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[mrklaw]

No-one has quoted 20x power. I've done some maths to show how much little the server utilisation would be.

The guy talking about Crackdown on the stage yesterday at Gamescom literally quoted that 20x the power of the Xbox line.

You've never seen building collapsing in this manner, at this scale, in realtime on any console. Never...Let alone with a constant frame rate...

If I'm wrong, what game has done this?

and why do you need DF to tell you what's technically impressive... You can't look at that gif and recognize that it hasn't been done before in realtime without someone spelling it out for you?

Its not a million miles away from screamride

 

[Diablos]

4D Online Another World minus the Engrish.

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

What's next, Modern Warfare 3s Eifel tower falling over gif? Not even comparable.

 

[Trup1aya]

It fairly simple building geometry and cel-shading. This type of destruction was actually done years-ago (geo-mod).

The fact that it's cel-shaded has NOTHING to do with the physics computations...

And since when have you seen geo-mod produce a scene where 3 massive sky scrappers collapse into each other, with individual peices of building material breaking apart and reacting to each dynamically as they fall... I'll wait...

 

[LukasTaves]

That does not address the issue that I raised, and it also ignores what I wrote. Let me bold some relevant parts.

The leaked SDK for last year had some details regarding costs of their cloud services...

Not sure if it is final, because the big compute was presented as a preview, but it should provide some guidance.

If someone had access to it could gather the info...

 

[Trup1aya]

Its not a million miles away from screamride

So you think the computational power needed to produce this gif is rivaled by the computational power needed to run scream-ride?

You people are out of your minds...

I mean, if scream-ride had 8 players unleashing hell in an on an entire city block, missiles flying everywhere, leveling skyscrapers into each other, then you'd have a point...

 

[gamechanger87]

What is? I don't see any difference between this and what Guerrilla did, except for the scale and debris count. Hence, what I said in the follow up post you missed.

That's entirely the point. Scale and debris count are impossible handle on this scale. Physics calculations are easy when you limit what can actually be handled. The entire point of this demo is that to do something on this scale with the amount of particles tracked is impossible on a standalone console and I would suspect any single cpu.

All of you guys really comparing this to RFG need to go look at what you could do in those games and look at what is happening here.

 

[driver116]

The fact that it's cel-shaded has NOTHING to do with the physics computations...

And since when have you seen geo-mod produce a scene where 3 massive sky scrappers collapse into each other, with individual peices of building material breaking apart and reacting to each dynamically as they fall... I'll wait...

1. Wasn't talking about physics calculations but frame rate
2. Already stated this is a step up from geo-mod in a follow-up post.
3. I'll wait...

That's entirely the point. Scale and debris count are impossible handle on this scale. Physics calculations are easy when you limit what can actually be handled. The entire point of this demo is that to do something on this scale with the amount of particles tracked is impossible on a standalone console and I would suspect any single cpu.

All of you guys really comparing this to RFG need to go look at what you could do in those games and look at what is happening here.

The difference being, I'm not trying to prove/disprove if a stand alone console would be able to pull this off. My comparison is simply that of similarities of the destruction style. Your making something from nothing really.

 

[LukasTaves]

The guy talking about Crackdown on the stage yesterday at Gamescom literally quoted that 20x the power of the Xbox line.

Okay, so what's exactly bull shit about that claim? The game is making use of 20x the resources available on a xbone, the cloud is not making xbone 20 times more powerful, but it's providing the game with resources the local box can't? What's the (practical) difference and what's the big deal about that quote?

If you watch the extended presentation above, it will clear some things up as well. They have the same code running physics on xbone as well, but as soon as you start breaking things up you demand more memory and power, and then they start delegating the destruction to different servers. So the game is *literally* accessing resources many times over of what's available on a xbone.

To be fair, we still haven't seen it ... Pre-alpha demo build is great, but let's see how it runs when it's actually in the game. We've all been burned so many times by companies showing one thing and delivering something else. Judgement on how well this works needs to be withheld until people have the games in their hands and are playing it.

This is a real pre alpha, much closer to the final product than the vertical slice demos usually built for gaming events.

This is even running on the azure already, no backstage server with low latency.

Much longer version. Everyone saying this can't be done should take a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWIpAPvF-Q&feature=youtu.be

Holy shit, I think this puts the destruction quality past of those collapsing blocks. Each block can actually be broken in many tiny pieces.

Love how they are modelling the buildings internally, with concrete and iron structures. In the presser I could notice some of that (in what it seemed a buggy calculation), but the modelling seems very complex.

Much longer version. Everyone saying this can't be done should take a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWIpAPvF-Q&feature=youtu.be

I think this puts the discussion on destruction quality past of being simple indestructible blocks falling apart. Each block can actually be broken in many tiny pieces.

And they are modelling the buildings internally, with concrete and iron structures. In the presser video I could notice some of that... It seems a very complex simulation.

 

[creatchee]

What's next, Modern Warfare 3s Eifel tower falling over gif? Not even comparable.

No. This is the next logical step. Sorry it's not animated

 

[USC-fan]

The guy talking about Crackdown on the stage yesterday at Gamescom literally quoted that 20x the power of the Xbox line.

Its very funny they double down on that after that pr message failed so hard the first time.

They left out the huge "*". Lol!

 

[mrklaw]

Much longer version. Everyone saying this can't be done should take a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWIpAPvF-Q&feature=youtu.be

This is actually using less power than I thought - assuming those 'cloud' bars are the equivalent to whatever the Xbox had reserved for local physics (which will clearly be only a small fraction of the total power available for the game).

That is pretty impressive to me. Also the handing off to multiple servers per building. That might be more a limitation on how much compute is available per server - normally being used for file serving than heavy calculation. But it is still impressive to be able to mesh them together like that.

Okay, so what's exactly bull shit about that claim? The game is making use of 20x the resources available on a xbone, the cloud is not making xbone 20 times more powerful, but it's providing the game with resources the local box can't? What's the (practical) difference and what's the big deal about that quote?

If you watch the extended presentation above, it will clear some things up as well. They have the same code running physics on xbone as well, but as soon as you start breaking things up you demand more memory and power, and then they start delegating the destruction to different servers. So the game is *literally* accessing resources many times over of what's available on a xbone.

I didn't say whether it was bullshit, just that leeh said it was never quoted and I was correcting.

 

[gamechanger87]

Its very funny they double down on that after that pr message failed so hard the first time.

They left out the huge "*". Lol!

USC, have you watched the 10 min youtube video posted?

DaveJ says that as of now the highest they have hit is 15x the XBOs physics computational power. He shows it hitting 9.

 

[FordGTGuy]

The guy talking about Crackdown on the stage yesterday at Gamescom literally quoted that 20x the power of the Xbox line.



Its not a million miles away from screamride

It's extremely convenient that most of it falls into the water so it can despawn.

This is a "million miles" away from screamride.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

No. This is the next logical step. Sorry it's not animated

I never knew I wanted a new Rampage. Holy shit I want one now.

EDIT: But I want to control a giant bear.

 

[gamechanger87]

This is actually using less power than I thought - assuming those 'cloud' bars are the equivalent to whatever the Xbox had reserved for local physics (which will clearly be only a small fraction of the total power available for the game).

That is pretty impressive to me. Also the handing off to multiple servers per building. That might be more a limitation on how much compute is available per server - normally being used for file serving than heavy calculation. But it is still impressive to be able to mesh them together like that.

I have a feeling that they are splitting the severs to enable the game to scale with more players. I guess it reduces the risk.

 

[Trup1aya]

1. Wasn't talking about physics calculations but frame rate
2. Already stated this is a step up from geo-mod in a follow-up post.
3. I'll wait...

Huh? The entire concept is about using the cloud to handle complex physics calculations using the cloud, whilst maintaining a stable framerate. cel-shading is irrelevant...

You're trivializing the accomplishments here...

 

[shandy706]

I have one word for those who want to see how taxing real time deformation/destruction is on local hardware like the current consoles...


Screamride

..and that's on a much, much, smaller scale.

 

[Torment]

Much longer version. Everyone saying this can't be done should take a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWIpAPvF-Q&feature=youtu.be

This is so much proof that cloud computing works and people are still bitching and doubting it.

What a phenomenal demonstration.

 

[bj00rn_]

The way they are doing it appear to work well in scenarios like these, because most of the destruction physics can have a variable delay because the observer won't see much difference between the latency variations (whether the breakups start after 0.2 or 1 second doesn't make much difference), so there may actually be some room for latency here, thus sending data to and from the cloud actually does work.

 

[gamechanger87]

The way they are doing it appear to work well in scenarios like these, because most of the destruction physics can have a variable delay because the observer won't see much difference between the latency variations (whether the breakups start after 0.2 or 1 second doesn't make much difference here), so there may actually be some room for latency here, thus sending data to and from the cloud actually does work.

Correct. These types of calculations are ideal for cloud computing. 1 second is 1000 ms which is awful latency. Expect it to be much less than that.

 

[WoolyNinja]

This is so much proof that cloud computing works and people are still bitching and doubting it.

What a phenomenal demonstration.

The problem with the demonstration for me is the bullet holes/damage were instant. How is that using the cloud when there's no delay at all. At a minimum there should be worst than Steam streaming/PS Remote Play levels of delay of the damage since those use local networking and 'cloud processing' would use the internet.

 

[LukasTaves]

The guy talking about Crackdown on the stage yesterday at Gamescom literally quoted that 20x the power of the Xbox line.



Its not a million miles away from screamride

Oh, but it is. In scream ride the structures also break, but each individual piece doesn't interact with nothing, they just clip every other geometry until it's gone in the ocean.

This shows every single piece interacting with each other, stacking on the floor and being persisted there for subsequent simulations, which is what makes the costs get prohibitive on a local machine, as that starts demanding way more processing and memory.

 

[StudioTan]

The problem with the demonstration for me is the bullet holes/damage were instant. How is that using the cloud when there's no delay at all. At a minimum there should be worst than Steam streaming/PS Remote Play levels of delay of the damage since those use local networking and 'cloud processing' would use the internet.

Some of the physics are being calculated locally, as the calculations become too much for the local machine to handle it starts getting help from the cloud servers. Watch the whole 10 min video.

 

[Torment]

The problem with the demonstration for me is the bullet holes/damage were instant. How is that using the cloud when there's no delay at all. At a minimum there should be worst than Steam streaming/PS Remote Play levels of delay of the damage since those use local networking and 'cloud processing' would use the internet.

It's instantaneous throughput, there is no lag since happens in real-time. You won't notice the latency if it happens in milliseconds.

 

[c0de]

The problem with the demonstration for me is the bullet holes/damage were instant. How is that using the cloud when there's no delay at all. At a minimum there should be worst than Steam streaming/PS Remote Play levels of delay of the damage since those use local networking and 'cloud processing' would use the internet.

What do you mean with instant when we are talking about gaming where you talk about ms for rendering a frame and (usually) ms for network packets? I mean, even if there was no delay, how would you know? At 60fps you have 16ms for a frame, 33 ms for 30fps. So for being instant spotted by you, this would be a lot of time for network rtt.

 

[gamechanger87]

The problem with the demonstration for me is the bullet holes/damage were instant. How is that using the cloud when there's no delay at all. At a minimum there should be worst than Steam streaming/PS Remote Play levels of delay of the damage since those use local networking and 'cloud processing' would use the internet.

When you play online do your shots hit instantaneously?

It is likely handled as follows, the game handles impact points and transmits it to the cloud which determines how the particles should fall and impact.

 

[WoolyNinja]

Some of the physics are being calculated locally, as the calculations become too much for the local machine to handle it starts getting help from the cloud servers. Watch the whole 10 min video.

I did watch the entire video, but right near the beginning he talks about the wall using the cloud. He then shoots it with bullets and maybe I misunderstood him but he sure made it sound like it was using cloud processing.

EDIT:
I'm mostly just curious as to what is actually cloud based vs what is locally computed. I'm guessing

It is likely handled as follows, the game handles impact points and transmits it to the cloud which determines how the particles should fall and impact.

is probably close to what is happening, would be interesting to get a more in depth discussion on this showing what's happening behind the scenes.

 

[LukasTaves]

The problem with the demonstration for me is the bullet holes/damage were instant. How is that using the cloud when there's no delay at all. At a minimum there should be worst than Steam streaming/PS Remote Play levels of delay of the damage since those use local networking and 'cloud processing' would use the internet.

They explain it ok the video. They have the same code running locally on xbone. So once you start a physical interaction the console calculates that, which is why there's no delay. Once that simulation surpasses what xbone is capable off they delegate it to a server to handle.

 

[shandy706]

Much longer version. Everyone saying this can't be done should take a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWIpAPvF-Q&feature=youtu.be

I missed this!

That's amazing, is there a thread just for that???

There should be.

 

[justgames7604]

I did watch the entire video, but right near the beginning he talks about the wall using the cloud. He then shoots it with bullets and maybe I misunderstood him but he sure made it sound like it was using cloud processing.

Well the wall is persistent and all the debris that comes from it is saved somewhere.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Its not a million miles away from screamride

So by the law of inductive conclusion Screamride uses the Power of whatever Cloud.

 

[Trup1aya]

Much longer version. Everyone saying this can't be done should take a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWIpAPvF-Q&feature=youtu.be

This post is pretty much "Eat Crow: The movie"
Seriously, this needs its own thread... I was under the impression that each game instance would be using a single server, but this engine is using multiple servers simultaneously as needed.

Simply amazing... What's really impressive as that in this demo, the presenter created a scenario that utilized 6x the computational power of a single xb1... And it looked pretty chaotic. Their cloud tech will allow for up to 20x ... So really they've only shown the tip of the iceberg ...

 

[mrklaw]

Oh, but it is. In scream ride the structures also break, but each individual piece doesn't interact with nothing, they just clip every other geometry until it's gone in the ocean.

This shows every single piece interacting with each other, stacking on the floor and being persisted there for subsequent simulations, which is what makes the costs get prohibitive on a local machine, as that starts demanding way more processing and memory.

the video linked earlier shows this well I think. The guy on stage talks about how they have some local processing which is enough for basic destruction, and then they hand it off to servers as it becomes too much to handle locally.

That video is a must-see. I'm looking forward to the game a lot now, although I would like that available in single-player, even if it means I have to be online. Just give me a sandbox destruction mode without needing to be in a multiplayer game.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

I don't know anything about the technical side of Crackdown's destruction and whether or not it really uses the cloud, but it is very impressive and it's at least supposed to showcase the cloud so it seems like a weird time to have this thread.

 

[forms]

In the early day MS emphasized the cloud as something that could improve the gaming experience. It seems like this has yet to manifest itself.

Has MS given up on this approach or is it being used but not being talked about?

Reality, that's what happened.

 

[Kinyou]

I find it kind of funny how people can barely see a difference between RFG and C3 destruction, but 1080p v. 900p is immediately apparent.

lol, that's a good point

 

[Trup1aya]

I did watch the entire video, but right near the beginning he talks about the wall using the cloud. He then shoots it with bullets and maybe I misunderstood him but he sure made it sound like it was using cloud processing.

EDIT:
I'm mostly just curious as to what is actually cloud based vs what is locally computed. I'm guessing



is probably close to what is happening, would be interesting to get a more in depth discussion on this showing what's happening behind the scenes.

Is there a delay when you shoot a wall in Battlefield? Well if you aren't the host, that bullet hole has to make a round trip from you to the host, then back to you and all other player...

This is no different, other than the fact that dedicated servers are reducing the length of that trip... It should be less laggy than game streaming because there's no need to process your inputs into a video file... In this case the server just sends you machine the results of the calculations.

 

[Ricky_R]

Oh, but it is. In scream ride the structures also break, but each individual piece doesn't interact with nothing, they just clip every other geometry until it's gone in the ocean.

I don't see a whole lot of clipping there. I see pieces interacting with each other and with what's underneath them as they fall, at least on that gif. Never played the game.

They do however, disappear when they hit the water, so there's that.

 

[kaching]

But you have no basis to suggest it's prohibitively expensive either...

Come now, there's at least some legitimate basis to suggest that based on the fact that the number of projects taking advantage of cloud resources like this number in the single digits and all conveniently seem to be under the umbrella of MS publishing contracts...

 

[nekkid]

I don't see a whole lot of clipping there. I see pieces interacting with each other and with what's underneath them as they fall, at least on that gif. Never played the game.

They do however, disappear when they hit the water, so there's that.

Wow, really? Even when the top half of a structure slides through the bottom half of itself?

 

[Pathfinder]

Much longer version. Everyone saying this can't be done should take a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWIpAPvF-Q&feature=youtu.be

I said god damn... o_o

This is what I'm talking about right here.

 

[Ricky_R]

Wow, really? Even when the top half of a structure slides through the bottom half of itself?

You mean when the bigger structure breaks? It's difficult to see if it's actual clipping since it can be that the bottom half crumbled from the inside and the top half just went through it. There's no clipping through that bottom half visible from where the camera is. From the front I mean.

Would have to move the camera on an angle or from a top down view to see if what you're saying is clipping. Unless my eyes deceive me.

 

[Dreadx_Jecht]

I have to give it to them, this is really cool tech, and I don't even really like xbox. I wonder if any other dev would be able to accomplish something like this.

 

[MaximusNeo701]

To anyone saying that its not believable because it's Alpha footage... I write software and if anything is already performing that well in an alpha state as this is in the demo then its a proven technology. Now I am not so sure how Microsoft is gonna feel about everyone crackdown owner trying to use 20 XBO's worth of cloud resources but I also think they want this to show what can be done, the word of mouth has hurt them and I think they are gladly letting the dev's of crackdown do the most over the top cloud computing things they can think of.

Also the key here is anything that doesn't necessarily need an immediate time sensitive result is good for cloud offloading. Physics calculation are great and static lighting etc but anything where you need a quick response, say of under 10 milliseconds, would need to be done locally. I think the applications of this on demand cloud technology are amazing; did anyone else not get a raging nerd hard on when he talked about the how as the pieces of the buildings broke up into smaller and smaller pieces and needed more computation they would auto switch to a new server instance? Or how if ruble fell into a pile of other ruble it could transfer that rubles calculations to the server that all of the nearby ruble sits on; this kind of performance optimization I think shows how talented some of the devs are. I mean they found a way to decompile x360 games and recompile them for XBO that alone is another technically impressive feat.

 

[Fezan]

OK I will like to eat crow. I always thought power of cloud would be used but for stuff not effected by the player like lightning changes, dynamic weather etc.
But what Crackdown 3 team is doing here is highly impressive. Never thought i will see real time destruction using cloud.

Still one thing I am not sure about is how much feasible it is to use processing of cloud because using cloud services is expensive .

 

[LordBaztion]

I hope that engine or technology to be used in other games to create some sweet cosmetic destruction.

 

[Torment]

OK I will like to eat crow. I always thought power of cloud would be used but for stuff not effected by the player like lightning changes, dynamic weather etc.
But what Crackdown 3 team is doing here is highly impressive. Never thought i will see real time destruction using cloud.

Still one thing I am not sure about is how much feasible it is to use processing of cloud because using cloud services is expensive .

Thunderhead is built specifically for this stuff, no worries.

 

[Zedox]

To anyone saying that its not believable because it's Alpha footage... I write software and if anything is already performing that well in an alpha state as this is in the demo then its a proven technology. Now I am not so sure how Microsoft is gonna feel about everyone crackdown owner trying to use 20 XBO's worth of cloud resources but I also think they want this to show what can be done, the word of mouth has hurt them and I think they are gladly letting the dev's of crackdown do the most over the top cloud computing things they can think of.

Also the key here is anything that doesn't necessarily need an immediate time sensitive result is good for cloud offloading. Physics calculation are great and static lighting etc but anything where you need a quick response, say of under 10 milliseconds, would need to be done locally. I think the applications of this on demand cloud technology are amazing; did anyone else not get a raging nerd hard on when he talked about the how as the pieces of the buildings broke up into smaller and smaller pieces and needed more computation they would auto switch to a new server instance? Or how if ruble fell into a pile of other ruble it could transfer that rubles calculations to the server that all of the nearby ruble sits on; this kind of performance optimization I think shows how talented some of the devs are. I mean they found a way to decompile x360 games and recompile them for XBO that alone is another technically impressive feat.

Being a software developer/tester I 100% agree with you. It's fans that don't understand how the cloud works and how offloading can make your experience better that makes MS Xbox Cloud talk look dumb, but what it actually is, is smart. There are a lot of gaffers that did understand this but it was "hard" to let other users know because they need concrete evidence. Now there are just people in denial even after looking at the craziest and putting it on "alpha gameplay" or "let's see how it is in game". A shame.

 

[SPDIF]

Reality, that's what happened.

You might want to read the last few pages of the thread.