Support NeoGAF

[Silver_DNA]

This bothers me. The complaint is always that other people get paid too much for what they do. It's never that we don't get paid enough for what we do.

Game developers work hard, put their work up for very public criticism, and start another project soon after finishing. Plus the story hinges on an anecdotal story that may or may not have happened. This is lame.

 

[remnant]

Development costs are dwarfed by marketing costs.

Which is still people getting paid. So game developers can have high salaries but the marketing team can take a paycut?

Labor is a major expense =/= developers are overpaid.

But if you are going to criticize the current AAA model, you have to take into account one of the highest expenses, is that is game developer pay. You can't pick and choose what to keep off the table.

if you are demanding smaller games and budgets, you are also demanding smaller wages.

 

[Duxxy3]

If publishers wanted to cut back on inital cost they could reduce the yearly salary but make up for it if the game sells well. Some developers would be interested and some would not.

Marketing costs are so high because every publisher is trying to scream over every other publisher. Nintendo marketing budget is miniscule compared to other software publishers, but their games still sell well.

 

[remnant]

If publishers wanted to cut back on inital cost they could reduce the yearly salary but make up for it if the game sells well. Some developers would be interested and some would not.

As someone who follows the vfx industry and have seen their recent struggles, this idea will fail to gain much traction among employee's with understandable cause. This idea is largely a huge paycut in base salary.

Marketing costs are so high because every publisher is trying to scream over every other publisher. Nintendo marketing budget is miniscule compared to other software publishers, but their games still sell well.

Nintendo gets by with their own IP's and they still spend a lot on marketing. Personally I think people use marketing as a scape goat

 

[Marty Chinn]

if you are demanding smaller games and budgets, you are also demanding smaller wages.

This is not true.

 

[wildfire]

It absolutely is. The non-existent level of understanding of not only the gaming industry, but even basic economics, is fairly astounding.

This article was clearly written by a young high school student.
EDIT: I clicked on his name in the article and it states he has a Bachelor's Degree.

He's also a game developer himself which makes it even more bizarre. Even if he is only an indie developer I'm surprised he thought devs were overpaid considering the stupidly long hours and high living costs which is only beginning to be ameliorated in the past decade by setting up shop outside of New York and California.

 

[jtb]

Which is still people getting paid. So game developers can have high salaries but the marketing team can take a paycut?

But if you are going to criticize the current AAA model, you have to take into account one of the highest expenses, is that is game developer pay. You can't pick and choose what to keep off the table.

if you are demanding smaller games and budgets, you are also demanding smaller wages.

bullshit. it's not like the number of people that work on a game is a fixed amount. don't modify the salary for each individual, modify number of individuals working on any project. problem solved. I'm fine with AC having a thousand+ people working on it but I'm also perfectly content with indie games that are made by incredibly small teams. hopefully there can exist a happy medium in between the two next generation as well.

 

[Neo C.]

The article is bad, but it has a point. Most members of a developer studio are rather underpaid, not overpaid, but wages are part of the reason why AAA games are too expensive.

As I recall, low wages in Poland is the reason that The Witcher 2 cost so little to make ($8 million) compared to other high profile games. Marketing budgets are ludicrously inflated on some blockbuster games, but it's not like you can just risk not doing any marketing.

I agree. People in GAF love to blame bad planning and inefficient work structure for bloated development budget, but I cringe everytime when these people take the Witcher 2 as the good example. Why do they always ignore the very low wages?

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

i've always thought about this. if AAA budgets go down or game budgets go down the people who are going to be hit are the developers. they are the ones putting in all these hours to make these games and if you are looking to cut costs that is probably where you start.

i wouldn't say they are overpaid on an individual basis but sometimes i see the amount of people working on a game and think to myself why the fuck does there need to be 600 people involved in making resident evil 6 (http://www.destructoid.com/600-people-involved-in-making-resident-evil-6-220408.phtml)? and the game ended up being a piece of shit. now compare that to a game like demons souls or dark souls, they have a small development team, less costs all around, and the games turn out to be classics.

but those are just my thoughts. i'm not a developer and honestly have no true insight as to what is needed and what goes on in game development.

 

[blame space]

 

[Marty Chinn]

i've always thought about this. if AAA budgets go down or game budgets go down the people who are going to be hit are the developers. they are the ones putting in all these hours to make these games and if you are looking to cut costs that is probably where you start.

i wouldn't say they are overpaid on an individual basis but sometimes i see the amount of people working on a game and think to myself why the fuck does there need to be 600 people involved in making resident evil 6 (http://www.destructoid.com/600-people-involved-in-making-resident-evil-6-220408.phtml)? and the game ended up being a piece of shit. now compare that to a game like demons souls or dark souls, they have a small development team, less costs all around, and the games turn out to be classics.

but those are just my thoughts. i'm not a developer and honestly have no true insight as to what is needed and what goes on in game development.

Ever watch the credits of a movie? Ever watch just the sure number of people working on visual effects alone? Why is it hard to believe that as things get more complex and advance, that more people are needed?

 

[Last Hearth]

This is as idiotic as those "do baseball players make too much money" or "do CEOs make too much money" articles we see now and then.

You think companies sets out to over pay their employees? Salaries are driven by supply and demand.

 

[remnant]

bullshit. it's not like the number of people that work on a game is a fixed amount. don't modify the salary for each individual, modify number of individuals working on any project. problem solved. I'm fine with AC having a thousand+ people working on it but I'm also perfectly content with indie games that are made by incredibly small teams. hopefully there can exist a happy medium in between the two next generation as well.

smaller teams=slower production(and argubably lower quality)=more money being spent in the long run. if you keep 25 people off to the side who are making a small little game, that's great but if they are in a AAA studio, they are probably being paid AAA wages.

Not the same as a small indie team who are likely losing money in the short term in the hope that the project recoups their losses.

People are always complaining about the lost middle market. The "B tier" game. Well if you are at that type of studio, shouldn't you expect to be making B tier money?

 

[AlphaTwo00]

but don't game devs get paid less and work more than other programmers?

Yup.

Last checked, game dev still pays less than your typical software dev job.

 

[SpoonyBard]

As I recall, low wages in Poland is the reason that The Witcher 2 cost so little to make ($8 million) compared to other high profile games. Marketing budgets are ludicrously inflated on some blockbuster games, but it's not like you can just risk not doing any marketing.

Yeah, Poland and maybe Warsaw area especially seem to have very low salaries compared to cost of living. When we visited one of our customers there, we had a chat with their sw engineers about prices and salaries, and looks like a cashier in a supermarket in Finland makes as much in Euros as an software engineer in Warsaw. Now if I was running a big games studio, I'd seriously consider setting up a sister studio in Poland rather than complain about used game sales. Ok, I'm sure at some point salaries will start to increase, but I think the overall costs will stay at reasonable level for quite some time. Unlike, say, Bangalore, which is already more expensive than Finland, when all costs are considered.

Sorry, maybe bit off topic there, but other software industries have already moved to multi-site development instead of blaming customers, and maybe gaming industry should too. Ubisoft and other big studios are already doing that of course, but this is something small and medium sized studios should also think about.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Ever watch the credits of a movie? Ever watch just the sure number of people working on visual effects alone? Why is it hard to believe that as things get more complex and advance, that more people are needed?

it's not hard to believe but just like some successful movies sometimes less is more. just like in games, there are some movies that are great (AND look great!) and kept the budget down somehow (district 9, for instance). a more focused, tighter development would do a lot of games good. sometimes it seems like there are too many roosters in the hen house.

but as i said, that is just an outsiders view who has never developed a game and never will

 

[Marty Chinn]

smaller teams=slower production(and argubably lower quality)=more money being spent in the long run. if you keep 25 people off to the side who are making a small little game, that's great but if they are in a AAA studio, they are probably being paid AAA wages.

Not the same as a small indie team who are likely losing money in the short term in the hope that the project recoups their losses.

People are always complaining about the lost middle market. The "B tier" game. Well if you are at that type of studio, shouldn't you expect to be making B tier money?

What? Here's a hint for you, there isn't much of a difference between AAA tier wage and B tier wage. People make about the same amount of money. It's more about the amount of resources being thrown at it and the scope.

 

[DataStream]

Compared to being an engineer in a non-gaming field that is a low average salary. Add to that the fact that large game development houses tend to have very high layoff rates and often immovable/unrealistic deadlines and it looks even worse.

The fact is these salaries are what they are because there is fierce competition for engineering talent and that talent is heavily drawn to expensive cities. If anything, I'd say the issue is that many game teams are simply too large and reach a point where the amount of process needed to maintain direction ends up sapping productivity and enthusiasm.

 

[MoGamesXNA]

$81,000 for an educated, skilled technically-oriented employee on the coasts... It's not an obscene amount of money.

My thoughts exactly. A software engineer should be earning enough to buy a low end sports car. It blows my mind that a horde of entitled ignorant gamers that have never written a line of code in their life feel otherwise. Shameful really.

 

[remnant]

Another thing, people are bringing up "other software jobs" and that is a fair thing to do, but lets not act as if all products are created equal either. How many industries rely on selling a product directly to retail or DD for entertainment consumption? if you are a developer at autodesk, you are making more than wokring at a game studio, sure but you are also making a a product you will sell for $3k per license to thousands of studios, colleges, freelancers, etc etc around the world, just for example.

Different economics of scale

What? Here's a hint for you, there isn't much of a difference between AAA tier wage and B tier wage. People make about the same amount of money. It's more about the amount of resources being thrown at it and the scope.

What are "resources" if not wages,benefits and OT?

And that's also my point. maybe the reason why there is a little "B tier" market is because there is no B tier wage. if every studio is paying employee wages consistent for cost of living in some of the most expensive places around America, how could there be?

 

[HoodWinked]

sigh... game development is incredibly difficult if you dont believe me try to learn even simple coding, its fucking hard. in general engineers in all fields are woefully underpaid in proportion to the difficulty of their work.

 

[DJwest]

Why are developers making so much money? Their job isn't life threatening like a police officer's is and it's not important to the future of the nation like a teacher's job is.

Stopped reading there.

 

[PROOP]

Talented developers making a lot of money is a blessing. They have the skill and vision to make extraordinary titles and must have a breadth of expertise to do so. Fuck this shit about high skilled people making a good living as the reason why the industry is in "decline". It's CEO's and others in upper management who make 5mil + annually that is the problem, not the high skilled individuals (you know, the ones who actually make the games) who maybe make 6 figures.

Turning labor against itself is nothing more than a corporate ploy to transfer more wealth to the top.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

the article is satire right?

They must be. Nobody could really be that dumb.

 

[killer rin]

In regards to the Witcher 2, Poland argument; The reality of the matter is that Software development in the states is high in the USA because cost of living in the states is high.

In the USA, most game development happens in California and and New York, two places which are ranked as the most expensive places to live. If you want development costs to fall, you need to get the cost of living to fall, because the only costs involved for Software development is Employee Pay, Office Rent, Electricity, Computers and specialty software.

 

[Soler]

Sounds anecdotal
The true problem is developers SPEND too much

 

[wildfire]

he isn't 100% wrong.

One of the largest expenses in a project like videogame is labor, and one of the biggest constants in the industry so far is how high labor has grown. growing labor costs of high skilled personnel, concentrated in first world countries with expensive living standards, and well surprise. Shit gets expensive

It's ironic that so many people on GAF criticize the game industry for having high budgets and growing expenses, but namedrop games like the Witcher as being a model for the future.

He is 100% wrong since he is talking about US wages and not Poland or Brazil.

Which is this guy's point. Well not really the guy is an idiot but overall the theme is the same. The Witcher has a cheaper production because of cheaper costs.

If the witcher was made in america, they would move to San Francisco or Los Angeles, which have obscene living costs(or maybe they would be smart and move outside of the big cities to a irvine or San Rafeal. Still expensive places to live) Pay these guys very high wages due to their location and run a multi-year project. Most of that money will be spent on employee wages.

Despite all the people attacking this guy, the industry is reflecting what the article is saying as true. How many stories have we seen about studios chasing tax credits to different states or even out of the country? How many games are put into productiona nd then immediately cancelled, with the studio or publisher eating the costs? We've seen many studios move out to cheaper parts of the country just to keep costs down.

I mean, hell what do people think these "bloated, heavy budgets" publishers approve of and consumers criticize are spent on if not the workers?

You're correct there is a desperate need to deal with costs of living here compared to what the market can bear in terms of game prices. Even though the largest share of game budget costs come from dev salaries the problem doesn't stem from how much they're paid.

There are more important factors such as what they are paid to do such as custom content that can't be handled by middleware. The way companies are managing their money that doesn't allow them to develop a cash reserve cushion to absorb the failure of the occasional project or the continual restart and cancellation of projects they feel shouldn't be put to market. How competitive in general it is to sell multiple games within the same genre for gamers with limited time and wildly varying expendable cash.

 

[remnant]

In regards to the Witcher 2, Poland argument; The reality of the matter is that Software development in the states is high in the USA because cost of living in the states is high.

In the USA, most game development happens in California and and New York, two places which are ranked as the most expensive places to live. If you want development costs to fall, you need to get the cost of living to fall, because the only costs involved for Software development is Employee Pay, Office Rent, Electricity, Computers and specialty software.

This is true, and why I think we've seen a lot studios expand out of Cali and New York, often chase some type of tax credit toCanada, Texas, Rhode Island(remember that), new Mexiso, Louisiana, Detroit, Georgia, etc etc

The article is mostly garbage, but it has a point. Wages are inflated and they will(need?) to fall. We are already seeing it happen in a sense

 

[ArchangelWest]

I say pay Devs more, pay Executives and Shareholders less.

I double down on that idea by saying that it should be that way all across the board in business. Sure you pay your executives well, but not absurdly. Kick most of that money down to the employees as a whole. The world would be a better place.

 

[NeoUltima]

This is as idiotic as those "do baseball players make too much money" or "do CEOs make too much money" articles we see now and then.

No. This is more idiotic.

CEOs and celebrities are somewhat special cases at least. The market for developers and programmers is relatively very transparent.

 

[wildfire]

I agree. People in GAF love to blame bad planning and inefficient work structure for bloated development budget, but I cringe everytime when these people take the Witcher 2 as the good example. Why do they always ignore the very low wages?

Why are you ignoring that America had a gross average salary about $45k while Poland was $16k since 2011?

We are talking about countries with vastly different earning power which is influenced by the costs to live in those countries.

 

[JDSN]

That's an idiot who is never becoming a community manager.

 

[remnant]

You're correct there is a desperate need to deal with costs of living here compared to what the market can bear in terms of game prices. Even though the largest share of game budget costs come from dev salaries the problem doesn't stem from how much they're paid.

largest cost is salaries, but salaries have no basis in game dev budget rising to high?

There are more important factors such as what they are paid to do such as custom content that can't be handled by middleware. The way companies are managing their money that doesn't allow them to develop a cash reserve cushion to absorb the failure of the occasional project or the continual restart and cancellation of projects they feel shouldn't be put to market. How competitive in general it is to sell multiple games within the same genre for gamers with limited time and wildly varying expendable cash.

if these studios are running on a razor thin profit margin with no savings to cushion them, how are developer wages not a factor?

The market being volatile and weak is an argument to lower wages and keep costs down, not increase them.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Another thing, people are bringing up "other software jobs" and that is a fair thing to do, but lets not act as if all products are created equal either. How many industries rely on selling a product directly to retail or DD for entertainment consumption? if you are a developer at autodesk, you are making more than wokring at a game studio, sure but you are also making a a product you will sell for $3k per license to thousands of studios, colleges, freelancers, etc etc around the world, just for example.

Different economics of scale

That is not how it works for determining how much a software engineer gets paid.

What are "resources" if not wages,benefits and OT?

And that's also my point. maybe the reason why there is a little "B tier" market is because there is no B tier wage. if every studio is paying employee wages consistent for cost of living in some of the most expensive places around America, how could there be?

Resources is the number of people you apply to a project, the type of middleware software you can purchase, the type of technology you can get access to. It's not about wages, benefits or OT.

Man you really don't understand how much a software engineer makes.

 

[remnant]

Lets ignore celebrity game developers for a moment. How much do you think these guys get paid? Working in the games industry is already based on making some sacrifices compared to other programming work for most of these people. Will driving talent completely put of the industry really be a way to save money on massive projects?

Tell me where the studios are located and I will give you a good guess. i live in San Francisco and only have the metric of the animators and artists I have met there, but most make between 60-90k a year. Mostly around the cost of living in the city there studio is in.

I don't know many programmer but if there is a brain drain in the game industry I haven't really seen it.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Why are you ignoring that America had a gross average salary about $45k while Poland was $16k since 2011?

We are talking about countries with vastly different earning power which is influenced by the costs to live in those countries.

But why not use that salary difference for your benefit if you are a game studio? Give the grunt work to cheaper city and only pay premium for advanced algorithm programming, art direction etc. Globalization is real, like it or not, and ignoring it is usually bad for business.

 

[remnant]

Resources is the number of people you apply to a project,

the type of middleware software you can purchase, the type of technology you can get access to. It's not about wages, benefits or OT.

Man you really don't understand how much a software engineer makes.

And those two have no correlation? I'm not a software engineer but I have balanced books for a business and I cannot imagine "wages, OT and benefits" not being a factor when hiring someone and adding them to your payroll.

 

[Marty Chinn]

But why not use that salary difference for your benefit if you are a game studio? Give the grunt work to cheaper city and only pay premium for advanced algorithm programming, art direction etc. Globalization is real, like it or not, and ignoring it is usually bad for business.

What makes you think that this isn't already happening?

 

[hackdog]

I have a $60,000 sports car. Am I earning too much? Should I ask my boss to pay me less?

 

[Marty Chinn]

And those two have no correlation? I'm not a software engineer but I have balanced books for a business and I cannot imagine "wages, OT and benefits" not being a factor when hiring someone and adding them to your payroll.

You're all over the map. I said B tier is about less people and resources. That's not about lowering the wage your average person makes. Your core salary will be approximately the same on a per person basis whether you're B tier or AAA tier. What makes a difference between the two tiers is the number of people, the amount of resources at your disposal, and the scope of the project.

 

[SpoonyBard]

What makes you think that this isn't already happening?

I know it's already happening with some studios, Ubisoft games were using multi-site development already on PS2. But I guess medium and smaller sized studios are not doing it?

 

[lefantome]

So the problems aren't

- Enormous marketing budgets
- mismanagement


Butmdevelopers salaries which probably are that high because ofmthe extra work they do.

 

[Fafalada]

The market being volatile and weak is an argument to lower wages and keep costs down, not increase them.

Game industry is one of the lower paying software fields for programmers already, with talent often leaving because compensations aren't competitive(for people that don't mind doing other, less exciting jobs).

 

[wildfire]

largest cost is salaries, but salaries have no basis in game dev budget rising to high?

if these studios are running on a razor thin profit margin with no savings to cushion them, how are developer wages not a factor?

The market being volatile and weak is an argument to lower wages and keep costs down, not increase them.

I didn't say their salaries have zero basis. I said they aren't the most important reason studios are in trouble.

So don't twist my words to imply dev salaries aren't a factor when I'm saying the opposite.

Their salary would be fine for their skill sets if the hours and job uncertainty didn't suck so badly.

If a studio is running with razor thin profits that is either a consequence of management selecting to use such a strategy to compete with more lucrative teams or just being inept. Management knows for the skill sets of artists and programmers they have to compete with a labor market with other software and media companies.

Since most studios seem to be running on razor thin margins and its improbable most of them are being dumb then a good number of them are trying to work in a very competitive market that can't support as many different companies currently in it. They'll either have to consolidate (i.e. 38 Studios, Sigil Games being absorbed and Rockstar, Blizzard absorbing others) or go break up into indie teams with vastly lower budgets selling products at vastly lower prices.

Also who said anything about increasing wages aside from that one guy who mentioned the upper echelon should be paid less and the lower tiered workers should be paid more without altering overall expenses in the first place?

 

[TheExodu5]

Developers aren't paid enough. The skill required to program a game far exceeds that of traditional software. On top of that, the field is highly competitive and positions are extremely volatile compared to traditional software development.

I would love to go into game development, but considering that my job as a traditional software developer is easier, pays better, and is more secure, I have no reason to even consider changing fields.

In any case, this article is ridiculous. "One developer has a $70K sports car therefore all developers make too much".

 

[Always-honest]

This might just be the most clueless article I have ever read.

Yes.

 

[acm2000]

All developers should make games for the love of it, not for money

TRUTHFACT

 

[Marty Chinn]

All developers should make games for the love of it, not for money

TRUTHFACT

And this is already happening. People make less on average working in the game industry than any other industry. They choose to make less because of their passion for games.

I know it's already happening with some studios, Ubisoft games were using multi-site development already on PS2. But I guess not with medium and smaller sized studios are not doing it?

I can't speak for what percentage do it, but this does happen fairly across the board depending on the project. Outsourcing is quite common due to cost reasons. The problem with outsourcing is that if you're not careful you can get some crazy ass results which could sink a smaller project.

 

[patapuf]

largest cost is salaries, but salaries have no basis in game dev budget rising to high?

if these studios are running on a razor thin profit margin with no savings to cushion them, how are developer wages not a factor?

The market being volatile and weak is an argument to lower wages and keep costs down, not increase them.

You are not going to have any programmers working for you if you don't pay them properly. They are already being underpaid realtively to programmers in other intdustries. If a dev can make over 100k in average but only 60k in game development you will not have any talent working for you.

The game industry may be volatile, the market for high skill developpers is not. They are in high demand.

 

[Neo C.]

Why are you ignoring that America had a gross average salary about $45k while Poland was $16k since 2011?

We are talking about countries with vastly different earning power which is influenced by the costs to live in those countries.

Ehm, that's my point. The US is expensive compared to other countries, that's why AAA games from the US exploded in budget.