Laevateinn
Member
I'll keep an eye out when I'm there but I doubt I'll have much luck. There's only one on yahoo auctions and it isn't cheap.
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The Sega master system appreciation thread of SegaScope 3D!
- Thread starter catmincer
- Start date
I'll keep an eye out when I'm there but I doubt I'll have much luck. There's only one on yahoo auctions and it isn't cheap.
IrishNinja
Member
wooof...yeah, that's rough! and I appreciate it m'man
From SMS Power 2017 coding comp;
SMS Bad Apple;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IrxK_nT1o8
SMS Bad Apple 3D;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-7Z23Gq_7Y
Try playing side by side with the original!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV5A-VzKWvw
SMS Bad Apple;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IrxK_nT1o8
SMS Bad Apple 3D;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-7Z23Gq_7Y
Try playing side by side with the original!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV5A-VzKWvw
Probably not too surprising that the usual SMS haters are keeping a low profile .... after all, Euro-devs shouldn't count 
Anyway, SMS Vs MD Vs NES (I thought it would be cruel to compare NES to the Atari 2600 version (to be fair, they use a bit of extra RAM)).
SMS Vs Original (bad apple 3D).
Anyway, SMS Vs MD Vs NES (I thought it would be cruel to compare NES to the Atari 2600 version (to be fair, they use a bit of extra RAM)).
SMS Vs Original (bad apple 3D).
baudelinog
Member
Probably not too surprising that the usual SMS haters are keeping a low profile .... after all, Euro-devs shouldn't count
Anyway, SMS Vs MD Vs NES (I thought it would be cruel to compare NES to the Atari 2600 version (to be fair, they use a bit of extra RAM)).
SMS Vs Original (bad apple 3D).
Very nice comparison! What a nice little machine, what a shame the Master System didn't get the love it deserved!
Laevateinn
Member
IrishNinja
Member
oh my god yes, pls buy it & ill paypal you m'man! that price seems solid, much less with a game! is that woody pop?!
Infernal Monkey
Member
D.Lo
Member
Mark III games won't work on a western SMS though, even cards.
They work the other way around but that won't help you lol.
IrishNinja
Member
even with a region switch? that's a shame, but i guess it'd be cool to own - prolly just play off the everdrive anyway!
D.Lo
Member
I'd need to see the schematic, not sure how the region mod on the FM thing works. It would work if it bypasses the bios.
Laevateinn
Member
Cool because I already bought it
. I'll PM you when in a couple weeks when I get home. Yeah, that's Woody Pop.This is true but this is a card game and I think those work. I'll test it before I send it out to see.
D.Lo
Member
Nope, not without a hard mod. Japanese machines can play western Sega Cards with no mod, but western machines cannot play Japanese Mycards.
Obviously carts can't work either way natively, the carts are different shapes with different pinouts. But with an adapter the same goes for carts, Mark III can play all, western MS can only play western.
Laevateinn
Member
Really? That's good to know.
IrishNinja
Member
oh my god you're the best Laevateinn, thanks so much man!
this is as close as i can find, lemme know!
this is as close as i can find, lemme know!
Early Japanese releases lack the bit of code needed by the western BIOS to run. But plenty of later releases do in fact have it, even games that were never released in the west or even intended for that market. Games on card tend to be early releases and as such won't work, but it's a general rule and you should test the card any way, a pleasant surprise may happen
The SMSFM is more a language mod than a region mod. To get non-compliant Japanese games to play on a western console, a BIOS mode needs to be done. The easiest ones need just a couple of wires and a cut trace, more involved ones completely replace the chip.
The Everdrive doesn't need a mod to play any rom though.
In this thread you can find a list of exclusive Japanese releases that can or can't work on a western console
Games that should work on a western console:
The SMSFM is more a language mod than a region mod. To get non-compliant Japanese games to play on a western console, a BIOS mode needs to be done. The easiest ones need just a couple of wires and a cut trace, more involved ones completely replace the chip.
The Everdrive doesn't need a mod to play any rom though.
In this thread you can find a list of exclusive Japanese releases that can or can't work on a western console
Games that should work on a western console:
Early Japanese releases lack the bit of code needed by the western BIOS to run. But plenty of later releases do in fact have it, even games that were never released in the west or even intended for that market. Games on card tend to be early releases and as such won't work, but it's a general rule and you should test the card any way, a pleasant surprise may happen
The SMSFM is more a language mod than a region mod. To get non-compliant Japanese games to play on a western console, a BIOS mode needs to be done. The easiest ones need just a couple of wires and a cut trace, more involved ones completely replace the chip.
The Everdrive doesn't need a mod to play any rom though.
In this thread you can find a list of exclusive Japanese releases that can or can't work on a western console
Games that should work on a western console:
Very good post, but you'll probably have issues with some Paddle Controller games on a western console (some games region detect and expect the different unreleased western paddle controller). If you're using a flash cart then there are standard pad patches available.
IrishNinja
Member
speaking of, another week or so & my FM mod switch should be finally tied up! can't wait to have my SMS back & later on pick up that paddle from Laevateinn, finally gonna have the full SMS/Mark III experience going!
D.Lo
Member
Thanks, yeah that's what I thought about the SMS FM 'region' mod.Early Japanese releases lack the bit of code needed by the western BIOS to run. But plenty of later releases do in fact have it, even games that were never released in the west or even intended for that market. Games on card tend to be early releases and as such won't work, but it's a general rule and you should test the card any way, a pleasant surprise may happen
The SMSFM is more a language mod than a region mod. To get non-compliant Japanese games to play on a western console, a BIOS mode needs to be done. The easiest ones need just a couple of wires and a cut trace, more involved ones completely replace the chip.
The Everdrive doesn't need a mod to play any rom though.
In this thread you can find a list of exclusive Japanese releases that can or can't work on a western console
Games that should work on a western console:
Re Mark III games on western hardware, it's a large majority of the catalogue that do not work, and in my experience, in reality, none, so it's generally true to say Japanese games do not work on western hardware. I have I think 78 Mark III games, I think there are 85 total. That list (which I think is wrong - more on that in a moment) has 27 unique retail releases? Of course none of the carts actually 'work' - due to the slot difference, and as far as I'm aware there is no converter available, though you could wire the pins up. So it's pretty academic that some carts technically may have a version that may boot if you hand wire it directly to the cart slot. There are however many cart converters to play US/PAL on Mark III with 100% compatibility outside of quirks on Coeemasters PAL releases.
So really we're talking about cards only. I have Woody Pop and it does not play on my Western Hardware (SMS1, PAL, 60Hz mod, no region mod, plays western cards perfectly, and Woody Pop plays perfectly in my Japanese machines). And it looks like that's the only card on the list? There are probably multiple revisions of each release and possibly one works? People analysing rom dumps (I mean that list even includes betas a promos!) isn't really full testing. For the same reason, as you mentioned it's possible a particular print of some other card game might work on a US/PAL MS, but it 99% likely will not.
And of course the Mark III also plays all SG1000 games, and western MS machines do not. Western SG3000s and SG1000s do of course
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, it looks like ill have a copy of Woody Pop here soon, so ill give that a go with said mod - again though, if not, it's all good on the everdrive!
When I was in France during xmass with my folks, I checked my old boxes to see if I could find anything worthwhile.
This is what I came back with :
- World Games
- Alex Kidd in High Tech World
- Alex Kidd In Shinobi World
- The Lucky Dime Caper Starring donald Duck
- Bomber Raid
- Sonic The Hedgehog
- Wonderboy 3 - The Dragon's Trap
Not bad overall
This is what I came back with :
- World Games
- Alex Kidd in High Tech World
- Alex Kidd In Shinobi World
- The Lucky Dime Caper Starring donald Duck
- Bomber Raid
- Sonic The Hedgehog
- Wonderboy 3 - The Dragon's Trap
Not bad overall
IrishNinja
Member
agreed! im sure the PS community thread will bump but that deserves its own thing
and also tweets at sega about how PSO 2 never came etc
IrishNinja
Member
D.Lo
Member
Well now plug that thing into a nice speaker system. The FM has punch like a Mega Drive. It actually makes the system feel like a proto-Mega Drive to me because FM is such a distinctive sound (and it's of course the same devs using a similar chip).
Dragon's Trap remake is making me want all the best Sega 8-bit games re-done by these guys! Monster World is my favourite, but it would need some tweaks to be palatable now for most...
Dragon's Trap remake is making me want all the best Sega 8-bit games re-done by these guys! Monster World is my favourite, but it would need some tweaks to be palatable now for most...
ResidentDante
Member
Protected twitter? I added you!
D.Lo
Member
Lol not gonna happen, Psyco Fox is not like the most revered entry in a relatively long running series, it's just a Kid Kool port commissioned by Sega as one of their many dead-end attempts at a Sega mascot platformer (eventually Sonic stuck of course).
That said, as I've been saying in the thread, the extra animation actually partially fixes the slippery controls in Dragon's Trap, by adding animation 'tells' to the sliding.
I don't think any amount of extra animation can fix this game. I try to play it every once in a while, but the momentum... Ugh. I know I should try to invest myself in it, spend an evening or two to try to master the physics, but after five minutes I just turn the console off in frustration.
IrishNinja
Member
added back! i need more retro gaffers
ResidentDante
Member
Yeah, cool to have Gaffers on Twitter!
Addd you as well Irish, even though i dont tweet much.
Btw, I have an FM unit on my way too, but Im wondering if it would be a waste to install it on my pal Master System 1. It is of course 60hz modded, but using 60hz-modded stuff with the Framemeister (as i tend to do) causes some slight flickering on dark colors. Hmm decisions, decisions, import an ntsc-unit and sell my pal, or just go for it? Any advice?
D.Lo
Member
No reason why you would get flickering on a 60Hz modded system if using RGB? It's then outputting the exact same signal. Segas often literally have a 50/60Hz trace on the board, it's the same board.
You can have issues using composite.
60Hz modded stuff, as in, any console?
I remember a youtube user complaining that there was decimal difference between a PAL modded 60Hz Megadrive and an NTSC one. Enough to give him a very slight stutter, only noticeable during scrolling. He attributed it to the Framemeister, but I believe it was more likely to be his TV. The Framemeister simply takes the input signal, converts it, and spits it out at the exact same refresh rate, whatever that is.
It's something about the crystals being used to make the frequencies, and at least the PAL Megadrive had additional circuitry used to give exact PAL frequency iirc. Can't remember the details tbh. It's the sort of thing that would cause no problem on an analogue CRT, but our modern digital beasts could be tuned to accept only the exact frequency and not a hundredth difference without producing glitches.
As D.Lo said, Master Systems use the same components. The board was slightly different on the SMS1, needing some trace cutting and shorting, while the cost-cutting SMS2 had a jumper to streamline even more its worldwide production.
always crazy bacon
Banned
The crystals were only in the RF modulator, the RGB output bypasses that.
ResidentDante
Member
I got around to buying the Wonder Boy remake this weekend, and found the FM sound option. What a world of difference! Amazing punch to the bass and a much less harsh 8-bit sound in general! Finally I get to hear what all the fuss is about!
I'm playing the game using the modern graphics and sound FX, combined with the orginal FM sound music. Just wonderful stuff!
IrishNinja
Member
still bummed i passed on Psycho Fox, but man those floaty controls take some getting used to
which is weird, given how much i love Decap Attack...but that feels way more action-y to me than just a platformer. if that makes sense
which is weird, given how much i love Decap Attack...but that feels way more action-y to me than just a platformer. if that makes sense
RoryDropkick
Member
Funny we are talking about Psycho Fox all of a sudden, that's one of the games a friend gave to me back in Feb. as part of a trade. Some guy gave him a huge stack of SMS games for $20 or so, and my friend didn't have a SMS, so he gave a lot of them to me.
Guy apparently realized what he had though, wayyyy later because he called up my friend a couple of weeks ago asking if he could buy them back.. for $20 *snicker* It's one of those scummy reseller types, so my friend didn't feel too bad when he said they were already gone.
Guy apparently realized what he had though, wayyyy later because he called up my friend a couple of weeks ago asking if he could buy them back.. for $20 *snicker* It's one of those scummy reseller types, so my friend didn't feel too bad when he said they were already gone.
Speaking of Wonder Boy 3 and the current remake, I'm so used to the non FM sound of the game that the FM version just feels wrong to me.
I need to confess that I was religiously playing that game almost daily for years (up to 1998 at the very least) sonthe music is so ingrained in me that I have a hard time adjusting to the new sound (but it's growing on me).
I really don't like the orchestrated version though, way too mellow
I need to confess that I was religiously playing that game almost daily for years (up to 1998 at the very least) sonthe music is so ingrained in me that I have a hard time adjusting to the new sound (but it's growing on me).
I really don't like the orchestrated version though, way too mellow
ResidentDante
Member
Was kind of weird for me too, but I've grown to love the MD sound over the years, just the way the bass kicks in the better soundtracks of games like Sonic 16-bit and Streets of Rage, that made me "click" with this FM sound immediately. It's superior to new soundtrack I agree, but yes it sounds a little strange when I'm so used with the stock Master System sound.
D.Lo
Member
I never liked the WB3 soundtrack on standard PCM. Very tinny. Non-FM SMS is pretty average overall but I do have some favourites that work well (Kung Fu Kid, Sonic SMS etc).
I think most games that have an FM soundtrack, the FM was designed as the 'real' soundtrack, since that was the top of the line at the time, PCM was just there as an afterthought to support older Mark III owners.
IrishNinja
Member
Laevateinn is my dude <3 for real, thanks again so much! can't wait to break this thing in with some woody pop & megumi rescue, and finally play alex kidd bmx too!
SF II bonus was amazing as well, god i love the japanese full color manuals & maps
baudelinog
Member
Not-so-surprisingly, it happens to me exactly the opposite: I'm yet to find any FM soundtrack that appeals more to me than the PSG soundtrack. And WonderBoy III PSG soundtrack is one of my most beloved ones. Just this melody:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2YbwIuhv0E
I think I will remember and hum this melody forever.
I'm planning to make a "Best Master System PSG Melodies Ever". I'm yet to record some of the best that still don't have a Youtube video, like Shadow of the Beast. I think some of you will be surprised with some of the soundtracks - here you got some Matt Furniss, for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqCe-u3KHO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8zJkD7zjY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccO1zQ17sRM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sOyP__FXa4
D.Lo
Member
If you grew up with something you'll have good memories of it.
But I wasn't talking about preference, just that the M3 PSG was pretty weak as a sound system (far worse than Famicom) and games with both soundtracks were almost certainly made with FM as the main version, since that was the top of the line. You can't even hear the PCM version on a Japanese MS, and by the time the game was developed they had completely re-branded as Master System, it was their plan in 1987.
Of course WB3 ended up not being released in Japan on Master System, but since it has a Japan only audio mode it was clearly developed with that in mind. PSG was just there for the M3 poors who hadn't bought the FM attachment lol.
ResidentDante
Member
It's such a weird design choice to first have FM sound as an add-on on Mark III, then build it into the Master System, but only in Japan. Like what were they thinking?!
baudelinog
Member
Absolutely agree with this, BUT I will always prefer this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tPoBo9vgrg
, over this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFNb_YcCT00
And I think this is a good example because the Golvellius soundtrack is one of the best on the system. Yes: there are certain songs that sounds better in FM, but, as a whole, I'd always choose the PSG version. Why? Because the difference is EXACTLY what's shown in the example: I feel there is something dull and lifeless in the FM version, I miss some PSG punch.
Something similar happens with ALL the comparissons I've made between PSG and FM Master System soundtracks: R-Type, WonderBoy III... I just prefer the PSG soundtrack.
D.Lo
Member
Your links are the same thing, but I found the real one from the same uploader
That example is a good one of a relatively limp use of FM. But in that uploader's FM version, the FM is recorded at a lower volume and is emulated, which makes it sound weaker than it does in reality. Interestingly I just compared it to the real thing and while it otherwise sounds better in real life, that track actually clips on my actual Mark III (or maybe it's my setup somehow actually hmm...)
Have you ever listened on a real system plugged into a good sound system? Just like with a Mega Drive, you need to listen to FM on a good sound system. The actual notes are much richer, and bass punches through. I never played MS R-Type back in the day, and now listening to both, the PSG sounds like an early Famicom game, but the FM version punches like a Mega Drive. Most of the Golvellius soundtrack hits much harder in FM, it looks and sounds like a late 80s arcade game, instead of looking the part but sounding like a Colecovision.
I think it's also likely we have nostalgia for particular sound chip sounds too. When I hear a new Famciom style tune that's well done I love it (eg the Famicom/NES mini menu music), I love it, despite it being kind of silly today. People who grew up with the Commodore 64 love the 'warble' sound common in its game library (because it only had three channels so they used it as a way to create a new sound), and make retro music in its style, but I loathe it.
For me the FM sound chip sounds like the arcade, which is probably what I have nostalgia for, because so many arcade games used FM by Capcom, Taito, Sega etc. Many Master System games were ports of arcade games that used FM audio originally, and so unless I played a game as a kid on Master System, when I hear both these days, FM sounds better. I mean, R-Type FM sounds much more like the arcade than the tinny PSG version. I actually did play WB3 as a kid on MS, and always thought it sounded pretty crappy, so when I got FM a few years ago it made me like the game a lot more
So I guess that's my bias, to arcade sounding games. Ironically enough I think a lot of Mega Drive games do not sound like my 'arcade sound' nostalgia, especially western developed MD games which I almost universally loathe the soundtracks of (generally the second half of the MD's life as outside of Sega, Japanese devs gave up on it). Amiga style robot farts etc. Japanese/Early Mega Drive arcade games are often killer though, I could listen to Zero Wing all day long.
Just Sega being Sega. They released a new console or add-on almost every year for most of the 80s.
1983 SG1000
1984 SC3000, SG1000 II (while both were SG1000 compatible, they had significant hardware changes)
1985 Mark III
1986 Mark III FM
1987 Master System
1988 Mega Drive
baudelinog
Member
Your links are the same thing, but I found the real one from the same uploader
Uuuuups!!! Edited!
That's a point: I've always and only listened the Master System FM through emulators. Maybe the lost 'punch' is there, after all!