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The spanish persecution of Catalonia

Jon Neu

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Jan 21, 2018
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Republic of Catalonia


Don't worry too much OP, soon Spain, Catalonia and Basque Country will all be on the same page and completely united under islam.
That's like getting free from jail and then become paraplegic in a car accident crossing the road.

I still don't know how Spain is actually oppressing you
I don't know how to start, I could literally write a book about it.

But I don't have the time, neither the will, so I will just put this tiny nugget of it.



"Coincidences".

OP are you defending Puigdemont?
Defending him means he is suspicious of have done something wrong.

So no, I'm not defending him.
 
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infinitys_7th

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Maybe if I also had Gimli and Legolas on my side, but only with Aragorn? No way. Maybe I'd enlist in the keyboard warrior unit, like you, but that's about it.

Disseminating anti spanish propaganda on the internet and crying about how oppressed we are may not very epic, or effective, but at least I would enjoy the feeling of self-righteousness from the comfort of my own room.

Down with the evil patriarch... I mean, Spain!
My question to you - what is the benefit to Spain to control a large group of people who clearly do not want to be Spanish, particularly when they do not want to control those who are Spanish?

I have never seen the big deal with letting separatist groups separate. It seems like everything just becomes more peaceful when people can choose their own way.
 

RSB

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My question to you - what is the benefit to Spain to control a large group of people who clearly do not want to be Spanish, particularly when they do not want to control those who are Spanish?
LOL, I wish. One thing catalan nationalists always omit when doing their whole "we are poor oppressed victims" schtick, is that many of them also want to annex Valencia (where I live) the Balearic Islands, part of Aragon, Andorra, and even some french territories. Els Països Catalans (the Catalan Countries) as they like to call it.

For example, every year we have to endure catalan nationalists coming to Valencia during the 9 d'Octubre celebrations (it's basically the day of Valencia) to do a parade where they basically tell us that we are not actually valencians, but southern catalans, which is quite offensive to most valencians, of course. Thankfully, there's only a few pan-catalanists in Valencia, although catalan nationalists have been trying their hardest to spread their bullshit ideology for decades.

So yeah, can't wait for Catalonia to go all Anschluss on us if they ever get their Independence.
 

infinitys_7th

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LOL, I wish. One thing catalan nationalists always omit when doing their whole "we are poor oppressed victims" schtick, is that many of them also want to annex Valencia (where I live) the Balearic Islands, part of Aragon, Andorra, and even some french territories. Els Països Catalans (the Catalan Countries) as they like to call it.

For example, every year we have to endure catalan nationalists coming to Valencia during the 9 d'Octubre celebrations (it's basically the day of Valencia) to do a parade where they basically tell us that we are not actually valencians, but southern catalans, which is quite offensive to most valencians, of course. Thankfully, there's only a few pan-catalanists in Valencia, although catalan nationalists have been trying their hardest to spread their bullshit ideology for decades.

So yeah, can't wait for Catalonia to go all Anschluss on us if they ever get their Independence.
Why not try to break off as Valencians then?

And yes, I'm an American, and I would be more than happy to see the US broken up into smaller countries.
 

RSB

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Why not try to break off as Valencians then?
Why would we? The vast majority of people in Valencia are perfectly fine being valencian, AND spanish.

Also, it's not like Spain is forcing us to stay. If anyone in Valencia doesn't want to be in Spain they can always leave (and when I say leave, I mean literally leave, not steal territory from Spain to form a new country)
 
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Jon Neu

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LOL, I wish. One thing catalan nationalists always omit when doing their whole "we are poor oppressed victims" schtick, is that many of them also want to annex Valencia (where I live) the Balearic Islands, part of Aragon, Andorra, and even some french territories. Els Països Catalans (the Catalan Countries) as they like to call it.
Hahahahaha

Països Catalans is just an historical cultural and linguistical concept, like iberoamerica or latinamerica. Is Spain trying to annex Argentina, Mexico, Colombia, etc? I mean, they tried to do so in the past, but I don't think they are trying now when they talk about iberoamerica and do conferences and stuff.

And the funny thing is that there is far more people from Valencia or the Balearic Islands hoping for a "Catalan Countries" as a big state, that there is in Catalonia.

Believe me, almost nobody here wants to make that as a state. Is just an historical, cultural and linguistical reference, we didn't and we haven't never declared the Països Catalans state, we declared the Republic Of Catalonia. But as with everything spanish nationalists do, you try to incite hate for the evil catalan nationalists (the word nationalist has been demonized so much by the spanish media and politicians is not even funny, without they wanting to admit that they are by far the biggest nationalists, ironically).

So you can sleep tight at night, the big bad catalan isn't coming to get you, despite what your media and politicians try to make you believe.
 

RSB

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I have a lot of respect for my catalan sister and cousins. Having to live and interact with the crazies every day must be truly exhausting. Thanfully, they managed to resist the constant indoctrination, and didn't become part of the cult.



It's not too bad though. As long as you don't publicly speak against catalan independence they don't harass you too much.
 
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Oppression? Repression?

If by oppression or repression you, OP, refer to the Spain-Catalonia conflict, then you clearly don't know shit about oppression or repression.

You live in a city, a state, where you can do whatever you want to while it is allowed by the law, you have lots of rights and obligations as a spanish citizen, but fortunately you live in one of the most democratic countries in the worls. Also you live in one of the wealthies cities/states in Europe, otherwise, imo, independence wouldn't be asked for. Actually catalan politicians have been taking advantage of this situation so much that the took lots of amounts of money from the spanish goverment because of this false claim of independance for decades, not to mention Catalonia, Barcelona specially, has developed from what it was four decades ago to nowdays because of the spanish government has invested in.

Stop lying, there is no reppression, oppression, or whatever close to that. Please, do not deligimitize the meaning of reppression or oppression with the current situation in Catalonia.

Any outsider visiting Barcelona wouldn't notice any kind or form of oppression or repression from the spanish governemnt, not a single person from other countries/cities would notice any sign of those terms. Fortunately Spain is a developed country, with its own problems as every country, from all fronts: laws, economics, social, etc. So please, stop using incorrect terms/words for.


As for Puigdemont, well, it's on him, he could just face this situation, come to Spain, get judged, and I am completely sure he would be released with no charges, because all of this is just a performance from both sided, because both of them are distracting spanish citizens from the real problems.

Honestly, as a spaniard I respect flags, but this is getting out of hands. Since the Octobrer 1st I am noticing lots of flags hanging from the neighbors balconies from both sides (in Barcelona, Tarragona, and the rest of spanish cities), while they didn't use to do this back then. And while I approve the right and freedom of expression, it is curious to see none of them did this before.

tldr, please, do not confuse foreigners and outsiders with terms that do not describe or fit in the current situation.
 
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Jon Neu

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Oppression? Repression?

If by oppression or repression you, OP, refer to the Spain-Catalonia conflict, then you clearly don't know shit about oppression or repression.
Well, it's always spanish nationalists saying there isn't oppression and repression. Meanwhile, even the UN is saying there is.

And by the way, you don't need to be oppressed at the level of let's say: Palestine, to be oppressed. Catalonia and catalan citizens are absolutely oppressed in so many ways it's not even funny. The fact that you and the likes of you defend the spanish police coming to Catalonia to beat people for trying to vote, already points out the putrid state of relationships between Catalonia and Spain from all aspects, not only politically, but spanish society is also very rotten too.

Actually catalan politicians have been taking advantage of this situation so much that the took lots of amounts of money from the spanish goverment because of this false claim of independance for decades, not to mention Catalonia, Barcelona specially, has developed from what it was four decades ago to nowdays because of the spanish government has invested in.
4 decades ago? Maybe you should look at that entire era in time as a whole instead of taking just the part that suits you, maybe you should be aware of when Fascist Spain and it's allies, Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany bombed Catalonia to oblivion.

Thank you so much for that. I guess we can't count that as oppressed either.

By the way, the colonialist fake government the spanish state installed in the Generalitat (but remember, we aren't oppressed in any way) recognized what catalanists have been saying since years ago: Catalonia loses 16.000 million of euros every year at the hands of Spain. Spain is milking dry Catalonia.

Any outsider visiting Barcelona wouldn't notice any kind or form of oppression or repression from the spanish governemnt, not a single person from other countries/cities would notice any sign of those terms.
Well, depends of what day he comes here. If he came the 1 of October, I'm sure he would be pretty aware of the oppression the catalan people suffer.

But yeah, most of the oppression is not visible for an outsider, because it's political oppression. Most outsiders obviously can't know about the people that are unjustly put in jail of Catalonia or the Basque Country, tourists are untouched and society at large is untouched by it.

As for Puigdemont, well, it's on him, he could just face this situation, come to Spain, get judged, and I am completely sure he would be released with no charges, because all of this is just a performance from both sided, because both of them are distracting spanish citizens from the real problems.
Wow, your level of delusion is astonishing. "Released with no charges", all while there is people who are currently in jail for more than a year and a half and that are facing 20 or 30 years sentences from obviously corrupt judges, but somehow Puigdemont will come out with no charges.

I can see how you are incapable of seeing any oppression.
 

Tapioca

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It'd be like Minnesotans declaring they aren't American because they speak with an accent.
 

Tapioca

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2/10.

You can do better.

Like Catalonia.
Catalonians don't have an argument. It is pretty apparent within this whole thread you've yet to give a real reason why Catalonia should not be apart of Spain. Catalans live in some sort of bizarre reality where they perceive themselves to be completely different from all the other people in Spain. "We have a different culture"....is not an argument for secession. And the culture is largely just Spanish culture. Each region of the USA has a different "culture", no one over here is succeeding.. Not an argument. New York and California pays much more into the federal pool than most other states, they aren't succeeding.

Catalonians have special snowflake syndrome. You're just a boring ass Spanish person with an accent. You're no different than a Minnesotan is to the rest of America. Get over it.
 
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Jon Neu

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I believe you.

Catalonians don't have an argument. It is pretty apparent within this whole thread you've yet to give a real reason why Catalonia should not be apart of Spain. Catalans live in some sort of bizarre reality where they perceive themselves to be completely different from all the other people in Spain. "We have a different culture"....is not an argument for secession. And the culture is largely just Spanish culture. Each region of the USA has a different "culture", no one over here is succeeding.. Not an argument.

Catalonians have special snowflake syndrome. You're just a boring ass Spanish person with an accent. You're no different than a Minnesotan is to the rest of America. Get over it.
Sorry you are too dense to pick up the analogy. I'm going to explain it to you.

You are a brit, a brit that took a boat and went to America, and then decided he wasn't a brit anymore and started to call yourself "american". The fact that you are trying to make a joke of Catalonia trying to be independent because they are "too similar" to Spain, when you are in fact a brit that someday decided he wasn't a brit anymore, makes you and your "argument" the bigger joke here.

Catalonia is a nation with more than a thousand years of history, with it's own language, culture and national identity. I'm not very versed in Minnesotan history, but I don't think it's quite the same. Feel free to educate me on Minnesotan history, though.

I'm sorry you are as simple minded as you are, but no, catalans are not spaniards with an accent.
 
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Tapioca

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I believe you.

Sorry you are too dense to pick up the analogy. I'm going to explain it to you.

You are a brit, a brit that took a boat and went to America, and then decided he wasn't a brit anymore and started to call yourself "american". The fact that you are trying to make a joke of Catalonia trying to be independent because they are "too similar" to Spain, when you are in fact a brit that someday decided he wasn't a brit anymore, makes you and your "argument" the bigger joke here.

Catalonia is a nation with more than a thousand years of history, with it's own language, culture and national identity. I'm not very versed in Minnesotan history, but I don't think it's quite the same. Feel free to educate me on Minnesotan history.

I'm sorry you are as simple minded as you are, but no, catalans are not spaniards with an accent.
I don't identify with the Americans that overthrew the British government because I was not alive during that time.
However, those Americans had REAL political reasons to leave. Their reasons were not " I feel like I have a different culture, even though it is extremely similar to Spanish culture. We look the same to most other indigenous Spaniards, but we pretend like we aren't like those people". It Is some weird form of same race "racism". The whole argument is centered around "culture". A cultural argument would only start to be valid if the culture was actually somewhat dissimilar or incompatible with Spanish culture. I guess when there are no real differences, people start to pretend there are.

Minnesotan history is a bunch or Norwegian and Sweden people went there and settled. Minnesotans have a strong regional accent. Americans view every state as equally being part of America, even if one state pays more to the federal government. I guess Spain failed miserably at creating any sort of national identity.
 
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Jon Neu

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I don't identify with the Americans that overthrew the British government because I was not alive during that time.
Doesn't matter how you identify yourself, it's history and the perfect analogy to showcase both your hipocrisy & ignorance.

However, those Americans had REAL political reasons to leave.
Yeah, the "real" political reasons of "we want to be independent for some reason that I see as real because it's my country and I'm biased as fuck".

Stop embarassing yourself, your brit ancestors didn't had more reasons to be independent than catalans. They actually had less.

" I feel like I have a different culture, even though it is extremely similar to Spanish culture. We look the same to most other indigenous Spaniards, but we pretend like we aren't like those people".
Funny you talk about looking and being similar, when again, your brit ancestors were exactly the same. Not even similar, the exact fucking same people.

But they had "political" reasons, of course. Whatever justifies your blatant hipocrisy.

By the way, Catalonia existed before Spain, existed without Spain and even Spain has acknowledged that we are different. But sure, we are the same to the ignorant and simple minded.

And mexicans and spaniards are the same, therefore catalans are the same as mexicans, amirite?

I guess Spain failed miserably at creating any sort of national identity.
The problem of Spain is trying to dissolve other national identities to superpose their national identity and then acting surprised and enraged when people want to be their own nationality and not spaniards.

I mean, half of the world has become independent from Spain, maybe they should start to be a little bit self-aware by now.

 
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RSB

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The problem of Spain is trying to dissolve other national identities to superpose their national identity and then acting surprised and enraged when people want to be their own nationality and not spaniards.
Trying to dissolve other national identities? LOL. In fantasy land, maybe. In reality, Catalonia and Euskadi have been given by far the most priviliges compared to other regions of Spain (highest level of autonomy, more money invested on infrastructure, industry, etc)

Making so many concessions to the nationalists has backfired hard though, because no matter how much you give them, they always want more. Giving them complete control of the education system and the media has resulted in entire generations of people indoctrinated to hate Spain. If you want to see what trying to dissolve a national identity actually looks like you just have look at Catalonia and Euskadi and the perils faced by people who dare publicly show their spanish identity.

Oh well, at least you catalan independentists haven't killed over 800 innocent people on your fight against evil Spain, like ETA (well, Terra Lliure did several terrorist attacks, but that was decades ago, and while many people were injured, only a few were killed) I mean, catalans that publicly oppose independence do have to deal with a bit of harassement here and there, but for the most part you guys seem content just doing the whole "Spain is so evil, we are so oppressed" farce (for now at least) so I guess that's cool.
 
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finowns

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What is the percentage of Catalonians that wish to have an independent state?
 

finowns

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It'd be like Minnesotans declaring they aren't American because they speak with an accent.
This is a bad comparison. For example, Minnesota doesn't have it's own language, Minnesota doesn't have as much history and isn't nearly as old.
 
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Tapioca

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Engage in good faith or leave the thread.
Doesn't matter how you identify yourself, it's history and the perfect analogy to showcase both your hipocrisy & ignorance.



Yeah, the "real" political reasons of "we want to be independent for some reason that I see as real because it's my country and I'm biased as fuck".

Stop embarassing yourself, your brit ancestors didn't had more reasons to be independent than catalans. They actually had less.



Funny you talk about looking and being similar, when again, your brit ancestors were exactly the same. Not even similar, the exact fucking same people.

But they had "political" reasons, of course. Whatever justifies your blatant hipocrisy.

By the way, Catalonia existed before Spain, existed without Spain and even Spain has acknowledged that we are different. But sure, we are the same to the ignorant and simple minded.

And mexicans and spaniards are the same, therefore catalans are the same as mexicans, amirite?



The problem of Spain is trying to dissolve other national identities to superpose their national identity and then acting surprised and enraged when people want to be their own nationality and not spaniards.

I mean, half of the world has become independent from Spain, maybe they should start to be a little bit self-aware by now.
You're brainwashed. This is like trying to argue with a white nationalist or black separatist. They have no other argument other than "my culture" and so do you.

You're Spanish and Spain is in no way oppressing you. You might want to care about more important things.

Whatever mod that is claiming that I am not arguing in good faith is ridiculous. The OP's mindset is the exact same as a racial separatist.
 
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Tapioca

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This is a bad comparison. For example, Minnesota doesn't have it's own language, Minnesota doesn't have as much history and isn't nearly as old.
The whole point was that Catalonia is one of many states that make up Spain. They think they are special for some reason because they have an accent.
 

finowns

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You're brainwashed. This is like trying to argue with a white nationalist or black separatist. They have no other argument other than "my culture" and so do you.

You're Spanish and Spain is in no way oppressing you. You might want to care about more important things.
It's not necessary to be 'oppressed' to wish for separation. If the desire is there it's up to the people to decide.

The whole point was that Catalonia is one of many states that make up Spain. They think they are special for some reason because they have an accent.
They have an accent speaking their own language?
 
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Tapioca

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It's not necessary to be 'oppressed' to wish for separation. If the desire is there it's up to the people to decide.



They have an accent speaking their own language?
They have an accent when speaking Spanish. They are a state within Spain.
 

Tapioca

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Again comparing this to Minnesota doesn't make sense.
It wasn't supposed to be a 1 on 1 comparison. And it makes sense as both are states within an established country. Neither have a good argument to leave their country.
 
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Jon Neu

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Trying to dissolve other national identities?
Yes, it starts by taking away their power to choose.

Making so many concessions to the nationalists has backfired hard though, because no matter how much you give them, they always want more. Giving them complete control of the education system and the media has resulted in entire generations of people indoctrinated to hate Spain.
This is funny coming from a Spaniard, the state in which you have the entire media adoctrinating people against catalans and clamoring for the holy union of Spain.

You even believe that people here that defined themselves as spaniards have any type of problem, which is obviously an enormous lie propagated by the media you consume. Half the people I know identify themselves as spaniards and have never encountered a problem because of it. Obviously there is a difference between the ultra spanish nationalist from VOX, Falange or C's who love to be confrontational and other people that feel spaniard but are not that nationalistic, neither antagonistic of Catalonia's rights. Living here makes people have a certain understanding that "normal" spaniards lack.

But watching Antena 3, Telecinco, TVE1, El Mundo, El Pais, La Razon, Intereconomia and so on it's what "adoctrinates" catalans into wanting to leave Spain. The horrible mediatic pressure we have to suffer every fucking day of the year is astonishing.

The catalan television, by the way, it's by far the most objective and plural television of the spanish state, according to international observers.



When it comes to talking about Catalonia, spanish televisions are basically filled with monologues of spanish nationalists giving themselves a pat in the back about how great Spain is and how bad catalans and independentists are, while catalan media always tries to represent the plurality of opinions and even plays devil's advocate a lot of times.

What is the percentage of Catalonians that wish to have an independent state?
More or less 50%.

We will never know for sure till Spain accepts a referendum like in Scotland.
 
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RokkanStoned

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The whole Spain and Catalonia deal is very interesting, even though it's not my subject. An Associate Professor at my university is very knowledgeable about it, as Spanish politics is his subject and he often is in newspapers whenever there's talk about politics in Spain.

The national rising in a people is always something I'm sympathetic to, even though obvious realities makes the majority nation not accept secession out of power, out of perceived sovereignty, out of economical and geographical interests. Europe is quite a diverse place, with lots of peoples that lost to the power of the majority power. Just look at Nordic countries, whereupon you've had large parts of the north having been mostly Sámi people and other small nations or ethnic groups. Denmark-Norway and Norway of course dealt with them by first making them Christian and destroying their religion, then in the 18-20th century it was about destroying their language and culture and self-identity, lots of social darwinism, eugenics. That's what was called the Norwegianization of the Sámi. It continued until the 1970s/80s when a massive protest around the construction of a hydroelectric plant in Alta and its effect on the reindeer herding Sámi lead to a revitalization of ethnic minorities like the Sámi and the Kven (a finnish ethnic minority group in Norway).
Previously the Sämi people you had to pay taxes and due to how they were more a nomadic people, they obviously didn't have much of organization to prevent kings of greater nations to exert power over them. And since they covered an area that spanned Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia, one can imagine further the difficulty.

That said, majority groups will rarely let go off the resources and sovereignty, so usually it means either civil war or secession without a war if majority country can't or won't go to war. One possibility is to use the plight of the minority groups and appeal to self-determination and sympathy in order to get support and do it through the majority power. Then even people who by political believes should support them usually show their true faces, either as just only power interested or surprisingly nationalist, which can often end up intensifying the conflict.
I think the best way is to gather sympathy though and get pressure from the EU. Though will be hard as a lot of countries have their own ethnic minority groups, meaning you'll often find those countries going against you, as they also care about their own power and sovereignty, even if they throw out empty platitudes about how important taking care of minorities are.
 
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Whataburger

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This is a bad comparison. For example, Minnesota doesn't have it's own language, Minnesota doesn't have as much history and isn't nearly as old.
People in Minnesota are different from the rest of us though.