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[Rhaknar]

So recently a little game called Hollow Knight was releaed, and if you take a gander at the game's OT, you will see almost nothing but huge praise for it, with many calling it the best in its genre since Symphony of the Night for example. And yet, there are still no known reviews of it anyware, no media, nothing. No giantbomb quicklook either for example.

Many of us in the thread were perplexed at that fact (or also in the steam thread for example, where some people are saying things like "why isnt anyone talking about Hollow Knight, its amazing"), so I decided to tweet at one Austin Walker of Waypoint and Giantbomb fame why the game is seemingly being ignored by the press. This was his reply:

austin walker‏Verified account @austin_walker 1h1 hour ago
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@Rhaknar This is the first I'm hearing of it, so my suspicion is lack of PR push

so it seems he hasnt even heard of the game. The game, according to steamspy, isnt doing very well, I believe it has sold around 10k copies or so, and this got me to think of games like Stardew Valley for example, another small project, but one that WAS picked up by the majority of the gaming media and it blew up like we know it did. Team Cherry is a very small studio and apparently they have no real marketing budget so they are relying on word of mouth, as posted by a gaffer on the thread:

I was in a stream with the PR director from Team Cherry and he said they're focusing completely on word of mouth and Twitch/Youtube because of no real marketing budget (understandable) but he also wasn't even trying to reach out to media outlets. I told him he has to at least make the attempt and to get noticed one has to stand out and expend some effort but he didn't believe they'd write about it until it got popular enough from streaming.

Is what it is.

I could write an eye-catching pitch piece.

I guess the fact that it came out during Horrizon / Switch-Zelda season doesnt help, but its strange that its going THIS bellow the radar, and also scary to think how much marketing actually makes or breaks games, and I guess its no wonder big companies spend so much on marketing. Hopefully some big influencial Youtuber picks up on it and it can spread that way, or it gets a big push on a site like Giantbomb, because it's a damn shame if this game doesnt suceed, Team Cherry did an amzing acomplishment with it, and if this is their first atempt, I cant imagine what they would do if this was a success.

 

[DNAbro]

Timing was definitely not the best but kind of surprised it hasn't been talked about much. There is a Switch version coming right? Maybe it'll get more attention there.

 

[True Fire]

I mean, yeah, marketing makes or breaks anything. I moonlight as a self published author, and most of what I do is marketing—blog tours and search engine optimization and all of that.

SV was lucky that it went "viral," at least as far as games go

 

[Neptonic]

Word of mouth isn't a great idea right between 2 AAA games and a console launch

 

[mdubs]

Advertising and marketing matters in anything and have mattered for years

 

[Usobuko]

Yakuza 0 blew up big time because many big names youtubers start playing/reviewing it. Such is the world we live in.

You don't have to worry that much about this game because it's artstyle has a unique appeal and the genre it resides is a popular one for indies. If need to, the developers/publishers can usher a second wind through sales or some brilliant viral marketing.

 

[jtb]

The gulf between the AAA games and everything else continues to grow.

 

[GOOCHY]

Comparing anything other than Super Metroid to SoTN is a bold claim.

 

[jasminlovesyoux]

Personally, I'm extremely excited to play it and have been looking forward to it. But Horizon and Zelda take precedence. Just a bad release window imo

 

[Kouriozan]

I hope it'll get attention on the Switch, I already said I'm waiting for this version, too.
Read a bit of the OT and I'm excited for it.

 

[Labombadog]

I think a big difference between Hollow Knight and Stardew Valley is the fact that there are many "Metroidvania" games out while very little to no Harvest Moon like games. So Stardew Valley was getting a lot of people excited because people are thirsty for it to be the next Harvest Moon like game. Just a thought.

Steam only? That's why, it has a complete lack of discoverability and in a market that is literally pushing dozens of low quality titles out on a daily basis.

It's bound to be completely overlooked.

Kinda this too. I feel like it being overlooked on Steam (unless word of mouth spread like it did for Undertale) is a good sign it will do great on consoles. I will more likely pick this up on the Switch.

 

[bomblord1]

Steam only? That's why, it has a complete lack of discoverability and in a market that is literally pushing dozens of low quality titles out on a daily basis.

It's bound to be completely overlooked.

 

[Usobuko]

They could always do a console exclusive tie up with Nintendo, timed or not, to get the attention of Nintendo fans who imo more likely to embrace the game.

Don't even need to be content, could even just be cosmetics dlc using various Nintendo IP. Integrate it aesthetically well and watch the words travel.

 

[MikeBison]

I admit i've seen a few videos for this surface on my youtube account but I ignored them. Thanks to your thread, I've gone and watched some reviews and loos right up my street. Will buy day 1 for the Switch, perfect game to go from at home, to on the go!

 

[wartama]

Huh, I didn't know it was coming out on the Switch. Day 1. I was interested the first time I visited the OT.

But yeah, word of mouth may or may not work. Not a reliable marketing strategy, I think, especially now that big games are drowning everything else out.

 

[Lumination]

I know people sometimes don't like to acknowledge marketing or are actively hostile towards it ($X budget but $Y was spent on commercials???), but marketing is vital to any product's success. Even the most hardcore of the hardcore cannot keep track of all the games being released daily. Even word of mouth has to start SOMEWHERE. You can't release a tadpole into the sea and expect it to make a difference without tons of support.

 

[Kthulhu]

The dev didn't even give out review codes? Surly there is some outlet out there that would at least write a short article about it.

I guess it's not unheard of an indie game being super successful though word of mouth, but surely they could have done more than just stream the game.

Glad to see people are enjoying it though. I added it to my wish list no too long ago and I look forward to having the time to play it.

 

[RichGS]

Chances are some reviews will begin to pop up in the next few days. Ours certainly should.

I guess bigger sites just don't like covering smaller releases, and we tend to give our reviewers at least a week with a game before they submit their verdict.

Oh, and we did some pre-launch coverage too:

http://www.gamespew.com/2016/06/hollow-knight-beneath-beyond-looks-beautiful/

http://www.gamespew.com/2017/02/hollow-knight-gorgeous-2d-metroidvania-will-release-later-month/

As a smaller site it doesn't get much visibility though.

 

[Raylan]

Not out on PS4. PC only. No wonder I didn't hear anything about it :/

 

[Glass Shark]

There are more games coming out than ever, and we're in the middle of a massive onslaught of huge releases right now. Switch, Zelda, and Horizon just to start. The smaller stuff is understandably going to get buried.

Anyway, the game looks neat and I'll definitely check it out. Always nice to find an indie game that does something other than pixel art.

 

[Rocketz]

I'd love to play it but I don't have a system it's on (my MacBook is toast). I've know about it for a while now.

Releasing around the time with a lot of gaming news with no real marketing isn't the best for your game, but hopefully it breaks through soon.

I have money waiting if it gets an XB1 port.

 

[StoveOven]

Trying to rely fully on word of mouth and not at least contacting media outlets is a dumb way to go about things. Sure, most of those outlets might completely ignore it, but even just one of them writing a review is better than none of them knowing the game exists.

 

[Timeaisis]

Man, that sucks. I hear great things about that game.

Stardew Valley was in the right place at the right time. It's a great game that a huge niche of gamers were craving, and it delivered in spades. So it got coverage. Lots of it. Hollow Knight is another indie action-platformer, albeit a really good one. But there are thousands of those. Differentiating yourself, even with super high quality, is really hard for indies.

Anyway, I hope they find success.

EDIT: Real quick note. 10K - 15K owners is really not that bad. Actually, it's a lot better than a lot of other indies. But if you count that as a success all depends on their production budget and team size.

 

[Kalentan]

I think it being on PC only and releasing at such a busy time might have not been the best.

Though I doubt they can simply 'delay' it either.

 

[The Big N]

Marketing is 100% needed to sell a product. The fact that 1080p and 60 fps can sell titles to certain people is proof enough. The reality is the casual gamer cannot tell the difference between 1080p or 900p up-scaled to 1080 unless someone specifically told them. Nor would they ever know the difference.

Best example of marketing is Sony's E3 2013 conference. They crippled Microsoft by dedicating the ending of the PS4's reveal by pointing out the flaws in Microsoft's console.

 

[T.O.P]

Only time i heard about this game was on r/gaming in one of those "my best friend worked so hard on xxxxx and here's a trailer!" kind of posts

 

[More_Badass]

You cant really get across what makes this game so good from a Twitch Stream. Sure you can see the gorgeous visuals and the tight gameplay, but a lot of games have those aspects

What makes this game great, you can't see from watching an hour or two of a stream. The sheer size of the world, the sheer variety in enemies, the cohesion and design of the world and the lore throughout, the secrets and deeper hidden mechanics, the subtle ways the world can change or mechanics dovetail together, the myriad little details and discoveries

That's why reviews are important. They provide a look at a game as a whole, while streams just offer snapshots of whatever section you happen to watch.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Word of mouth isn't a great idea right between 2 AAA games and a console launch

This. Just too much noise right now

 

[More_Badass]

EDIT: Real quick note. 10K - 15K owners is really not that bad. Actually, it's a lot better than a lot of other indies. But if you count that as a success all depends on their production budget and team size.

Let's say 10K owners (that's about the lowest number after subtracting Kickstarter backers). Game is $15.

Devs said their budget was around $90K. They have, or almost have, already made back their budget in five days

 

[DNAbro]

Let's say 10K owners (that's about the lowest number after subtracting Kickstarter backers). Game is $15.

Devs said their budget was around $90K. They have, or almost have, already made back their budget in five days

And it's only going to do better as time goes on. I'm pretty sure the devs are fine.

 

[DrArchon]

Word of mouth isn't a great idea right between 2 AAA games and a console launch

This. It was an awful time for any small game to release. How many threads have we had calling this the busiest season in memory? We've got huge games like Zelda, Horizon, and Mass Effect coming up/out, lots of smaller but still hyped titles like Yakuza, Nier, and Nioh, a band new console, and any number of other small indies.

That said, Team Cherry absolutely should've at least sent out emails and download codes to press outlets. The game deserves that much at least.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Crazy to hear that Austin had never heard of it... Goes to show how things can fall through the cracks of there's no one advocating for them to the press.

I was planning to get it on Switch but maybe I'll get the Steam version if it'll help them keep the lights on :/

 

[Karak]

I can only speak for myself and say that the PR push was fantastically more powerful for previews many months ago then its release. This might indicate that there wasn't any money left in that section. But I have 0 emails about it at all now and it's release and I normally cover these games on the channel. I had 22 emails during the preview phase which was less than a 3 week period

 

[Shirow]

I wouldn't stress reviews much these days really. Don't know anyone in real life anymore who cares about em really. There mostly for console warriors for list war ammo or "gamer" cred really.

Shit if you check something like game informer these days that shit of a mag will have like 6 reviews for the whole month. Might include an indie in there for the "we still play em check mark.

Marketing is everything, look what happened to the Vita. You can still walk around with one on the street and casuals won't know WTF you got in your hand.
Meanwhile Sony was like: we see that everyone who buys one gets a ton of games and loves it...

¯_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Inuhanyou]

Nioh would not have been a sales success without the review scores. That is just a fact.

The game got huge attention because it got high marks on all the sites, and that's why a lot of youtubers gave it a shot which is why many players gave it a shot

 

[The Dutch Slayer]

Timing is everything.
GDC. switch & PAX next week.

Also there are more games coming out every day then there are hours in a day so its a combination of luck, timing and quality that helps drive attention for games coverage.

Also good yt channels will take indies serious if you provide a code a bit of info on the game.

 

[Timeaisis]

Let's say 10K owners (that's about the lowest number after subtracting Kickstarter backers). Game is $15.

Devs said their budget was around $90K. They have, or almost have, already made back their budget in five days

Yeah, that's pretty good. By no means a runaway success, but not bad. Hopefully the gears click and it gets more press and more sales. Like I've said, haven't played it yet, but I've heard great things and hope they do very well.

Judging indie success is very difficult.

 

[outunderthestars]

Steam only? That's why, it has a complete lack of discoverability and in a market that is literally pushing dozens of low quality titles out on a daily basis.

It's bound to be completely overlooked.

This right here. There are hundreds of games released on the platform every month. Without a good PR push it is next to impossible for a wider audience to find out about the game.

 

[Poster#1]

Launching Between Horizon and Zelda isn't a good idea. Although it does look interesting.

 

[Burt]

I remember feeling the same way when Momodora:RUTM came out. It didn't launch spectacularly either, but it has shown that word of mouth can take these games far.

 

[Glix]

Yeah, marketing is really important to a point.

That being said, its somewhat on the press too. They shouldn't have to be spoon fed information directly from the dev/pub to be aware of what is out there in the industry. It perpetuates the cycle of the press being beholden to publishers.

Don't confuse what I'm saying. An indie game slipping by a journalist is no big deal, but when a game that has good word of mouth has not been mentioned by a single member of the "mainstream gaming press", perhaps they have come to rely on press releases a bit too much.

Nioh would not have been a sales success without the review scores. That is just a fact.

The game got huge attention because it got high marks on all the sites, and that's why a lot of youtubers gave it a shot which is why many players gave it a shot

Not discounting your point, but IMO the alpha/beta/demo did more for it than any review score could ever hope to.

 

[OriginalJonty]

The review schedule has been insane for this time of year, meaning things have to be prioritised a lot more. A review is being worked on at Sixth Axis but not sure how soon it will be published.

 

[Rhaknar]

Yeah, marketing is really important to a point.

That being said, its somewhat on the press too. They shouldn't have to be spoon fed information directly from the dev/pub to be aware of what is out there in the industry. It perpetuates the cycle of the press being beholden to publishers.

Don't confuse what I'm saying. An indie game slipping by a journalist is no big deal, but when a game that has good word of mouth has not been mentioned by a single member of the "mainstream gaming press", perhaps they have come to rely on press releases a bit too much.

yeah this is exactly my point.

 

[More_Badass]

Yeah, marketing is really important to a point.

That being said, its somewhat on the press too. They shouldn't have to be spoon fed information directly from the dev/pub to be aware of what is out there in the industry. It perpetuates the cycle of the press being beholden to publishers.

Don't confuse what I'm saying. An indie game slipping by a journalist is no big deal, but when a game that has good word of mouth has not been mentioned by a single member of the "mainstream gaming press", perhaps they have come to rely on press releases a bit too much.

Is that how most press does it? I get maybe 1% of indie news from press releases, everything else is from GAF, Twitter, Tumblr, and TIGSource.

 

[Glix]

Is that how most press does it? I get maybe 1% of indie news from press releases, everything else is from GAF, Twitter, Tumblr, and TIGSource.

Well, if they were getting their news from GAF, they would know about this game.

I have seen it popping up here for years.

Edit - In addition, on most of the major sites, the release goes out and then an article goes up. I guess that is why I feel the way I do about it.

 

[Servbot24]

Yeah, marketing is really important to a point.

That being said, its somewhat on the press too. They shouldn't have to be spoon fed information directly from the dev/pub to be aware of what is out there in the industry. It perpetuates the cycle of the press being beholden to publishers.

Don't confuse what I'm saying. An indie game slipping by a journalist is no big deal, but when a game that has good word of mouth has not been mentioned by a single member of the "mainstream gaming press", perhaps they have come to rely on press releases a bit too much.



Not discounting your point, but IMO the alpha/beta/demo did more for it than any review score could ever hope to.

This is a bit unrealistic imo. Media already have busy jobs and can't be expected to routinely research potential surprise hits in niche communities across the internet. If I make the best game of all time and don't tell anyone, I don't get to then complain that no one knows about it and say that journalists should be knocking on my apartment door.

 

[Glix]

This is a bit unrealistic imo. Media already have busy jobs and can't be expected to routinely research potential surprise hits in niche communities across the internet. If I make the best game of all time and don't tell anyone, I don't get to then complain that no one knows about it and say that journalists should be knocking on my apartment door.

Your post and More_badass's post are saying the exact opposite thing.

I don't think its unreasonable for outlets to have a guy do what Klepek used to do on GB and spotlight shit that no one would ever see otherwise. Benefits the readers and the devs, and Patrick would sometimes even discover things he was interested in that he never thought he would be interested in.

 

[Rhaknar]

This is a bit unrealistic imo. Media already have busy jobs and can't be expected to routinely research potential surprise hits in niche communities across the internet. If I make the best game of all time and don't tell anyone, I don't get to then complain that no one knows about it and say that journalists should be knocking on my apartment door.

Team Cherry isnt complaining.

I am

 

[Ridesh]

Well, yeah, I mean...

 

[More_Badass]

Your post and More_badass's post are saying the exact opposite thing.

To be fair, devs will send out press releases and review requests, but I almost never discover those games because of those emails.

I tend to already know about what indie games are releasing or coming soon, due to Steam's Upcoming list and other sources.

Actually I usually learn about unfamiliar indie games from RockPaperShotgun; that's where I learned about Unexplored and Recurved

But then again my focus is so nearly 100% indie games, that I'm probably a major outlier