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The Tempest Engine Inside PS5 is Just a PS3 Cell Processor ?

CobraXT

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Mark Cerny said the tempest audio engine chip inside the PS5 can be used as graphic renderer if the developer do not want the 3D audio stuff and it
equales 9 PS4 Jauguar cores .. ! Does anyone remember that Chart form Usbisoft





PS3 CPU performace equales exactly that .. even more Cerny said the Tempst Engine are designed with SPU units just like the Cell Processor ?
What do you think guys ?
 
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xiaoming10086

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I thought it was a "SPU-like" core, not a SPU.

EDIT: Yeah, "we modified a compute unite in such a way as to make it very close to the SPUs in PS3." that's what cerny said.

EDIT2: Later cerny add :"Where we ended up is a unit with roughly the same SIMD power and bandwidth as all eight jaguar cores in the PS4 combined."
 
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Radical_3d

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It’s half a Cell. I think the Ubisoft chart was some sort of general computing, but the performance in the Cell is 200GFs not 103.
 

ethomaz

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IBM did not Shrink the CPU to lower process.
 

jonnyp

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The tempest engine is a stripped down CU from what I remember, without caches, relying solely on DMA transfers - similar to a PS3 SPU.
 
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xiaoming10086

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And since the CPU and GPU are doing different works, you can't just directly compare the compute power and say which one is better, because without eigher one the system will not function.
 

M1chl

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Yes because it would be super conveniet, even from lega perspective, to have PowerPC inside x86 architecture and RDNA2. IQ 16 000, today's GPU's works in some abstract sense like Cell, but that does not make it "Cell SoC"...
 
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mili2110

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So if the Tempest Engine can be used for graphics as well (if the dev decides not to use 3d audio), does that mean that the PS5 has 37 CUs??
 

manzo

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What they did:

Took an RDNA compute unit, stripped it of all cache, basically making it a DMA only unit just like an SPU was. This way they got a SIMD unit which has the parallelization of a GPU. Perfect for audio, as the SPU’s were.

that one unit has roughly the capability of the entire 8 cores of a Jaguar, so roughly 100 Gflops.

so instead of relying on a single core for audio as in current gen, we now have a dedicated audio processor dealing with audio, kinda like the PSVR unit has.
 
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Ar¢tos

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So if the Tempest Engine can be used for graphics as well (if the dev decides not to use 3d audio), does that mean that the PS5 has 37 CUs??
Considering the CU is modified for better SIMD, it is more suited for GPGPU operations than graphics rendering (if you don't want to use it for audio).
 
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mili2110

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So since the PS5 GPU has 40 CUs (4 deactivated for better yield) where does the tempest engine CU come from? From 1 of the 4 deactivated CUs? Or is one of the 36 CUs being used for 3d Audio?? I mean you cant have 41 CUs right?
 

M1chl

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Yes, Jaguar was a downgrade.
Well, not sure about that one chief, maybe in terms of theoretical power, but in-order execution, bottlenecking central controller, super small cache on SPEs. In some very limited application, sure it could be faster, in practice. Obsolutely not. x86 CPUs are just way more versatile. We are talking about games, not Folding@Home...
 

INC

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It's a number cruncher correct, why not use it as a dedicate chip for AI and physics based destruction calculations.

Couldnt it even be used to calculate ray tracing and the bounces for light?

Or am I thinking about this all wrong?
 

FranXico

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Well, not sure about that one chief, maybe in terms of theoretical power, but in-order execution, bottlenecking central controller, super small cache on SPEs. In some very limited application, sure it could be faster, in practice. Obsolutely not. x86 CPUs are just way more versatile. We are talking about games, not Folding@Home...
Point taken.
 

Barakov

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Mark Cerny said the tempest audio engine chip inside the PS5 can be used as graphic renderer if the developer do not want the 3D audio stuff and it
equales 9 PS4 Jauguar cores .. ! Does anyone remember that Chart form Usbisoft





PS3 CPU performace equales exactly that .. even more Cerny said the Tempst Engine are designed with SPU units just like the Cell Processor ?
What do you think guys ?


The curse begins anew.
 
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geordiemp

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Mark Cerny said the tempest audio engine chip inside the PS5 can be used as graphic renderer if the developer do not want the 3D audio stuff and it
equales 9 PS4 Jauguar cores .. ! Does anyone remember that Chart form Usbisoft





PS3 CPU performace equales exactly that .. even more Cerny said the Tempst Engine are designed with SPU units just like the Cell Processor ?
What do you think guys ?

Cell was not a great CPU, what it excelled at and is more powerful than Ps4 was calculations using FFT (frequency domain). FFT calculations are common in sound processing.

Cell was a beast at processing frequency domain data and sound, and is still better to this day than Ps4 and XB1.

Cerny put cell like SPUs in ps5 for sound. who would of thought ?
 
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CobraXT

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Cell was not a great CPU, what it excelled at and is more powerful than Ps4 was calculations using FFT (frequency domain). FFT calculations are common in sound processing.

Cell was a beast at processing frequency domain data and sound, and is still better to this day than Ps4 and XB1.

Cerny put cell like SPUs in ps5 for sound. who would of thought ?

You didn't say anything new .. PS3 CPU is just good for audio .. i thought they could use it for audio and PS3 BC , but apparently i was wrong
 
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geordiemp

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You didn't say anything new .. PS3 CPU is just good for audio .. i thought they could use it for audio and PS3 BC , but apparently i am wrong

Ps3 SPU were very strong for FFTs, can be used for anything that benefits for that calculation but primarily audio.

ps3 BC who knows ?
 
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longdi

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I was predicting it is just a defective cu repurposed into sound processor.

PS5 graphics have 40CU, 36CU alive, 4CU dead - so the Tempest is part of this 'dead' ones? 🤷‍♀️
 
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manzo

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So since the PS5 GPU has 40 CUs (4 deactivated for better yield) where does the tempest engine CU come from? From 1 of the 4 deactivated CUs? Or is one of the 36 CUs being used for 3d Audio?? I mean you cant have 41 CUs right?

The custom audio unit has absolutely nothing to do with the GPU. It's not a disabled compute unit, it's not part of the GPU package.

They just designed a separate, fully custom chip with the architecture basis of an RDNA compute unit.

I was predicting it is just a defective cu repurposed into sound processor.

PS5 graphics have 40CU, 36CU alive, 4CU dead - so the Tempest is part of this 'dead' ones? 🤷‍♀️

See above. Absolutely nothing to do with the GPU inside PS5 except for the base architecture.
 
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EdGaltBR

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It is, afaik. CPU is what is holding games from pushing for better framerate or complexity this gen, that's why people celebrates Zen CPU for next gen

That means that the Switch has a far less powerful CPU than X360 / PS3.
 

longdi

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The custom audio unit has absolutely nothing to do with the GPU. It's not a disabled compute unit, it's not part of the GPU package.

They just designed a separate, fully custom chip with the architecture basis of an RDNA compute unit.

See above. Absolutely nothing to do with the GPU inside PS5 except for the base architecture.

Idk man, sounds 'cheaper' to just use a defective one? It is already connected to the memory bus and all.
Probably they found a baseline where all defective ones have enough sauce left for audio processing.
 

Inviusx

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Cerny made a point about how great the Cell was for audio processing but I have no recollection of PS3 audio being anymore impressive than other consoles at the time......
 
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longdi

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Cerny made a point about how great the Cell was for audio processing but I have no recollection of PS3 audio being anymore impressive than other consoles at the time......

A lot of 'impressive overheads' dont show in real world in my experience, probably because consoles are a very constrained priced item.
Maybe if you dedicate 50% of Cell for audio, it be good? But you need Cell in other things too. 🤷‍♀️
 

manzo

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Idk man, sounds 'cheaper' to just use a defective one? It is already connected to the memory bus and all.
Probably they found a baseline where all defective ones have enough sauce left for audio processing.

I don't think you can repurpose a defective CU in the wafer as the audio unit, as the design is quite different without the caches and all. I'm quite sure that the audio chip's unit is done on a different wafer.
 

Aceofspades

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Is just?
Dude CELL is one of the most powerful CPUs ever made, still true to this day.

To answer your question, TE is a repurposed CU compute units to function like SPEs used in PS3. The estimated SIMD performance of it is stronger than 8 Jaguar cores.


Tempest Engine is a beastly hardware inside PS5.
 
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Yep, with Tempest PS5 has actually 37CUs and 10.4 total tflops performance ! :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Yes, Jaguar was a downgrade.
It's not as simple as that. PS3 CPU was indeed great for graphics and physics calculations (thankfully because PS3 GPU was not great). For tradtitionnal CPU tasks, like branch prediction and stuff, PS3 CPU was awful, even compared to X360 Xenon. The vast majority of multiplat ran often much better on X360, particularly in the beginning, but even in the end of the generation. On the other hand Jaguar is mainly doing tradtionnal CPU tasks and is much better than Cell for that.

For instance MGS5 runs 3 times better on PS4 than on PS3 (~20fps, and MGS5 actually ran better on X360 than on PS3, even with a lower res on PS3). Similar thing for Battlefield 4, 30fps on PS3 and 60fps (usually) on PS4. That's only possible with a much better CPU.
 
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mili2110

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The Tempest engine itself is, as Cerny explained in his presentation, a revamped AMD compute unit, which runs at the GPU's frequency and delivers 64 flops per cycle. Peak performance from the engine is therefore in the region of 100 gigaflops, in the ballpark of the entire eight-core Jaguar CPU cluster used in PlayStation 4. While based on GPU architecture, utilisation is very, very different.
- From DF Interview with Cerny

- Who in the actual fuck believes that the Tempest Engine has some kind of own die? It is connected to the memory bus (takes max. 20GB/s) and runs at GPU frequency (variable but max. 2.23Ghz). Why would the tempest engine be outside of the GPU???? It is a CU of the GPU. Thats why it runs at GPU frequency! The question remains, if one of the 36CUs is being used as the TE or one of the deactivated ones (which makes no sense to me).
 
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Caio

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The PS3 CPU is better than PS4 one?

From what I know, the Cell has more "raw power" than the PS4 Jaguar CPU, even though the PS4 CPU is easier to develop for, and most of its power is devoted for "non graphical / general purpose tasks", so the CPU is used like a conventional CPU, while the PS4 GPU is taking care about Graphics. In the PS3, the Cell was used to do most of the work, even those tasks that generally(XBox 360) are handled by the GPU. It's true that the Cell was more powerful than the Jaguar, but it has to do a lot more; basicly in real game applications, the PS4 CPU has more available power for AI, animations, and general purpose tasks, and much easier to develop for.
 

Romulus

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Dude CELL is one of the most powerful CPUs ever made, still true to this day.

By what actual metric? Hiding behind a complicated architecture and screaming "it has potential" is all I ever saw from it. Sony ps3 exclusives were mostly linear, grainy, 30fps games with nice animations. Never once saw an exclusive that made me think it was some anomaly powerhouse.
 

RaySoft

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So if the Tempest Engine can be used for graphics as well (if the dev decides not to use 3d audio), does that mean that the PS5 has 37 CUs??
No
It won't be used for much outside audio calculations.
Cerny mentioned that it would probably have some juice left (outside it's prim. jobs) that could be used anyhow the devs desire, but hardly something to write about.
Also remember, when Cery says it has a full Jaguar cores performance, he means that for a Jaguar to do the same job, it would use all it's cores. It's not the same the other way around. Tempest wouldnt do typical CPU workloads at the same level that a Jaguar would. (or any other CPU cores ofc)
 
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Mark Cerny said the tempest audio engine chip inside the PS5 can be used as graphic renderer if the developer do not want the 3D audio stuff and it
equales 9 PS4 Jauguar cores .. ! Does anyone remember that Chart form Usbisoft





PS3 CPU performace equales exactly that .. even more Cerny said the Tempst Engine are designed with SPU units just like the Cell Processor ?
What do you think guys ?
He said that it had some architectural features in common with the Cell--because it was great for low latency work--but I recall him saying that it was essentially a modified Radeon GPU core (I can't recall their exact names)
 
Jan 29, 2019
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By what actual metric? Hiding behind a complicated architecture and screaming "it has potential" is all I ever saw from it. Sony ps3 exclusives were mostly linear, grainy, 30fps games with nice animations. Never once saw an exclusive that made me think it was some anomaly powerhouse.
The Cell had to compensate for the anemic CPU in the graphics, the linearity was because of memory and I/O constraints (also, if you want to tell a story, you need some structure).