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The outrage over saying “All lives matter”

betrayal

Member
Feb 2, 2018
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Now ask yourself this question:
Which type of person is more likely to possess a deadly weapon?
And then explain why the person most likely to be deadly is not the most likely to be killed by police.
I didn't read your edited post. But who has a gun at home or not is not important for the probability of being stopped by the police.
But why your post is still interesting is because this very survey doesn't reflect the demographically relevant groups, because that's the core of this whole discussion.

Is a black doctor who has a gun at home less likely to experience police violence compared to a black member of a gang dealing drugs?

Is a white doctor who has a gun at home less likely to experience police violence compared to a white member of a gang dealing drugs?

I think every person will answer these questions identically and it shows how stupid people are today.
 
Last edited:

I_D

Member
Dec 22, 2007
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But how can you definitively say that police are, in general, treating black people unfairly without looking at every individual situation?
Because the statistics take individual situations into account.

Statistically, black people are shot by police at a higher proportion than white people.
So are Hispanic people, and Native American people.

And white people are shot more than Asian people.



The conclusion from this is that police are letting biases influence their decisions, rather than the factors of the scenario taking place. This is the problem that BLM wishes to address.



😂😂 You don't fucking say.

Hmm, let's think. What group in America is today is claiming police response is tied to one factor?



Oh, is that rhetoric to much for you?

You swallow any crap BLM says, no question asked but it's nice to know there is some limit to the hyperbolic bullshit they spout that you will object to

To bad it is genocide


And yet that is what BLM is calling for, and that is what they believe.

Maybe you shod be more critical of a political party where that is their core beliefs


According to the people who believe that a police stop is akin to genocide.


What an incredibly stupid thing to say.

If group A acts more violently, than they will get a more violent response. You don't have a right to harm or murder a police officer

Your projection is strong.

Can you post anything relating to BLM officially sanctioning claims of genocide in the US?
All I can find is that a splinter-group (not BLM) is claiming genocide is happening in Israel, which is far off the topic.

You're putting all these fake ideas into the situation, then getting mad at them. You're displaying your lack of understanding.

Obviously you can't harm another person, regardless of their occupation. Statistical likelihoods still have nothing to do with individual situations.
Again, even if black people committed 99.9% of crimes, that still doesn't give police the right to respond with more force than is necessary.



I didn't read your edited post. But who has a gun at home or not is not important for the probability of being stopped by the police.
But why your post is still interesting is because this very survey doesn't reflect the demographically relevant groups, because that's the core of this whole discussion.

Is a black doctor who has a gun at home less likely to experience police violence compared to a black member of a gang dealing drugs?

Is a white doctor who has a gun at home less likely to experience police violence compared to a white member of a gang dealing drugs?

I think every person will answer these questions identically and it shows how stupid people are today.
Still missing the point.

The question is "Is a black gang member dealing drugs more or less likely to experience police violence than a white gang member dealing drugs?"
The answer to that question is why BLM exists.
 
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Zefah

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2007
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Because the statistics take individual situations into account.

Statistically, black people are shot by police at a higher proportion than white people.
So are Hispanic people, and Native American people.

And white people are shot more than Asian people.



The conclusion from this is that police are letting biases influence their decisions, rather than the factors of the scenario taking place. This is the problem that BLM wishes to address.
Why is that your conclusion, instead of seeing that crime rates in proportion to population lead to increased violent encounters with police and shootings in proportion to population?

You've got black people committing violent crimes (murder, robbery) at a rate of 5~6x that of white people, but getting shot by police at a rate of 2~3x in proportion to population.

None of this indicates the "likelihood" that any individual is going to commit a crime, but I also think the same can be said of the "likelihood" of police violence against any particular group.
 
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cryptoadam

... and he cannot lie
Feb 21, 2018
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I must have forgotten that BLMs specialty is police reform, and not gang violence, homicides and stuff.

In the city of Chicago there are plenty of anti-gang grassroots groups in addition to the police, just for that.
Stop gaslighting us on this board


Four years ago, what is now known as the Black Lives Matter Global Network began to organize. It started out as a chapter-based, member-led organization whose mission was to build local power and to intervene when violence was inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes.

In the years since, we’ve committed to struggling together and to imagining and creating a world free of anti-Blackness, where every Black person has the social, economic, and political power to thrive.

Black Lives Matter began as a call to action in response to state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Our intention from the very beginning was to connect Black people from all over the world who have a shared desire for justice to act together in their communities. The impetus for that commitment was, and still is, the rampant and deliberate violence inflicted on us by the state.

Enraged by the death of Trayvon Martin and the subsequent acquittal of his killer, George Zimmerman, and inspired by the 31-day takeover of the Florida State Capitol by POWER U and the Dream Defenders, we took to the streets. A year later, we set out together on the Black Lives Matter Freedom Ride to Ferguson, in search of justice for Mike Brown and all of those who have been torn apart by state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Forever changed, we returned home and began building the infrastructure for the Black Lives Matter Global Network, which, even in its infancy, has become a political home for many.

Ferguson helped to catalyze a movement to which we’ve all helped give life. Organizers who call this network home have ousted anti-Black politicians, won critical legislation to benefit Black lives, and changed the terms of the debate on Blackness around the world. Through movement and relationship building, we have also helped catalyze other movements and shifted culture with an eye toward the dangerous impacts of anti-Blackness.

These are the results of our collective efforts.

The Black Lives Matter Global Network is as powerful as it is because of our membership, our partners, our supporters, our staff, and you. Our continued commitment to liberation for all Black people means we are continuing the work of our ancestors and fighting for our collective freedom because it is our duty.

Every day, we recommit to healing ourselves and each other, and to co-creating alongside comrades, allies, and family a culture where each person feels seen, heard, and supported.

We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people.

We intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

We see ourselves as part of the global Black family, and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black people who exist in different parts of the world.

We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location.

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead.

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

We practice empathy. We engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.

We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.



CTRL F : Police = 0
CTRL F: Reform = 0
CTRL F: political = 2
CTRL F: liberation = 3
CTRL F: violence = 6

If BLM can't even be arsed to use the words police and or reform in their own ABOUT US page, stop gaslighting this board telling us that BLM is about police reform.

They even say themselves they started because of Trayvon Martin, which had nothing to do with police, or even white on black violence and or racism. In actuality Zimmerman was doing community policing, the exact thing that BLM is arguing for now with their abolish the police crusade. So BLM wants to create a world full of George Zimmermans to dish out Zimmerman justice. BLM also wants body cams which cost $$$ but want to defund the police, making it harder for them to purchase and maintain these body cams.
 
Last edited:
Dec 15, 2011
8,064
21,213
1,165
Stop gaslighting us on this board


CTRL F : Police = 0
CTRL F: Reform = 0
CTRL F: political = 2
CTRL F: liberation = 3
CTRL F: violence = 6

If BLM can't even be arsed to use the words police and or reform in their own ABOUT US page, stop gaslighting this board telling us that BLM is about police reform.

They even say themselves they started because of Trayvon Martin, which had nothing to do with police, or even white on black violence and or racism. In actuality Zimmerman was doing community policing, the exact thing that BLM is arguing for now with their abolish the police crusade. So BLM wants to create a world full of George Zimmermans to dish out Zimmerman justice. BLM also wants body cams which cost $$$ but want to defund the police, making it harder for them to purchase and maintain these body cams.
In political jargon, a useful idiot is a derogatory term for a person perceived as propagandizing for a cause without fully comprehending the cause's goals, and who is cynically used by the cause's leaders.[1][2] The term was originally used during the Cold War to describe non-communists regarded as susceptible to communist propaganda and manipulation.
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
7,288
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Your projection is strong.

Can you post anything relating to BLM officially sanctioning claims of genocide in the US?
All I can find is that a splinter-group (not BLM) is claiming genocide is happening in Israel, which is far off the topic.

You're putting all these fake ideas into the situation, then getting mad at them. You're displaying your lack of understanding.

Obviously you can't harm another person, regardless of their occupation. Statistical likelihoods still have nothing to do with individual situations.
Again, even if black people committed 99.9% of crimes, that still doesn't give police the right to respond with more force than is necessary.
the only projection I see hear is coming from you.

I'm not putting fake ideas anywhere. I'm quoting the words BLM and their advocates routinely use. I'm detailing the specific policies you are choosing to ignore. I wonder why?

Again, you understand nothing about policing. Force required is determined by the situation at hand. If a culprit escalates a situation, the police should be allowed to rise to that escalation.

As I said previously and you also ignored, you don't have a right to harm or kill police.
 

Vicetrailia

Member
Mar 12, 2019
1,839
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Stop gaslighting us on this board


Four years ago, what is now known as the Black Lives Matter Global Network began to organize. It started out as a chapter-based, member-led organization whose mission was to build local power and to intervene when violence was inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes.

In the years since, we’ve committed to struggling together and to imagining and creating a world free of anti-Blackness, where every Black person has the social, economic, and political power to thrive.

Black Lives Matter began as a call to action in response to state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Our intention from the very beginning was to connect Black people from all over the world who have a shared desire for justice to act together in their communities. The impetus for that commitment was, and still is, the rampant and deliberate violence inflicted on us by the state.

Enraged by the death of Trayvon Martin and the subsequent acquittal of his killer, George Zimmerman, and inspired by the 31-day takeover of the Florida State Capitol by POWER U and the Dream Defenders, we took to the streets. A year later, we set out together on the Black Lives Matter Freedom Ride to Ferguson, in search of justice for Mike Brown and all of those who have been torn apart by state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Forever changed, we returned home and began building the infrastructure for the Black Lives Matter Global Network, which, even in its infancy, has become a political home for many.

Ferguson helped to catalyze a movement to which we’ve all helped give life. Organizers who call this network home have ousted anti-Black politicians, won critical legislation to benefit Black lives, and changed the terms of the debate on Blackness around the world. Through movement and relationship building, we have also helped catalyze other movements and shifted culture with an eye toward the dangerous impacts of anti-Blackness.

These are the results of our collective efforts.

The Black Lives Matter Global Network is as powerful as it is because of our membership, our partners, our supporters, our staff, and you. Our continued commitment to liberation for all Black people means we are continuing the work of our ancestors and fighting for our collective freedom because it is our duty.

Every day, we recommit to healing ourselves and each other, and to co-creating alongside comrades, allies, and family a culture where each person feels seen, heard, and supported.

We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people.

We intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

We see ourselves as part of the global Black family, and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black people who exist in different parts of the world.

We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location.

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead.

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

We practice empathy. We engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.

We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.



CTRL F : Police = 0
CTRL F: Reform = 0
CTRL F: political = 2
CTRL F: liberation = 3
CTRL F: violence = 6

If BLM can't even be arsed to use the words police and or reform in their own ABOUT US page, stop gaslighting this board telling us that BLM is about police reform.

They even say themselves they started because of Trayvon Martin, which had nothing to do with police, or even white on black violence and or racism. In actuality Zimmerman was doing community policing, the exact thing that BLM is arguing for now with their abolish the police crusade. So BLM wants to create a world full of George Zimmermans to dish out Zimmerman justice. BLM also wants body cams which cost $$$ but want to defund the police, making it harder for them to purchase and maintain these body cams.
"Defund the police" could mean lots of things.

Btw I guess BLM is changing right before our eyes.

BLM’s #WhatMatters2020 will focus on the following issues:

  • Racial Injustice
  • Police Brutality
  • Criminal Justice Reform
  • Black Immigration
  • Economic Injustice
  • LGBTQIA+ and Human Rights
  • Environmental Conditions
  • Voting Rights & Suppression
  • Healthcare
  • Government Corruption
  • Education
  • Commonsense Gun Laws
 
Last edited:
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Monkeygourmet

Member
Jul 8, 2019
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What’s fascinating (worrying) about this group and it’s followers is the quick acceptance of its true colours.

Most of these groups suck people in with ideology and slowly morph over time to resemble something else entirely. You can almost understand how people get sucked in and suddenly find themselves in a situation with what they signed upto slowly becoming something else entirely and that’s usually when they attempt to fade out of the group or feel it has changed from it’s original message.

This group, however has very quickly shown it’s true colours In real-time, yet, rather than question or express concerns It’s members have blindly doubled down which is both sad and dangerously blind. It shows you how strong indoctrination can be when things Like this are not questioned or challenged.

On one hand you have BLM supporters saying; “Well it does actually mean ALM, deep down” and on the other hand you have supporters saying “White lives *don’t* matter...”. Instead of calling this individual out, it goes completely unchallenged - so which is it? You can’t have it both ways - get your house in order before you try and pontificate.

Then you have the sudden switch to Palestinian / Israeli conflict and focus on this. But hold on, I thought BLM was not focused on these matters?!

I mean ffs, get your shit together here. The targets and viewpoints are constantly changing.

It’s nonsense.
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
7,288
10,866
520
Stop gaslighting us on this board


Four years ago, what is now known as the Black Lives Matter Global Network began to organize. It started out as a chapter-based, member-led organization whose mission was to build local power and to intervene when violence was inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes.

In the years since, we’ve committed to struggling together and to imagining and creating a world free of anti-Blackness, where every Black person has the social, economic, and political power to thrive.

Black Lives Matter began as a call to action in response to state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Our intention from the very beginning was to connect Black people from all over the world who have a shared desire for justice to act together in their communities. The impetus for that commitment was, and still is, the rampant and deliberate violence inflicted on us by the state.

Enraged by the death of Trayvon Martin and the subsequent acquittal of his killer, George Zimmerman, and inspired by the 31-day takeover of the Florida State Capitol by POWER U and the Dream Defenders, we took to the streets. A year later, we set out together on the Black Lives Matter Freedom Ride to Ferguson, in search of justice for Mike Brown and all of those who have been torn apart by state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Forever changed, we returned home and began building the infrastructure for the Black Lives Matter Global Network, which, even in its infancy, has become a political home for many.

Ferguson helped to catalyze a movement to which we’ve all helped give life. Organizers who call this network home have ousted anti-Black politicians, won critical legislation to benefit Black lives, and changed the terms of the debate on Blackness around the world. Through movement and relationship building, we have also helped catalyze other movements and shifted culture with an eye toward the dangerous impacts of anti-Blackness.

These are the results of our collective efforts.

The Black Lives Matter Global Network is as powerful as it is because of our membership, our partners, our supporters, our staff, and you. Our continued commitment to liberation for all Black people means we are continuing the work of our ancestors and fighting for our collective freedom because it is our duty.

Every day, we recommit to healing ourselves and each other, and to co-creating alongside comrades, allies, and family a culture where each person feels seen, heard, and supported.

We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people.

We intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

We see ourselves as part of the global Black family, and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black people who exist in different parts of the world.

We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location.

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead.

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

We practice empathy. We engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.

We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.



CTRL F : Police = 0
CTRL F: Reform = 0
CTRL F: political = 2
CTRL F: liberation = 3
CTRL F: violence = 6

If BLM can't even be arsed to use the words police and or reform in their own ABOUT US page, stop gaslighting this board telling us that BLM is about police reform.

They even say themselves they started because of Trayvon Martin, which had nothing to do with police, or even white on black violence and or racism. In actuality Zimmerman was doing community policing, the exact thing that BLM is arguing for now with their abolish the police crusade. So BLM wants to create a world full of George Zimmermans to dish out Zimmerman justice. BLM also wants body cams which cost $$$ but want to defund the police, making it harder for them to purchase and maintain these body cams.
They are a political party that want political power, but some people here are honestly to stupid to see that.

When BLM start running budget proposals to local government, or get congressmen or senators elected that sit on congressional boards that weigh matters far bigger than police, they will still be thinking this was just about police violence.
 

betrayal

Member
Feb 2, 2018
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The question is "Is a black gang member dealing drugs more or less likely to experience police violence than a white gang member dealing drugs?"
The answer to that question is why BLM exists.
Wrong. BLM claims to know the answer to this question. But they don't. But that does not mean that the answer is not there for all to see.

BLM doesn't ask this question publicly either, because it would hurt them massively. Just google the distribution of ethnicity / race among gang members in the USA and learn something new (or just click this link: https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/survey-analysis/demographics).

White people make up about 10% of all gang members in the USA.
 
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DragoonKain

Member
Nov 13, 2013
4,685
7,160
960
I did.

Like you, he's missing the point.




BLM: Black lives are important, and all people should be treated fairly. Police are being more harsh than they should be.

You: Buh buh! Crime rates are higher!





You just can't seem to understand the basic concept of equality, and have to instead bring up unrelated stuff.
Officer involved shooting statistics don’t state the circumstance or context. Even if someone is unarmed they could be fighting an officer or reaching for their gun. That’s one thing that makes the statistics misleading across the board. The far majority of shootings are justified. As for the per capita statistics being higher for black men than white men, it’s not about the individual it’s about the number of interactions.

For example if you live in Kansas, your house is more likely to get destroyed by a tornado than it is in NY because Kansas has more of them. It’s simple math. Most high crime areas and most inner cities have more crime and also higher black populations. More cops will be called for incidents. That means more interactions, greater chances something happens.

And cops have to respond differently per the environment they’re in. They’d be foolish not to. You can’t respond to say street ruckus in the south side of Chicago like you would in Boise, Idaho. Knowing your surroundings is one of the most important parts of being a cop.

It’s the same premise of military stationed in Afghanistan would respond differently to a car approaching a checkpoint than it would the same situation in say South Korea. Afghanistan is known for suicide bombings, you have to treat each individual situation uniquely.

If a cop shows up to any police call in a high crime area with his guard down that’s a good way to get them and their partner killed, and potentially any other civilians in the area they’re responsible for that they couldn’t protect because they’re now dead.

However there is no indication that blacks are being unfairly and needlessly killed by cops than whites. And on top of it, black cops statistically are more likely to kill black civilians than white cops are. Because a lot of inner city kids in high black populated areas grow up to be cops, therefore a lot of inner city cops are black... where a lot of these shootings take place.

Follow the statistics and you’ll see that crime, drugs, and poverty rates almost always universally are accompanied by shooting rates in equal measure. And the majority of the people living in those areas are going to be the ones shot.
 
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cryptoadam

... and he cannot lie
Feb 21, 2018
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"Defund the police" could mean lots of things.

Btw I guess BLM is changing right before our eyes.

BLM’s #WhatMatters2020 will focus on the following issues:

  • Racial Injustice
  • Police Brutality
  • Criminal Justice Reform
  • Black Immigration
  • Economic Injustice
  • LGBTQIA+ and Human Rights
  • Environmental Conditions
  • Voting Rights & Suppression
  • Healthcare
  • Government Corruption
  • Education
  • Commonsense Gun Laws
Only two of those things have to do with the police, which you

I must have forgotten that BLMs specialty is police reform,
But seems that no they have many other areas that they are working on, so black on black crime should be on that list too. And consider if you get rid of crime, then you get rid of police interactions, then you get rid of police brutality.

In Colorado they want to get rid of the cops. 86% of police shootings involved drugs, 44% meth. 81% of those shot were armed.

BLM could get rid of 86% of cop shooting if they told everyone in Colorado to stop drugs. But they never will do that because they don't really care about police brutality. Trayvon Martin was not killed by cops, nor a white person.

This just looks like a normal leftist political platform. So enough with this BS that if we don't agree with BLM we don't care about black lives. They just have a smorgasbord of far left political ideas and DNC progressive ideas. They are an arm of the Democratic party thats it thats all.

BLM uses black corpses to push through their political agenda. Maybe they could care about the real black genocide thats going on in the disproportinate amount of planned parenthoods located in black communities, where in some places more black babies are being aborted than being born. They could probably fit that in somewhere with enviromental conditions, health care, and black immigration.

I guess BLM is ok with white doctors killing black babies though. God forbid they might give birth to a straight male who will then continue the heterogeneous patriarchy.

But thank you for proving all of our points, that BLM is not about black lives or police brutality, its a marxist socialist supremacist movement.
 
Dec 15, 2011
8,064
21,213
1,165
Y'know this thread gives me a degree of satisfaction.

With COVID affecting so many things, including the forthcoming Tokyo 2020 Olympics schedule and running..

..it's good to see such a mesmerising display of mental gymnastics.

[6.0] [6.0] [6.0] [5.8.] [5.9] [6.0]
🥇🥈🥉
 
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oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
7,288
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520
Did you not read the bulletpoints I posted?
  • Black Immigration
  • Economic Injustice
  • LGBTQIA+ and Human Rights
  • Environmental Conditions
  • Voting Rights & Suppression
  • Healthcare
  • Government Corruption
  • Education
  • Commonsense Gun Laws

The fuck does that have to do with the police. GTFO with this.

So basically everyone was right to call you out for your shit. This isn't about police
 
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lachesis

Member
Jun 17, 2004
3,238
485
1,595
More I read about BLM org, sounds like Feminism - saying Feminism is for men too. Just swap the police to male, systemic racism to toxic masculinity etc.
Pretty much same old collectivist tactic, same ideas of us vs them, oppressed vs oppressors.
 

I_D

Member
Dec 22, 2007
4,344
634
1,260
Why is that your conclusion, instead of seeing that crime rates in proportion to population lead to increased violent encounters with police and shootings in proportion to population?

You've got black people committing violent crimes (murder, robbery) at a rate of 5~6x that of white people, but getting shot by police at a rate of 2~3x in proportion to population.

None of this indicates the "likelihood" that any individual is going to commit a crime, but I also think the same can be said of the "likelihood" of police violence against any particular group.
That's why BLM includes other races. It's all about police brutality.

The total number of which races commit which crimes isn't the relevant statistic in this discussion. The one to pay attention to is that some races are killed at higher rates than others in proportion to the total population. It's indicative of bias, rather than proper police responses.


the only projection I see hear is coming from you.

I'm not putting fake ideas anywhere. I'm quoting the words BLM and their advocates routinely use. I'm detailing the specific policies you are choosing to ignore. I wonder why?

Again, you understand nothing about policing. Force required is determined by the situation at hand. If a culprit escalates a situation, the police should be allowed to rise to that escalation.

As I said previously and you also ignored, you don't have a right to harm or kill police.
Dude, you're talking about genocide against black people. You're just pulling random shit out of nothing.


Wrong. BLM claims to know the answer to this question. But they don't.

But BLM doesn't ask this question publicly either, because it would hurt them massively. Just google the distribution of ethnicity / race among gang members in the USA and learn something new (or click this link: https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/survey-analysis/demographics).
It's not a secret that the majority of gang members are not white.
That still doesn't relate to the fact that a white gang member is less likely to be killed by police than a non-white gang member.


Officer involved shooting statistics don’t state the circumstance or context. Even if someone is unarmed they could be fighting an officer or reaching for their gun. That’s one thing that makes the statistics misleading across the board. The far majority of shootings are justified. As for the per capita statistics being higher for black men than white men, it’s not about the individual it’s about the number of interactions.

For example if you live in Kansas, your house is more likely to get destroyed by a tornado than it is in NY because Kansas has more of them. It’s simple math. Most high crime areas and most inner cities have more crime and also higher black populations. More cops will be called for incidents. That means more interactions, greater chances something happens.

And cops have to respond differently per the environment they’re in. They’d be foolish not to. You can’t respond to say street ruckus in the south side of Chicago like you would in Boise, Idaho. Knowing your surroundings is one of the most important parts of being a cop.

It’s the same premise of military stationed in Afghanistan would respond differently to a car approaching a checkpoint than it would the same situation in say South Korea. Afghanistan is known for suicide bombings, you have to treat each individual situation uniquely.

If a cop shows up to any police call in a high crime area with his guard down that’s a good way to get them and their partner killed, and potentially any other civilians in the area they’re responsible for that they couldn’t protect because they’re now dead.

However there is no indication that blacks are being unfairly and needlessly killed by cops than whites. And on top of it, black cops statistically are more likely to kill black civilians than white cops are. Because a lot of inner city kids in high black populated areas grow up to be cops, therefore a lot of inner city cops are black... where a lot of these shootings take place.

Follow the statistics and you’ll see that crime, drugs, and poverty rates almost always universally are accompanied by shooting rates in equal measure. And the majority of the people living in those areas are going to be the ones shot.
The bolded simply isn't true, and that's not at all how they're trained to react.
Danger is danger, regardless of the location. Their guard should always be up, and they should be ready to respond in any way necessary.
Allowing location/demographics into the equation just clouds judgement.

And yes, there is indication that blacks are being killed at higher rates than whites. That's the whole point of BLM. There are tons of statistics to support this claim. I've already posted some of them.





This is starting to go in circles, so I'll try to summarize a bit:
- The reason people get upset with "All lives matter" is because it belittles the point of BLM.
- The point of BLM is to show that yes, all lives do matter. And some of those lives are not being treated fairly.
- It is highly likely that those who say 'ALM' are totally in support of BLM.
- Almost every member in this thread who has a problem with BLM is saying things completely in line with BLM's message.
- A huge proponent of the backlash from both sides comes from a poor naming scheme, and a lack of understanding.

- Only a small amount of people who claim 'ALM' actually are racist. Most of it is just ignorance from reading headlines and nothing else, then having knee-jerk responses.
- Meanwhile, some people (even in this very thread) are quite obviously saying that black people are dangerous, but aren't quite putting it so succinctly. So yeah, those people do exist as well.

- The entire movement was designed to highlight police brutality. If you have a problem with people abusing power, you're a supporter of BLM.
- People, because a lot of people suck, have used the movement to their own gains (just like any other group in history). Having a problem with the splinter groups should not be akin to a problem with BLM itself.
 

cryptoadam

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More I read about BLM org, sounds like Feminism - saying Feminism is for men too. Just swap the police to male, systemic racism to toxic masculinity etc.
Pretty much same old collectivist tactic, same ideas of us vs them, oppressed vs oppressors.
The 3 founders are hardcore feminists. BLM is a feminist movement. All their rhetoric is about getting rid of men, of the family, of straight men. They push Queer and trans to the forefront because again the point is to get rid of strong men.

Feminisim may be one of the most ideologies today. Its why all these Karens and Lekisha's go around shrieking at everyone because feminists have told them they are strong WAMANZ and men can't do anything back to them.

These WAMANZ just need a strong pimp hand. I don't think women should be abused but what do you do with a rabid dog?

Just go watch all these "protest" videos and see WAMANZ and land whales getting into peoples faces and agitating them screaming and yelling. Its because society has been feed bullshit that WAMANZ are STRANG and that men need to bend the knee to WAMANZ. Of course they will push the limits when they get no pushback.

And I am not a women hater or women beater. Normal women are fine. My GF, my Sister, all women in my family and that I know are normal human beings. Its these ultra feminists that drove feminism over the deep end and destroyed it that I am talking about.
 

Vicetrailia

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  • Black Immigration
  • Economic Injustice
  • LGBTQIA+ and Human Rights
  • Environmental Conditions
  • Voting Rights & Suppression
  • Healthcare
  • Government Corruption
  • Education
  • Commonsense Gun Laws

The fuck does that have to do with the police. GTFO with this.

So basically everyone was right to call you out for your shit. This isn't about police
It isn't about police? It's always about the police, they still almost exclusively protest to it. Now they added more causes.

Economic justice could possibly cover gang violence, but you'll have to wait and see on that one.
 
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Zefah

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That's why BLM includes other races. It's all about police brutality.
Which part of BLM includes other races? Most of what I've seen from BLM "leaders" is that they care only about black lives when they're taken by police officers, and especially white police officers.

The total number of which races commit which crimes isn't the relevant statistic in this discussion. The one to pay attention to is that some races are killed at higher rates than others in proportion to the total population. It's indicative of bias, rather than proper police responses.
Why is not relevant? Does it not stand to reason that higher rates of violent crime would lead to more interactions with police, and that more interactions with police would lead to higher rates of being shot by those police?

If you're committing violent crimes at a rate of 5~6x but being killed at a rate of 2~3x, how is that indicative of some kind of overwhelming bias from police?

This Harvard study from 2016 actually found no racial differences in officer involved shootings, either in the raw data or when contextual factors were taken into account.


It was done by a black American economist who actually went into the study assuming that he would find indication of bias, but it just wasn't present in the data. He was heavily criticized for publishing this study and responded to some of that in this NYT piece. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/upshot/roland-fryer-answers-reader-questions-about-his-police-force-study.html
 
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DragoonKain

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That's why BLM includes other races. It's all about police brutality.

The total number of which races commit which crimes isn't the relevant statistic in this discussion. The one to pay attention to is that some races are killed at higher rates than others in proportion to the total population. It's indicative of bias, rather than proper police responses.




Dude, you're talking about genocide against black people. You're just pulling random shit out of nothing.



It's not a secret that the majority of gang members are not white.
That still doesn't relate to the fact that a white gang member is less likely to be killed by police than a non-white gang member.




The bolded simply isn't true, and that's not at all how they're trained to react.
Danger is danger, regardless of the location. Their guard should always be up, and they should be ready to respond in any way necessary.
Allowing location/demographics into the equation just clouds judgement.

And yes, there is indication that blacks are being killed at higher rates than whites. That's the whole point of BLM. There are tons of statistics to support this claim. I've already posted some of them.





This is starting to go in circles, so I'll try to summarize a bit:
- The reason people get upset with "All lives matter" is because it belittles the point of BLM.
- The point of BLM is to show that yes, all lives do matter. And some of those lives are not being treated fairly.
- It is highly likely that those who say 'ALM' are totally in support of BLM.
- Almost every member in this thread who has a problem with BLM is saying things completely in line with BLM's message.
- A huge proponent of the backlash from both sides comes from a poor naming scheme, and a lack of understanding.

- Only a small amount of people who claim 'ALM' actually are racist. Most of it is just ignorance from reading headlines and nothing else, then having knee-jerk responses.
- Meanwhile, some people (even in this very thread) are quite obviously saying that black people are dangerous, but aren't quite putting it so succinctly. So yeah, those people do exist as well.

- The entire movement was designed to highlight police brutality. If you have a problem with people abusing power, you're a supporter of BLM.
- People, because a lot of people suck, have used the movement to their own gains (just like any other group in history). Having a problem with the splinter groups should not be akin to a problem with BLM itself.
It is true, man. And yes, cops are trained based on the cities they serve in. I have cops in my family, talk to them all the time. I've studied crime for years. You can't respond to a call in an area ridden with drugs, gangs, and crime like you would in an area that has no crime or gangs. It's not the way the world works. And if your city has a higher gang or drug presence, you're trained to deal with it.

And I already stated that stats do show that blacks are killed at higher rates on the surface, what I did was explain why context might put it into a better perspective than the simple explanation being "cops don't care about black lives."
 

Johnny Silver

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This seems to really piss people off and has gotten a lot of people in trouble for saying it.

I know that there are some people who feel saying it is a way to downplay any racism, and changing the subject away from social equalities. But just take that phrase for what it is. Saying that everyone’s life matters. For that to be controversial is one of the great examples today of how all sanity and logic and context has been lost.

Not a single upstanding person would disagree with that saying in a vacuum. But somehow it’s not allowed to be said. I can’t think of another example in society right now that compares. Something that everyone openly agrees with and would admit they agree with it if you slightly rephrased or tweaked the verbiage,, yet aren’t allowed to say it.

It backs up what Bret Weinstein’s been correctly saying for weeks. This movement isn’t about ending racism, it’s about turning the tables of racism. It if weren’t you’d be allowed to say that everyone’s life matters without someone coming down on you for in no way saying that one demographic’s lives don’t.
BLM is a supremacist movement, wants society to excuse everything done by blacks and wants blacks to be given a privileged status, deprived of accountability. Hence equality of accountability, duties and responsibilities towards contributing to the wider society by saying "All lives Matter" is intolerable to them and ruins their efforts.

They are a racist anti-white movement. Saying "All lives matter" humanizes whites and that is intolerable by their book.

(edited)
 
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Monkeygourmet

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Wow. There it is, the gloves off:

GOALS

1.
Vigorously engage our communities in the electoral process:

Millions of Black Americans are repressed within the democratic process, yet data shows Black voters tipped the balance in the 2018 midterm elections. Moving towards 2020, we seek to increase the power of our voices and votes.

2.
Educate our constituents about candidates and the issues that impact us most:

We will amplify and do a deep dive into the issues that affect our communities most and hold our candidates accountable on these issues.

3.
Promote voter registration among Generation Z, the Black community, and our allies:

Demographic shifts means that in the 2020 election, non-whites will account for a third of voters and one in ten voters will be members of Generation Z. We will encourage and provide resources for those seeking to vote.

Not a political organisation my ass.

it’s about Police reform - fuck offfffffffff

😂😂😂

(From the horses mouth)

*Edit

This ideology is laughably controlling.

“We goin’ to educate you idiots on who to vote for then teach you how to harness your vote (as long as you vote for who we approve)...”
 
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I don't know what MSM is, so...
The 'news' outlets who were proven to fabricate their news to deceive their viewers. [cnn, msnbc and many more]

You're still not understanding how this works.
Even if black people made up 99% of all of the crimes, and all other races combined made up the other 1%, the data shows that cops would still be responding with deadly force more than is needed. Your own source (which was also the same source I posted earlier, just a fun fact) which you clearly didn't read other than the graph, which you didn't bother to understand since you're taking the numbers way out of context, proves this.

What it sounds like you're saying is that black people, who make up a small portion of the population, commit most of the crimes, which makes them more dangerous than other races. This makes cops scared, and therefore more cop-related shootings occur due to fear.
Because if that's what you're saying...
Then it means that cops are judging scenarios based on the color of a person's skin, rather than the actual elements of each scenario without bias and proper responses.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So you are capable of looking at statistics. Police has in depth statistics not shared publicly on every single arrest. We don't even know how many officers are getting seriously injured during an arrest.

You claim to believe that BLM is a movement for all people. If that was the case, then where was BLM parades when a white man was killed literally the very same/ identical way just a few years prior? We heard nothing from BLM nor MSM, nothing.
Where are BLM parades when black on black killings happen way too often which are by far the biggest problem in black communities.

They only seem to care to start their marches when a black man is killed by a white man and also 'coincidentally' only during a major election year.

But it gets better. Apparently donations to BLM goes into supporting democrat ran candidates. I'm sure it's all just coincidental.
 
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V4skunk

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BLM is fascist / marxist.
Fascism developed from the same leftwing roots as Marxism. While fascism wasn't in the sense Marxist, Mussolini the founder of fascism occupied the same position on the Italian ultra-left that Lenin occupied on the Russian ultra-left. This is why Marxism and fascism share the same four ideological foundations. These foundations are state-directed social unity as an absolute good ,elimination of politically incorrect classes and groups by means of mass murder, the merging of the whole of society into the state, the principle of absolute limitless and unchecked state power. Mussolini’s totalitarian slogan from the 1920s was "all within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state". This is a good description of the regime established by Lenin.
 

Monkeygourmet

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You can see the power play now.

• Label Trump supporters racist.

• Elevate a supremest group into the public eye.

• Wait for tragic event.

• Use mass media / social media to swamp people with BLM supremest propaganda.

• Label anyone who does not agree with movement as racist.

• Super fund organisation.

• Morph organisation into a politically aggressive entity targeting all individuals who were previously ‘labelled’ using racism as a banner of shame.
 

GreenAlien

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cryptoadam

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The Nazi's were also a small political party that started out as antifascist and claimed to be beating commie "protesters". And then they morphed into a political party, got a foot hold in government and the rest is history.

We are on the cusp of seeing that in America. Even some are pushing for it, like the founder of BET. The leader of BLM New York went on TV and said we will burn it down if we don't get what we want.

#Alllivesmatter PERIOD. Black lives arent more important than Asian, Latino, or White lives. Question is when do BLM and lefties would stop supporting the black genocide of the womb and stop letting white doctors destroy and stunt the black community.
 

betrayal

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It's not a secret that the majority of gang members are not white.
That still doesn't relate to the fact that a white gang member is less likely to be killed by police than a non-white gang member.
Which fact? Where can i find this fact?
 

JordanN

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First, you're killing me with all these tiny quotes. Can we condense a bit, perhaps?


Secondly,
This is just way off-topic at this point. Apparently you think everybody loved Obama and everybody hates Trump.
You're wrong, but w/e. Let's move on.
If you're new to the politics forum, I've always posted like this. Sorry, but every paragraph counts. 🤷‍♀️

Rayshard was also black, so you could probably pick a better example there.

Again, claiming that the police ALSO brutalize other people doesn't discredit BLM.
All you're doing is proving their point - the police brutality needs to stop. That's a huge part of the BLM message.
No, the point was he was black and there was already rioting/destruction without even waiting for the police to say what happened.
Getting to the point where a police defending themselves gets labeled as "brutality" is where the organization loses all credibility. Especially since Rayshard was caught on camera reaching for the officers gun and trying to kill him.

And which happens more often - BLM rises up over a fatality regarding an armed suspect, or BLM rises up over a fatality regarding an unarmed suspect?

You keep bringing up unrelated tangents.
Well Rayshard turned himself armed/resisted an officer so BLM isn't consistent.


Literally none of those examples relate to culture. :messenger_grinning_squinting:
You missed the point anyway.
Surely you can see why it would be harder for people spread out all over the country, who make up the majority of the population, and who have politically disagreed with each other since the inception of the country, who are economically more stable and less prone to want change to all band together to fight an oppressor than it would be for a much smaller, easily recognizable, historically oppressed population to do the same?
Lol no.
If America was attacked by a foreign country, do you think all the white citizens wouldn't know what to do or let a foreign army just march in? You may have war resisters/peace activists, but the other 50% could mobilize pretty quickly.

The same logic applies if white people wanted to fight oppression in their same country. So some white guys disagree, ok. But there are White guys who clearly don't.

Also, why not use this logic for the black community? How about black people who are opposed to BLM or don't actually believe the lie the police are on a hunting spree?

I personally wouldn't say your statistics are wrong. And I would agree with you that the injustice needs to stop.
It's not guaranteed that BLM members would criticize you, but yeah, some probably would.
But again, you're saying the exact same thing that BLM is supporting - the injustice needs to stop. Races need to all be treated equally, in all aspects of life.
Regardless of which race is being unfairly targeted, it needs to stop.

It just so happens that black people had the guts to say it first.
Now lets see if they have the guts to not stop other movements from forming and demanding their own airtime instead, ok?
Otherwise, it would look like a moot point.

"They had the guts to say it first, but only because they also wouldn't allow other races to speak up at the same time."

See, you're finally getting it.
Police brutality affects all people.

Police do not have a fear of killing people, which is a problem.
And, statistically, that lack of fear affects black people more than it affects others; even though the other deaths are just as bad.
Welcome to BLM.
And we have inverse examples where Asian Americans fear this the least.
Which has continued to lead me to believe that there would need to be some kind of "Asian supremacy" system in the USA if all groups where unfairly targeted and not the fact that certain groups are more armed or more likely to interact with the people. This is also proven true again when you look at successful/affluent black people. Their race doesn't actually get them more killed compared to a poor white person.
 
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oagboghi2

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Dude, you're talking about genocide against black people. You're just pulling random shit out of nothing.
I'm bringing up a talking point that BLM constantly use in their marches and protests.

And you are trying to pretend that doesn't happen.

It isn't about police? It's always about the police, they still almost exclusively protest to it. Now they added more causes.

Economic justice could possibly cover gang violence, but you'll have to wait and see on that one.
"Economic injustice cover gang violence" you are just speaking nonsense now?

And if you haven't noticed BLM protest everything now. Are they tearing down statues currently becuase they are protesting police?
 
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V4skunk

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Nov 20, 2018
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You can see the power play now.

• Label Trump supporters racist.

• Elevate a supremest group into the public eye.

• Wait for tragic event.

• Use mass media / social media to swamp people with BLM supremest propaganda.

• Label anyone who does not agree with movement as racist.

• Super fund organisation.

• Morph organisation into a politically aggressive entity targeting all individuals who were previously ‘labelled’ using racism as a banner of shame.
And give them a badge to wear like the nazis did to the Jews! Then off to "re-education" death camps.
 

undrtakr900

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When you have people freely and allowed to speak openly racist about white people on platforms, it's a counter to woke culture has not applied racism evenly, which is what equity is supposed to be about.
Can you give some examples? 🤔
 

DragoonKain

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Can you give some examples? 🤔
It's all over social media, all over everywhere. You don't have to look hard. There are tons of accounts on Twitter who openly talk about how white people are evil and never get banned.

There was this one account, I forget the name of it, someone here may remember her name. She's middle eastern descent I think. Her name began with an Sao or something. Her entire profile is just trashing white people. "White people are evil, they don't understand" stuff like that all over. I'd always have someone quote tweeting her on my feed.
 
Dec 15, 2011
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It's all over social media, all over everywhere. You don't have to look hard. There are tons of accounts on Twitter who openly talk about how white people are evil and never get banned.

There was this one account, I forget the name of it, someone here may remember her name. She's middle eastern descent I think. Her name began with an Sao or something. Her entire profile is just trashing white people. "White people are evil, they don't understand" stuff like that all over. I'd always have someone quote tweeting her on my feed.









She seems nice.
 

autoduelist

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The only time i ever hear AllLivesMatter is in response to Black Lives Matter, But the problem is that the people who actually use this term dont understand what "Black Lives Matter" actually means.

In their minds when they see BLM they think it means Black Lives Matter more, but in reality it just means Black Lives Matter too.
No, we understand exactly what you think it means. But we also know you won't let us say any other variant, including 'blue' or 'all', and therefore reject your attempt to control others as racist, authoritiaran garbage.

If it truly means nothing more than the very obvious 'black lives matter too', then surely you will feel comfortable saying it about white people, correct? Perhaps try chanting that. Because if you can't, that clearly means there is something far deeper at work than you claim, as is obvious to everyone.

Not to mention, if all it means is 'too', then... why say it? What kind of gutter racist thinks they need to say one race matters as if it is even up for question? Who are they talking to, themselves? That lives matter is a given to the vast majority of the population, and by the time we get down to the small percentage of people who treat lives as if they don't matter we get ourselves deep into the thick of a discussion the very people who claim 'black lives matter' refuse to have.

This is standard language control of the left. Make a divisive, racially charged statement, then order everyone else to say it. Anyone who doesn't is labeled 'racist', which self validates the cult of identity politics. Meanwhile, you hide behind it claiming we misunderstand you, while you flagrantly misrepresent the position of others. 'Kneel or we ruin you'.
 

I_D

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Which part of BLM includes other races? Most of what I've seen from BLM "leaders" is that they care only about black lives when they're taken by police officers, and especially white police officers.

Why is not relevant? Does it not stand to reason that higher rates of violent crime would lead to more interactions with police, and that more interactions with police would lead to higher rates of being shot by those police?

If you're committing violent crimes at a rate of 5~6x but being killed at a rate of 2~3x, how is that indicative of some kind of overwhelming bias from police?

This Harvard study from 2016 actually found no racial differences in officer involved shootings, either in the raw data or when contextual factors were taken into account.


It was done by a black American economist who actually went into the study assuming that he would find indication of bias, but it just wasn't present in the data. He was heavily criticized for publishing this study and responded to some of that in this NYT piece. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/upshot/roland-fryer-answers-reader-questions-about-his-police-force-study.html
You're the first person to put up some actual counter-evidence, so you're immediately my favorite person in this thread.

Firstly, their "What we believe" page makes it pretty clear that it's not just about black people:
- "Every day, we recommit to healing ourselves and each other, and to co-creating alongside comrades..."
- "We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people. "
- "To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others. "
- And they cover all of the genders as well.

Secondly, to address the 5-6 / 2-3 ratio; that's still not a great number.
All things being equal, cop-killings should be proportionally equal across the board, regardless of race. In a perfect world, the crime happening at that very moment would dictate the use of deadly force. Any other result must be due to other factors, some of which include bias or discrimination.

But to your source...

It's worth noting that the beginning of this source explicitly states that a bias is present:
"On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities."

The information regarding fatalities is interesting and counters a multitude of other sources. I'll keep reading and get back to you on this one, as it's not exactly short, and certainly not the most exciting thing to read.


This particular part of the abstract though, is critical to the BLM message:
"police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for discrimination "

Recall that the vast majority of black-led riots have occurred after the officers involved in shootings were acquitted of their charges, if any were issued in the first place. Not all of them nowadays, but most of them until very recently.
Considering that even a fraction of officers, even if it's just a minute number, have a propensity for discrimination, giving those persons the charge of a weapon - or even just the power to charge people with crimes - is a big deal. And then seeing how many officers (for all charges, not just cop vs. black stuff) get off scott-free, this is a large part of why people become upset. It's a whole system of corruption, and black people are victims like anybody else in that system. But I've said the government is fucked for ages, so I don't want to get too far off on a tangent.



Again, the point of this thread is to address the retort of "All Lives Matter" versus "Black Lives Matter."
The BLM movement is designed to benefit all people regarding police brutality. Black people just happen to be the group which stands to benefit the most from eliminating such brutality.
Even if there was no inequality, even if all races were brutalized on exactly the same level, the message of BLM would still be the same - brutality needs to end. That's the whole point of the movement.

Responding with "ALM" just proves a complete lack of understanding, as if the whole thing was designed to even address whether certain lives are important or not; which isn't even close to the point.



It is true, man. And yes, cops are trained based on the cities they serve in. I have cops in my family, talk to them all the time. I've studied crime for years. You can't respond to a call in an area ridden with drugs, gangs, and crime like you would in an area that has no crime or gangs. It's not the way the world works. And if your city has a higher gang or drug presence, you're trained to deal with it.

And I already stated that stats do show that blacks are killed at higher rates on the surface, what I did was explain why context might put it into a better perspective than the simple explanation being "cops don't care about black lives."
I'm not disagreeing that cops in various areas receive individualized training (which is dumb, but true).
I'm saying that eliminating deescalation techniques and immediately going for weapons is not how they're trained. It doesn't matter what the situation is, the mission is always to reduce damage, rather than increase it.

I agree with you that being in the middle of the ghetto might make a person more likely to pull their gun out. We're in agreeance.
What I'm saying is that this is because the training isn't good enough, and/or is wrong. The goal of a police officer is to reduce danger, not increase it. Even shooting a rapist caught in the act is still not as desirable of an outcome as catching him and putting him through a trial.

Black people (poor people, really) are more likely to be in dangerous areas. This is true.
That still doesn't mean using extra force is the way to go.


Fake-edit: While reading a source for a different poster, I found this one: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/205003.pdf
"In 1999, the Law Enforcement and Management Administrative Statistics survey reported that among large agencies with 100 or more sworn officers, special gang units existed in 56 percent of all municipal police departments, 50 percent of all sheriff’s departments, 43 percent of all county police agencies, and 20 percent of all state law enforcement agencies (Bureau of Justice Statistics 2001, Table C). These findings suggested that an estimated 360 police gang units existed throughout the country. The recency of this phenomenon is illustrated by the fact that more than 85 percent of all specialized gang units had been established after the mid-to-late 1980s (C. Katz, McGuire and Roncek 2002). "

So yeah, basically everywhere in the US has people trained to handle this kind of thing. So the use of excessive force due to fear isn't really a justifiable argument.
That being said, fear is obviously present; which is why I'm suggesting that the training isn't cutting it, which is a huge part of the problem.



The 'news' outlets who were proven to fabricate their news to deceive their viewers. [cnn, msnbc and many more]
Oh, so like, all of them?
If you can name one single news outlet which doesn't have spin on their information, I'll be eternally grateful.

So you are capable of looking at statistics. Police has in depth statistics not shared publicly on every single arrest. We don't even know how many officers are getting seriously injured during an arrest.

You claim to believe that BLM is a movement for all people. If that was the case, then where was BLM parades when a white man was killed literally the very same/ identical way just a few years prior? We heard nothing from BLM nor MSM, nothing.
Where are BLM parades when black on black killings happen way too often which are by far the biggest problem in black communities.

They only seem to care to start their marches when a black man is killed by a white man and also 'coincidentally' only during a major election year.

But it gets better. Apparently donations to BLM goes into supporting democrat ran candidates. I'm sure it's all just coincidental.
If there was a parade and/or riot every time somebody was killed, there'd be nothing else for people to do. They pick and choose their battles, just like any other movement or person. It's also a whole lot easier when the police are quite clearly being abusive and it's caught on camera.
Black-on-black crime isn't why BLM exists. It's not in their priorities. It may grow to encompass such things, but it's not the point at the moment.

Those things could be coincidental, but probably aren't.
It's not a surprise that politicians would like to use such movements. That's just par for the course.
I don't know much about them, but the descriptions of the co-founders paints them as painfully-democratic.

That doesn't mean police brutality is a problem, though.



Which fact? Where can i find this fact?
It boils down to the statistics we already know - Black people are killed at higher rates (proportionally) than whites. Those statistics also include gang members, so there's where the fact comes from.

Just to note - the BLM protests aren't typically over gang members, so this whole tangent isn't really all that relevant.
But, just for fun...
This source can be rather eye-opening. Be warned, it's a heck of a read: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/205003.pdf

Noteworthy bits:
"Officers admitted to attacking known gang members and falsely accusing them of crimes they had not committed. "
"The ensuing investigation revealed that officers were routinely choking and punching gang members for the sole purpose of intimidation. "
"In several other instances, officers had planted drugs on gang members to make arrests. "
"Police gang units across the country were coming under close scrutiny for overly aggressive tactics and other police misconduct. "

And there's plenty of sources to choose from regarding the post-arrest procedures involving different races:
1
2
3
4
5
6
(To summarize: Blacks and Hispanics get far worse treatment than other races.)
 

mickaus

Gold Member
May 30, 2019
160
141
350

Australian senators do not think all lives matter.
When a previously labeled xenophobe like Pauline Hanson is right and every other senator is too scared to admit it, something is deeply wrong with the political class. I think I might vote for her party next election, too much PC parties that don't actually do anything worthwhile in Australia.
 

betrayal

Member
Feb 2, 2018
1,085
1,484
395
It boils down to the statistics we already know - Black people are killed at higher rates (proportionally) than whites. Those statistics also include gang members, so there's where the fact comes from.

Just to note - the BLM protests aren't typically over gang members, so this whole tangent isn't really all that relevant.
But, just for fun...
This source can be rather eye-opening. Be warned, it's a heck of a read: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/205003.pdf

Noteworthy bits:
"Officers admitted to attacking known gang members and falsely accusing them of crimes they had not committed. "
"The ensuing investigation revealed that officers were routinely choking and punching gang members for the sole purpose of intimidation. "
"In several other instances, officers had planted drugs on gang members to make arrests. "
"Police gang units across the country were coming under close scrutiny for overly aggressive tactics and other police misconduct. "

And there's plenty of sources to choose from regarding the post-arrest procedures involving different races:
1
2
3
4
5
6
(To summarize: Blacks and Hispanics get far worse treatment than other races.)
Thanks for the effort you put into the posts. I know of several studies (including https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/) and of course they come to the conclusion that blacks die disproportionately often through police violence ("Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites."). This is all true.

But again, because it is so very important. Correlation does not imply causation.

From the study (and many other as well): "Recent national data identified few differences between blacks and whites in the frequency of most forms of police contact, including requests for police assistance, reporting of crime or neighborhood disturbances, and involuntary street stops."

So what does this mean? Black people, although clearly underrepresented in the US American population, have about as much police contact as white Americans. This is primarily not about active controls by the police, but events where the police are called in. The numbers have been constant for many years. Everybody can fact-check this by using google and checking the statistics provided by the Bureau of Justice.

-> What follows is this: Yes, black people die disproportionately more often through police violence, but they also have disproportionately more contact with the police (about same as white people), which was not actively initiated by the police.

-> The skin color cannot be the reason that more black people die by police violence. It is the numbers. Simple mathematics and statistics, independent of skin colour.


And now you better brace yourself. Because now comes a crystal-clear, comprehensible statement, which is supported by all studies and official statistics, and which everyone can understand and double check on their own. I actually encourage people to do it. This is not a twisting of numbers, but simple fact-based and mathematical logic hat cannot be influenced by morals or ethnicity:
Statistically, black people have a lower chance of dying during a police operation than white people, measured by the percentage of their involvement in police operations.

Trump or his election team could post this clear correlation daily on Twitter and they would destroy BLM. Anyone with 20 minutes time can come to this realization and destroy BLM.
 
Last edited:

Saiyu

Junior Member
Mar 21, 2007
719
67
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You're the first person to put up some actual counter-evidence, so you're immediately my favorite person in this thread.

Firstly, their "What we believe" page makes it pretty clear that it's not just about black people:
- "Every day, we recommit to healing ourselves and each other, and to co-creating alongside comrades..."
- "We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people. "
- "To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others. "
- And they cover all of the genders as well.

Secondly, to address the 5-6 / 2-3 ratio; that's still not a great number.
All things being equal, cop-killings should be proportionally equal across the board, regardless of race. In a perfect world, the crime happening at that very moment would dictate the use of deadly force. Any other result must be due to other factors, some of which include bias or discrimination.

But to your source...

It's worth noting that the beginning of this source explicitly states that a bias is present:
"On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities."

The information regarding fatalities is interesting and counters a multitude of other sources. I'll keep reading and get back to you on this one, as it's not exactly short, and certainly not the most exciting thing to read.


This particular part of the abstract though, is critical to the BLM message:
"police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for discrimination "

Recall that the vast majority of black-led riots have occurred after the officers involved in shootings were acquitted of their charges, if any were issued in the first place. Not all of them nowadays, but most of them until very recently.
Considering that even a fraction of officers, even if it's just a minute number, have a propensity for discrimination, giving those persons the charge of a weapon - or even just the power to charge people with crimes - is a big deal. And then seeing how many officers (for all charges, not just cop vs. black stuff) get off scott-free, this is a large part of why people become upset. It's a whole system of corruption, and black people are victims like anybody else in that system. But I've said the government is fucked for ages, so I don't want to get too far off on a tangent.



Again, the point of this thread is to address the retort of "All Lives Matter" versus "Black Lives Matter."
The BLM movement is designed to benefit all people regarding police brutality. Black people just happen to be the group which stands to benefit the most from eliminating such brutality.
Even if there was no inequality, even if all races were brutalized on exactly the same level, the message of BLM would still be the same - brutality needs to end. That's the whole point of the movement.

Responding with "ALM" just proves a complete lack of understanding, as if the whole thing was designed to even address whether certain lives are important or not; which isn't even close to the point.




I'm not disagreeing that cops in various areas receive individualized training (which is dumb, but true).
I'm saying that eliminating deescalation techniques and immediately going for weapons is not how they're trained. It doesn't matter what the situation is, the mission is always to reduce damage, rather than increase it.

I agree with you that being in the middle of the ghetto might make a person more likely to pull their gun out. We're in agreeance.
What I'm saying is that this is because the training isn't good enough, and/or is wrong. The goal of a police officer is to reduce danger, not increase it. Even shooting a rapist caught in the act is still not as desirable of an outcome as catching him and putting him through a trial.

Black people (poor people, really) are more likely to be in dangerous areas. This is true.
That still doesn't mean using extra force is the way to go.


Fake-edit: While reading a source for a different poster, I found this one: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/205003.pdf
"In 1999, the Law Enforcement and Management Administrative Statistics survey reported that among large agencies with 100 or more sworn officers, special gang units existed in 56 percent of all municipal police departments, 50 percent of all sheriff’s departments, 43 percent of all county police agencies, and 20 percent of all state law enforcement agencies (Bureau of Justice Statistics 2001, Table C). These findings suggested that an estimated 360 police gang units existed throughout the country. The recency of this phenomenon is illustrated by the fact that more than 85 percent of all specialized gang units had been established after the mid-to-late 1980s (C. Katz, McGuire and Roncek 2002). "

So yeah, basically everywhere in the US has people trained to handle this kind of thing. So the use of excessive force due to fear isn't really a justifiable argument.
That being said, fear is obviously present; which is why I'm suggesting that the training isn't cutting it, which is a huge part of the problem.




Oh, so like, all of them?
If you can name one single news outlet which doesn't have spin on their information, I'll be eternally grateful.


If there was a parade and/or riot every time somebody was killed, there'd be nothing else for people to do. They pick and choose their battles, just like any other movement or person. It's also a whole lot easier when the police are quite clearly being abusive and it's caught on camera.
Black-on-black crime isn't why BLM exists. It's not in their priorities. It may grow to encompass such things, but it's not the point at the moment.

Those things could be coincidental, but probably aren't.
It's not a surprise that politicians would like to use such movements. That's just par for the course.
I don't know much about them, but the descriptions of the co-founders paints them as painfully-democratic.

That doesn't mean police brutality is a problem, though.




It boils down to the statistics we already know - Black people are killed at higher rates (proportionally) than whites. Those statistics also include gang members, so there's where the fact comes from.

Just to note - the BLM protests aren't typically over gang members, so this whole tangent isn't really all that relevant.
But, just for fun...
This source can be rather eye-opening. Be warned, it's a heck of a read: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/205003.pdf

Noteworthy bits:
"Officers admitted to attacking known gang members and falsely accusing them of crimes they had not committed. "
"The ensuing investigation revealed that officers were routinely choking and punching gang members for the sole purpose of intimidation. "
"In several other instances, officers had planted drugs on gang members to make arrests. "
"Police gang units across the country were coming under close scrutiny for overly aggressive tactics and other police misconduct. "

And there's plenty of sources to choose from regarding the post-arrest procedures involving different races:
1
2
3
4
5
6
(To summarize: Blacks and Hispanics get far worse treatment than other races.)
There is also this study

"Many people ask whether black or white citizens are more likely to be shot and why. We found that violent crime rates are the driving force behind fatal shootings,” Cesario said. “Our data show that the rate of crime by each racial group correlates with the likelihood of citizens from that racial group being shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of white people committing crimes, white people are more likely to be shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of black people committing crimes, black people are more likely to be shot. It is the best predictor we have of fatal police shootings.”
 
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NH1982

Member
Jul 9, 2019
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The problem that the black lives matter movement faces right now is the disconnect between their initial message and what they have let it become

Everybody can support the actual message of the organisation because yes, to most people black lives do matter, as do white, yellow, brown, red,blue and green lives. The problem arises when people get ostracized due to mentioning the same sentence with any other color than black and it's made out to be some shameful, disgraceful thing to say. At which point your message becomes ONLY black lives matter and that is a message I and many cannot support.

It may shake some brains but here is some hateful truth :

EVERY LIVE MATTERS, NONE MORE OR LESS THAN ANY OTHER

If you try to propogate any other message I cannot support your movement
 

cryptoadam

... and he cannot lie
Feb 21, 2018
16,488
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Why is there an obsession with proportinality? Are marxists brains so mushed ?

So if the cops only killed 10% blacks they need to go kill another 3% ?

What if they kill 80% whites one year. Well thats to much the white population is 65%. How do they solve the problem go kill more latinos and asians to balance it out?

Not everything in life is going to be proportional. Policing isnt baking a cake.