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The spanish persecution of Catalonia

Jon Neu

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Jan 21, 2018
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Republic of Catalonia
As a catalan, I have to make a thread about everything that is happening in my country and the neverending catalanophobia we have to suffer from our political enslavers of the spanish state.

I guess a lot of people don't know what Catalonia is, so I will start by that first.







I guess these are the 3 most famous locations of Catalonia internationally.

Catalonia, currently and sadly, is a region of Spain. It's capital is Barcelona and has always been a region with it's own language, culture and national identity. A very progressive, cosmopolitan and entrepreneur region that has always been the door to Europe and a force in the Mediterranean. From Dalí to Gaudí, from Montserrat Caballé to Pau Casals or Josep Carreras, from Pep Guardiola to the Gasol brothers or Marc Marquez; Catalonia, while being a very small nation, has always had a very fruitful culture background.

I'm not going to explain all the history of Catalonia, it's sufficient to say that catalans have seeked a referendum of self-determination for decades in this modern times, but the spanish state just ignores the catalan demands while laughing at us. So we reached a point in which we thought that the will of the catalan people was above any spanish claim of possession over our own will. We thought that we have the right to decide our own future without strangers claiming to have that right instead of us.

And from that will of voting and deciding our future and as a form of rebellious protest too, came the 1 of October referendum of self-determination. Carles Puigdemont, the President of the Generalitat (the ancient catalan government), took the leadership against the spanish state providing a plan so the spanish police couldn't find the urns and the ballots to vote.


-The president of Catalonia is the one on the left.

So while Spain and their corrupt judiciary system were doing detentions to the Generalitat employees trying to find the ballots, we the catalan population were preparing ourselves to make the vote possible by sleeping in the electoral schools the day before so the spanish police couldn't close them.

So the morning of the 1 of October arrived and everybody was on the streets searching for the places in which you could vote. I have never seen more people line up to vote in my life, that early in the morning, I was really proud of being a catalan.

But soon, the news started to arrive. Everybody was starting to receive videos of the spanish police beating people as more than 5000 spanish thugs armed with guns, batoons and a profound phobia of catalans were displayed through all the catalan territory in an operation destined to hurt, incite fear and prevent people from voting. Not even catalan dogs were safe from their violence (maybe they can't see the difference?).


Despite the repression, the referendum was a massive success and the independence won. Puigdemont still tried to negotiate with Spain, buy they just can't accept Catalonia to have it's own free will. So Puigdemont, consequently and following the dictates of the catalan people, proclaimed the Republic of Catalonia.

But the problem is, you can't implement a new state if you don't have the force to do so. Catalans are very pacifical and we don't have an army, so Spain just had to come with their armed police and put catalan politicians and cultural leaders in jail while dismanteling the catalan government and forcing new elections. We were literally a colony controlled from Madrid for a year.

Puigdemont, following a long tradition of exiled catalan presidents, exiled himself to Belgium. The spanish state wants to jail him and other catalan leaders for 30 years, but thank God the judiciary systems of countries like Belgium, Switzerland, Germany or Scotland were not as happy to have political prisoners as the spanish one.

Still, a good part of the government and some cultural catalan leaders have spent more than a year in prison by now, with a recent statement of the UN claiming that they are indeed political prisoners and should be freed inmediately.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/un-demands-release-of-catalan-leaders-pzsbwmpdh

Of course Spain isn't going to listen and is going to continue to do as they please.

And so here we are now.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Thanks for sharing and please keep us in the loop.

I don't know why self-determination is such a hard concept to grasp in the modern age. It is a big aspect of American culture so I am privileged in that respect.
 
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Alx

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Thanks for sharing and please keep us in the loop.

I don't know why self-determination is such a hard concept to grasp in the modern age. It is a big aspect of American culture so I am privileged in that respect.
Catalonia is the equivalent of California for Spain, and if California wanted to secede I doubt the US federation would ease their way to the exit. From what I understand the US Constitution doesn't have a protocol for leaving the federation, and gives all power to the federal government to release a country or not. Just like Spain.

If you guys got your independence would you guys not just take your marching orders directly from Brussels istead of them being routed through Madrid?
Technically if Catalonia were to leave Spain, it would de facto leave EU too, since the treaty was signed by Spain. They could apply for a separate membership, but that means starting everything from scratch (same goes for Scotland).
 
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Jon Neu

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Jan 21, 2018
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Republic of Catalonia
Thanks for sharing and please keep us in the loop.

I don't know why self-determination is such a hard concept to grasp in the modern age. It is a big aspect of American culture so I am privileged in that respect.
Well, there are plenty of countries in Europe that acknowledge that right . England/UK recently allowed Scotland to have their referendum, Denmark allows Greenland and the Faroe Islands and some other cases that I don't remember right now.

The problem here is that Spain was the country in which fascism flourished for more than 40 years, both politically and sociologically. They are not a full democracy, as the events regarding Catalonia and the Basque Country have shown since the Franco dictator died.

If you guys got your independence would you guys not just take your marching orders directly from Brussels istead of them being routed through Madrid?
Well, if we got our independence, allegedly we would be out of the EU.

But obviously no, being and independent country who willingly participates into a union is not the same as being an autonomous region controlled by another country. Not even remotely close.
 

bytesized

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Well, I'm a catalan and I like freedom.

You are free to give another point of view on the matter.
A forum is a place for debate and an OP should have at least some semblance of neutrality or at least show what the counter arguments are. Your text reads like a propagandist pamphlet in a desperate attempt to influence the discourse and it's quite embarrassing.

But the fact that you say "I like freedom" says it all, implying anybody that doesn't think like you doesn't (ergo, is a fascist).

Maybe I'll give my opinion on this at a later moment, don't have time to do it properly atm.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Catalonia is the equivalent of California for Spain, and if California wanted to secede I doubt the US federation would ease their way to the exit. From what I understand the US Constitution doesn't have a protocol for leaving the federation, and gives all power to the federal government to release a country or not. Just like Spain.
I'm sure that Catalonians don't view themselves as the equivalent of California, though.
 

Jon Neu

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Jan 21, 2018
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Republic of Catalonia
A forum is a place for debate and an OP should have at least some semblance of neutrality or at least show what the counter arguments are. Your text reads like a propagandist pamphlet in a desperate attempt to influence the discourse and it's quite embarrassing.
I'm not a reporter, I'm just opening a thread on my own free will for free (being catalan and doing things for free isn't easy, you know) so it's going to have my point of view on it.

Again, you are free to share your own point of view.

But the fact that you say "I like freedom" says it all, implying anybody that doesn't think like you doesn't (ergo, is a fascist).
Well, if you think the people of Catalonia don't have the right to decide their own future, then you are pretty much against freedom.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

Maybe I'll give my opinion on this at a later moment, don't have time to do it properly atm.
Just by the way you are expressing yourself you have already given your opinion.

And I know everything you are going to say next. So:

 

Alx

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I'm sure that Catalonians don't view themselves as the equivalent of California, though.
I was thinking of importance in the economy when comparing the two, and yes I think that Catalans are aware that they're the ones bringing the most amount of bread to the table. Now it doesn't cover the matter of culture and language, of course.
 

EviLore

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A forum is a place for debate and an OP should have at least some semblance of neutrality or at least show what the counter arguments are. Your text reads like a propagandist pamphlet in a desperate attempt to influence the discourse and it's quite embarrassing.
There's no pretense about neutrality in the OP and none is necessary. It's an opinion piece. He made his background and biases clear.


But the fact that you say "I like freedom" says it all, implying anybody that doesn't think like you doesn't (ergo, is a fascist).
Ridiculous.

Maybe I'll give my opinion on this at a later moment.
Start with it next time.
 

Jon Neu

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Jan 21, 2018
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Republic of Catalonia
Oh boy, I can't wait for your Tabarnia memes.

I was thinking of importance in the economy when comparing the two, and yes I think that Catalans are aware that they're the ones bringing the most amount of bread to the table. Now it doesn't cover the matter of culture and language, of course.
For me personally, the matters of being independent have little to do with economics, is just a matter of identity, national recognition and progression as a society.

It's very obvious Catalonia can't progress within Spain, is not only that Spain controls our money, but also our capacity to make laws and our capacity to express our identity, and those things are what makes a country progress or stagnate. We are at risk of being dissoluted by the spanish state (which is their ultimate goal) and become some folcloric remnant.

By the way, talking about culture I think is appropriate to put the catalan anthem here:


It's not very neutral and for that I'm truly sorry.
 

juliotendo

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To be perfectly blunt — unless Catalans are willing to pick up arms against Spain and die for the cause of having an independent nation free from Spain, nothing you do or write or try to romanticize matters.

And I don’t see Catalans running with rifles in the streets so all of this is just nonsense unfortunately. All you’re going to do is keep watching your futbol games and eating tapas at the bars.

Your people are not fighters.
 
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Jon Neu

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Republic of Catalonia
To be perfectly blunt — unless Catalans are willing to pick up arms against Spain and die for the cause of having an independent nation free from Spain, nothing you do or write or try to romanticize matters.

And I don’t see Catalans running with rifles in the streets so all of this is just nonsense unfortunately. All you’re going to do is keep watching your futbol games and eating tapas at the bars.

Your people are not fighters.
Sad but true.

I mean, you never know what is going to happen in the future, but I don't see a solution happening soon. I don't see spanish society accepting a referendum and I don't see catalans fighting in the literal sense. We protest, we make our marchs we make our acts of resistance, but that amounts to nothing because Spain isn't going to listen, they are already getting away with so much and nothing is going to change.

I doubt I will see it with my own eyes. Maybe my (imaginary) kids would enjoy my (imaginary) country in the future.

But still, I would never lose the oportunity to remember the world that I'm a catalan.

 
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bytesized

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And I know everything you are going to say next. So:

Well, here it is.

I keep thinking I'm stupid to put myself in this situation because I promised myself I would never post again in this forum but after reading your OP I just felt I had to call you out because I really dislike these kinds of intellectually dishonest efforts full of hyperbole and half truths.

I just went and wrote my counterarguments as they were popping in my head so sorry if it's a mess to read. Also, too long to proof read so sorry for any mistakes.

Independentism in Catalonia has not had a huge support "for decades", like you say. It started off as a heavily nationalistic and ethnocentric movement with rather xenophobic and racist roots (like the texts that your now president Torra used to write or the much hateful rhetoric used against Andalusian immigrants, among other things). Also, although incredibly peaceful in these recent years, don't ignore the fact that Catalan independentism gave birth to some terrorist groups back in the day like Terra Lliure which killed 5 people and injured hundreds with their attacks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Lliure. You will say that this was just long in the past, in another context, etc but the fact is that these people are present in all your demonstrations and I do not think we can rule out that, if push comes to shove, they might act again in some capacity and would receive support from certain factions of your movement. Having said that, I'm definitely more worried about violence coming from Spanish ultra nationalists because they're the dumbest fucks.

The truth, imo, is that the independentist movement's recent huge increase in popularity is heavily and clearly correlated to the financial crisis and the corruption scandals surrounding the right wing popular party in recent years which coincided with the 2008 huge global financial crisis. Spain was one of the countries that got hit the hardest by this crisis to the point that we're yet to recover from it and probably another huge crisis will come before we can get over it. It's really depressing.

But, even then, I really find it incredibly egoistical for one of the richest regions of the country to "abandon ship" during one of the greatest global financial crisis any country has endured while also breaking up the constitutional contract that had gathered more than a 90% consensus in Catalonia to then supplant it by a referendum with probably barely above 50% approval on the basis of really dubious claims like "Spain steals from us", "we will never be kicked out of the EU" or "we don't need Spain, we'll export our goods to other countries!". It's worse than Brexit, really.

But, even after having said all that, I still think that the selfish financial argument is more understandable than the cultural, ethnocentric and identitarian one that you bolster.

I'm a convinced anti-nationalist and internationalist. I was born in one part of Spain, I was raised on the opposite side of it and I've been living for a third of my life abroad. To me things like ethnicity, language, traditions, although valuable from a cultural point of view and worth cherishing or even artificially preserving, are simply arbitrary social constructs that are never worth fighting or dividing countries over. This over protectionism is going to look rather silly in a few decades when we are going to be suffering who-knows what kind of challenges on a global scale. I know you probably think Catalonia is the hottest shit but, believe me, we will need each other in the end so don't burn bridges for no reason. Just a tip.

Some other points:

- The Spanish democratic transition, like in many other countries coming out of a fascist regime, resulted in a sort of oligarchy that has largely kept the economic power in the same hands that had it during the former regime. This has meant that the capitalist power has laid heavily on the hands of right wing (when not formerly fascists) and that is a BIG problem. The thing is, exactly the same thing happened in Catalonia with the right wing elites holding most capital and power with which they've dominated the political landscape of the region until very recently. So, imo, not an argument.

- The transition also gave us our crappy monarchy which I'm heavily against but, again, is something we need to keep fighting together to change. That and a constitutional reform that would turn Spain into a federal estate in which I bet Catalonia would be much more comfortable in. The question is, why don't Catalan independentist try to push for that first? They would get incredible support from the rest of Spain, specially the left, and things could really improve for all of us in a much more realistic way than what you're trying to do all kamikaze like against the whole of Spain. In any case, monarchy really sucks but don't call Spain a fascist regime just for that because so many other countries like the UK which you show as an example of pristine democracy, also have it (and the Netherlands, Denmark, etc). So no good argument there either.

- I also agree that the popular party specially, but also the socialist party, have been incredibly corrupt and have greatly sucked during these first decades in democracy. I tell you, I hate the popular party with all my guts, I'd never vote for them, even at gunpoint. I even only voted socialist after the whole Irak war ordeal which had 90% of the country against it and threw out the right wing government swiftly because of that (pretty impressive for a country full of fascists, right?). Having said that, Catalan political class have been involved in numerous corruption cases too (we're not so different, see?). So, again, another non valid argument.

- I definitely think that the way the popular party government dealt with the 1O referendum was incredibly disgusting and one of the most stupid things I've ever seen in my life, I felt completely dumbfounded and depressed watching that. At the same time, I think the referendum was also an incredibly irresponsible power move by the independentist that was obviously meant to provoke a repressive reaction from the Spanish authorities so that you could signal boost the conflict to gain international assent (as Tarda clearly admits in this debate back in 2012 ). Of course, very few people actually expected the Spanish government to fall into this trap and play into their hands, specially with such violence. Having said that, this kind of police brutality is not unknown to Catalan authorities (or any country for that matter) and there have been numerous unwarranted police violence acts in the name of Catalan democracy too so... again, another non argument and please, don't say Spanish is a fascist state again unless you think every single policed state is one, kay?

- I also wish that no independentist politician was in pre-emptive prison while waiting for the trial. But, again, when one half of those politicians left the fucking country to avoid going to court, what do you really expect a judge will deem necessary in other to carry out the investigations necessary to be able to do their job? Before the referendum, before any of this happened, Puigdemont, your idol, was posting pictures on social media making fun of the cease and desist letters he and his government was getting warning them of the consequences of carrying out an illegal referendum and going through a unilateral declaration of independence. You do realise that if Catalonia was an independent country and Barcelona would one day go "I'm rich, yo! I'm out, bitch! On you, don't you think your government and judiciary would not oppose that in a similar way? Don't you think you would also go out of your way to enforce the law to make sure that shit doesn't happen? Do you imagine what would happen in a Trump government if rich progressive California would decide to unilaterally secede from the rest of the US just for financial reasons? I'm telling you, the 1O police violence and the 155 article would be NOTHING compared to the shit storm that would cause. So, yeah, I'm really sorry your politicians are in jail but they knew what they were getting into and once this goes from a political issue into a legal one there's no stopping the train and the judiciary system for better or worse will have to do its thing. I really hope they are all freed asap but I really don't think the government should intervene because that would undermine the separation between the judiciary and the legislative and, if that happens, I'm sure independentists would still be like "hey, see, the government controls everything! So corrupt!". Damned if you do damned if you don't, basically. But, again, no argument, sorry.

So, well, that's it. TL/DR version:

I think Spain is not perfect but it's also not the enslaving tyranny hellscape you make it out to be.
I think your movement was doing things well but fucked up by going forward with the illegal referendum and posterior unilateral independence declarations.
I also think that you disguise your truly nationalistic and ethnocentric motivations, along with very selfish attitude, with a fight for freedom and democracy by using a lot of hyperbole and plain lies.
I also think independentist movements like yours make no sense in this day and age and only serve to weaken Europe. Future decades are going to be really really tough for us with mass immigration, water shortages, climate change effects, etc etc and we need to be more united than ever.
If you put your flag and identity before these much more important issues then I'm really sorry for you and your short sightedness.

And I'll also say that it was stupid of me to say that your OP had to be neutral. What I meant though was that, if I was to make an OP about such a complex issue, even if I would have a real strong opinion about it, I would at least try to let the readers know of what some of the counter arguments are and address them. But whatever, you do you.

Bye!
 

Jon Neu

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Jan 21, 2018
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Republic of Catalonia
Independentism in Catalonia has not had a huge support "for decades", like you say.
That's true, it has actually been centuries.

This is the fourth time the government of Catalonia declares the Catalan republic. The first time was in 1641, the second one in 1873, the third one in 1931 and the fourth one in 2017.

Catalonia remains in Spain by force, otherwise it would have been independent long ago.

It started off as a heavily nationalistic and ethnocentric movement with rather xenophobic and racist roots (like the texts that your now president Torra used to write or the much hateful rhetoric used against Andalusian immigrants, among other things)
We want our own nation, of course that is nationalistic and ethnocentric (bearing in mind that for us, catalan is everybody that lives and works in Catalonia).

Now you are starting to throw propaganda in with the ridiculous claims of xenophobia and racism, when Catalonia it's actually and by far, the most progressive and open society of the spanish state.

I mean, we are borderline SJW. We celebrate diversity so much is not even funny. If Catalonia was an independent state, it would be more similar to Sweden than to Spain (a state that trully embraces supremacism as their motto, because it literally was born from it).

President Torra critiziced the people who live at Catalonia but hate everything catalan; they hate the catalan language, they hate the catalan culture and they hate the catalan identity. They are here just to shout "You are spanish! Look at your national ID!".

He was critizing spanish supremacism. And sadly, Catalonia has a lot of this people.

Also, although incredibly peaceful in these recent years, don't ignore the fact that Catalan independentism gave birth to some terrorist groups back in the day like Terra Lliure which killed 5 people and injured hundreds with their attacks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Lliure.
Well, if you want to talk about Terra LLiure, you should also talk about the spanish state back then. Terra LLiure was born amongst more than 500 people killed in the streets by the spanish police/military, with the military power threatening with another coup d'etat and the dissolution of the catalan rights & borders.

And yet, Terra Lliure has never the support of the catalan society, the catalan media or the catalan population. We can't say the same about the spanish terrorism of state that still lives to this day.

Everything is good in the name of the holy "unity" of Spain.

Having said that, I'm definitely more worried about violence coming from Spanish ultra nationalists because they're the dumbest fucks.
I'm not worried about that, we have always suffered the violence from the neonazis and spanish supremacists. They are more excited and they feel more supported and vindicated now, but is the same old.

The really dangerous violence is the one exercised by the spanish state, the spanish judiciary system or the spanish media, because it's totally scot-free in doing so and it's far bigger and prevalent.

The truth, imo, is that the independentist movement's recent huge increase in popularity is heavily and clearly correlated to the financial crisis and the corruption scandals surrounding the right wing popular party in recent years which coincided with the 2008 huge global financial crisis. Spain was one of the countries that got hit the hardest by this crisis to the point that we're yet to recover from it and probably another huge crisis will come before we can get over it. It's really depressing.
Well, you couldn't be more wrong.

The "recent" increase in popularity of independentism came because of the Estatut. Remember that? When Catalonia and it's citizens, acting according the rules the spanish state enforced, created a new Estatut that the president of Spain promised to enact.

And then the spanish supremacism turned crazy. PP went to collect signatures against the Estatut, he went to their favourite spanish judiciary system that they shaped in their benefit and image, the political tribunal of the Constitucional to throw away Catalan democrac (and therefore spanish democracy) and destroy everything the catalans voted for. Showing us again, that Catalonia can't literally progress inside the spanish state and the only way of doing so is by not being dependent of the spanish state.

And all that shitstorm was made with an unbelievable rise of catalanophobia in the spanish media also, that just like now, they were talking ALL FUCKING DAY about it. You know how hard it is to live in a country in which the media trashes you, your identity and your ideals every day of the week in the most cruel manners they can think of? It's borderline psychological torture. Thank God internet now is well established and we have an escape from the imposed media narrative, but 11 years ago that wasn't the case.

So yeah, people in Catalonia got sick of that and that's why independentism have growed.

But, even then, I really find it incredibly egoistical for one of the richest regions of the country to "abandon ship" during one of the greatest global financial crisis any country has endured while also breaking up the constitutional contract that had gathered more than a 90% consensus in Catalonia to then supplant it by a referendum with probably barely above 50% approval on the basis of really dubious claims like "Spain steals from us", "we will never be kicked out of the EU" or "we don't need Spain, we'll export our goods to other countries!". It's worse than Brexit, really.
Well, spanish nationalists (and that's what you really are, not an "anti-nationalist) love to bring the 90% of support to the spanish constitution in Catalonia.

Remember, we were in a fascist state that was especially hostile to Catalonia, it's identity, language and culture. We had more than 500 persons dying in the streets, we had the military threatening with another coup and therefore perpetuating the dictatorship.

Of course people are going to jump in the only option of breaking out from that. They didn't had any other option. It was voting the constitution or remaining a dictatorship, hardly a choice, especially when people were dying on the streets or in their homes.

And the constitution was just a minimal pact (in which Spain recognized that Catalonia was a nation), it was something to start from there, not the end of it all like spanish supremacists claim now.

- The transition also gave us our crappy monarchy which I'm heavily against but, again, is something we need to keep fighting together to change. That and a constitutional reform that would turn Spain into a federal estate in which I bet Catalonia would be much more comfortable in. The question is, why don't Catalan independentist try to push for that first? They would get incredible support from the rest of Spain, specially the left, and things could really improve for all of us in a much more realistic way than what you're trying to do all kamikaze like against the whole of Spain. In any case, monarchy really sucks but don't call Spain a fascist regime just for that because so many other countries like the UK which you show as an example of pristine democracy, also have it (and the Netherlands, Denmark, etc). So no good argument there either.
The transition? The monarchy was installed there by Franco, the transition just went along with it, as with everything else. But I don't fucking care about monarchy.

And sorry, but at this point we can't believe your lies anymore. Spain isn't going to be a federal estate. We have heard that ridiculous tale over and over again and it's just an empty subterfuge. The spanish state, the spanish judiciary system, the spanish media and the spanish population ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED THE ESTATUT WITH SO MUCH HATE. And now you dream of a federal estate? Don't make me fucking puke and laugh at the same time. If you fool me once, it's your fault, if you fool me twice, shame for me.

And what's the point of a federal estate anyway? It's going to be the exact same shit with a different name.

- I also wish that no independentist politician was in pre-emptive prison while waiting for the trial. But, again, when one half of those politicians left the fucking country to avoid going to court, what do you really expect a judge will deem necessary in other to carry out the investigations necessary to be able to do their job?
Sorry dude, you should inform yourself better. Catalan politicans and cultural leaders were detained long before Puigdemont went to Belgium. Stop believing the silly justifications for jailing the catalan political prisoners, we all know it's just vengeance and political punishment the motives behind it.

And I'm not even to touch your silly justifications of the violence of the spanish state the 1 of October.

You do realise that if Catalonia was an independent country and Barcelona would one day go "I'm rich, yo! I'm out, bitch! On you, don't you think your government and judiciary would not oppose that in a similar way? Don't you think you would also go out of your way to enforce the law to make sure that shit doesn't happen?
It's funny, you seem to forget one of the most popular "arguments" of the spanish nationalists: the Valley of Aran.

Aran, like Catalonia, has also it's own identity, language and culture. And Catalonia has always respected that and has always been happy to find any solution the aranese potentially would want if they some day decided to seek independence.

So yeah, I'm sure we wouldn't act the same way as Spain, because first, we would listen and not ignore the other part, we would be sympathetic with a minority and just not enforce our greatest number of population to hold them against their will.

I really hope they are all freed asap but I really don't think the government should intervene because that would undermine the separation between the judiciary and the legislative and, if that happens, I'm sure independentists would still be like "hey, see, the government controls everything! So corrupt!". Damned if you do damned if you don't, basically. But, again, no argument, sorry.
It's funny because you act as the if the entire Constitutional court wasn't precisely a political judiciary system made to defend the spanish nationalists against the national minorities. As if everything that happened with the political prisoners wasn't put in march by the political elites of Spain (monarchy included).

I think Spain is not perfect but it's also not the enslaving tyranny hellscape you make it out to be.
Spain is the worst thing that ever happened to Catalonia. Plain and simple.

I think your movement was doing things well but fucked up by going forward with the illegal referendum and posterior unilateral independence declarations.
So, tell me, what should catalans do? More than 70% of catalans want a referendum. The government of Catalonia has asked the spanish state multiple times for a solution in the last 20 years, but the answer is always the same: lol, shut up!

What is your realistic solution? To ignore the people of Catalonia over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again till the end of times and then complain when they, finally do something to broke that wheel?

Promise us a federal state that is not only impossible to happen, but also irrelevant and doesn't solve literally anything?

Stop poking fun at us, please.

I also think independentist movements like yours make no sense in this day and age and only serve to weaken Europe
Well, Europe is showing to be a fraud, so I'm happy to weaken this oligarchal version of it.

Future decades are going to be really really tough for us with mass immigration, water shortages, climate change effects, etc etc and we need to be more united than ever.

If you put your flag and identity before these much more important issues then I'm really sorry for you and your short sightedness.
Dude, we have never been united, you don't want us to be united, you want servitude and disposal of the catalan identity. You don't want to treat Catalonia as an equal, you just want to control us and force us to be spanish or else, that's all you really care about.
 
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Jon Neu

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especially when people were dying on the streets or in their homes.
I want to cite one of my favourite songs in catalan, a song about a young student from Madrid in those days (yeah, one of the most iconic catalan nationalistic songs is about some dude in Madrid, because we are so xenophobic according to the spanish nationalists).


I wish there was a version with english subtitles (maybe I should do one). The title of the song is more or less What does this people want? And the song became an anthem to catalanists. Sadly it has became relevant again in this troubled times of violence, political prisoners and repression.

Still, one of the most beautiful songs I have ever heard in my language.
 

*Nightwing

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Well, here it is.

I keep thinking I'm stupid to put myself in this situation because I promised myself I would never post again in this forum but after reading your OP I just felt I had to call you out because I really dislike these kinds of intellectually dishonest efforts full of hyperbole and half truths.

I just went and wrote my counterarguments as they were popping in my head so sorry if it's a mess to read. Also, too long to proof read so sorry for any mistakes.

Independentism in Catalonia has not had a huge support "for decades", like you say.
You lost me instantly here. You are correct as it hasn't been decades it's been centuries of Catalans looking for independence. But you lost me by accusing of hyperbole and intellectual dishonesty and proceeding to support your argument that very same way. @Jon Neu saved me time by counterarguing your points thankfully for my lazy ass
 
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bytesized

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That's true, it has actually been centuries.


This is the fourth time the government of Catalonia declares the Catalan republic. The first time was in 1641, the second one in 1873, the third one in 1931 and the fourth one in 2017.


Catalonia remains in Spain by force, otherwise it would have been independent long ago.

When you said "modern times" in your original post I assumed you meant "in democracy" and what I meant to say is that independentist support was really really low throughout the first decades and that Catalonia and the rest of Spain got along just fine during those years. It's not like the constitution was approved with a 98% acceptance and the next day 70% of Catalonia was crying about it for the next two decades asking for a referendum. That's what I meant. Am I wrong?


We want our own nation, of course that is nationalistic and ethnocentric (bearing in mind that for us, catalan is everybody that lives and works in Catalonia).


Now you are starting to throw propaganda in with the ridiculous claims of xenophobia and racism, when Catalonia it's actually and by far, the most progressive and open society of the spanish state.

Read what I said. I meant that originally it was very ethnocentric and elitist, specially against migrants from other parts of Spain. Nowadays, thankfully, the situation is very different and, as you said, the movement widely accepts immigrants from all over. As long as they are independentists, of course, and that's the big problem here, the constant implication that true catalan = independentist Catalan. I mean, look at what Forcadell was saying here "Our enemy is the Spanish estate" "parties like the popular party and ciudadanos are not Catalan" "we are the true Catalan people"... Yikes! An independent Catalonia with people like this at the wheel sounds quite scary too.


President Torra critiziced the people who live at Catalonia but hate everything catalan; they hate the catalan language, they hate the catalan culture and they hate the catalan identity. They are here just to shout "You are spanish! Look at your national ID!".


He was critizing spanish supremacism. And sadly, Catalonia has a lot of this people.

Dude, most independentist leaders have criticised Torra for those texts, they are clearly xenophobic and disgusting, how can you defend them? You can read it all here.


https://maldita.es/maldito-bulo/que-ha-escrito-realmente-quim-torra-y-que-no/


Well, if you want to talk about Terra LLiure, you should also talk about the spanish state back then. Terra LLiure was born amongst more than 500 people killed in the streets by the spanish police/military, with the military power threatening with another coup d'etat and the dissolution of the catalan rights & borders.


And yet, Terra Lliure has never the support of the catalan society, the catalan media or the catalan population. We can't say the same about the spanish terrorism of state that still lives to this day.

Read again. I'm not saying it would have the support of the majority. I'm just saying that it's happened before and it can happen again if things get really bad. Do you rule that out completely?


The really dangerous violence is the one exercised by the spanish state, the spanish judiciary system or the spanish media, because it's totally scot-free in doing so and it's far bigger and prevalent.

Again, every estate is inherently authoritarian and will uphold the law using violence against its own people if necessary. It sucks, it's sad but that's the reality of this world and an independent Catalonia would not be any different. You just feel this way because the Spanish estate is in this case affecting you and your cause directly but it's just the same, or even worse, when police evict people from their homes, when they repress peaceful demonstrations.. oh yeah, like the 15M one that the Catalan government was so happy to send Mossos over to beat the crap out of peaceful protesters


Here the police violence in 2011:

Here the declarations of the Catalan president defending the use of force against its people in the name of the law and democracy:

It's really weird how, after the 1-O, you all now embrace the mossoss because they are "your police" and forget to see that in an independent estate they will beat the crap out of you no questions asked if your government feels like it.


Well, you couldn't be more wrong.


The "recent" increase in popularity of independentism came because of the Estatut. Remember that? When Catalonia and it's citizens, acting according the rules the spanish state enforced, created a new Estatut that the president of Spain promised to enact.


And then the spanish supremacism turned crazy. PP went to collect signatures against the Estatut, he went to their favourite spanish judiciary system that they shaped in their benefit and image, the political tribunal of the Constitucional to throw away Catalan democrac (and therefore spanish democracy) and destroy everything the catalans voted for. Showing us again, that Catalonia can't literally progress inside the spanish state and the only way of doing so is by not being dependent of the spanish state.


And all that shitstorm was made with an unbelievable rise of catalanophobia in the spanish media also, that just like now, they were talking ALL FUCKING DAY about it. You know how hard it is to live in a country in which the media trashes you, your identity and your ideals every day of the week in the most cruel manners they can think of? It's borderline psychological torture. Thank God internet now is well established and we have an escape from the imposed media narrative, but 11 years ago that wasn't the case.


So yeah, people in Catalonia got sick of that and that's why independentism have growed.

Of course I know about the estatut. I was however under the impression that before that whole thing went down independentism was already on the rise but checking now some data here https://debate21.es/2015/11/16/cuando-crecio-el-independentismo-en-catalunya/
It seems that through the first years of the crisis (2006-2010) it grew from 19% to 25% and in the next 4 years after the estatut it doubled that.


So no problem in admitting I was wrong on this. However, you must surely admit how much the movement has capitalized on this crisis by repeating time and time again how "Spain steals from us", "without Spain we would be like Norway or Switzerland", etc etc. I mean, probably you believe all those things.
I am convinced that without the crisis the independence movement would not be as big as it is now and, without that extra push, who knows if independent parties would've had a majority and would've dared to go through with the whole "proces". Same as the fact of having the PP as the ruling party in Spain. The PP is, as it is always said, an "independentist- making machine" and, had the PSOE been in power (if they wouldn't have screwed so bad when the crisis hit), I'm also sure independentism would not have had that clear antagonistic power to rally up their base. So, it is in this sense that I think "el proces" was a very opportunistic and heavily engineered social movement that, even though it had a grassroots component it was also very well designed in a top down way.


Well, spanish nationalists (and that's what you really are, not an "anti-nationalist) love to bring the 90% of support to the spanish constitution in Catalonia.


Remember, we were in a fascist state that was especially hostile to Catalonia, it's identity, language and culture. We had more than 500 persons dying in the streets, we had the military threatening with another coup and therefore perpetuating the dictatorship.


Of course people are going to jump in the only option of breaking out from that. They didn't had any other option. It was voting the constitution or remaining a dictatorship, hardly a choice, especially when people were dying on the streets or in their homes.


And the constitution was just a minimal pact (in which Spain recognized that Catalonia was a nation), it was something to start from there, not the end of it all like spanish supremacists claim now.

Completely agree but this was the case for the whole Spain, not just Catalonia, and, as I said before, it's not like independentist sentiments were prevalent in Catalonia around that time anyway, otherwise independentist parties would've quickly gained steam under democracy and they didn't. The fact is that for a couple of decades Catalonia was doing well within Spain and, I don't know how old you are, but in 92 when the Olympic games were held in Barcelona I can tell you that the whole fucking country was ecstatic and incredibly proud of it. I grew up watching TV3, canal 33, club super 3... the 80s and 90s, as far as I could tell, were pretty chill, there were no constant news about how terribly Spain is treating Catalan culture as far as I remember. Now things have gone south, probably irreversibly, and I'm not going to blame you for it but I really think that many decisions made around and after the referendum were terrible and many independentist politicians have admitted to this.
Also, I'm a nationalist... ? ok


And sorry, but at this point we can't believe your lies anymore. Spain isn't going to be a federal estate. We have heard that ridiculous tale over and over again and it's just an empty subterfuge. The spanish state, the spanish judiciary system, the spanish media and the spanish population ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED THE ESTATUT WITH SO MUCH HATE. And now you dream of a federal estate? Don't make me fucking puke and laugh at the same time. If you fool me once, it's your fault, if you fool me twice, shame for me.


And what's the point of a federal estate anyway? It's going to be the exact same shit with a different name.

Well, a federal estate would be better than the estatut that you say was so important to get. It could also be a stepping stone towards a future independence, who knows?


It might not be the ideal scenario in your head but when your proposal involves stripping half of your own population from what was their country for generations under false pretenses and going against a constitutional pact that, as much as you or I might disagree with, is what the majority of people want to follow... then we have a problem.


Like I said, I don't like pp or ciudadanos, but I will definitely defend the rights of their voters for a fair treatment, they are as Catalan as you are.


A unilateral independence with 50% of the region opposing it is just a recipe for disaster like Brexit is showing right now (and that's just leaving a really uninvolved relationship with Europe, imagine the same thing but between two nations that have coexisted for centuries!)


I know achieving independence through legal means in the current political climate seems impossible but, what do you want me to say, you really chose a really bad moment to go through with this plan.


Sorry dude, you should inform yourself better. Catalan politicans and cultural leaders were detained long before Puigdemont went to Belgium. Stop believing the silly justifications for jailing the catalan political prisoners, we all know it's just vengeance and political punishment the motives behind it.

I assume that judges keep in custody somebody right away so that they don't interfere with investigations and destroy evidence and once they have everything to build up the case they should release them under bail until the trial. I am no legal expert and I'm not sure if they were held beyond a reasonable time before Puigdemont bailed out so maybe you're right. But it's undeniable that Puigdemont and other politicians fleeing and evading justice only made the prospect for those that stayed way way worse. I mean, it's notoriously known that Junqueras was super pissed at Puigdemont because he left without telling anyone.


And I'm not even to touch your silly justifications of the violence of the spanish state the 1 of October.

I only said that all estates repress their population when they do something against the law even when they are legitimized to do so. In my opinion the Spanish government should've just campaigned to let people know that no result coming from that election would have any validity and that's that. If after all that a unilateral declaration of independence would have been pronounced then I definitely think that the Spanish estate was legitimized to enforce article 155 and call for new elections like they did (which, by the way, unlike many other countries in which independentist parties are illegal, here in Spain, after the article 155 was lifted, all Catalan independentist parties were able to run for elections and the PP had one of the worst electoral results ever. How can that happen in a fascist authoritarian estate like Spain?).
In any case and to conclude, the police violence exercised on 1-O was completely unnecessary, disgusting and even counterproductive to the unionist side.


It's funny, you seem to forget one of the most popular "arguments" of the spanish nationalists: the Valley of Aran.


Aran, like Catalonia, has also it's own identity, language and culture. And Catalonia has always respected that and has always been happy to find any solution the aranese potentially would want if they some day decided to seek independence.

Why would you care about losing Valley of Aran? That's not a good analogy. You would certainly hate the possibility of losing Barcelona because it is of utmost importance to Catalonia, just like Catalonia is to Spain, let's be real here.


It's funny because you act as the if the entire Constitutional court wasn't precisely a political judiciary system made to defend the spanish nationalists against the national minorities. As if everything that happened with the political prisoners wasn't put in march by the political elites of Spain (monarchy included).

We definitely should reform the constitutional Court system and how the jurors are elected. Hey, another realistic thing to try to change in agreement with the rest of Spanish people so we can all improve our lives! Actually, I think that most parties nowadays agree with changing this and this will happen soon. Just don't expect that a constitutional jury will ever allow for anything that goes against the constitution like a unilateral declaration of independence, of course, that's just not realistic.


Spain is the worst thing that ever happened to Catalonia. Plain and simple.

Spain has a lot of problems, I criticize it daily and, aside from the gastronomy and a few other things, I'm not that proud of it. Still, I think that insulting Spain and its people constantly is also one of the reasons why catalanophobia spreads among many (of course fuelled by the onslaught of far right media channels that spread hate and fake news non stop). Nationalists from each side feed off the hate of each other and grow and grow until a conflict occurs. Not putting your typical Catalan nationalist at the same level as a full blown Spanish fascist, of course. Although Catalan nazis are also a thing right?


So, tell me, what should catalans do? More than 70% of catalans want a referendum. The government of Catalonia has asked the spanish state multiple times for a solution in the last 20 years, but the answer is always the same: lol, shut up!


What is your realistic solution? To ignore the people of Catalonia over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again till the end of times and then complain when they, finally do something to broke that wheel?


Promise us a federal state that is not only impossible to happen, but also irrelevant and doesn't solve literally anything?


Stop poking fun at us, please.

To be honest, I might believe in you achieving independence more than yourself from what I read. The popular party is already insignificant in Catalonia and Basque country. I think that if ciudadanos and the socialist party would follow the same path as them and you would reach a 70% representation in your parliament then the Spanish government would probably be forced to call for a referendum which you would obviously win.


I think that the Catalan media, the elites and most culturally relevant figures in Catalonia are mostly independentist and that influence will inexorably attract younger generations towards independentist stances.


The idea of a new country in which you can start everything over and all will be perfect, even if it's based on a lot of lies and false promises, is just a much more attractive proposition than staying in the same country that sent policemen from all over so that they could hit your grandparents to prevent them from voting for independence. It just doesn't sell very well, nope.


So yeah, I think you have a great chance of getting there but that doesn't mean I'm not going to think for myself, have my own world view and disapprove of splitting society up in tribes instead of trying to solve our problems together. It's the way I think, sorry.


Well, Europe is showing to be a fraud, so I'm happy to weaken this oligarchal version of it.

Yup, Europe also has problems, let's solve them together!


Dude, we have never been united, you don't want us to be united, you want servitude and disposal of the catalan identity. You don't want to treat Catalonia as an equal, you just want to control us and force us to be spanish or else, that's all you really care about.

Some might think like that but I'm sure that most Spanish people don't want a homogeneous country and, on the contrary, deeply enjoy the diversity of cultures and places in their country which is one of our greatest and most appreciated characteristics as I'm always reminded of whenever I speak with foreigners that have travelled to Spain.


I don't believe we've never been united like you do but it certainly feels like we're too far apart from ever reconciling again. The fact that that makes you happy while it makes me sad says more about you than it says about me though.


Anyway, unless you want me to say anything else this will be my last message.
 

bytesized

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You lost me instantly here. You are correct as it hasn't been decades it's been centuries of Catalans looking for independence. But you lost me by accusing of hyperbole and intellectual dishonesty and proceeding to support your argument that very same way. @Jon Neu saved me time by counterarguing your points thankfully for my lazy ass
As I mention in my reply to Jon Neu, I said that in response to his sentence in which he mentioned the pursue of independence in "modern times". By that I assumed he meant during the current democratic era. I know Catalonia has had an independentist movement for a very long time, of course, it would be ridiculous for me to negate something so obvious.
 

Jon Neu

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When you said "modern times" in your original post I assumed you meant "in democracy" and what I meant to say is that independentist support was really really low throughout the first decades and that Catalonia and the rest of Spain got along just fine during those years. It's not like the constitution was approved with a 98% acceptance and the next day 70% of Catalonia was crying about it for the next two decades asking for a referendum. That's what I meant. Am I wrong?
People were coming from a brutal dictatorship that lasted more than 40 years. They were fucking terrified and exhausted.

Of course it takes time to go back to normal (before the civil war, the most voted party in Catalonia was a nationalistic party).

Read what I said. I meant that originally it was very ethnocentric and elitist, specially against migrants from other parts of Spain. Nowadays, thankfully, the situation is very different and, as you said, the movement widely accepts immigrants from all over. As long as they are independentists, of course, and that's the big problem here, the constant implication that true catalan = independentist Catalan. I mean, look at what Forcadell was saying here "Our enemy is the Spanish estate" "parties like the popular party and ciudadanos are not Catalan" "we are the true Catalan people"... Yikes! An independent Catalonia with people like this at the wheel sounds quite scary too.
It's funny to see a live manipulation right here, in NeoGaf. I guess you simply don't understand catalan, because that wasn't what Forcadell said, at all.

And regarding spanish immigration, catalans knew that spanish supremacists and the Franco's regime wanted to erase the catalan language and identity by sending millions of spanish immigrants to Catalonia.



I'm going to translate the most relevant quotes so our people here can understand them:


-We have to fill Catalonia of the worst Spain has.
-We have to enact the immigration of spanish talking people to Catalonia to assure the spanish sentiment.
-But a warning. This conduct is over, treason is over, we would prefere to see this lands (Catalonia) pulverized before seeing them again against the holy fates of Spain.
-Catalans matter only when they speak spanish.
-Catalan; jew and renegade, you will pay the damage you have caused.
-That in schools books should not be allowed in catalan language, neither write or talk catalan in them. The christian doctrine should be in spanish.
-Catalonia was occupied by Felipe IV, who defeated it, was bombed by Espartero and we occupied it in 1939 and we are willing to occupy Catalonia as many times as it's necessary and for that I'm ready to take the rifle again.

The last one it's especially funny, because it's from Manuel Fraga, one of the fathers of the spanish constitution; a vile fascist and murderer who created the "democratic" Spain.

So yeah, catalans knew the spanish immigration had a goal, and that goal was to dissolve the catalan language, identity and culture and supplant it with the spanish equivalents.

Catalonia received more spanish immigrants than the previous whole population of Catalonia before immigration. So it's pretty understandable that some people were not very happy with that inmense level of immigration and the risk that still lives to this day of becoming literally supplanted. Could you imagine if Spain received 45 million of immigrants from Morroco and they started to not use spanish, talk about how Spain doesn't exist because it's actually Al-Andalus and belongs to muslims? Try to imagine that for a second.

Dude, most independentist leaders have criticised Torra for those texts, they are clearly xenophobic and disgusting, how can you defend them? You can read it all here.
Again, you seem to not understand catalan, because those texts don't talk about any group of people that can be identified by their birth. He was talking about those people who are catalanophobic, and they can literally be from anywhere, Catalonia included.

Again, every estate is inherently authoritarian and will uphold the law using violence against its own people if necessary. It sucks, it's sad but that's the reality of this world and an independent Catalonia would not be any different. You just feel this way because the Spanish estate is in this case affecting you and your cause directly but it's just the same, or even worse, when police evict people from their homes, when they repress peaceful demonstrations.
You are constantly trying to justify the spanish state by saying things like "everybody does it!" (wich is a lie) or by Catalonia did something similar (which is also a lie).

I guess you have to reconcile your spanish nationalism with the sad reality of your estate.

It's really weird how, after the 1-O, you all now embrace the mossoss because they are "your police" and forget to see that in an independent estate they will beat the crap out of you no questions asked if your government feels like it.
Hahahaha

With this is clear that you only have a superficial understandment of the catalan politics and society. You talk with the information the spanish press gives you, so I can understand your level of wrongness.

What the Mossos did those days became one of the most serious crisis of the catalan government and absolutely all the catalan society hold them responsibles for it. It was a fucking SHITSTORM, because If catalans have one thing, it's critical spirit. We want to be perfect, and that wasn't what the catalan people wanted their society to be.

Totally different from how spaniards are reacting to the 1 of October, which by the way, was FAR WORSE. And I'm not even touching everything that happened after it.

So no problem in admitting I was wrong on this. However, you must surely admit how much the movement has capitalized on this crisis by repeating time and time again how "Spain steals from us", "without Spain we would be like Norway or Switzerland", etc etc. I mean, probably you believe all those things.
That doesn't have anything to do with the crisis.

And yes, I believe all those things. Spain stoles our money every year, even the puppet government installed in the Generalitat by the spanish state during the 155 colonization admitted the same exact numbers independentists have been saying for years. The exact same numbers.

And yeah, Catalonia being independent would rise as a progressive and modern country in a very little time. I have no doubt about it.

am convinced that without the crisis the independence movement would not be as big as it is now and, without that extra push, who knows if independent parties would've had a majority and would've dared to go through with the whole "proces". Same as the fact of having the PP as the ruling party in Spain. The PP is, as it is always said, an "independentist- making machine" and, had the PSOE been in power (if they wouldn't have screwed so bad when the crisis hit), I'm also sure independentism would not have had that clear antagonistic power to rally up their base. So, it is in this sense that I think "el proces" was a very opportunistic and heavily engineered social movement that, even though it had a grassroots component it was also very well designed in a top down way.
Whatever makes you feel better.

But if you think there is any difference whatsoever between PP, PSOE, C'S or VOX when it comes to Catalonia, you haven't been paying attention.

Completely agree but this was the case for the whole Spain, not just Catalonia, and, as I said before, it's not like independentist sentiments were prevalent in Catalonia around that time anyway, otherwise independentist parties would've quickly gained steam under democracy and they didn't. The fact is that for a couple of decades Catalonia was doing well within Spain and, I don't know how old you are, but in 92 when the Olympic games were held in Barcelona I can tell you that the whole fucking country was ecstatic and incredibly proud of it. I grew up watching TV3, canal 33, club super 3... the 80s and 90s, as far as I could tell, were pretty chill, there were no constant news about how terribly Spain is treating Catalan culture as far as I remember. Now things have gone south, probably irreversibly, and I'm not going to blame you for it but I really think that many decisions made around and after the referendum were terrible and many independentist politicians have admitted to this.
Also, I'm a nationalist... ? ok
Again, before the civil war and the fascist dictatorship, in Catalonia the elections were won by the nationalists. How do you think Francesc Macia proclaimed the Republic in 1931? By being the most voted party and therefore being the President of Catalonia.

But with the civil war and the dictatorship, the brutal immigration of spaniards to Catalonia begun and the oppression made a lot of people feel terrified of their own ideas and feelings. For some reason you think a society can go outside of an incredibly long dictatorship and a brutal wave of immigration in the blink of an eye like nothing ever happened. It takes time to make everything go back to it's natural course.

And of course people wanted to be chill first. People wanted to live life a little bit, and even some people even believed everything was going to be nice and perfect.

Well, a federal estate would be better than the estatut that you say was so important to get. It could also be a stepping stone towards a future independence, who knows?
A federal state spanish style it's going to be the exact same thing as now, just with a different name.

And by the way, it's also impossible because the spanish society doesn't want to concede anything to the catalans, and for some reason they think becoming a federal state is giving in to the catalans.

It might not be the ideal scenario in your head but when your proposal involves stripping half of your own population from what was their country for generations under false pretenses and going against a constitutional pact that, as much as you or I might disagree with, is what the majority of people want to follow... then we have a problem.
Your proposal involves the same stripping in half your own population from what their country is under falses pretenses and going against the will of the catalan people.

Like I said, I don't like pp or ciudadanos, but I will definitely defend the rights of their voters for a fair treatment, they are as Catalan as you are.
In which way are they not fair treated? They have all the media and the deep state behind them.

A unilateral independence with 50% of the region opposing it is just a recipe for disaster like Brexit is showing right now (and that's just leaving a really uninvolved relationship with Europe, imagine the same thing but between two nations that have coexisted for centuries!)
Politically enslaving people inside a country they don't belong to while ignoring them it's the recipe for disaster that has brought everything you complain about.

I know achieving independence through legal means in the current political climate seems impossible but, what do you want me to say, you really chose a really bad moment to go through with this plan.
Achieving independence through "legal means" in Spain it's impossible. We are a minority of 7 million, Spain has 35 million and they aren't going to vote against themselves, obviously.

And where is a good moment according to you?

I mean, it's notoriously known that Junqueras was super pissed at Puigdemont because he left without telling anyone.
Stop believing spanish propaganda.

(which, by the way, unlike many other countries in which independentist parties are illegal, here in Spain, after the article 155 was lifted, all Catalan independentist parties were able to run for elections and the PP had one of the worst electoral results ever. How can that happen in a fascist authoritarian estate like Spain?).
Yes, we are able to run for elections (thank you Spain!), but what people vote it's irrelevant, because 4 old man in Madrid designed by the spanish nationalist parties have more power over Catalonia than the entire population of Catalonia. They can enforce elections, destroy governments, take politicians out, destroy catalan laws, change the catalan laws as they please, etc...

Democracy in Spain it's just a farce.

Why would you care about losing Valley of Aran? That's not a good analogy. You would certainly hate the possibility of losing Barcelona because it is of utmost importance to Catalonia, just like Catalonia is to Spain, let's be real here.
Oh, it's the perfect analogy. You can't be independent from night to day just because you say so. Catalonia has a deep history, it's own language, culture and national identity. Aran also has those things, so if they wanted to be independent, it's understandable.

Spanish nationalist just want to reduce everything ad absurdum. Catalonia independent? Then how about my neighborhood! What about Barcelona! What about Tabarnia!

It's just throwing a silly tantrum searching for an equally silly gotcha because you can't accept catalans having their own different identity.

We definitely should reform the constitutional Court system and how the jurors are elected. Hey, another realistic thing to try to change in agreement with the rest of Spanish people so we can all improve our lives! Actually, I think that most parties nowadays agree with changing this and this will happen soon. Just don't expect that a constitutional jury will ever allow for anything that goes against the constitution like a unilateral declaration of independence, of course, that's just not realistic.
We? Don't make me laugh, man. Spain invented the constitutional court precisely to go against Catalonia and the Basque Country according to the law. They didn't demanded our opinion, and "we" are going to change it?

There's no we, there's you and us.

Spain has a lot of problems, I criticize it daily and, aside from the gastronomy and a few other things, I'm not that proud of it. Still, I think that insulting Spain and its people constantly is also one of the reasons why catalanophobia spreads among many (of course fuelled by the onslaught of far right media channels that spread hate and fake news non stop). Nationalists from each side feed off the hate of each other and grow and grow until a conflict occurs. Not putting your typical Catalan nationalist at the same level as a full blown Spanish fascist, of course. Although Catalan nazis are also a thing right?
I'm not insulting anybody.

By saying that Spain is literally the worst thing that ever happened to Catalonia, I'm just stating a pretty objective historical fact. No other country has caused that many damage, that many suffering, that many lives lost, that many land lost, that level of oppression and catalanophobia through history than Spain.

I don't want anything bad happening to Spain, I just want to be not dependent of Spain.

So yeah, I think you have a great chance of getting there but that doesn't mean I'm not going to think for myself, have my own world view and disapprove of splitting society up in tribes instead of trying to solve our problems together. It's the way I think, sorry.
I dissaprove of splitting society up in tribes, but I'm going to defend forever the holy unity of Spain, because my tribe can exist and yours don't.

Ok.

Yup, Europe also has problems, let's solve them together!
Sure, together, but as equals, everybody with it's own country and it's own decisions.
 
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Jon Neu

..he neus nothing
Jan 21, 2018
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Sorry, I hit the Post Reply button before finishing.

This shit is too long.

I don't believe we've never been united like you do but it certainly feels like we're too far apart from ever reconciling again. The fact that that makes you happy while it makes me sad says more about you than it says about me though.
Yeah, the fact that the possibility of catalans being free and equal to spaniards makes you sad, while that makes me happy, says a lot about us.
 

finowns

Member
May 10, 2009
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I don't know enough about it but I believe in self-determination so I hope it works out. And what does it matter if the people are xenophobic or nationalistic that hardly matters if, as the op describes, the vast majority wish to be independent, who is to say otherwise?

Edit - Also, when you start imprisoning your political opponents it starts to become clear who the villains are.
 
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Jon Neu

..he neus nothing
Jan 21, 2018
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I don't know enough about it but I believe in self-determination so I hope it works out. And what does it matter if the people are xenophobic or nationalistic that hardly matters if, as the op describes, the vast majority wish to be independent, who is to say otherwise?
We are not xenophobic at all, believe me. The independentist side it's actually borderline SJW for how progressive and how they like to celebrate diversity so much. It's filled with people from all backgrounds and the only side that cares about their background using it as an insult is the spanish side.

But always amazes me how the ones coming from the literal fascist/nazi alliance side are capable of calling xenophobic or even nazi to the ones that fought against them.

Apparently, wanting your right to self-determination makes you a nazi. And they now call us "lazis", which is a play on words with nazi and lazo (tie). Because to protest and in solidarity with the political prisoners, we wear yellow ties, and that somehow makes us nazis.

But who cares, we have Aragorn on our side.

 
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finowns

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We are not xenophobic at all, believe me. The independentist side it's actually borderline SJW for how progressive and how they like to celebrate diversity so much. It's filled with people from all backgrounds and the only side that cares about their background using it as an insult is the spanish side.

But always amazes me how the ones coming from the literal fascist/nazi alliance side are capable of calling xenophobic or even nazi to the ones that fought against them.

Apparently, wanting your right to self-determination makes you a nazi. And they now call us "lazis", which is a play on words with nazi and lazo (tie). Because to protest and in solidarity with the political prisoners, we wear yellow ties, and that somehow makes us nazis.

But who cares, we have Aragorn on our side.

My point was that even xenophobics have the right to do what they wish less so for the SJW's :messenger_smiling_horns:
 
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RSB

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The independentist side it's actually borderline SJW
Borderline? LOL.

Catalan independentists are exactly the same as SJW, only instead of blaming straight white men and the evil patriarchy of all your problems (real or imagined) you blame it on evil Spain.

Though that whole playing the victim strategy seems to be working pretty well for those intersectionality zealots, so keep crying in every corner of the world about how oppressed you are and it may just work. It's a pretty pathetic strategy, yeah, but if you are not willing to fight for your independence, then I guess it's your second best option.
 

MrTickles

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Feb 22, 2018
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Aragon and Castile are at it again. :messenger_smirking:

This is so easy to deal with. Fire up EU4 and free Aragon.
 

Kenpachii

Member
Mar 23, 2018
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So why are you guys not arming up massively? To project power. And investing massively into military.

If i sat there i would start talks with russia or even china and get missles in your country pointed at madrid while telling them to fuck off.

It will get the EU triggered to the end of the earth which basically makes them force spain to accept it.

Cure them with there own disease.
 
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Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Apr 9, 2009
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So why are you guys not arming up massively? To project power. And investing massively into military.

If i sat there i would start talks with russia or even china and get missles in your country pointed at madrid while telling them to fuck off.

It will get the EU triggered to the end of the earth which basically makes them force spain to accept it.

Cure them with there own disease.
Gaining independence from Spain and allying with the Russians has worked badly for Cuba and Venezuela.

Go with the Chinese.
 

Jon Neu

..he neus nothing
Jan 21, 2018
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So why are you guys not arming up massively? To project power. And investing massively into military.

If i sat there i would start talks with russia or even china and get missles in your country pointed at madrid while telling them to fuck off.

It will get the EU triggered to the end of the earth which basically makes them force spain to accept it.

Cure them with there own disease.
We can't invest in military because we don't have an army and Spain controls our money. Also we are pacifists.

But yeah, all of this has showed people (or at least me) that the so called democracies, rights and laws are just a thin veil of beautiful lies and that the world still works with the law of the strongest. The capability to inflict violence unto the others it's what really matters, sadly. That's why our government and our activists are in jail or in the exile, because Spain has people with guns and we don't, so they can do with us whatever they please and the best thing we can do is accept it while we pat ourselves on the back for being victims or run. Most catalans thought that the EU would not allow Spain to repress us, most people thought the UE was an utopia of rights, freedoms and warranties, but it's just an empty tale we like to tell ourselves. In the end, you are on your own.

Like Jordan Peterson says, in life you can be three things: Tyrant, Slave or Negotiator. We would like to be negotiators, but we are slaves at the mercy of tyrants.

And there's only two solutions possible: to wait till the tyrants become negotiators, or become a bigger tyrant yourself.
 
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RSB

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Yeah, I'm sure you would be brave enough to risk your life over it.
Maybe if I also had Gimli and Legolas on my side, but only with Aragorn? No way. Maybe I'd enlist in the keyboard warrior unit, like you, but that's about it.

Disseminating anti spanish propaganda on the internet and crying about how oppressed we are may not very epic, or effective, but at least I would enjoy the feeling of self-righteousness from the comfort of my own room.

Down with the evil patriarch... I mean, Spain!
 

petran79

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Sep 17, 2012
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I remember reading about the atrocities of the Catalan Company in the Middle Ages, but I had no idea that Catalan citizens were forbidden from visiting Mouth Athos in Greece till 2005, when Catalonia paid 240000 euro for renovation in the monasteries.

 

Jon Neu

..he neus nothing
Jan 21, 2018
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Disseminating anti spanish propaganda on the internet and crying about how oppressed we are may not very epic, or effective, but at least I would enjoy the feeling of self-righteousness from the comfort of my own room.

Down with the evil patriarch... I mean, Spain!
Yes, everything is just anti-spanish propaganda, your country is clearly doing nothing wrong.

Is just that foreigners envy you.
 

Jon Neu

..he neus nothing
Jan 21, 2018
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I remember reading about the atrocities of the Catalan Company in the Middle Ages, but I had no idea that Catalan citizens were forbidden from visiting Mouth Athos in Greece till 2005, when Catalonia paid 240000 euro for renovation in the monasteries.

Yeah, Almogavers were brutal, especially when they were betrayed and almost assassinated.

It’s funny to see how much has catalan society changed.
 

Mihos

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I still don't know how Spain is actually oppressing you, but that second picture reminds me of this tequila bottle and that makes me happy

 

Boss Mog

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Dec 12, 2013
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Don't worry too much OP, soon Spain, Catalonia and Basque Country will all be on the same page and completely united under islam.
 
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