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Opinion Drama The persecution complex of Japanese games by some of it's fans.

Oct 2, 2019
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So I've been meaning to write about this topic for quite some time and i feel it's something worth discussing.
" At least the Japanese still make games not movies!"
" Japan doesn't fill it's games with loot boxes and other ahady practices"
" No game company in Japan is worse than EA or Ubisoft"
" Censorship is killing Japanese games! "
" The west doesn't care about Japanese games because their don't make FPS/TPS movie games with shiny graphics!"
Etc, you see stuff like this all over gaming boards and forums, Neogaf is no exception.
To study this complex we need to go back to 2008-09.
The Xbox 360 is king and Call of Duty Modern Warfare is smashing the sales charts.
American and western games are dominating the conversation, nobody talked about JRPGs anymore now everything is TESIV: Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Mass Effect, Metal Gear Solid came and won some GOTYs but it wasn't really seen as a big or in the same league as Gears of War or Uncharted 2, everyone mocked it's long cutscenes, dialogue and that's it's 5 hours of gameplay with 5 hours of cutscenes.
Resident Evil 5 was criticized for not being able to shoot and Move at the same time, some gamers were saying Dead Space was superior.
Over in Japan Keiji Inafune was at Capcom saying the age of Japanese dominance of the gaming market is coming to an end and that they need to outsource some of their IPs to western developers to survive!
At the time the Nintendo Wii was dominating the sales but not on the software side of things, Japan was in love with the NDS and PSP, and since it was far cheaper to develop for them than any of the HD consoles most of Japan Studios chose to focus on the handheld space instead.
The financial crisis hit Japanese videogame companies hard and no one was willing to take any big risks.
Meanwhile Phil Fish an indie "dev" who just released yet another 2d game with shitty pixel art, said the "Japanese games just suck" when asked about his opinion by a Japanese man.
Around this time people on gaming boards started to get annoyed with to these attacks on beloved Japanese franchises and a growing sentiment started growing around this culture of every Japanese game is good but the western gaming media outlets just keep shooting them down.
" Why was Skyrim 2011 GOTY? Dark Souls is way better!"
For a while i shared this sentiment since i was a JRPG fan and the PS3 had so few of them around that time i bought/tried every JRPG i could find, which lead to shitty experiences with games from Idea Factory the Kings of horrible games who for some reason people still give money to!
Of course this situation turned around and Japanese companies finally found their footing in HD development and things are way better now then they ever were 10 years ago.
Why do i bring this up now? Because some people still hold this mentality of Japanese games good(Deep gameplay, gameplay 1st!,waifus) Western games bad(movie games, appeal to casuals and and are shallow, ugly women).
If you criticize a Japanese games now adays you'll be accused of not "getting it" and to go back to your "movie" and "pew pew" games.
This victim complex is still around even with various Japanese games are successful both critically and commercially, god help you if you critiuqe one of the sacred cows of their e.g (Yakuza, Fire Emblem, any From Software game).
Needless to say this stance doesn't help Japanese games succeed or help them to reach a bigger audiencebby addressing some lingring design decision that needs to be change e.g (Better netcode and online in general from Nintendo/Capcom, etc).
So what are your thoughts on this matter? Do you see it as a problem or don't even think it's worth mentioning? I know some of my points seems disjointed but I've been writing this for a few days now and on my phone no less! So it might not come out exactly as i envisioned it, but i hope my point got across to you.
 
Dec 25, 2018
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" At least the Japanese still make games not movies!"

Only the bigger Japanese Companies do this and even then the sales speak for themselves regarding games like Final Fantasy.

" Japan doesn't fill it's games with loot boxes and other shady practices"

For the most part, they don't. Only a few do it which tend to cater to hardcore whales/otakus.

Last Generation was bad for Japanese games but that case is not relevant now. You see the likes of NeiR and Persona doing a million which is a feat not even considered possible many years ago.

I don't think it is fair to say that Yakuza is a sacred cow given the games never sold a lot until 0 proved it wasn't a GTA clone.

Hell, the Trails games still don't get the sales they deserve because they are pretty complex games and you need to play from the beginning which is not possible for most people these days.

Any gamer worth their salt will appreciate any game regardless of origin but I do think some forget that Japanese games were considered the pinnacle of quality in Gameplay and Story, but now they dominate in Gameplay only as the story cannot keep up with the Western side due to their Global Experience.
 
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Oct 2, 2019
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" At least the Japanese still make games not movies!"

Only the bigger Japanese Companies do this and even then the sales speak for themselves regarding games like Final Fantasy.

" Japan doesn't fill it's games with loot boxes and other shady practices"

For the most part, they don't. Only a few do it which tend to cater to hardcore whales/otakus.

Last Generation was bad for Japanese games but that case is not relevant now. You see the likes of NeiR and Persona doing a million which is a feat not even considered possible many years ago.

I don't think it is fair to say that Yakuza is a sacred cow given the games never sold a lot until 0 proved it wasn't a GTA clone.

Hell, the Trails games still don't get the sales they deserve because they are pretty complex games and you need to play from the beginning which is not possible for most people these days.

Any gamer worth their salt will appreciate any game regardless of origin but I do think some forget that Japanese games were considered the pinnacle of quality in Gameplay and Story, but now they dominate in Gameplay only as the story cannot keep up with the Western side due to their Global Experience.
Yakuza not selling much in the west isn't an excuse to hand wave it's legit problems, and it has like 10 games since it came out in 2004!
As for lootboxes and MTX no need to look further than Capcom's practices with games like Asura's Wrath, SFxT and SF5, and the less said about the mobile space the better.
As for Japanese games not selling much in general, it's a stupid argumant, i LOVE the Trails series but they have a number of problems that needs to be addressed and critiuqed.
 

RealGassy

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Sep 22, 2019
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Meanwhile Phil Fish an indie "dev" who just released yet another 2d game with shitty pixel art, said the "Japanese games just suck" when asked about his opinion by a Japanese man.
When Phil released Fez, the market wasn't all that saturated with indie pixel art games AFAIK.
It was more towards the beginning of the indie "gold rush".
His statement that "Japanese games just suck" wasn't really far off given the games out at the time IIRC.
They do kinda suck to this day and suffer from many of the same tropes.

Don't take this as a X is better than Y statement.
 
Oct 2, 2019
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When Phil released Fez, the market wasn't all that saturated with indie pixel art games AFAIK.
It was more towards the beginning of the indie "gold rush".
His statement that "Japanese games just suck" wasn't really far off given the games out at the time IIRC.
They do kinda suck to this day and suffer from many of the same tropes.

Don't take this as a X is better than Y statement.
Care to give an example? I don't necessarily disagree that some of the console Japanese games were bad at the time like I said Idea Factory games are some of the worst I've played but i'm curious what are the games you find bad these days?
 
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MrRogers

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I prefer japanese games (as well as eastern european) as they havent completely swallowed the progressive corporate trends of clown world inc. They certainly are pressured by the west and companies like sony have relinquished control to western prog soypackers. But overall their themes and narratives are free of most of the ideas that have emerged from western elite, coastal, and uni bubbles in the last 10 years.

I find generally their game mechanics and art design to be on a elevated plane as well. Also, i dislike the trends of walking sims, pretentious virtue signaling stories, bland character designs (strong wymen is the new bald space marine), openworlds and gaas, all of which remain the exception, not the rule in eastern development.
 
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RealGassy

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So you're not a fan of the genre or someone who outgrew it? Cause that's not specific.
Nah, the genre is completely coincidental.
JRPGs simply tend to perfectly capture and accentuate the essence of everything wrong with Japanese games.

They treat the player like a complete moron and have almost zero respect for players time.
This is basically the pattern in most Japanese games, but in JRPGs it's just way more pronounced.

Do JRPGs have to suck? No, but for some fucking inexplicable reason Japanese devs tend to stick to shitty tropes and shitty gameplay mechanics as if their life depended on it.

It's as if they are scared shitless to make a game which requires more than 10 braincells to play or does something new.
 
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Oct 2, 2019
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I prefer japanese games (as well as eastern european) as they havent completely swallowed the progressive corporate trends of clown world inc. They certainly are pressured by the west and companies like sony have relinquished control to western prog soypackers. But overall their themes and narratives are free of most of the ideas that have emerged from western elite, coastal, and uni bubbles in the last 10 years.

I find generally their game mechanics and art design to be on a elevated plane as well. Also, i dislike the trends of walking sims, pretentious virtue signaling stories, bland character designs (strong wymen is the new bald space marine), openworlds and gaas, all of which remain the exception, not the rule in eastern development.
This general attitude towards western games is as "toxic" as the persecution complex Japanese games fans have.
This obsession with politics and seeing wrong think in every game is exactly why discussion on this fourm has gone to shit, and you needn't look further than the whole Disco Elysum shit show.
I'm sorry to say but it seems you're post is exactly what i made this whole thread for.
I wonder where is the progressive brain washing in Rainbow Six Seige, God of War, Diablo 3, Fallout 4 or Assassin's Creed for example?
 

Geki-D

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" At least the Japanese still make games not movies!"
Are there actually people who say this? And they manage to keep a straight face as they say it? No, I guess they don't make movies, they make books. Only reason you keep the pad in your hand is to press X to scroll the text. The Yakuza games are a good example, 85% of your time in that game is spent watching fmvs & reading text.
 
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Oct 2, 2019
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Nah, the genre is completely coincidental.
JRPGs simply tend to perfectly capture and accentuate the essence of everything wrong with Japanese games.

They treat the player like a complete moron and have almost zero respect for players time.
This is basically the pattern in most Japanese games, but in JRPGs it's just way more pronounced.

Do JRPGs have to suck? No, but for some fucking inexplicable reason Japanese devs tend to stick to shitty tropes and shitty gameplay mechanics as if their life depended on it.

It's as if they are scared shitless to make a game which requires more than 10 braincells to play or does something new.
You're talking in general terms again my friend, but let me say what i understood from your post.
1- Either you don't like turn based combat or battle transitions.
2-you don't like that most of the story and writing is aimed at teenagers, with school settings and the anime aesthetic and tropes of anime is present in most of them.
3- you don't like grinding.
So i concluded you've played either Persona 5, Dragon Quest XI, or Xenoblade 2 recently and came out disgusted with the whole experience which means traditional JRPGs aren't for you, if your issue with it being "anime" then tough luck.
You could try some Japanese ARPGs or hybrids like the Tales of games they maybe your cup of tea.
 
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Herr Edgy

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For sake of simplicity, we can generalize what 'Japanese' and 'Western' games are. That means, because it is a generalization, that we are talking about averages or rather, perception of averages.

For me, Western games tend to check following boxes:
- Environmental storytelling
- Intuitive, basic controls
- Basic, uninspired gameplay
- High budget/tech
- Dialogue is mostly people standing in circles
- Dialogue choices
- Multiplayer
- Competition
- Story: Player agency
- Gameplay: Game designer agency
- Little replay value
If indie:
- quirky
- 'funny'
- a single unique mechanic, rest built on top

Japanese games tend to do the following:
- Linear
- Tight and more complex controls
- Systems driven gameplay (does not exclude action gameplay, see the death mechanic of Dark Souls)
- Low-Medium budget/tech
- Cut scenes driven
- Single player
- Story: Character agency
- Gameplay: Player agency
- high replay value due to systems driven gameplay
If indie:
- dunno tbh

Personally, I enjoy Japanese games much more than Western games because I feel like they require me to use my brain more. They are closer to what games are supposed to be, in my opinion. The argument 'Japanese games aren't movies' is ill-formulated, but there is some truth to it. There are many JRPGs that are story-driven and have plenty of cut scenes to boot. Xenoblade, 10 hours of excellent cut scenes, for example. The difference is that gameplay and story are equally valued - for 10 hours of cut scenes you have ~40-50 hours of gameplay. You don't watch the game play itself, but you also have plenty of breathing room to sit back and relax. Those are mostly in two different situations though, and that's the point. With Western games, I feel like the attempt to bring across a message, an atmosphere, or a story takes precedence over the medium that is used to bring it across - which is gameplay. Gameplay exists, but it's usually just a vessel rather than a message on its own that exists alongsid the actual story, so the gameplay in itself isn't good - it's there to move forward with the story and to give the player some agency in it, seperating it from movies.
However, since gameplay is often an afterthought or just not as valued as the overall presentation, it often feels like watching a movie. The presentation strives to be as much movie-like or 'immersive/realistic' as possibly, but makes a lot of assumptions to make the experience as smooth as possible - to the point that it feels superficial.

I don't enjoy playing games that want me to feel like an action hero, because that intent in itself destroys my immersion and my interest. Even though, on surface level, I have some agency, in the end the 'supposed' player experience is designed in a very limiting way (think of Fallout 4 dialogue choices, which most of the time are only visual in nature). Instead, if I'm left to my own devices with systems driven gameplay, I actually feel good figuring some mechanics or the application thereof out on my own, because it does not feel like the developer moved my hand, even if he designed the overall experience.

Of course, that's still a generalization. FF XV is more of what I'd consider a Western game and I didn't enjoy it at all - Hades, a new Western game, made by Supergiant games, is closer to what I believe a Japanese game to be - systems-driven and the story, while it exists and is well written for as little as there is, exists separately to the gameplay, mostly. Clearing chambers and killing demons relates to the setting and the characters, but ultimately, has no direct connection to plot. If you are in the hub there is some story going on, while you are clearing chambers that is what you do. The gameplay mechanics are the motivation to keep going, whereas with FF XV, you fight because the story demands you fight in this next story bit now.

I think the argument comes down to the player motivation: are you fighting because the game loop is addictive or are you fighting because the game designer wanted to immerse you in an encounter?
More often than not, the systems driven nature of Japanese games gives the player a reason to keep going - in Dark Souls, it's retrieving your souls, leveling up, finding that new weapon/build and beating that boss. There is action combat, but the combat itself is not the rewarding part (Souls combat is simple, even if generally difficult) - it's figuring out a boss, satisfying the curiosity of what comes after - the mere act of 'advancing' is made a mechanic in itself that makes the more simple mechanics fun. There is a layer above immediate combat - retrieval of souls, mystique that makes you explore, difficulty that makes you try out new builds.
That layer often doesn't exist in Western games.

As for the persecution complex you mention, I don't really think it exists any more than the persecution complex of any kind of fanboy - be it PS4 fanboys, XBox fanboys, Last of Us fanboys or Nintendo fanboys or anything else, constantly proclaiming their camp to be the best and criticism doesn't fly.
 
Oct 2, 2019
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Are there actually people who say this? And they manage to keep a straight face as they say it? No, I guess they don't make movies, they make books. Only reason you keep the pad in your hand is to press X to scroll the text. The Yakuza games are a good example, 85% of your time in that game is spent watching fmvs & reading text.
Oh yes they exist and in this very fourm.
And be careful you've said the unspoken truth about Yakuza, they'll be coming for you uncultured filth!
 

Roni

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I find a lot of redemption when I look to Japan for games. Metal Gear and Resident Evil were THE franchises for me for most of my childhood.

It definitely got a bit touch 'n go there for a minute during the 360 days, as you mentioned. We still feel the difference to this day. Capcom is killing it right now, sure, but there was a time there in between 1996 to 2002 where they were putting out hit after hit.

It was this weird thing though, the market was getting more casual with the newer, bigger consoles that needed massive sales to justify R&D and the west started to make games a bit easier and a bit more genre focused. Thing is, genres are very different country to country. Capcom did try to make Resident Evil as big a thing as Call of Duty and look what that got us: 6 average movies and 10 years of action gameplay. It's not an exaggeration to say some Japanese genres nearly died when things focused a bit more on the US during the 360 days.

For my money, though, gameplay is king and Japan has a clear advantage when it comes to that. Far more variety in game design and much more average depth.

Japan has this feature, in my perception, that its games often attract gamers looking for dense games with lots of systems to handle at the same time in gameplay. So I don't find the defensive sentiment justified. I reckon they are superior games, on average.
 
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Hypegaming

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It'd be easy to blanket the west or the east as being better, but in reality both sides make creative masterpieces.

The Witcher 3, God of War, TLOU

Persona 5, Bloodborne, Breath of the Wild

Both sides have their good and bad games and should learn and adapt from each other.
 

VysePSU

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Yeah, I've never agreed with the notion that only Japanese developers make good games.

Even with the bullshit from EA, Activision and Ubisoft in recent years, they aren't representative of every western developer and publisher. The fact is you would have had to have played every new game, including the ones that aren't marketed as much and are overshadowed by bigger releases, and obviously most people don't because there simply isn't enough time, money and interest.

It's just as ridiculous as the console warring. Of course there's always going to be a little bias in our opinions but we should always try to keep an open mind regardless. Eventually you want to go back and play the games you missed which I think is only natural as our industry continues to evolve and if that game happens to come from Japan, China, Europe, America, wherever, what else really matters other than how much you enjoyed playing it?
 
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Stefan.North

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So I've been meaning to write about this topic for quite some time and i feel it's something worth discussing.
" At least the Japanese still make games not movies!"
" Japan doesn't fill it's games with loot boxes and other ahady practices"
" No game company in Japan is worse than EA or Ubisoft"
" Censorship is killing Japanese games! "
" The west doesn't care about Japanese games because their don't make FPS/TPS movie games with shiny graphics!"
Etc, you see stuff like this all over gaming boards and forums, Neogaf is no exception.
To study this complex we need to go back to 2008-09.
The Xbox 360 is king and Call of Duty Modern Warfare is smashing the sales charts.
American and western games are dominating the conversation, nobody talked about JRPGs anymore now everything is TESIV: Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Mass Effect, Metal Gear Solid came and won some GOTYs but it wasn't really seen as a big or in the same league as Gears of War or Uncharted 2, everyone mocked it's long cutscenes, dialogue and that's it's 5 hours of gameplay with 5 hours of cutscenes.
Resident Evil 5 was criticized for not being able to shoot and Move at the same time, some gamers were saying Dead Space was superior.
Over in Japan Keiji Inafune was at Capcom saying the age of Japanese dominance of the gaming market is coming to an end and that they need to outsource some of their IPs to western developers to survive!
At the time the Nintendo Wii was dominating the sales but not on the software side of things, Japan was in love with the NDS and PSP, and since it was far cheaper to develop for them than any of the HD consoles most of Japan Studios chose to focus on the handheld space instead.
The financial crisis hit Japanese videogame companies hard and no one was willing to take any big risks.
Meanwhile Phil Fish an indie "dev" who just released yet another 2d game with shitty pixel art, said the "Japanese games just suck" when asked about his opinion by a Japanese man.
Around this time people on gaming boards started to get annoyed with to these attacks on beloved Japanese franchises and a growing sentiment started growing around this culture of every Japanese game is good but the western gaming media outlets just keep shooting them down.
" Why was Skyrim 2011 GOTY? Dark Souls is way better!"
For a while i shared this sentiment since i was a JRPG fan and the PS3 had so few of them around that time i bought/tried every JRPG i could find, which lead to shitty experiences with games from Idea Factory the Kings of horrible games who for some reason people still give money to!
Of course this situation turned around and Japanese companies finally found their footing in HD development and things are way better now then they ever were 10 years ago.
Why do i bring this up now? Because some people still hold this mentality of Japanese games good(Deep gameplay, gameplay 1st!,waifus) Western games bad(movie games, appeal to casuals and and are shallow, ugly women).
If you criticize a Japanese games now adays you'll be accused of not "getting it" and to go back to your "movie" and "pew pew" games.
This victim complex is still around even with various Japanese games are successful both critically and commercially, god help you if you critiuqe one of the sacred cows of their e.g (Yakuza, Fire Emblem, any From Software game).
Needless to say this stance doesn't help Japanese games succeed or help them to reach a bigger audiencebby addressing some lingring design decision that needs to be change e.g (Better netcode and online in general from Nintendo/Capcom, etc).
So what are your thoughts on this matter? Do you see it as a problem or don't even think it's worth mentioning? I know some of my points seems disjointed but I've been writing this for a few days now and on my phone no less! So it might not come out exactly as i envisioned it, but i hope my point got across to you.

"I know some of my points seems disjointed", well that's an understatement. First you point out to the downfall in quality of JPN games around 2009-2012, then say they were victims of neglection (sort off) in the west, and in the end you are iritated that many people are setting JPN games on a high pedestol and having victim complex.

I don't quite know what you want to talk about.
 
Oct 2, 2019
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"I know some of my points seems disjointed", well that's an understatement. First you point out to the downfall in quality of JPN games around 2009-2012, then say they were victims of neglection (sort off) in the west, and in the end you are iritated that many people are setting JPN games on a high pedestol and having victim complex.

I don't quite know what you want to talk about.
The first part was a recap of the causes of this victim complex.
2007-2012 were bad years for Japanese videogames, they were out of touch with what the consumer want.
And i'm irritated because as a fan of Japanese games i want them to improved and reach new hights, and this won't be achieved with this hand waving and attacking any criticism pointed their way.
Capcom would'nt be at the place they are now without the criticism their practices and games received.
 
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Stefan.North

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The first part was a recap of the causes of this victim complex.
2007-2012 were bad years for Japanese videogames, they were out of touch with what the consumer want.
And i'm irritated because as a fan of Japanese games i want them to improved and reach new hights, and this won't be achieved with this hand waving and attacking any criticism pointed their way.
Capcom would'nt be at the place they are now without the criticism their practices and games received.
So we need to talk bad about japanese games?

Well to answer your point how I see it. I don't think critics (online sites, youtubers, gaming magazines) are giving games a pass if they are from Japan. It's only some margin of gamers on forums and chatrooms doing that, and I doubt they influence 0.0001% developers efforts.

Just IMO
 
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manuels

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It depends... if you are for example looking for polished gameplay/combat/skill in a single player character action game or role playing game you only find it in jrpgs.
 
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lyan

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Off my head 2007-2012 have Monster Hunter 2 portable, Demon's Souls & Dark Souls, Devil May Cry 4, Valkyria Chronicles, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, Xenoblade Chronicles, Bayonetta, SF4 & MVC3 so I think the problem is marketing not doing enough to the good games at that time. As a result when the worse games got more reach than they deserve (relatively speaking) so fans who know where to look find critics to the whole country's overall output to be unjust.
 
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Varteras

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I love a lot of Japanese games but I get tired of hearing about how they get shit on by the West and it's always made to sound like "it's because they're Japanese". OR! It could simply be that many Japanese games just aren't that good by the standards of many. Mind you these complaints are made while games like Super Mario Odyssey, Breath of the Wild, Persona 5, Resident Evil 2, Dragon Quest XI, Super Smash Bros, Final Fantasy XIV, Metal Gear Solid V, Mario Kart 8, Nier: Automata, Bloodborne, Bayonetta 2, Monster Hunter World, Sekiro.... the list goes on... are all receiving incredibly high praise, most have enjoyed great sales, and no one is docking them because "they're Japanese". :messenger_expressionless:
 

brap

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OP is a weeb ashamed to be a weeb.

The best japanese games are better than the best western games. Too many western games have guns. What's the western equivalent of DMC? God of War? Japanese games have way more variety. Also I needed an excuse to post these. Sure it's cherrypicking but you get the point.


 
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Oct 2, 2019
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OP is a weeb ashamed to be a weeb.

The best japanese games are better than the best western games. Too many western games have guns. What's the western equivalent of DMC? God of War? Japanese games have way more variety. Also I needed an excuse to post these. Sure it's cherrypicking but you get the point.


A weeb is someone who thinks everything Japanese is great, in short a zealot.
You're one it seems, but i digress the picture you posted is funny taken straight from the asshole of /v/, cherry picked is an understatment.
Read the OP brap or go back to bitching about commies over at the Disco Elysium circus show.
 

petran79

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Ever since the 80s, American, European and Japanese games philosophy has not changed as much. Even if many Western developers moved to consoles, though much later than their Japanese colleagues.

Best Western games were made on computers (simulation, strategy, fps, adventure games, crpg etc), while best arcade and console games were made by Japanese developers.

Even with the advent of consoles and western developers moving there, even if it meant downgrading their games, situation hasnt changed that much.
 
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brap

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A weeb is someone who thinks everything Japanese is great, in short a zealot.
You're one it seems, but i digress the picture you posted is funny taken straight from the asshole of /v/, cherry picked is an understatment.
Read the OP brap or go back to bitching about commies over at the Disco Elysium circus show.
I'm not reading your giant wall of text. Use spaces for ffs and I will.
Also I'm not a weeb because I'm sick and tired of realistic brown, gray, green worlds where you play as some insufferable angsty unlikable character. I had my fill of that last gen. Angsty annoying unlikable female characters are the same as last gens bald white space marines just without a dick. Same fucking games we've all played for years. Hey bro you wanna play more CoD? It's totally different now because you can play as an angry generic woman instead of an angry generic man!!

Why do i bring this up now? Because some people still hold this mentality of Japanese games good(Deep gameplay, gameplay 1st!,waifus) Western games bad(movie games, appeal to casuals and and are shallow, ugly women).
Nothing you said here was wrong. Some people would rather watch the newest disney superhero movie over something good.
 
Oct 2, 2019
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I'm not reading your giant wall of text. Use spaces for ffs
I see discussing this subject with you is fruitless.
Also I'm not a weeb
Sure, first you accuse me of being one, now you Admit your self that your the self hating weeb.
How shocking (not).
except it's not episodic
How is it not?
 

brap

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now you Admit your self that your the self hating weeb.
Untrue. You can shit on the terrible state of western games without being a weeb.

I see discussing this subject with you is fruitless.
Apparently with you too since you can't be bother to add a few paragraph breaks in the op. Really shows how much you want to discuss this.
 

RealGassy

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1- Either you don't like turn based combat or battle transitions.
I don't mind turn based combat, but turn-based combat has to justify itself.
What does it mean? It means that game needs a certain level of depth, complexity, planning or strategy involved. Or at least have large number of units to control.
Combat in JRPGs are so simple and trivial that all you need is one hand, 10 braincells and a pulse, there is absolutely no reason for them to be turn-based in the first place.
Most "difficulty" - if any - revolves around tolerance for brainlessly wasting time.

2-you don't like that most of the story and writing is aimed at teenagers, with school settings and the anime aesthetic and tropes of anime is present in most of them.
Age is not a good argument. I was pre-teen when FFX came out, and I asked my brother to buy it for me because it was so hyped up in media and I thought it would be good. Instant regret, what an utter garbage in every way imaginable, what an utter embarassment, what a piss.

At the time I was playing Baldurs Gate 2, Icewind Dale, Fallout 2, Jagged Alliance 2, Starcraft, Age of Empires 2, HoMM3, M&M VII, Myth 2, Diablo 2, Commandos 2, etc
There were so many great games coming out on PC at the time, in comparison FFX was (and is) objectively shit game filled with random encounters, running down linear corridors with insultingly simple battle system, bare bones loot system, almost no meaningful customization, infantile cringeworthy dialog and homosexual character designs. Obvious to like a 10 year old.

JRPGs of recent times are almost as creatively bankrupt and retarded as FFX was back then.
DQ XI is perfect example of it. It follows the same FFX template, with slightly less linear corridors, but retaining exact same idiot-proof gameplay mechanics and narrative of NES/SNES game.

3- you don't like grinding.
Of course I don't like grinding. That's an objectively bad mechanic unless you're an autistic simpleton.
JRPGs don't have loot or progression mechanisms intricate and customizible enough for it to be an enjoyable experience.

Having anime aesthetic doesn't mean the game has to be shit, have shit writting or have to be filled with tropes.

To be fair, I think XC2 was enjoyable overall despite so many typical frustrating JRPG bullshit mechanics (field skills, shallow loot system, idiotic grindy sidequests, insane grindy affinity chart bullshit, gacha, etc), what carries it through is an exceptional, and truly outstanding soundtrack, very high production values, unique world design and a combat system which has some depth to it (very rare for a JRPG honestly).

Technically speaking it is possible to make a JRPG which doesn't suck, but it is soooooo rare, because Japanese devs are always actively sabotaging themselves by disrespecting players time, sticking to idiotic tropes and treating their players like complete retards.
 
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I see discussing this subject with you is fruitless.

Sure, first you accuse me of being one, now you Admit your self that your the self hating weeb.
How shocking (not).

How is it not?
None of the developers described it as episodic, they've repeatedly stated that each game is as long as a full length FF game evidenced by the fact that the first game couldn't even fit on one blu-ray and they had to actually make sure it wasn't too long according to Nomura
 
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Keihart

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If the point is that japanese games aren't some holy grail as some people make it out to be, i agree.

Lot's of my favorite games are japanese, but some genres like jrpgs are pretty stagnant. Japanese industry is in way better shape than last gen tho, that's for sure. Capcom seems to be back in almost all of it's glory, and companies like Squaresoft seem to be slowly finding a new pipeline that works for them.

This is not the glory days of the PS2/DS tho, there were tons of good and experimental shit coming from japan in every genre at the time.
I hate with passion all this moe, waifus and husbando shit tho, it's a fucking cancer in aesthetics filling everything with generic art styles, but it sells in japan.
There is probably more money in gatcha idol games than whatever is making Platinum, Capcom or Atlus.
 

Danjin44

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For me it not matter of Japanese games are better or Western games are better, it’s matter of which one I personally prefer. Simply there are far more Japanese games I enjoy than western games.
 
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Punished Miku

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It's not so much a persecution complex as just being a bit older and having a functioning memory. Japanese games were persecuted in the media during the 360 / PS3 era.

1) PS3 development was exceptionally challenging due to the core architecture. This, at the worst possible time, when teams had to also adjust to HD development, was holding some teams back an entire generation.
2) WRPGs and open world games were seen as new to most console gamers who never played them on PC. Japanese games were seen as old and inferior compared to Mass Effect and Oblivion.
3) Games media changed during this same time, led by Kotaku. Kotaku ran inflammatory articles and clickbait headlines that stoked the divide between east and west as much as possible for hate-views. At the same time they did this, they employed Brian Ashcraft to write "culture" articles on Japan daily, highlighting only perverted and weird obscure shit. To many gamers who were too ignorant to know any better, all Japanese people were pedophiles and weirdos with a backwards culture to go along with their inferior games.

In the time since then, Sony turned things around with the PS4 which was easier to develop for. Major Japanese studios mastered HD development, and also mastered open world development and updated their engine tech. Now most of them are ahead of Bethesda. Capcom had to sit out almost the entire PS4 generation to get their RE Engine ready, but now it's paid off. Clickbait media is less influential now because people see it for what it really is. Gamergate exposed media corruption pushing western indie games from developers that were friends of the media without disclosing it. Media pushed western studios as well that they could get easier access to for interviews. Nintendo found their footing after the stumble with Wii U.

Now the stigma is gone, simply because Japanese developers fought back and made some of the best games of this generation - over and over. They killed the narrative that they were inferior through sheer quality and volume of output. Gamers who remember what it was like to be fans of persecuted Japanese games just last generation haven't forgotten.
 

KàIRóS

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These types of threads are always genuinely funny to read, so much hate being thrown for no good reason, it reminds me of my top 10 JRPGs of the decade thread, so much hate was thrown there xD.

The funniest part is when these threads secretly become WRPG vs JRPG threads :messenger_tears_of_joy: like that's when people realize "you know the rest of the genres aren't that different anyways :unsure: so let's keep this discussion to RPGs only lel"

I don't mind turn based combat, but turn-based combat has to justify itself.
What does it mean? It means that game needs a certain level of depth, complexity, planning or strategy involved. Or at least have large number of units to control.
Combat in JRPGs are so simple and trivial that all you need is one hand, 10 braincells and a pulse, there is absolutely no reason for them to be turn-based in the first place.
Most "difficulty" - if any - revolves around tolerance for brainlessly wasting time.


Age is not a good argument. I was pre-teen when FFX came out, and I asked my brother to buy it for me because it was so hyped up in media and I thought it would be good. Instant regret, what an utter garbage in every way imaginable, what an utter embarassment, what a piss.

At the time I was playing Baldurs Gate 2, Icewind Dale, Fallout 2, Jagged Alliance 2, Starcraft, Age of Empires 2, HoMM3, M&M VII, Myth 2, Diablo 2, Commandos 2, etc
There were so many great games coming out on PC at the time, in comparison FFX was (and is) objectively shit game filled with random encounters, running down linear corridors with insultingly simple battle system, bare bones loot system, almost no meaningful customization, infantile cringeworthy dialog and homosexual character designs. Obvious to like a 10 year old.

JRPGs of recent times are almost as creatively bankrupt and retarded as FFX was back then.
DQ XI is perfect example of it. It follows the same FFX template, with slightly less linear corridors, but retaining exact same idiot-proof gameplay mechanics and narrative of NES/SNES game.


Of course I don't like grinding. That's an objectively bad mechanic unless you're an autistic simpleton.
JRPGs don't have loot or progression mechanisms intricate and customizible enough for it to be an enjoyable experience.

Having anime aesthetic doesn't mean the game has to be shit, have shit writting or have to be filled with tropes.

To be fair, I think XC2 was enjoyable overall despite so many typical frustrating JRPG bullshit mechanics (field skills, shallow loot system, idiotic grindy sidequests, insane grindy affinity chart bullshit, gacha, etc), what carries it through is an exceptional, and truly outstanding soundtrack, very high production values, unique world design and a combat system which has some depth to it (very rare for a JRPG honestly).

Technically speaking it is possible to make a JRPG which doesn't suck, but it is soooooo rare, because Japanese devs are always actively sabotaging themselves by disrespecting players time, sticking to idiotic tropes and treating their players like complete retards.

Daaaamn bro, I hadn't laughed so hard here at NeoGAF I almost want to follow you just to see what else you post xD you're like the typical 2000s GameFAQs shitposter, I can almost feel your cringe going through that Tidus laughing seen xD.

I really want to see what other GAF users have to say, there are so many people yet to get triggered by this thread lol.
 
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Northeastmonk

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I really was impressed by how Granblue Fantasy had this whole TV spot and everyone involved was being interviewed. You had couch time with the whole team discussing the game.

If you analyze the con-centric Western approach. You have lead developers arming their weapons and preparing their defenses on social media (mainly Twitter). Updates are given to a very polarized journalist group. Everything feels like it has an agenda when discussing popular AAA games.

Yeah, sometimes I wish I was from Japan (In terms of games and being a gamer). The West sure has a legacy, but I could probably make my choice of which game(s) id rather play. It’s been about 85-90% Japanese and I could even trace that back to my days with the SNES.
 
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Sakura

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I have lots of criticisms of Japanese games, and I criticise them frequently.
I never see people saying you can't criticise Japanese games, so I don't know what you are on about OP. I think there is a difference between good criticism and bad criticism and maybe you are confusing the two, for example if the only thing someone can bring to a discussion on Souls games is that they are "too hard" then yeah, maybe they should be told off.
Western games are indeed worse though.
 
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Last gen was rough for the Japanese gaming market to catch up. A lot of devs still clung to the PS2 and had a hard time with going in until near the end of the generation. I mean Persona 4 came out for the PS2 in 2008 and a lot of devs skirted around going straight for PS3/Xbox 360 and went straight onto the Wii. Only Capcom, Square Enix and Konami as far as I recall seemed to go straight in with it. (and FromSoft but that was a bit later.) Even then Capcom's Monster Hunter team switched development from PS3 to Wii because it would be easier/cheaper. Also when Square Enix debuted Final Fantasy XIII on the 360/PS3 you all know how that went down & after the success of Lost Planet and Dead Rising Inafune started outsourcing their IPs to Western studios (What the fuck.)

Honestly, that gen WAS rough looking at it. Phil Fish saying Japanese games being bad at the time wasn't wrong but after the Japanese gaming renaissance a few years ago when we getting game after game that was straight heat (BotW, Nier: Automata, Persona 5.) Last gen the Western market were the trend setters but this gen Japan has been catching up and there's more classics and higher quality games than from like 2006-2012.

Do Japan still use some trash tropes and mediocre game design? Yeah but so does the West. lol. Also this thread got me thinking about the Nichegamer interview when he was praising Nagoshi for his games being Japanese and a bunch of checkmarks and other losers were going IN the interviewer for it. I'm playing Yakuza 0 right now and half the appeal is the accurate essence of 80s Kamurocho/Japan down to the core which Westerners would NEVER nail. I mean Ghosts of Tsushima is looking "Very Chinese" to the Japanese so... Maybe stick to your own background? 🤔
 
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Yakuza not selling much in the west isn't an excuse to hand wave it's legit problems, and it has like 10 games since it came out in 2004!
As for lootboxes and MTX no need to look further than Capcom's practices with games like Asura's Wrath, SFxT and SF5, and the less said about the mobile space the better.
As for Japanese games not selling much in general, it's a stupid argumant, i LOVE the Trails series but they have a number of problems that needs to be addressed and critiuqed.

Where did I say that Yakuza doesn't have problems? My Youtube Channel is dedicated to SEGA glitches. The fans are legit to be parading that the sales are getting better, as is the quality. No one is arguing about the rate the games are made either, but given we had to BEG SEGA and Sony to get more of them over here, I think you are ignoring an important factor as to WHY we celebrate Yakuza games as much as we do....because we almost didn't get them early on!

You cited Capcom's games. Please tell us the other large Japanese companies that do this without resorting to "Mobile", as that argument is pretty weak when it comes to their efforts in Europe and America. (where lootboxes is banned in European countries)

It is fine to critique a game but you are seriously downplaying Japanese games not selling much. Last time I saw Nintendo still outsells nearly every single Western AND Japanese games. If you want to argue about sales of Japanese games than look at the comparison on various fact sites. I am not downplaying any Western games that have done well but "Not selling Well" does not mean "flawed", if that were the case then GTA V would not sold as much as it did.

Overall, no one should really care about sales of their favourite game as long as they enjoy them. I certainly enjoy my countless SEGA, Falcom, Nintendo, Sony Japan etc games that never sold a million....and I understand that many many games have flaws, and the same goes for Overwatch, Minecraft, FortNite, Gears of War etc.

I am not a big fan of those games, but I am glad that they are doing well and it doesn't affect what we think about Western vs Japanese games. I just think this thread is trying to aggravate certain feelings of older gamers who grew up on Japanese games and have lived long enough to know that today's Western Market is very cut and paste because we lived through the era of DOOM, Gears of War, Exhumed, GTA, Rayman and World of Warcaft to know when the likes of Sony and Co just use "Open World" for everything they do. It's not just a simple case of "Japanese games are Gameplay first", but they did define what Gameplay was to many of us, and even the EU/NA side took some of that and made their own gameplay tweaks to platfomers, Shooters and the like.

Gaming evolves every generation, but I think both sides stagnated at different times and it really shows going from the PS3/360 Era (Japanese games trying to be more Western, and PC games became more popular and available in the west), to this Gen where you either play an Open World Western Game or a Battle Royale Free for All (which are popular for people to copy). Both sides will eventually correct themselves but it can be sad to see when you have played both types of games and they are moulded into what is "popular" rather than being their own thing.
 
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Where did I say that Yakuza doesn't have problems? My Youtube Channel is dedicated to SEGA glitches. The fans are legit to be parading that the sales are getting better, as is the quality. No one is arguing about the rate the games are made either, but given we had to BEG SEGA and Sony to get more of them over here, I think you are ignoring an important factor as to WHY we celebrate Yakuza games as much as we do....because we almost didn't get them early on!
First, I didn't mean you specificly in my post, i mean the whole Yakuza fandom in general, make no mistake i like the series i was there day one back in 2005, but the series was very stagnant by Y4 and was out of ideas and genuine gameplay imrovements.

I used Yakuza as an example of the hypocracy of those throwing around the term "movie" games, and I think this needs no explaination.

I think you might've missed the point behind this thread which was to list the cause of downfall of Japanese games in the eyes of the average consumer, and how that gave birth to the persecution complex some fans felt, and how now that Japan is back on it's feet both commercially and critically, there's no need for it to continue.

You cited Capcom's games. Please tell us the other large Japanese companies that do this without resorting to "Mobile", as that argument is pretty weak when it comes to their efforts in Europe and America. (where lootboxes is banned in European countries)
Arc system works, Atlus, and Tecmo Koei to name a few, take a look at every BlazBlue game ASW released and the number of DLC it got, Doa 6 has 3 THREE season passes, each sold at 99$, Atlus of course is one of the worst with their "Atlus tax" as some stupid fans liked to name them and the endless DLC for P5 that won't even carry over to P5R!

Overall, no one should really care about sales of their favourite game as long as they enjoy them. I certainly enjoy my countless SEGA, Falcom, Nintendo, Sony Japan etc games that never sold a million....and I understand that many many games have flaws, and the same goes for Overwatch, Minecraft, FortNite, Gears of War etc.
I'd like to say one thing here, no game can be successful at the scale of Fortnite, Minecraft or CoD without being a good game, it may not be your cup of tea but the masses aren't as stupid as you think and they won't continue buying/supporting these games if they weren't enjoyable.

Videogames is a business and believe me if Sega or Capcom made something that was a massive hit on the scale of CoD which they were trying to do, they would've capitalized on it and some people would've hated it with a passion just because of it's popularity and success.

Nintendo needs no defending, they're the Disney of the video games world with the most successful IP to date.
 

Trojita

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Atlus of course is one of the worst with their "Atlus tax" as some stupid fans liked to name them and the endless DLC for P5 that won't even carry over to P5R!
I've been seeing some conflicting information about that.

Playstation official blog is saying the P5 DLC is free for use in Royal.

https://blog.us.playstation.com/2019/12/03/persona-5-royal-takes-your-heart-on-march-31-2020/
"Digital pre-orders will come with an original Persona 5 Royal theme as a bonus and all the original Persona 5 DLC will be free for all Persona 5 Royal players."
 
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Jigsaah

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Jan 31, 2018
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So my take on this is that it's really depends on the game on an individual level. There are some fantastic Japanese games right now, it's just some aren't my cup of tea. People seem to love Yakuza. I don't frickin get it. People love Tales of Vesperia, I don't get it. They love Death Stranding. I'm only 4 hours in, and right now I'm just a mix of confused and angry. They say it gets better at 10 hours so we'll see. But my favorite game of all time is Phantom Dust, by Yukio Futatsugi, my fucking hero. Dark Souls is my favorite franchise of the past decade. It just deserves it. Nier Automata is burned my memory. I can remember what kinda food I was eating while playing that game. Fortnite, I game I despise, admittedly is a good game. COD made a comeback in a huge way this year. Gears 5 was beautiful and had a great story IMO. Western games have their portion of games that just don't do it for me either, but you see what I'm saying. It just depends on the game.

My point is that you can't really worry about what people bandwagon about or care about what they say. Any argument can carry via word of mouth but the true gems transcend that USUALLY. I wanna emphasize "usually" because cancel culture apply to games too and it's bullshit.