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The PlayStation 5 SSD Will Not Change Open World Games Dramatically

mckmas8808

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I don't see how it will affect gameplay in a drastic manner. Yes, sure, games will load faster, games will have bigger maps and such, but dramatic changes? I doubt it, but I hope to be proven wrong.
You could have more AI and physics loaded alot faster too. That's also in that 10 GBs per second, instead of it being 50 MBs per second. Those two things also changes gameplay.

"Movie quality CGI" is your takeaway? Ugh.
To be fair, I think most gamers on average would feel like if open-world games had movie-quality CGI graphics, that would be a drastic change.
 

hyperbertha

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Stop calling people stupid. And don’t respond with the lame excuse that you’re chastising the sin and not the sinner. People have different views and they are expressing them.

Cerny thought cell architecture would change gaming. He then thought the cooling strategy he selected for the Pro would be sufficient. He’s been wrong before. He may well be wrong here.

He doesn’t have a box for anyone to review and his theories were not backed by any hard data. I’m also hearing the PS5 dev kits are not even equipped with this SSD which will be hilarious if true.

Just try to relax. Maybe go wash your hands or something.
Just because someone mentioned SSD doesn't mean you have to turn it into an Xbox vs ps5 battle. Both consoles are going to benefit so maybe you need to relax. And, yes it is rather stupid how people are comparing this to things like Cell. Going with SSD is an informed decision both companies made due to understanding how game development works, and it is absolutely backed by hard data. Like how much more data do you need? You can find hundreds of youtube videos explaining how data loading works.
 

TBiddy

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This just proves you still don't understand how this works. Technically, you can have bigger maps whether you have ssd or hdd. But ssd gets us closer to movie quality is all I'm saying. Its pointless arguing about this without educating yourself so go do some research or something.
You're the one saying I'm "objectively wrong", when I say we'll see bigger maps thanks to the SSD.. and yet you have the audacity to tell me to "go do some research or something" and that I "don't understand how this works".

How was it you put it - "Ugh"?

You could have more AI and physics loaded alot faster too. That's also in that 10 GBs per second, instead of it being 50 MBs per second. Those two things also changes gameplay.

To be fair, I think most gamers on average would feel like if open-world games had movie-quality CGI graphics, that would be a drastic change.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AI and physics generally a CPU/GPU task? I'm not sure that has much to do with the SSD.

I don't think movie-quality CGI cutscenes will be considered a drastic change.
 

hyperbertha

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You're the one saying I'm "objectively wrong", when I say we'll see bigger maps thanks to the SSD.. and yet you have the audacity to tell me to "go do some research or something" and that I "don't understand how this works".

How was it you put it - "Ugh"?
I just said larger map sizes can be had without SSD. That's not how you benefit from SSDs.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AI and physics generally a CPU/GPU task? I'm not sure that has much to do with the SSD.
I don't think movie-quality CGI cutscenes will be considered a drastic change.
movies quality cgi gameplay will be.
 

TBiddy

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Now we are at movie quality CGI gameplay because of a ssd. People have completly lost their marbles. Get help.
It's mindboggling. It's just a very fast SSD. It's not a rendering farm.

I just said it gets us closer. Care to prove me wrong?
You said:

You don't see how going from 20 mb to 4 gb per unit space is a dramatic change? If you want movie quality CGI , this is how you get it.
And no, you're absolutely not getting movie quality CGI gameplay because of the SSD change. No chance, whatsoever.
 

Skyr

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I just said it gets us closer. Care to prove me wrong?
I don't need to prove you wrong. All that has been proved so far is that they improve loading times and reduce suttering as shown in star citizen. There is ZERO evidence if or how it improves actual gameplay or graphics. Thats just you making things up in your mind.
 
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hyperbertha

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It's mindboggling. It's just a very fast SSD. It's not a rendering farm.



You said:


I said:


This just proves you still don't understand how this works. Technically, you can have bigger maps whether you have ssd or hdd. But ssd gets us closer to movie quality is all I'm saying. Its pointless arguing about this without educating yourself so go do some research or something.
Stop putting words in my mouth. So insecure and desperate. Go do some research.
And no, you're absolutely not getting movie quality CGI gameplay because of the SSD change. No chance, whatsoever.
But you are going to get much closer. Which is all I said.
 

eastwood333

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Sony fans act like the SSD is some how going to make the PS5 faster. It's not. Even John from DF says so. SSD could possibly make certain task easier,more efficient, and faster for game development I suppose
 

TBiddy

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I said:



Stop putting words in my mouth. So insecure and desperate. Go do some research.

But you are going to get much closer. Which is all I said.
You shifted the goalposts mighty fine, yes. Saying that we're going to get closer to movie CGI quality next-gen is like saying we'll have faster phones next year. It's so obvious that my grandma could've told you that.

You started out by saying that upping the SSD speeds would get us movie CGI quality gameplay. You then realised your mistake and revised your statement to something trivial and yet you're still asking me to go "do some research" and calling me insecure and desperate.

I'm sorry, but you need to do better than that.
 
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mckmas8808

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Stop calling people stupid. And don’t respond with the lame excuse that you’re chastising the sin and not the sinner. People have different views and they are expressing them.

Cerny thought cell architecture would change gaming. He then thought the cooling strategy he selected for the Pro would be sufficient. He’s been wrong before. He may well be wrong here.

He doesn’t have a box for anyone to review and his theories were not backed by any hard data. I’m also hearing the PS5 dev kits are not even equipped with this SSD which will be hilarious if true.

Just try to relax. Maybe go wash your hands or something.
You sure that was Cerny's belief with the Cell architecture? Didn't Poppa Ken create that with IBM? Plus I'm not saying Alex is stupid. I'm saying he's being short-sighted. Yes, he's allowed to have a different opinion than me and most developers, but that doesn't mean we can call him out when he's so flagrantly wrong on this subject.

And if I worked at DF, I'd have to have a small talk with him because what he "said" is really stupid.
 
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mckmas8808

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I don't need to prove you wrong. All that has been proved so far is that they improve loading times and reduce suttering as shown in star citizen. There is ZERO evidence if or how it improves actual gameplay or graphics. Thats just you making things up in your mind.
My god can you guys please listen to developers. Please! Stop thinking these next-gen consoles are just your normal PCs that you've had with SSDs for the last 5 years. They aren't. They are on another level. There are a million pieces of evidence that it'll improve graphics if you listen to devs.

Like when devs say, "this SSD is the biggest change I've seen in my 20 years of making games" what do you think that means? How do you interpret that? I know how it makes me feel when I seem them say that. And the last thing I think of is, "well it WON'T change open-world games that much".
 
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eastwood333

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You sure that was Cerny's belief with the Cell architecture? Didn't Poppa Ken create that with IBM? Plus I'm not saying Alex is stupid. I'm saying he's being short-sighted. Yes, he's allowed to have a different opinion than me and most developers, but that doesn't mean we can call him out when he's so flagrantly wrong on this subject.

And if I worked at DF, I'd have to have a small talk with him because what he "said" is really stupid.
You're not working at DF for a reason. Tell us what these benefits of the SSD are going to provide other than mostly loading content speeds that'll be so "REVOLUTIONARY".
 
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Skyr

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My god can you guys please listen to developers. Please! Stop thinking these next-gen consoles are just your normal PCs that you've had with SSDs for the last 5 years. They aren't. They are on another level. There are a million pieces of evidence that it'll improve graphics if you listen to devs.
I don't think you know what the word evidence means.
 
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DForce

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I don't need to prove you wrong. All that has been proved so far is that they improve loading times and reduce suttering as shown in star citizen. There is ZERO evidence if or how it improves actual gameplay or graphics. Thats just you making things up in your mind.
Developers, Digital Foundry etc are all saying it will help with graphics and gameplay.

And it seems like the only people who saying it won't are people on message boards who know nothing about game design.

Yes, many people on here are developers, but we have more than enough information that proves how it will change gameplay.

Data is stream from the SSD to the RAM.
Data is also stream from the HDD to the RAM on current gen consoles.

Faster stream = better quality assets.

Star Citizen lags while playing on a HDD because it's still loading assets. This lag pretty much does not happen when using a SSD.

Faster stream = faster travel

Horizon Zero Dawn developers said before (which I'm sure people mentioned here before) that they wanted to add flight to the gameplay, but they were limited to the slow storage speed.


If you can load high quality assets in an instant vs when you cannot (regular HDD) then it will improve graphics. Faster speed = faster asset streaming.
 

mckmas8808

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You're not working at DF for a reason. Tell us what these benefits of the SSD are going to provide other than mostly loading content speeds that'll be so "REVOLUTIONARY".
DForce DForce just gave you a gameplay example that would have been changed had we had fast SSDs in the PS4. HZD had to remove flying on robo-dinos due to every PS4 being sold with a standard HDD. They also had to create long bridges for Alloy to run on just to stream the game world in the background. They had to create winding stairs for her to run down in order for the world to load in the background fast enough. They also had to slow down her run speed when in the cities due to too much data that needed to be loaded.

All of that would be eliminated now ONLY because of the SSD that'll be in the PS5. Plus having movie like CGI graphics on top of that? How is all of that, that I just listed not changing the game drastically due to the SSD?

Even his co-worker John a.k.a. D dark10x said this about the SSDs.


To me when someone says they believe it'll change how games are made and that it's a fundamental shift in game creation.......I'm more likely to think a drastic shift will happen in both open-world games and non-open world games.
 
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Skyr

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Developers, Digital Foundry etc are all saying it will help with graphics and gameplay.

And it seems like the only people who saying it won't are people on message boards who know nothing about game design.

Yes, many people on here are developers, but we have more than enough information that proves how it will change gameplay.

Data is stream from the SSD to the RAM.
Data is also stream from the HDD to the RAM on current gen consoles.

Faster stream = better quality assets.

Star Citizen lags while playing on a HDD because it's still loading assets. This lag pretty much does not happen when using a SSD.

Faster stream = faster travel

Horizon Zero Dawn developers said before (which I'm sure people mentioned here before) that they wanted to add flight to the gameplay, but they were limited to the slow storage speed.


If you can load high quality assets in an instant vs when you cannot (regular HDD) then it will improve graphics. Faster speed = faster asset streaming.
All you provide is a reference to quotes by individuals. That proves nothing.

Faster stream = better quality assets.
That a hilarious math. Faster streaming just means the asset is loading faster. The quality of the asset needs to be processed by the GPU. Sure pop in and stuttering caused by asset streaming will be reduced. Thats great but nobody is arguing that.

Again. People in here literally say that actual graphics and quality of assets will improve. Which is utter nonsense.
If you like to buy into the buzzwords by some individuals be my guest. I will believe it when I see it.
 

mckmas8808

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All you provide is a reference to quotes by individuals. That proves nothing.


That a hilarious math. Faster streaming just means the asset is loading faster. The quality of the asset needs to be processed by the GPU. Sure pop in and stuttering caused by asset streaming will be reduced. Thats great but nobody is arguing that.

Again. People in here literally say that actual graphics and quality of assets will improve. Which is utter nonsense.
If you like to buy into the buzzwords by some individuals be my guest. I will believe it when I see it.
Again you are wrong! It's not only that the data will load faster. It's that the "amount of data" is higher on a per second (or less) basis. Meaning the assets have higher quality too.
 

mckmas8808

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People keep going out of their way to slam the PS5 SSD.

Makes me think it actually might be a game-changer.
This developer from Naughty Dog had this to say about the SSD.


He said it's the "biggest leap in his career". At some point it obvious that the SSD is a game-changer.
 
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On Demand

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More damage control from that same site. Gotta downplay PS5's advantages to make SX look better in every light.

Developers have commented on how SSD's are a revolutionary step forward. Keep trying though. I'm sure MS loves these articles.

That digital foundry guy is a clear xbox fanboy. Always has been.

hmmm...







Seems like its a pretty unanimous sentiment: SSD will drastically change game design
We agree to disagree. And when he's proven wrong with 2 years we'll all laugh at him and use that clip as fodder like we did this gen when a publication tried to downplay the PS4 selling a million units in like a day. Plus take a quick look at this GDC presentation on how Insomniac did streaming on Spiderman. I timestamped it for you so that it goes straight to the cool part. You only need to watch about 2 minutes of it.




Now did you see and hear that? Now imagine if they had a SSD that could stream data at 10 GBs per second instead of a HDD streaming 50 MBs of data per second.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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A helpful thought experiment: what would happen to PS4 and X1X games if we cut the RAM in half?

Why, the same thing we saw at the beginning of the gen with PS4 vs X1 comparisons: lower resolution, missing textures, more pop-in, etc. And to remind the audience, PS4 and X1 had the same amount of RAM, one pool was just faster than the other.

Why would RAM help with those problems? Because assets on the disk and on the HDD cannot be loaded quickly enough. The CPU would issue an instruction to fetch an object on the HDD and would have to wait a few seconds before it arrived. Too slow.

So instead, the object is cached in RAM. Increase the RAM, increase the cache. Simple.

But what happens when the (slow) speed of the HDD and disk ceases to be an issue? Why, it would imply the CPU can issue an instruction to fetch an object and would not have to wait a few seconds before it arrived. Any caching processes related to RAM would also be quicker, reducing load times at the beginning of the level.

Not as many objects need to be cached in RAM. Increase the SSD speed, decrease the reliance on cache. Simple.

People who don't think SSDs will make a difference do not comprehend how gaming hardware works, full stop.
 
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hyperbertha

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You shifted the goalposts mighty fine, yes. Saying that we're going to get closer to movie CGI quality next-gen is like saying we'll have faster phones next year. It's so obvious that my grandma could've told you that.

You started out by saying that upping the SSD speeds would get us movie CGI quality gameplay. You then realised your mistake and revised your statement to something trivial and yet you're still asking me to go "do some research" and calling me insecure and desperate.

I'm sorry, but you need to do better than that.
Latching on to non truths to divert the argument I see. This desperate to keep hold of an argument? SSDs will bring us much closer to movie quality than a couple teraflops. And its not 'trivial'. Saying 'it just gives bigger openworlds' is ample proof you have no idea as to what you are talking about.
 

mckmas8808

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Seriously... lol in the face of anyone who thinks loading in more and better quality assets at lightning speeds won't make the game visuals look better, but a minuscule improvement in flops will :messenger_grinning_sweat:
BRO! It's freaking insane how people go through mental hurdles like this. Your point is perfect. 2 TF difference HUGE! But going from 50 MB/s streaming data to 10 GB/s streaming data......ehhhh not real jump or huge difference. Like it's two "Orders of Magnitude" difference in steaming speed.

This is a mind blowing change in video games that we are talking about here.

Latching on to non truths to divert the argument I see. This desperate to keep hold of an argument? SSDs will bring us much closer to movie quality than a couple teraflops. And its not 'trivial'. Saying 'it just gives bigger openworlds' is ample proof you have no idea as to what you are talking about.
I agree with your first point actually earlier today. I think it'll bring movie like CGI graphics this next coming up gen. The question is.....do we consider this movie CGI like graphics?


 
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CJY

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Latching on to non truths to divert the argument I see. This desperate to keep hold of an argument? SSDs will bring us much closer to movie quality than a couple teraflops. And its not 'trivial'. Saying 'it just gives bigger openworlds' is ample proof you have no idea as to what you are talking about.
What you're saying is entirely accurate. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The SSD has more potential to bring us closer to movie quality than more flops next gen, absolutely.

AMD head of graphics division says GPUs need to improve 1000000x (1 million times) before what we see on screen reaches the level of looking in the mirror. A tiny improvement in flops means nothing next gen when the flops are already pretty decent. Removing all the bottlenecks with fast delivery of assets for the processors to do their work is the driver of game innovation next gen.
 
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hyperbertha

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All you provide is a reference to quotes by individuals. That proves nothing.


That a hilarious math. Faster streaming just means the asset is loading faster. The quality of the asset needs to be processed by the GPU. Sure pop in and stuttering caused by asset streaming will be reduced. Thats great but nobody is arguing that.

Again. People in here literally say that actual graphics and quality of assets will improve. Which is utter nonsense.
If you like to buy into the buzzwords by some individuals be my guest. I will believe it when I see it.
When you have only 50 MB/s streaming, the assets you load in the next sec need to be restricted to 50 MBs. Asset quality is proportional to asset size. So 8 gb of loading theoretically lets you load assets with way higher texture resolutions and polycounts. Get it now? And yes assets need to be processed by GPU, but even last gen GPUs could actually manage way higher polys than what was given to them, simply because they were held back by the HDD. Besides there are techniques like deferred shading that significantly reduce stress on the GPU with increasing polycount.
 
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Goliathy

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Again you guys are WRONG. It's just stupid that you believe the SSD won't have that much of a change in game design when literally devs are saying the opposite. Wake up man!
How are SSDs going to change non-Open world games, except for the loading time?
 
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CJY

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How are SSDs going to change non-Open world games, except for the loading time?
I think next gen there will be examples of games where the lines between open world and liner games will be completely blurred. One second you're in open world, next seond it's linear, next second you could be driving first person on a track in GT. It literally wouldn't matter anymore when you can fill the RAM up in seconds.
 

hyperbertha

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BRO! It's freaking insane how people go through mental hurdles like this. Your point is perfect. 2 TF difference HUGE! But going from 50 MB/s streaming data to 10 GB/s streaming data......ehhhh not real jump or huge difference. Like it's two "Orders of Magnitude" difference in steaming speed.

This is a mind blowing change in video games that we are talking about here.



I agree with your first point actually earlier today. I think it'll bring movie like CGI graphics this next coming up gen. The question is.....do we consider this movie CGI like graphics?
Pure movie like graphics I fear will need more space than 16 GB of ram will afford. High end movies could have certain assets that need more than 16 GBs of RAM by themselves (mainly extremely high texture resolution) if I am not mistaken. So actual movie CGI? Doubtful. But much closer than any previous jump in console generations? You bet.
 

hyperbertha

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What you're saying is entirely accurate. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The SSD has more potential to bring us closer to movie quality than more flops next gen, absolutely.

AMD head of graphics division says GPUs need to improve 1000000x (1 million times) before what we see on screen reaches the level of looking in the mirror. A tiny improvement in flops means nothing next gen when the flops are already pretty decent. Removing all the bottlenecks with fast delivery of assets for the processors to do their work is the driver of game innovation next gen.
You know all these people would be wholeheartedly agreeing with me if it was the Xbox that had a higher transfer speed. At this point its not that they can't see the facts. They're just pretending not to to not lose a pointless debate.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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You know all these people would be wholeheartedly agreeing with me if it was the Xbox that had a higher transfer speed. At this point its not that they can't see the facts. They're just pretending not to to not lose a pointless debate.
That's what blows me away: Xbox does have a higher transfer speed (compared to any previous console). The same principles that make the PS5 a major boon also translate to the XsX's speedy SSD, just to a lesser degree if you compare PS5 and XsX side-by-side.

The handful of Xbox fanatics downplaying the advantage of SSD is a textbook example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
 

hyperbertha

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That's what blows me away: Xbox does have a higher transfer speed (compared to any previous console). The same principles that make the PS5 a major boon also translate to the XsX's speedy SSD, just to a lesser degree if you compare PS5 and XsX side-by-side.

The handful of Xbox fanatics downplaying the advantage of SSD is a textbook example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I meant higher transfer speed than ps5. They're insecure that the PS5 may have better looking visuals next gen.
 

CJY

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Next gen, the concept of "open world" will be dead or on its last breath.

Technically, the first game to have a free-roaming open world was Mario 64 and the first to do it from an optical disc was Jak & Daxter.

Almost everything else since then in open world 3D games has evolved from those innovations to where we are today.

Those two moments for me were the most magical experiences in my gaming life.

And it happened to be around 20 years ago... when devs allegedly say the SSD is the biggest innovation in gaming of the 20 years, I'm gonna sit up and take notice.
 

mckmas8808

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Next gen, the concept of "open world" will be dead or on its last breath.

Technically, the first game to have a free-roaming open world was Mario 64 and the first to do it from an optical disc was Jak & Daxter.

Almost everything else since then in open world 3D games has evolved from those innovations to where we are today.

Those two moments for me were the most magical experiences in my gaming life.

And it happened to be around 20 years ago... when devs allegedly say the SSD is the biggest innovation in gaming of the 20 years, I'm gonna sit up and take notice.
I still think devs like Quantic Dream will make more linear games but pump up the graphics to 11 and our minds will explode when we see it.
 
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hyperbertha

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Yes, I understood your hypothetical.

I'm just pointing out that -- setting aside your hypothetical -- XsX's transfer speed is still 420blazeit fast.
Yes the Xbox will also experience the vast benefits that super speed will bring, but that's not enough for them. They just can't sleep well thinking their favorite console will perform worse in an important area. That's the core of what this is about. They CANNOT accept that SSD's are important. Conceding that is making their machine look worse overall.
 

CJY

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You know all these people would be wholeheartedly agreeing with me if it was the Xbox that had a higher transfer speed. At this point its not that they can't see the facts. They're just pretending not to to not lose a pointless debate.
Totally. They are playing last-generations game of fighting over flops. It's not us who are moving the goalposts, the goalposts literally moved themselves. We just have our eyes open to see the change.
 

Dory16

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I meant higher transfer speed than ps5. They're insecure that the PS5 may have better looking visuals next gen.
Like Alex Battaglia said, if a game looks better on PS4 than on Xbox One X, then the developer should fix his tools or simply messed up. That will be even more the case if ANY game looks better on PS5 than on XSX. I simply wouldn't count on it. May be a first party game but even then it would look better if it was on XSX.
Not in the same ballpark.
 
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hyperbertha

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I still think devs like Quantic Dream will make more linear games but pump up the graphics to 11 and our minds will explode when we see it.
Yes, in extremely linear games where level size is unimportant, the impact is going to be even higher. Near movie quality I'm sure.
 
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CJY

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Yes the Xbox will also experience the vast benefits that super speed will bring, but that's not enough for them. They just can't sleep well thinking their favorite console will perform worse in an important area. That's the core of what this is about. They CANNOT accept that SSD's are important. Conceding that is making their machine look worse overall.
Totally! Accusing us of moving the goal posts, of mental gymnastics. Bloody hell, their console has it too!

It just happens to be a lot worse than PS5's one ;P
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Like Alex Battaglia said, if a game looks better on PS4 than on Xbox One X, then the developer should fix his tools or simply messed up. That will be even more the case if ANY game looks better on PS5 than on XSX. I simply wouldn't count on it. May be a first party game but even then it would look better if it was on XSX.
Not in the same ballpark.
Is the "lazy devs" excuse gonna make a thundering comeback?

Oh boy, can't wait. :messenger_dizzy:
 
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