Probably some games in the box.
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The Sony PS4 costs ~US$ 1850 in Brazil
- Thread starter Brazil
- Start date
Probably because one sony entity is selling it to another for market price. I have seen companies do this before. It is like Microsoft selling copies of windows 8 to the surface division. All depends on how they handle their inventories.
ethomaz
Banned
You are right... some taxes are over taxes.
Trying to fix:
BASE: R$858
+ Taxa de importação: 172 (using BASE)
+ ICMS (SP): 387(using BASE + Taxa de importação + IPI)
+ COFINS: 146 (using BASE + Taxa de importação + IPI + ICMS)
+ PIS: 32 (using BASE + Taxa de importação + IPI + ICMS)
+ IPI: 515 (using BASE + Taxa de importação)
Taxes: R$1252
I can't reach R$2524 even using the right math.
I think the real truth is that Sony doesn't have the inventory to release in Brazil and does not have the proper agreements in place to lower the price. Sounds like they are having to do everything at retail. They should probably just cancel the launch there and release it when they have the costs reduced.
Doesn't the ICMS have to be calculated to every region that will be selling the PS4?
And wow apparently IPI can have a max of 330%.
Yeah, it's very weird.
I think that too. At least they wouldn't have to deal with every possible consumer being furious about it. Our market looses, but it's too late now, I think.
Yeah, it does, but there isn't any HUGE difference. São Paulo has the biggest one and he used that.
seattle6418
Member
As a brazilian and a gamer since the 80´s i still think it´s funny how much this has been an issue. Nobody with a working brain buys these stuff on those official stores.
There are other legal ways to buy who are way cheaper, specially over the internet, not to mention the grey market. When my phat PS3 died in 2010 i bought a slim one for BRL 730, back when official dealers were asking for 1999 or something like it.
It´s the same story always, back in 2006 lojasamericanas.com.br were asking BRL 6.999 for the PS3 and it was absurd, but hey, i don´t see the surprise here on Sony being greedy.
Supose they have 5-10k units for Brazil in 2013. If they can sell that at 4.000, then why list it at 3.000 if you can´t have enough units for the demand?
Taxes here are stupid and that´s why a congressman from the same party as Dilma proposed a new tax law for videogames, law 300/2007, which is stuck in congress ever since. Basically, it asks the government to tax videogames like computer software, and not like eletronic gambling machines.
Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo are just making a horrible job of lobbying for the proposal.
Sony importing the PS4 means they pay all those taxes but sellers on mercadolivre (ebay type site) and the likes can usually import those produts and classify then as regular eletronics, bluray players etc...
When i got a PSP from an american dealer it was taxed as an MP3 player. Customs are dumb and the tax system is a nightmare.
Still, my trip to the USA is all set for december, so the only way i´m left out is if the PS4 is sold out in america this year.
There are other legal ways to buy who are way cheaper, specially over the internet, not to mention the grey market. When my phat PS3 died in 2010 i bought a slim one for BRL 730, back when official dealers were asking for 1999 or something like it.
It´s the same story always, back in 2006 lojasamericanas.com.br were asking BRL 6.999 for the PS3 and it was absurd, but hey, i don´t see the surprise here on Sony being greedy.
Supose they have 5-10k units for Brazil in 2013. If they can sell that at 4.000, then why list it at 3.000 if you can´t have enough units for the demand?
Taxes here are stupid and that´s why a congressman from the same party as Dilma proposed a new tax law for videogames, law 300/2007, which is stuck in congress ever since. Basically, it asks the government to tax videogames like computer software, and not like eletronic gambling machines.
Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo are just making a horrible job of lobbying for the proposal.
Sony importing the PS4 means they pay all those taxes but sellers on mercadolivre (ebay type site) and the likes can usually import those produts and classify then as regular eletronics, bluray players etc...
When i got a PSP from an american dealer it was taxed as an MP3 player. Customs are dumb and the tax system is a nightmare.
Still, my trip to the USA is all set for december, so the only way i´m left out is if the PS4 is sold out in america this year.
ethomaz
Banned
I'm using the calc for São Paulo... so 25% of ICMS... if you need to sent to another state then you need to added the more ICMS if you imported from Sào Paulo... that's called ICMS-ST. So if the import is in São Paulo then São Paulo didn't pay ICMS-ST but if they consoles go to Rio de Janeiro they need to add ICMS-ST.
Sao Paulo is the higest ICMS in Brazil too.
IPI for videogames is 50%... form computers accessories is 20%... there are a big discussion here why the IPI of videogames is so high when it is a computer tech (20%).
I never read anything about a consumer product with 330% of IPI.
Consoles are taxed like gambling games, not software as PC tech is. That's the huge problem that our IRS refuses to fix.
People calling it bullshit are missing the big picture. Brazilian taxes for videogames are - and have always been - absurd; there's no way around it. It's a fact, period. And now, with PS4's outrageous price hitting national midia, it's the perfect time to address and (try to) resolve this issue once and for all. But, instead of taking advantage of this situation, we're here, calling "bullshit" on Sony's part, because the X1 has an less "absurd" price tag. I mean, really? X1's price tag is absurd too. Or do you really think that R$2200 is a fair price for a videogame?
Can't we stop acting like individualist fools, just for one moment, and fight together for our cause? Seriously, that just pisses me off.
Can't we stop acting like individualist fools, just for one moment, and fight together for our cause? Seriously, that just pisses me off.
Thanks for the explanation. I have not found an example either but I found a document from the Tax Firm KPMG listing that as the max legally able to be applied.
http://www.kpmg.com/Global/en/servi...tials-2012/brazil-2011-vat-gst-essentials.pdf
I would guess that would be a punitive rate though.
ethomaz
Banned
I agree but there are two points here.
1) Xbone is using the right abusive taxes
2) PS4 is using way over the right abusive taxes... they are putting more than what it is.
I agree with that and we need to fight together (especially that), but Sony's math still doesn't make sense. But yes, even if it was R$ 2.000 it would be absurd. Taxes are really high and we need to fight against it together.
II and IPI are cumulative.
Code:
858,00
II 1029,60 20% 171,60
IPI 1544,40 50% 514,80
PIS 1558,56 1,65% 14,16
COFINS 1623,77 7,60% 65,211623,77 = 858 + 765,77 (aforementioned taxes)
Now ICMS is a monster tax, because it is applied to the final price, which includes the huge R$ 875 profit margin (approximately US$ 408 or simply another PS4).
2524 - 766 = 1758 for ICMS + ICMS/ST + MAV
Now I'm not sure how it works now. If 1758/4257 => 41%. If 1758/3999 => 44%
One thing I think we can all agree: maybe nobody understands 100% our taxes.
I think that the only one missing the point here is you... it's an absurd price even with the ridiculous taxes. Even if you want to see the bigger picture, let's say we, somehow, manage to make the taxes on videogames the same as the electronic taxes, that just would mean that the XONE would have an even lower price.
If you can't see that there's something wrong with Sony's price, even with the ridiculous taxes, then I don't know what I can say to you.
It's pretty simple: Sony fucked up. The taxes were always absurd.
Tiu Neo
Member
It's because, in one side, the taxes ARE high. But on the other, Sony is trying to bullshit an entire country of consumers, and a lot of people are believing them.
Do we have to protest against the high taxes? Of course! I don't think anyone with a little bit of sense would be against that.
But only fixing the taxes won't fix Sony Brazil's greed. There is a lot of "Custo Brasil" on that R$4000 price. Sony is trying to bullshit us.
Making X1's price lower would be great too, Maedhros. And I never said that there's nothing wrong with Sony's price. You can check my post history, if you will. Also, if taxes were fair, Sony (or any other company) couldn't use it as an excuse for their abusive prices, right?
Achieving fair taxes benefits every gamer. But we're stuck on "PS4 has an even more outrageous price tag than the X1; let's focus on figuring out why." We need to get past that, and take advantage of the situation. That's the point of my previous post.
But I trust you, Maedhros. If you really think that I'm making a fool out of myself (id est, that I'm wrong), I'll take your word and stop posting.
ethomaz
Banned
Another news...
ICMS is not part anymore for the calc of PIS and COFINS... the new law is valid after 10/10/2013.
http://g1.globo.com/economia/notici...se-de-calculo-do-piscofins-na-importacao.html
So my maths are old.
ethomaz
Banned
Now you get my attention... I need to know :-D
You're welcome to post your opinion just as much as anyone here. I just understand why the complaints are being made.
I don't think a campaign against this would work too... it's actually a minor thing considering the country situation... but the best chance of something like this working (Jogo Justo) was full of bullcrap.
Maybe people will try to start something like this in BGS (Brazil Game Show)... I dunno, but it's the best place to start, I think.
WeaponKnight
Member
What we can agree with is if the margin were only R$ 200 the price would drop to R$ 3099 (using Sony's mysterious accounting). =P
To reach 41% the ICMS would have to be 30% (considering interstate ICMS of 12%, highest from what I could find).
The explanation Sony has given reminds me of this:
seattle6418
Member
You only realize how bad the prices are here in Brazil when you put it in perspective with how much you make for a living, because currency discrepancies are often hard to understand.
PS4 in the USA - 399 on local currency with myself working in a hotel like i did in 2007 and getting $8 an hour: 49,8 man hours to buy the console.
PS4 in Brazil (if i was going this route) 3.999 in local currency with myself working and getting 5.500 a month: 116,5 man hours to buy the console.
Keep in mind that my job in the hotel was cleaning floors and moping bathrooms, so i was on the lowest of the low level jobs while my current job in Brazil is for the federal government, considered to be a middle class/upper middle class job.
It´s still way cheaper to be a gamer in the USA, even if you are busting your ass at McDonalds or any other shitty job.
PS4 in the USA - 399 on local currency with myself working in a hotel like i did in 2007 and getting $8 an hour: 49,8 man hours to buy the console.
PS4 in Brazil (if i was going this route) 3.999 in local currency with myself working and getting 5.500 a month: 116,5 man hours to buy the console.
Keep in mind that my job in the hotel was cleaning floors and moping bathrooms, so i was on the lowest of the low level jobs while my current job in Brazil is for the federal government, considered to be a middle class/upper middle class job.
It´s still way cheaper to be a gamer in the USA, even if you are busting your ass at McDonalds or any other shitty job.
Pharaoh 117
Member
Never thought I'd see a Silvio Santos meme in NeoGaf. Fucking amazing.
Aparently there is more in that graphic .... IG will post a news with the second page ina few minutes
edit : it is up !
http://arena.ig.com.br/2013-10-21/p...rgos-que-recaem-sobre-o-preco-do-console.html
And no, I don't work for Arena Ig =P
edit : it is up !
http://arena.ig.com.br/2013-10-21/p...rgos-que-recaem-sobre-o-preco-do-console.html
And no, I don't work for Arena Ig =P
ethomaz
Banned
phosphor112
Banned
Holy shit.
Distributor margin (Sony Brazil) = R$ 257.00
...
Discount by Sony Brazil = R$ 258.00
They cut all their profit margins to keep the price down.
Distributor margin (Sony Brazil) = R$ 257.00
...
Discount by Sony Brazil = R$ 258.00
They cut all their profit margins to keep the price down.
Duxxy3
Member
Aparently there is more in that graphic .... IG will post a news with the second page ina few minutes
edit : it is up !
http://arena.ig.com.br/2013-10-21/p...rgos-que-recaem-sobre-o-preco-do-console.html
And no, I don't work for Arena Ig =P
My god. How is brazil this fucked up?
phosphor112
Banned
New thread? I'll make one.
Tiu Neo
Member
ethomaz
Banned
Nice... really cool.
I think you can post here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701248
GAF is discussing the taxes in this new thread
Aparently there is more in that graphic .... IG will post a news with the second page ina few minutes
edit : it is up !
http://arena.ig.com.br/2013-10-21/p...rgos-que-recaem-sobre-o-preco-do-console.html
And no, I don't work for Arena Ig =P
Did you noticed the profit margins? It's R$857 in profit, or $400. The profit alone is enough to buy a PS4. Taxes are clearly not the only ones to blame here.
Edit.: Another thing: in this calculation Sony is considered a price of $400 for a imported console, but that's the retail price in the US, so the real price should actually be lower.
Did you noticed the profit margins? It's R$857 in profit, or $400. The profit alone is enough to buy a PS4. Taxes are clearly not the only ones to blame here.
Edit.: Another thing: in this calculation Sony is considered a price of $400 for a imported console, but that's the retail price in the US, so the real price should actually be lower.
The manufacturing cost is most like more than $400. The wholesale price in the US may actually be the $390 SCEA is charging Sony BR. Consoles are sold with virtually no retailer margin here. That R$618 retailer margin looks huge to me. Sony claims they are refunding the distributor margin.