The superiority of Capitalism, the moral superiority of Capitalism

autoduelist

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I use a landscaping company example:

Imagine a neighborhood full of yards. One enterprising young lad starts a lawn mowing business, and does so well he eventually needs to hire other kids to mow lawns. He does so well that he contracts with nearly all house owners in the neighborhood, and has 10 kids working for him. He charges, say, $20 a lawn and pays $10.

When I was younger, something about this really bothered me. I'm a hard worker, I thought, but this jerk has monopolized the entire market. I can't get a job cutting lawns without going through him, and he takes half the money I would earn. It felt almost fair if everybody just earned money for the lawns they mowed, and it felt unfair the first lad could buy a car off other people's work.

I can't explain quite how this made me feel. It made me unhappy with capitalism, though i wasn't a socialist nor [puke] a communist. I just wanted everyone who put in 100% to get paid 100%. It left me unhappy with capitalism, yet unsure of a better answer.

It took me years to put together what i was missing, and those years were spent experiencing and, well, working. And what i realized is many fold:

1] that kid created those jobs. Many of those homes were being mowed by the home owner, and that lad needed to go door to door, and land those sales. He needed to convince them his team could do better, and that his price was reasonable. He needed to find people he could trust to do quality work. He needed to pay for mowers, maintenance, gas, etc.

2] if that kid did not create those jobs, most of those other kids would have not suddenly decided to start mowing lawns. Just like the lad created the need for the job from landowners, he sold the jobs to other kids for a price they agreed to. They would not be working, but instead fishing or riding their bikes or watching tv. Most people have no interest in going out and creating their own job out of thin air.

3] that rare kid who would have been out there grinding still has opportunity. He can compete directly, by doing an even better job on his yard and selling his work at a slightly lower cost, eventually cutting into the market. He can create another business, or an ancillary business like mower repair. It is not zero sum, and he's not locked out simply because he wasn't there first. It may not be easy, but nobody ever promised easy.

4] liberty requires that two individuals be able to make an agreement they find fair. That includes the business and the customer, and that also includes the business and the employee. The more third parties [aka govt] try to intervene, the more liberty is lost. If i am willing to cut a lawn for $10, but the govt insists i am paid $15, which the company can't afford, we are all hurt - employee, company, customer. That entrepreneurial kid knows more about his business, his customer's needs, and his employees than a bureaucrat 3000 miles away.

I will never be 100% happy with capitalism, because of course it disenfranchises some. But that is the natural form of merit. There will always be those who are better at something, or work harder, or both. And they deserve more than those who don't. And some with merit will simply fall through the cracks, simply due to bad luck. But all alternatives seem far far worse... so much worse, in fact, as to approach truly evil. Capitalism is flawed, but socialism and communism are authoritarian nightmares almost by design, because they seek to remove merit from the calculation. If your system requires a thumb on the scale from the very get go, that thumb will grow very heavy indeed.

[This is mostly a riff on D'Souza's bit above. I reach the same conclusions he does, but took a very different path in my own way. When i was younger, i wanted someone like him to be wrong,i wanted everyone to be 'equal', just that some of us were held back in various ways. It's become quite clear to me over the years that merit, drive, ambition, and elbow grease all exist, and are not equally distributed. Forcing redistribution is inherently anti-liberty.]
 
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CeroFrio996

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autoduelist autoduelist just as you were missing something before you are missing something now, because what America has become is not that idealized system that you envision. It's become a place were popular upstarts are bullied until they have no choice but sell out or go under. It's a system that's been bought and sold with cash instead of integrity and honesty. Hard workers dont win, and neither do smart business men. The winners in modern day America wrote the rules and pulled the favors so they could do whatever they wanted without recompense. This is what happens when Capitalism goes unchecked. It's still a idea with merit, but its been stolen from the people who would sell you a good product, rather than a lie dressed up in wrapping paper.
 
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EviLore

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autoduelist autoduelist just as you were missing something before you are missing something now, because what America has become is not that idealized system that you envision. It's become a place were popular upstarts are bullied until they have no choice but sell out or go under. It's a system that's been bought and sold with cash instead of integrity and honesty. Hard workers dont win, and neither do smart business men. The winners in modern day America wrote the rules and pulled the favors so they could do whatever they wanted without recompense. This is what happens when Capitalism goes unchecked. It's still a idea with merit, but its been stolen from the people who would sell you a good product, rather than a lie dressed up in wrapping paper.
Great excuse to never apply yourself.
 
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autoduelist autoduelist just as you were missing something before you are missing something now, because what America has become is not that idealized system that you envision. It's become a place were popular upstarts are bullied until they have no choice but sell out or go under. It's a system that's been bought and sold with cash instead of integrity and honesty. Hard workers dont win, and neither do smart business men. The winners in modern day America wrote the rules and pulled the favors so they could do whatever they wanted without recompense. This is what happens when Capitalism goes unchecked. It's still a idea with merit, but its been stolen from the people who would sell you a good product, rather than a lie dressed up in wrapping paper.
I grew up in a trailer in one of the poorest areas of Kentucky. Only reason I got to go to college was on a sports scholarship. 13 years later I own a business on track to have its best year ever with over 20 employees. Hard work pays off if you make the right moves and put in the work.
 

Mihos

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autoduelist autoduelist just as you were missing something before you are missing something now, because what America has become is not that idealized system that you envision. It's become a place were popular upstarts are bullied until they have no choice but sell out or go under. It's a system that's been bought and sold with cash instead of integrity and honesty. Hard workers dont win, and neither do smart business men. The winners in modern day America wrote the rules and pulled the favors so they could do whatever they wanted without recompense. This is what happens when Capitalism goes unchecked. It's still a idea with merit, but its been stolen from the people who would sell you a good product, rather than a lie dressed up in wrapping paper.

This has not been my experience at all.
 
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KINGMOKU

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The United States form of government is absolutely the best this planet has ever seen and its indisputable. Capitalism is an integral part of our rise, and continuing success.

Our rise to power, and untold wealth, peace, education, charity, famine ending, and cooperation we have brought to the world is unparalleled in human history.

This cannot be debated.

Other forms of government pale in comparison especially socialism, and communism. You cannot get the advances in medicine, computing, agriculture, you name it without a free market, and those who strive to better themselves, and earn.

The worlds current problems are an insignificant price to pay for it. Compared to other times in human history, or even current other parts of the world, this truly is Shangri-La and those who would wish to change it our enemies of freedom, potential, advancements in every single form of anything, and hope.

Can we one day do away with capitalism? Absolutely. When replicators and free energy come on line, that time will become possible. We as a human civilization are not there yet, and if we want to get to that point where we all just work to better ourselves, capitalism is absolutely the only way forward as it brings advancements at a record pace.

You don't upend the apple cart if you find a few worms.
 

dionysus

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autoduelist autoduelist , you are wrong. The young you was correct, because you had feelings of unfairness and you wanted to change the world. That is all that matters, your feelings. It is not the practicality and efficacy of the economic system that matters, but how much it makes you feel noble when you talk about. How much does it prove to the twitter crowd that you are a good person. It doesn't matter, for example, that the Green New Deal, implemented in its entirety with no compromises, would lead to starvation of half the globe and reduction of the standard of living for the remaining population to the pre-industrial era. It doesn't matter that it is the child of Mao's Great Leap Forward which killed 50 million people, with a modern environmental twist. It doesn't matter that it brings back some of the worst elements of serfdom, including banning the freedom to choose certain professions, the freedom to dispose of your property how you want to, and travel restrictions. They claim to be saving the world and also lift up marginalized groups, so it is good and right and they should be praised for it.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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I'm a pragmatist. I don't believe any form of government is inherently good nor do I believe government is the main vehicle to do good in the world. Yet, capitalism is the best out of our current options because it does the best job of acknowledging human nature. Maybe when humanity finally sears away all those icky impulses and desires we can move to a socialist system, but until then I wish to freely associate with those whom I choose and to disassociate with people who might do me harm. A socialist system completely eliminates that freedom, by design.

We have thorough documentation of the attempts at socialism over the past 150 years. I'm open to someone trying "real socialism" if they can at least acknowledge its shortfalls and explain how they will avoid those same shortfalls. Instead, socialists tend to shriek or play word-games with you. Not convincing.
 
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CeroFrio996

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Great excuse to never apply yourself.
I grew up in a trailer in one of the poorest areas of Kentucky. Only reason I got to go to college was on a sports scholarship. 13 years later I own a business on track to have its best year ever with over 20 employees. Hard work pays off if you make the right moves and put in the work.
This has not been my experience at all.
It's amazing how lived experience is suddenly all the rage when it supports your world view.
 
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autoduelist

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autoduelist autoduelist just as you were missing something before you are missing something now, because what America has become is not that idealized system that you envision. It's become a place were popular upstarts are bullied until they have no choice but sell out or go under. It's a system that's been bought and sold with cash instead of integrity and honesty. Hard workers dont win, and neither do smart business men. The winners in modern day America wrote the rules and pulled the favors so they could do whatever they wanted without recompense. This is what happens when Capitalism goes unchecked. It's still a idea with merit, but its been stolen from the people who would sell you a good product, rather than a lie dressed up in wrapping paper.
I would argue you are conflating capitalism with cronyism and corporatism, both of which can infect any economic system.

I would rather have 10 or 1000 companies competing in a market. Good ideas succeed, bad ideas fail. If a company turns to corrupt practices, the market can correct in various ways. For example, if nepotism leads to bad leadership, a company with better leadership will win out. If racism leads to bad hiring practices, a company which hires based only on merit has a greater pool of talent. If a company goes foul of the public good in a meaningful way, sales go south.

If we hand over control to the state, we lose this diversity of ideas. As the state corrupts, so does all of industry. This is why I also support a plurality of governments [200 countries, like have now] over globalist organizations... i know we fail, and i want diversification so that when Germany [or Exxon] goes bad, other states/companies exist to set them straight.

As for 'unchecked' capitalism, I would argue we 'check' it too much in many ways. We too often cripple its ability to self heal. For example, in creating many regulations, we often cede power to a corrupt state who allow corrupt lobbyists to write corrupt policy that effectively legalizes corrupt behavior. That is not capitalism.

And of course, no system can be perfect. Humans are far from perfect. But capitalism not only puts freedom and liberty first, rather than an all powerful state, but has given us such luxury we can't even comprehend how rough our ancestors had it. Many now believe the natural state of people is luxury... to the point that some say healthcare, food, and housing are 'rights'. No. They are hard fought privileges, built upon the hard work of generations, brought to us by competition. Yes, some get left behind, some get forgotten. But less, and less, and less.
 

Davey

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We have thorough documentation of the attempts at socialism over the past 150 years. I'm open to someone trying "real socialism" if they can at least acknowledge its shortfalls and explain how they will avoid those same shortfalls. Instead, socialists tend to shriek or play word-games with you. Not convincing.
Let's say there's someone that knows and is able to do "real socialism" (lmao) and is left from all human emotions that would make him/her push tyranny and power hunger... Considering the record we've had with all previous socialist and that that one person is only the exception, how could we deal when he/she leaves government?

It's too risky, socialism is just a way to remove people from getting a quota of power so regime gets all (always "in the name of common welth"), they don't like sharing power and economy gives people some amount of it, they hate it because they want to be the only rulers and they wouldn't be so if some rando grows economically so much it gets out of their control and can't buy it... This may sound "comic book villain"-like but I cannot see anything else after all these years, with castro and co. fucking around the continent...
 
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Zefah

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It's amazing how lived experience is suddenly all the rage when it supports your world view.
That doesn't even make sense. They are talking about their own personal experiences. Supposedly objective facts about their economic situations throughout life. It's not about believing how someone else feels or felt as the result of X or Y and taking that as an objective truth.
 
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Vicetrailia

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Capitalism is the best system that we know of.

Even in the US with the corpatism, cronyism, and classism, there's no denying how basic capitalism transformed the world for the better.

The left focuses on the pitfalls of our current system, and there's something to that, but overall we still have a great system despite that.
 
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matt404au

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It's amazing how lived experience is suddenly all the rage when it supports your world view.
No, dummy. He’s saying that his own achievements demonstrate that your woe is me approach to life is a personal issue, not an American issue. He’s not using so-called lived experience to define some kind of subjective personal truth and tinker with reality itself.
 
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pennythots

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I've always hated arguments surrounding capitalism and socialism in a vacuum. The barrier-to-entry is far too high and the majority of the biggest economies are mixed anyways.

A lot of policies I want implemented could be called socialism and in trying to defend that term itself I would discredit the merit of those policies. Universal healthcare, policies that embolden and protect the middle class and/or family unit, drug reform, prison reform, taking money out of politics, downsizing the military, etc., Even if by some technical definition they could fit under a socialist framework I think it's a wasted effort to argue for socialism specifically. No politician is ever going to become elected and just declare America a socialist nation. I'd rather people, on their own, come to share the same ideals and values I hold and that's precisely what I expect to happen during my lifetime. American voters will change our healthcare system, not under the name of socialism, but because of the merit of particular policies itself and this will all be done under a democratic process. There is no value in the word socialism itself, other than to be provocative. It's where I think Bernie falters in that he gets caught up in defending socialism itself (re: Venezuela) rather than simply pointing to policy.
 

CeroFrio996

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No, dummy. He’s saying that his own achievements demonstrate that your woe is me approach to life is a personal issue, not an American issue. He’s not using so-called lived experience to define some kind of subjective personal truth and tinker with reality itself.
Lol, a handful of people's personal achievements dont demonstrate squat and also assume I have a "woe is me" attitude. I'm not sitting on my ass crying about how unfair it all is. Im going to tech school to become an electrician while working 60+ hours a week. Im having my first child in november. But I guess I'm just not enough of a "go getter".

Sure is fun to assume you know what's going on in the head of someone you've never met, and to act as though your own personal success is proof of the laziness of all those less fortunate than you.
 
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matt404au

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Lol, a handful of people's personal achievements dont demonstrate squat and also assume I have a "woe is me" attitude. I'm not sitting on my ass crying about how unfair it all is. Im going to tech school to become an electrician while working 60+ hours a week. Im having my first child in november. But I guess I'm just not enough of a "go getter".

Sure is fun to assume you know what's going on in the head of someone you've never met, and to act as though your own personal success is proof of the laziness of all those less fortunate than you.
Yes you are.

I don’t have to be in your head. Your words tell me what you’re thinking. That’s what words are for.

You’re also making mighty leaps in logic to think that saying that hard work and good decisions can lead to success means that every unsuccessful person is a lazy parasite. Moreover, believing that unsuccessful == unfortunate robs people of agency.
 
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rorepmE

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Lol, a handful of people's personal achievements dont demonstrate squat and also assume I have a "woe is me" attitude. I'm not sitting on my ass crying about how unfair it all is. Im going to tech school to become an electrician while working 60+ hours a week. Im having my first child in november. But I guess I'm just not enough of a "go getter".

Sure is fun to assume you know what's going on in the head of someone you've never met, and to act as though your own personal success is proof of the laziness of all those less fortunate than you.
Maybe you're not lazy, but you're definitely not smart. Don't make it easier on yourself by finishing trade school and becoming an electrician first before having another mouth to feed and cloths.

It's not capitalism's fault your so leveraged in life.


Your argument is essentially “hard work inherently goes unrewarded in the current system”.

The fact that other people have had their hard work rewarded in the current system means that your argument is wrong.
Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord was a German general who divided his officers into four groups:

"I divide my officers into four groups.

There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined.

Some are clever and diligent -- their place is the General Staff.
The next lot are stupid and lazy -- they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties.
Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions.
One must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent -- he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief."


go-getter attitude + making the wrong decisions = capitalism's fault.
 
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desertdroog

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You can avoid poverty by:

1. Graduating from high school.

2. Waiting to get married until after 21 and do not have children till after being married.

3. Having a full-time job.
 

desertdroog

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I would put a job before marriage.
Agree, not sure the order matters as much as the benchmarks are hit at a minimum. Assumed that you are able to graduate before hitting 21, and are getting a full time job before 21 if you have graduated high school and not couch surfing.
 
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autoduelist

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It's amazing how lived experience is suddenly all the rage when it supports your world view.
This wasn't to me, but I can't turn down biting into juicy apple.

Nobody is claiming lived experience isn't valuable. We've been learning from our elders since time memorial. But here's the thing: we don't base the truth or value of your 'lived experience' on your race, religion, gender, or sexuality.

Your ideas are not equal, let alone superior, simply because you are a proud, black, gay, women. They might be valuable, sure, but not because of your checkbox points.

Your ideas, and your lived experience, is valuable only as much as what it can teach us. We learn from someone respected and successful how to live our life in a better way, which is part of why the modern era has failed us because too many look up to the latest icon of ethical disasters rather than astronauts, firemen, and doctors. Likewise, we learn from the drunk on the corner to not drink to excess, and to keep our ducks in a row. May his wasted 'lived experience' teach us all... but it doesn't mean anything he might tell us is worth a damn.

'Lived experience', like everything else, is based on merit. Chose the right role models in life, and excel. But putting stock into someone's ideas simply because they're 'diverse' is woke idiocy. So yea, 'lived experience' is "all the rage", and always has been. Just choose wisely, and learn not just what to listen to, but what to shun.
 
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matt404au

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This wasn't to me, but I can't turn down biting into juicy apple.

Nobody is claiming lived experience isn't valuable. We've been learning from our elders since time memorial. But here's the thing: we don't base the truth or value of your 'lived experience' on your race, religion, gender, or sexuality.

Your ideas are not equal, let alone superior, simply because you are a proud, black, gay, women. They might be valuable, sure, but not because of your checkbox points.

Your ideas, and your lived experience, is valuable only as much as what it can teach us. We learn from someone respected and successful how to live our life in a better way, which is part of why the modern era has failed us because too many look up to the latest icon of ethical disasters rather than astronauts, firemen, and doctors. Likewise, we learn from the drunk on the corner to not drink to excess, and to keep our ducks in a row. May his wasted 'lived experience' teach us all... but it doesn't mean anything he might tell us is worth a damn.

'Lived experience', like everything else, is based on merit. Chose the right role models in life, and excel. But putting stock into someone's ideas simply because they're 'diverse' is woke idiocy. So yea, 'lived experience' is "all the rage", and always has been. Just choose wisely, and learn not just what to listen to, but what to shun.
I shun CeroFrio’s lived experience like he’s a homeless drunk on the street corner
 
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autoduelist

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Lol, a handful of people's personal achievements dont demonstrate squat and also assume I have a "woe is me" attitude. I'm not sitting on my ass crying about how unfair it all is. Im going to tech school to become an electrician while working 60+ hours a week. Im having my first child in november. But I guess I'm just not enough of a "go getter".

Sure is fun to assume you know what's going on in the head of someone you've never met, and to act as though your own personal success is proof of the laziness of all those less fortunate than you.
As an electrician I'm sure you'll share your wealth making 10x the sweaty guy next to you with a drill in his hand. Don't get me wrong, congrats on your achievements and i wish you the best of luck. And i'm not denigrating either electricians nor builders. But it just seems a bit comical for the electrician to be the one complaining about capitalism. Electricians around here often make too much to clean up after themselves, unless they are kind enough to do it off the clock. Capitalism will treat you well even if you badmouth it behind its back.
 
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CeroFrio996

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I've always hated arguments surrounding capitalism and socialism in a vacuum. The barrier-to-entry is far too high and the majority of the biggest economies are mixed anyways.
Yeah, including the American economy. Pretty much everyone is for a mixed economy, where they draw the line is the big difference.

:lollipop_frowning_mouth:

You’re also making mighty leaps in logic to think that saying that hard work and good decisions can lead to success means that every unsuccessful person is a lazy parasite. Moreover, believing that unsuccessful == unfortunate robs people of agency.
When you anwser the remark of "some people have it hard in America" with "well I don't, I'm doing just fine!" there's an implied judgement. Then there's this wonderful list that people keep pointing out of the the three things that you can do to avoid poverty... like it's some magical mantra that will shoo all the poor people away.

Your argument is essentially “hard work inherently goes unrewarded in the current system”.

The fact that other people have had their hard work rewarded in the current system means that your argument is wrong.
"the flu kills people!"

"well I survived, so your argument that the flu kills people is wrong."

People can thrive in a system that's rigged against them, if they are lucky or advantaged.

Nobody is claiming lived experience isn't valuable. We've been learning from our elders since time memorial. But here's the thing: we don't base the truth or value of your 'lived experience' on your race, religion, gender, or sexuality.
So you don't think people who are black have a different life experience than people who are white? That doesn't mean they are the literal authority on everything, but surely they have a different perspective that we should respect?

Your ideas, and your lived experience, is valuable only as much as what it can teach us. We learn from someone respected and successful how to live our life in a better way, which is part of why the modern era has failed us because too many look up to the latest icon of ethical disasters rather than astronauts, firemen, and doctors. Likewise, we learn from the drunk on the corner to not drink to excess, and to keep our ducks in a row. May his wasted 'lived experience' teach us all... but it doesn't mean anything he might tell us is worth a damn.
You sneer at the drunk on the corner... you've already decided his input isn't valuable BECAUSE he's a drunk/ homeless. I think that's far worst identity politics than anything the "left" could ever do. That drunk on the corner could be a veteran with PTSD, or a genius with schizophrenia, but you've already written him off because he doesn't live up to your idea of worthiness.

'Lived experience', like everything else, is based on merit. Chose the right role models in life, and excel. But putting stock into someone's ideas simply because they're 'diverse' is woke idiocy. So yea, 'lived experience' is "all the rage", and always has been. Just choose wisely, and learn not just what to listen to, but what to shun.
Can I shun the lived experiences of CEOs who move from company to company giving themselves massive bonuses and then taking severance in the form of millions when they inevitably run a company into the ground?

As an electrician I'm sure you'll share your wealth making 10x the sweaty guy next to you with a drill in his hand. Don't get me wrong, congrats on your achievements and i wish you the best of luck. And i'm not denigrating either electricians nor builders. But it just seems a bit comical for the electrician to be the one complaining about capitalism. Electricians around here often make too much to clean up after themselves, unless they are kind enough to do it off the clock. Capitalism will treat you well even if you badmouth it behind its back.
I'm not against Capitalism... I'm against pure capitalism, but I'm pretty sure most of you are. I'm for a mixed economy. But the system we have right now isn't capitalism either. As I said, it's been bought and sold by those with money and power. So I'm not complaining about capitalism... I'm complaining about the current American economic structure.

And when I'm an electrician I'm going to open my own businesses set up like a partnership and hire lots of apprentices and advocate for trade schools and help fund trade school scholarships.

I'm already working in my local community to start trades apprentice programs in highschools.

Capitalism isn't great either, really a balance of both is needed for mankind to be happy and thrive.
Mixed market economy is really the only way the system can work. What you pay for through taxes/ let government programs handle is the big debate, but I don't honestly thing people believe we should live in a 100% capitalist country.

I honestly believe the things government should do should be limited to the things that can't be fairly negotiated or that inherently don't allow for competition, the exception being schooling. I think public schools in general really need to be restructured from the bottom up, but I really think the compulsory schooling age needs to be increased to 20-21. You can still drop out, but the schooling between 18-21 would be the kind of early required schooling for college or some kind of voucher program for trades.

And we NEED to eliminate private prisons.
 
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*Nightwing

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Capitalism isn't great either, really a balance of both is needed for mankind to be happy and thrive.
This a 100x's. Hong Kong pre Chinese unification was the only true 100% capitalistic economy in the world with limited regulations letting the market control itself. It does not work as counterfeiting, intellectual property theft, and corruption to control and stear the market for economic benefits run rampart. In short greed for cash ruins it. Pure socialism never works either as greed for power always arises and ruins it. Checks, balances and controls making it a hybrid system are what make western capitalism the best functioning economy type in the current world
 

Vicetrailia

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Mixed market economy is really the only way the system can work. What you pay for through taxes/ let government programs handle is the big debate, but I don't honestly thing people believe we should live in a 100% capitalist country.

I honestly believe the things government should do should be limited to the things that can't be fairly negotiated or that inherently don't allow for competition, the exception being schooling. I think public schools in general really need to be restructured from the bottom up, but I really think the compulsory schooling age needs to be increased to 20-21. You can still drop out, but the schooling between 18-21 would be the kind of early required schooling for college or some kind of voucher program for trades.

And we NEED to eliminate private prisons.
I don't think that anyone is seeking pure capitalism, we're just talking about having the foundation. A mixed economy is the only way to go, clearly.

I don't get why you want more schooling though, to achieve what exactly?
 

CeroFrio996

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I don't think that anyone is seeking pure capitalism, we're just talking about having the foundation. A mixed economy is the only way to go, clearly.

I don't get why you want more schooling though, to achieve what exactly?
Well first of all I want to restructure middle and high school around practical learning, the extra 2-3 years would be instead of state funded college and be required courses. In the current system they tend to be redundant with courses already offered in high school anyway. That time could also be used for early degree programs and trade schools.

Pure socialism never works either as greed for power always arises and ruins it.
It's all greed for power. In america money is basically meaningless after a certain amount, but when you can buy political favor money becomes power.

Yet another reason why we need publicly funded elections and more than two relevant political parties.
 
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autoduelist

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So you don't think people who are black have a different life experience than people who are white? That doesn't mean they are the literal authority on everything, but surely they have a different perspective that we should respect?
So what you're saying is...

Seriously. You're so off you should just reread my post.

You sneer at the drunk on the corner... you've already decided his input isn't valuable BECAUSE he's a drunk/ homeless. I think that's far worst identity politics than anything the "left" could ever do. That drunk on the corner could be a veteran with PTSD, or a genius with schizophrenia, but you've already written him off because he doesn't live up to your idea of worthiness.
Sneer? Nah. You are missing the point. His ideas are not as valuable as someone else's simply because -exists-. If he has this super spy backstory you want to invent, then sure, he might have an idea worth sharing if you can sober him up. But his ideas aren't equal to yours simply because he lived a different life than you, his ideas must actually be good on their own merit.

Look at you... you've created this whole mystical story for the downtrodden. He's suddenly a genius with schizophrenia, or a vet. Well, guess what... there are more geniuses than you could ever have time to talk to without schizophrenia. There are vets out there that aren't reduced to the streets we should be listening to in order to get this vet off the street. Odds are, people who managed to succeed have better ideas than those who fail, unless you are looking for guidance on what not to do. Just like you should look to the parenting techniques of parents with good kids, not rowdy nightmares, as you yourself take a swing at fatherhood.

Not to mention, you fully ignored my point in the first place. We value ideas and lived experience based on merit. What we don't do is value their opinion on the things i listed: race, religion, etc. Ideas aren't good simply because the person who said them looks different from us. They are good if they work, and bad if they fail.

Can I shun the lived experiences of CEOs who move from company to company giving themselves massive bonuses and then taking severance in the form of millions when they inevitably run a company into the ground?
Just because that has happened doesn't mean that is all that happens. Sure, some people exploit a company. But plenty of people don't and some of those CEOs create tens of thousands of jobs.

Capitalism did not create that greedy ceo. People like that will always exist, and always try to rise to power in any system. This is a huge plus for diverse capitalism and small governments, and a strong argument against globalism. At least their sphere of influence is contained. If you move power to government via socialism or communism, those very same people you hate will now rise to power in government, but now their shit greed and ideas will affect every single company, not just one.

I'm not against Capitalism... I'm against pure capitalism, but I'm pretty sure most of you are. I'm for a mixed economy. But the system we have right now isn't capitalism either. As I said, it's been bought and sold by those with money and power. So I'm not complaining about capitalism... I'm complaining about the current American economic structure.
As flawed as America is, we are amazing. And what if all that 'mixed economy' with corrupt politicians is exactly what caused the problems with our system in the first place?

What if the simple truth is that a lot of smart people that seek power are corrupt? People are flawed in general. What if the system we need isn't an all powerful govt that keeps them in check, because govt itself gets corrupted by these very same people, but rather a far smaller, far more hands off approach that keeps these people in smaller spheres of influence? Smaller governments with less power, more constraints. Smaller companies, not multinational media conglomerates.
 
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Whitesnake

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“the flu kills people!"

"well I survived, so your argument that the flu kills people is wrong."

People can thrive in a system that's rigged against them, if they are lucky or advantaged.
That’s not a very good comparison.

You’re comparing Capitalism, which is a type of economic system that has strengths and weaknesses, to a viral illness which is exclusively negative.

And your original argument would more akin to saying “people who get the flu will die”.

And even in your last statement you still refuse to admit that hard work is even sometimes rewarded by deflecting it as “luck” or “advantage”.
 
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OSC

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It's become quite clear to me over the years that merit, drive, ambition, and elbow grease all exist, and are not equally distributed. Forcing redistribution is inherently anti-liberty.]
It's not just that, take Bezos wealth and distribute it amongst all americans. They each get a few 100 dollars, nothing. While concentrated the money can be used for space exploration, innovation, countless luxuries, spread about it can't accomplish much.
Also the value of money is based on its scarcity amongst most of the population, if everyone has 1 Billion dollars then everyone can bid up the cost of resources, such that hyperinflation results and everyone ends up poor.
It's amazing how lived experience is suddenly all the rage when it supports your world view.
It is not just experiences, but class mobility, while it has been reduced it is still significant. If you're willing to take loans, and have the capacity to prosper, you can go to STEM or for lower cost the Trades.



It does not work as counterfeiting, intellectual property theft, and corruption to control and stear the market for economic benefits run rampart.
There is no such thing as intellectual property theft. This idea that if someone has an idea first, he is free to restrict what others do with their own bodies and with their own physical property is a nonsensical infringement on others innate right of freedom.

Imagine someone does something with their own private property, without physically harming anyone, in their own time. But you claim right to what they can and cannot do with their physical property, and you physically harm them with the monopolistic power on force that government has.

Ideas cannot be owned. To the extent that we restrict others innate freedom to express themselves, it must be to a limited extent and only as justified by improvements to society. Right now intellectual property law is hindering progress, is hindering creative expression, is costing human lives.
 
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CeroFrio996

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Right now intellectual property law is hindering progress, is hindering creative expression, is costing human lives.
Right on, comrade.

If you're willing to take loans
When a country is built on debt only the rich and powerful will have any wealth at all. The idea that loans, especially the high interest loans that the poorest americans have access to, will help social mobility is ridiculous. The fact is that being poor is expensive, and adding loan payments and interest payments on top of that isn't helping.
 
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merlinevo

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Right on, comrade.



When a country is built on debt only the rich and powerful will have any wealth at all. The idea that loans, especially the high interest loans that the poorest americans have access to, will help social mobility is ridiculous. The fact is that being poor is expensive, and adding loan payments and interest payments on top of that isn't helping.
The poor made their choice and they have to live with the consequence. There is no excuse for being poor in the USA, where opportunity is abound and the playing field is mostly equal. A black or brown kid as the same opportunities as a white or asian kid. The poor in the USA are considered rich in other countries. Being poor in the USA still means having access to food, water, electricity, school, healthcare, social security, safety net. Don't try to conflate luxury with necessity.

The poor absolute do not deserve a luxury house, car, or the latest electronics. They never worked for it.
 

crowbrow

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I think right now we can take good things from both systems. Capitalism has the obvious advantage of being able to motivate people to generate wealth while focusing on the (private) individual as the force to generate that wealth. That provides importance to the individual and the wealth it provides. The thing is when that wealth and that individual start to exploit others this is where socialism can be useful. Socialism can provide a more collective perspective, we can see both as complementary, individuals are not well if the collective is not well and the collective is not well if individuals are not well. So with socialism you can introduce policies to redistribute wealth and prevent the concentration of too much economic power on certain individuals. It can also include basic rights and services to individuals with less voice like universal healthcare and worker rights by using the wealth produced by capitalism. Socialism can get nasty too if the individual and the private property are completely forgotten and undermined in favor of a collective that basically dehumanizes people, this is where capitalism should step in and remind of the benefits of letting people realize themselves as human beings that generate wealth privately.

In the end I see them as opposite forces that mirror the opposite aspects of human nature, we are social individuals (which is a bit of a contradictory position to be in but could also be complementary) so we develop and are determined by our own internal worlds and minds but also by the external world of the society and culture we live in. This is a balance that is not easy to keep but that I think should develop the most successful and fair social/economic models.
 
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Afro Republican

GAF>INTERNET>GAF, BITCHES
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The issue with Capitalism, the type that the left is saying is causing certain "issues" is because in the 70's America started adding Socialist elements to the core of the countries capitalism so it has a mixture of Red tendencies which over time has ballooned and become a major problem,.

If America never did that certain aspects of "society" that cause people to think socialism is better wouldn't exist, at least in this country.

Also there's some misinformation that capitalism allows monopolization of markets which isn't how capitalism works because it would take away equal access and competition. That's actually more of a communist trait where you have a corp or org basically control who can do what like the users lawn example in the first couple posts, that's not capitalism, but people think it is.
 

Vicetrailia

Formerly 'ViceUniverse'
Mar 12, 2019
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It's not just that, take Bezos wealth and distribute it amongst all americans. They each get a few 100 dollars, nothing. While concentrated the money can be used for space exploration, innovation, countless luxuries, spread about it can't accomplish much.
Also the value of money is based on its scarcity amongst most of the population, if everyone has 1 Billion dollars then everyone can bid up the cost of resources, such that hyperinflation results and everyone ends up poor.

It is not just experiences, but class mobility, while it has been reduced it is still significant. If you're willing to take loans, and have the capacity to prosper, you can go to STEM or for lower cost the Trades.




There is no such thing as intellectual property theft. This idea that if someone has an idea first, he is free to restrict what others do with their own bodies and with their own physical property is a nonsensical infringement on others innate right of freedom.

Imagine someone does something with their own private property, without physically harming anyone, in their own time. But you claim right to what they can and cannot do with their physical property, and you physically harm them with the monopolistic power on force that government has.

Ideas cannot be owned. To the extent that we restrict others innate freedom to express themselves, it must be to a limited extent and only as justified by improvements to society. Right now intellectual property law is hindering progress, is hindering creative expression, is costing human lives.
Well statistically class mobility in the US leaves a lot to be desired. The status of your parents is important. We still have significantly different opportunities based on our parents.

The key thing is that it is still possible, made easier with student loans.

All of the boomers saw class mobility, but current generations are different.
 
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