 fps and in case your of those people then get another hobby be a film producer or game/graphics designer cause unless theres another crysis type exclusives out there then its pointless.

 

[Shangounchained]

Bro, I really don't want to go in circles and waist all of our time. So one last time, this is what was said.



Not trying to be hostile man but how else am I supposed to interpret that? If a game has better graphics it will objectively look different...

The game was designed to run on consoles with 5.6 gb of ram, the base code and all the assets are designed around 5.6 gb doesnt matter if your pc can simulate global warming it wont make 5.6gb of assets look significantly better itll simply add a bit of shine with resolutions and send that 5.6gb on screen faster with fps that is all.

 

[Shangounchained]

Ton

There wouldn't be an argument if you just said, "I prefer to have an exclusive game that won't show up anywhere else to justify my purchase". I'm ok with that, but don't try to say that the exclusive game "looks" better than anything the PC has because the developer somehow extracted some secret technology that can't be implemented or found on an arbitrary multiplatform game on the PC. This is the crux of every single PC vs. console argument and has to stop. It's a completely unfair test because you are allowing the superior art direction of a game to give you false ammunition to say that it can't be done on a PC -- which is completely false.

I'm saying that this generation will tell you the full story because the PC WILL be getting several 1st party PS exclusives and they will, guaranteed have better graphics features than the PS5/XSX. Your only defense will be "it doesn't look that much different" - which is a complete cop out move.




You can't tell in that image if it uses POM. At all.



LOU2 isn't out yet. GOW had no POM. UC4 didn't seem to have any either. You are going by dudes that don't have any experience in implementing those features in a development environment or have proven that they know the technical details of how to implement it. Those games could very well have normal mapping and/or a combination of displacement mapping.



I'll give you that one. But where is it in gameplay or is that just photo mode?



Fair enough. And YOU should take your own advice. You assume these guys that do the articles know what they are looking at (FACT factory) vs someone who's implemented these features for years. There are several games that I thought was using POM until I tested them and found that they were not.

Tonnes of conaole games have pom and god of war does actually you can see it when playing and even digital foundry went over it, days gone has pom you can either play the game or watch digital foundries take on it, rdr 2 has pom and tesselation on console, god of war has pom and tesselation, literally tesselation and pom is an overused tech its not expensive as it used to be in nvidia demos, tesselation is used aonce the ps3 and 360 era all those ocean shaders waves are all tesselated vertex shaders the snow in rdr2, god of war, tomb raider, froza horizon is tesselated for gods sake even sega rally on xbox 360 had tesselated tire tracks, motocross madness arcade had tesselated tire tracks, on 360 grand turismo 6 on ps3 has adaptive tesselation, the 360 had hardware tesselation on its gpu and tesselation is more expensive than pom so ur actually looking ridiculous with how ur undermining consoles.

They use tesselation not just for visual appeal but to also budget vram, tesselation helps you save vram because you dont have to load a huge data set of polygons instead you only generate more polys the closer you get to an object or if necessary hence why its overly used.

They even used realtime raymarching to render volumetric clouds on ps3 in .war hawk

 

[petran79]

Most console developers started on computers in the 80s-90s and then moved to consoles during the early 2000 era with Xbox and PlayStation. The word console up till then meant 90% Japanese games.

 

[Elektro Demon]

I love these warring threads. There's so much entertainment to be had by reading this.

I'll offer my 2 cents.

I think pc's are better. Why? Because several reasons.
-better graphics
-more customizable
-sooooooooo much more flexible then a console
-superior experience in every game (mods, hacks, customization)
-emulators
-superior controls for fps games. M/kb is just the best way to play fps games.
-the ability to connect a controller for action games or just games that play better on a controller
-scalability (if you have a low end rig, set your settings on medium or low/ vice versa)
-games are cheaper. (this really pays off in the long run)
-recording gameplay is insanely better on the pc (sooo many options to choose from, relive, OBS, Fraps, Dxtory, shadowplay etc)
- control customization (example, let's say you dislike toggle aim. You click RT and aim down sights, and you have to click RT again to exit aim. Now, on a console, you just have to live with it, but on pc you can fix that with either third party scripts or tweaking the game's ini file)
-free multiplayer (just pay your ISP bill and that's it. No ps plus subscription or any other nonsense)

Consoles do offer some advantages too. Ease of use is the main one. But games are more expensive, you have to pay another fee to access multiplayer, no customization, inferior graphics etc.

 

[nani17]

You want me a god to interact with these lower being.

 

[Orta]

As a pc gamer who hasn't really played consoles since the ps2/xbox gen I've been pretty shocked when I've dipped my toe into the current gen. Game patches, os updates, subscription based online gaming, dlc, microtransactions, gaming headsets, etc, etc. Exactly the kind of stuff console gamers used to beat us with.

There isn't *that* much of a difference between it and pc gaming nowadays and those who bang on about the convenience of console gaming, I must be missing something because its no more or no less convenient than playing a game on a pc.

Apart from us having much better performance

 

[VFXVeteran]

You don't want to talk about LOU2 having POM, when demos have already been shown and Gaming Bolt confirms in their tech analysis, UC4 had POM, so it makes sense that LOU2 would have it as well.... but you are going in with HZD and HZD2 on PC...….Have these games been officially announced for PC? As I said, I have no interest in comparing HZD1 PC vs HZD PS4...…..That part is all you.....I never said anything about HZD on PC...…All of that HZD on PC is you.....

How do you know that those gameplay clips weren't done on a PC? That's all I'll say about that.

Veteran, you are banking on a lot of rumors and assumptions......I never said having a game on higher spec won't look better......I only said we have many high spec PC's now but console games still look better on 1.84TF.....Don't put words in people's mouths …..

OR - facts that I've heard from the industry that you don't know about.

 

[TLZ]

those who bang on about the convenience of console gaming, I must be missing something because its no more or no less convenient than playing a game on a pc.

Do you guys intentionally ignore the big difference in prices? What's easier, buying a ready plug and play $400-500 console, or a shittyass PC for the same price, that's not plug and play and needs a lot of fiddling with? It's obvious what most would go for.

 

[VFXVeteran]

I don't change my tune.....The games will still look the same visually with higher rez and frames....You wont think GTS is GT7 now or Horizon Zero Dawn is part 2 in visual complexity vs the PS4 version, better AF, higher rez wont do that......COD on PC and PS4 look the same, one just has higher rez and frames as a primary, the tech and visuals are the same......More so, my main point was that in what you quoted was that the experience of playing is the same, same enemies, same Ai, same visual feedback...….In essence, Forza 7 on a RX 570 and Forza 7 on a 2080ti still looks the same....Its the same game.....

Veteran has said that HZD1 on PC will look better than HZD2 on PS5, just that HZD1 looks like shit now because it's on PS4, but when it gets on PC, it will look bonkers.....

No. I said it *could* look better and I stand by that. HZD2 on PS5 will have what exactly that will make it look a generation ahead of HZD? If you say that a platform looks the same with just higher res and faster FPS, why not apply that assumption to PS4->PS5?

And you have changed your tune. You are basically stating that the only way you can tell a difference in visuals is if two games are different as opposed to making the comparison with the same game. So I guess that means the PS4 versions of the PS5 games will only differ in res and FPS.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Do you guys intentionally ignore the big difference in prices? What's easier, buying a ready plug and play $400-500 console, or a shittyass PC for the same price, that's not plug and play and needs a lot of fiddling with? It's obvious what most would go for.

If you are only going to buy a PC strictly for gaming, then yea, it's better to buy a console. But most of us buy a PC for other reasons.

 

[TLZ]

If you are only going to buy a PC strictly for gaming, then yea, it's better to buy a console. But most of us buy a PC for other reasons.

Of course. But check the quote I was responding to.

 

[PropellerEar]

OR - facts that I've heard from the industry that you don't know about.

Give us the facts then, stop attention whoring or self elevating yourself with supposed rumours and speculations.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Of course. But check the quote I was responding to.

Yea, he's not understanding that the console IS more convenient with regards to playing games. I'm with you on that.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Give us the facts then, stop attention whoring or self elevating yourself with supposed rumours and speculations.

I've given you many many facts already. All you have to do is read between the lines.

Lastly, I don't need to attention whore. Just because I work in the industry and have a "Vetted" label doesn't mean that I'm intentially seeking attention.

 

[Elektro Demon]

I've given you many many facts already. All you have to do is read between the lines.

Lastly, I don't need to attention whore. Just because I work in the industry and have a "Vetted" label doesn't mean that I'm intentially seeking attention.

You didn't answer my question a while back when I genuinely wanted your opinion on the matter.

 

[VFXVeteran]

You didn't answer my question a while back when I genuinely wanted your opinion on the matter.

What was the question? Some things I'm just not going to outright confirm guys. Me and HeisenbergFX4 was a part of a journalist Youtube video about the PS5 rumors. I don't want any people trying to hunt me down. It won't be pretty.

 

[Elektro Demon]

What was the question? Some things I'm just not going to outright confirm guys. Me and HeisenbergFX4 was a part of a journalist Youtube video about the PS5 rumors. I don't want any people trying to hunt me down. It won't be pretty.

I'd appreciate if VFXVeteran could weigh in on this.
Is this really possible? Like using a real life as a pre rendered background in the game? Would it work?

But you have to look at the thread to get an idea of what I'm talking about. I'd appreciate your opinion since you work in the industry.
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/pre-rendered-backgrounds-in-2020.1521675/

 

[kraspkibble]

i can't speak for anyone else but consoles are only good if you're on a budget, you're not a serious gamer, you don't care about graphics/performance, or if you want to play a console exclusive.

i have a PS4 + Switch. My PS4 has been gathering dust for months and is only really used to play Blu Ray movies these days. I won't play a game on it until Persona 5 Royal and then The Last of Us 2. after that i could probably sell it. For Switch, well i can't play Zelda, Mario, Animal Crossing, etc on PC (well i can play Zelda on PC). Switch just has so many good exclusives that it's the ultimate console for me.

I have a PC for serious gaming. 165fps? yep. 4k? yup. raytracing? got it. the choice of keyboard/mouse or controller? i have it. much better sound quality? mmhm. more freedom + control over how my games look/run? yeee. .... there are more benefits to PC but you get the idea.

consoles are forever playing catch up with PC. if you're serious about playing games then PC is really the only option. consoles have their place under my TV with dust upon them for the few times i want to play something that's not on PC.

 

[VFXVeteran]

But you have to look at the thread to get an idea of what I'm talking about. I'd appreciate your opinion since you work in the industry.
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/pre-rendered-backgrounds-in-2020.1521675/

A prerendered background would look great for outside environment which is what they do today anyway (most games). However, implementing a pre-rendered background for indoors won't work.

1) Too many objects will no longer exist in a particular room and all the lighting of that background image would have to match 1:1 with objects that are actually 3D.
2) You remove dynamic objects being able to move, turning off lights on desks, for example, or 3D objects interacting in their environment.

So no is the answer. This will no longer be necessary.

 

[Blond]

There wouldn't be an argument if you just said, "I prefer to have an exclusive game that won't show up anywhere else to justify my purchase". I'm ok with that, but don't try to say that the exclusive game "looks" better than anything the PC has because the developer somehow extracted some secret technology that can't be implemented or found on an arbitrary multiplatform game on the PC. This is the crux of every single PC vs. console argument and has to stop. It's a completely unfair test because you are allowing the superior art direction of a game to give you false ammunition to say that it can't be done on a PC -- which is completely false.

I'm saying that this generation will tell you the full story because the PC WILL be getting several 1st party PS exclusives and they will, guaranteed have better graphics features than the PS5/XSX. Your only defense will be "it doesn't look that much different" - which is a complete cop out move.

Thank you for putting this out better than I could say because I'm so sick of it. Art direction =/= Better graphics technology

 

[Kazza]

We won't have to compare HZD on PC with HZD2 on PS5. We can just wait for the HZD2 on the PC and then compare.

 

[Ascend]

To me there is no clear winner... Most simplified version?

Want the best individual experience, with flexibility and controlling your own settings? -> PC
Want the best experience with friends/family in the same room and ease of use? -> Console

 

[Blond]

Last Word is really nuts about Playstation lol

 

[Represent.]

The best games of all time have all mostly been console exclusives, so consoles win. yeah

 

[PropellerEar]

I've given you many many facts already. All you have to do is read between the lines.

Lastly, I don't need to attention whore. Just because I work in the industry and have a "Vetted" label doesn't mean that I'm intentially seeking attention.

I don't care about being vetted, you lifted that up.

You said you had facts that prove your point, give them up and don't flaunt your "vetted" rumours to seem better than the other guy.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Last Word is really nuts about Playstation lol

Now do one for others.

 

[Blond]

Now do one for others.

I mean don't get me wrong, I love playstation. It's pretty much the only console I'll ever own but homie is PS3 era gaf in a single person.