The top 400 women in esports combined earn less than half of what the top man makes

Gargus

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Oct 1, 2018
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So? What is their rank? How often do they win?

Show me where a woman wins 1st in a specific tournament, and then show me 1st place in the exact same tournament where a man won it. Now compare their winnings. If their winnings are different by at least 10% or more (no increase in prize amounts do not count for a man winning more simply the prize was increased after she won) then I will listen. Till then fuck off with this shit.

And no OP, I wasn't aiming the fuck off at you personally.
 

Mendax89

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May 21, 2019
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Because the top 400 women in e-sports can't produce half of what the top man produces. It's capitalism. To earn more we need to prodice more and/or better.
 
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Is Mystik a biological woman? 1 and 3, Scarlett and Ortiz, are transgender from male to female.

Presumably they were raking in the cash as men but then they had to take a pay cut when they transitioned to women.

Because if an individual has identified as a male and a female and they make about the same amount of money or more after transitioning...Well...you know...then this stuff about pay differences being gender discriminatory would just be silly.
 
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joe_zazen

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Of course, there are barriers in every society. Go to any high school or middle school and you'll find that kids are teased for performing activities outside of their gender roles. I find it hard to believe that you haven't encountered a single barrier in your life.

Females, on the whole, don't play that many hardcore games. You're more likely to do something if your peers do it too and if society deems it as proper. This isn't absolute (obviously people can rebel), but these pressures exist everywhere.

A barrier doesn't have to mean that someone legally can't do something. That's why I specifically said social/cultural barriers, meaning they are either looked down upon or not enforced as strongly. Very different from some 3rd world societies where a woman literally cannot do something by law.

Go look at Twitch chat when a woman shows up in an esports gaming stream. They're sexualized and discriminated, to an extent. The same does not occur when males show up and this is because esports is dominated by males.

You're free to disagree with me, I'd be more than willing to discuss.
So do we need programs in place to belittle ‘girlie’ games like animal crossing or barbie, and push girls into murder games because they are ‘better’? Like what concrete steps do you think should be taken to fix this esport imbalance?

I despise this ideology that girls must be like boys or it is discrimination and cultural domination of the poor female who are to dumb to know that they should be interested in shootng people in the face in videogames rather than play dressup or interior design games.

If there are fewer females wanting to pretend shoot people in the face maybe that is a good thing.
 

XVision84

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So do we need programs in place to belittle ‘girlie’ games like animal crossing or barbie, and push girls into murder games because they are ‘better’? Like what concrete steps do you think should be taken to fix this esport imbalance?

I despise this ideology that girls must be like boys or it is discrimination and cultural domination of the poor female who are to dumb to know that they should be interested in shootng people in the face in videogames rather than play dressup or interior design games.

If there are fewer females wanting to pretend shoot people in the face maybe that is a good thing.
I'm not going to pretend to have a solution, however I believe that it will happen naturally as more people (including females) adopt gaming as a hobby.

Why do girls need to be like boys, why does gaming need to be a boy thing? Boys face barriers too, we all do. I'm not victimizing females. I just observe the way people I know have been treated and how esports women have been publicly treated. That does influence what people think/want to indulge in.

Why are some of you so sensitive about these kinds of subjects? I originally stated that I thought social/cultural barriers could be a factor of less women in esports. Not that society is institutionally sexist and we need to instill conversion programs to fix this. Some of you make me feel like I'm advocating for a new world order :messenger_grinning_squinting:
 

joe_zazen

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I'

Why are some of you so sensitive about these kinds of subjects? I originally stated that I thought social/cultural barriers could be a factor of less women in esports. Not that society is institutionally sexist and we need to instill conversion programs to fix this. Some of you make me feel like I'm advocating for a new world order :messenger_grinning_squinting:
Probably rhetorical, but good excuse for some self reflection...

It probably stems from my shitty childhood with a mother who was the antithesis of maternal. And because i see virtually nothing in society that celebrates what i see as feminine traits (love, compassion, cooperation, maternal caring, etc), when someone says it is a problem that girls don't play murder games and it is because societal pressures are oppressing them, yeah it touches a nerve.

It seems like society wants to push girls into areas that just maybe they aren't, in general, wired for. Like maybe the reason woman dominate the caregiving/teaching professions isn't because they are being shamed or oppressed into them, but because that is what many women want to do.
 

XVision84

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Probably rhetorical, but good excuse for some self reflection...

It probably stems from my shitty childhood with a mother who was the antithesis of maternal. And because i see virtually nothing in society that celebrates what i see as feminine traits (love, compassion, cooperation, maternal caring, etc), when someone says it is a problem that girls don't play murder games and it is because societal pressures are oppressing them, yeah it touches a nerve.

It seems like society wants to push girls into areas that just maybe they aren't, in general, wired for. Like maybe the reason woman dominate the caregiving/teaching professions isn't because they are being shamed or oppressed into them, but because that is what many women want to do.
I'm sorry to hear about your childhood. I hope everything went well after that! :)

Those traits are certainly wonderful and should be celebrated. I didn't say that it was a problem, just that it was a factor to outline the trend. We all feel societal pressures, not just girls.

There is research going on addressing the points in your second paragraph (what girls/guys are "wired for") in fields like evolutionary psychology. The issue I've had with it is that much of it isn't very conclusive due to the nature of the field.

The problem is that what society values and expects of people influences what they want. Does it do that completely? No. But it's a factor. So how much is it "wiring" vs social pressure? I don't know. I've read studies that back up both sides.
 
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MayauMiao

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The article is a joke. Comparing a TOP PLAYER against someone who is at No.329?

But because player No.329 has a vagina, it becomes a huge problem to these woke journos.
 
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Sp3eD

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Who the fuck still plays DOA4. That shit was pretty bad when it came out 15 years ago...
 

BlackTron

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While we're at it, why don't we just mass produce a bunch of cheap trophies to hand out to everyone that plays?

They'll even all have the exact same award stamped on.

"I TRIED."
 
Oct 26, 2018
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Sasha “Scarlett” Hostyn comes in at 329 in the list of highest paid esports professionals. She is the only woman in the top 500 earners.
While we're at it, why don't we just mass produce a bunch of cheap trophies to hand out to everyone that plays?

They'll even all have the exact same award stamped on.

"I TRIED."
Have fun, Make your own!

 
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Endangered08

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I'd like to see the breakdown of right handed to left handed earners.

Not because it matters but because its 100000% more interesting than this gender BS.
 

Rhazer Fusion

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In my own world.
m.youtube.com
There are 400 women in Esports? Much higher than I thought. Are these women drawing in crowds and spectators like the male players do? Are they as skilled and relevant at games for a prolonged period of time? I’m seriously wondering because I haven’t heard of most of those players.

Normally in an environment like this, I would assume the more skilled you are, the more well known become and the more you draw and earn.
 
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PocoJoe

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Im just gonna say it since you guys won't: girls are bad at videogames.

Its gotten better in the last 5 or 6 years but its still like watchin a microwave cook aluminum foil. Theres just no situational awareness or athleticism from them. Any girls reading this who disagree 1v1 me outside bro 10th prestige cod sergeant colonel reporting.
You are probably right, women have worse situational awareness/intelligence in general.

So bad that it is every day problem almost. Go to store, fleemarket, walk on the street = every day there are tens/hundreds of women whom have no idea about what is happening around them.

They stand in the middle of aisle/street, dont give a way when someone is passing them, just staring at some item with glassy eyes. Going from side to side without looking if bicycles are coming etc

Flee markets are the worst, every fucking Time there are so many women that are on the way and dont give some room.

I would estimate that 80/100 women are like this, and maybe 10/100 of men, as most men are aware to give some room to pass even if i walk from their backside

I have also seen some studies about it, and they stated that women have "lower situational intelligence"
 
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Sakura

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What is stopping girls from competing against the top male earners? If they were equally skilled then they could be top DOTA players too. Not like these competitions are gender restricted as far as I am aware.
 

LazyParrot

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Then why are there no female players in those tournaments like at all?
Because there are barely any women playing those games, period. Games like CSGO or Dota are sausage fests even at the lowest level of play. Chances of any given male player making it to a tournament where they can win enough to end up in these rankings are nearly zero to begin with, and the odds are even worse for women simply because there are so few of them playing.
 

Katsura

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We don't even have to compare skills of male vs female gamers to explain this. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of competitive gamers are male. With a far bigger pool of players, chances are the best are going to be males too. Of course, these woke idiots like to claim that the reason there aren't as many female gamers is because of patriarchy or some shit. To them, i'll just leave this here
 

ZywyPL

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As billions of studies and surveys have shown already, gaming is a men's thing, just as the military, vehicles, sports, etc. etc. And guys watch other guys, hence the viewership = hence the revenue, That's just the way the cookie crumbles.
 

llien

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Scarlet is a transwoman, so, yeah.

Note that most girls are not interested in that kind of games (neither playing, nor watching, for that matter, although I'm pretty sure most of the audience would prefer watching girls play over boys, for reasons while female streamers are more populare)

I don't think a woman will be harshly bullied for picking up a controller, I think that she is less likely to spend a significant portion of her time doing so due to 1) decreased exposure to video games 2) smaller social incentive 3) expectations on her by her peers/society.
Can we drop the #3 pretty please?

"Expectations", my arse. Most kids who are good at eSports spend insane hours in game, which is guaranteed to cause anger by their parents.
It was the case with the winner

Over human sapiens history women had little to no inscentive to participate in any "kind of the hill" activities, no wonder nobody cares now either.

We're number 1! We're number 1! We're number 1!
We are not number one, some dude is.
 
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Zotaku

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Thot streamers though.
Fuck yea! No high apm or quick reactions required. Just need to flash certain inherent female ASSets along with fruits on display; particularly of the "Cucumis Melo" variety.... And of course you have to show your genuine appreciation when the donations are raking in, with selfless smiles and kind words from the heart.... and this in turn will perpetuate the continuous flow of capital from disillusioned loners...with boners.
 

Helios

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Oh fair enough, shows my ignorance. I don't know much about eSports really.
Don't worry. It's pretty much the only player I know over the age of 30. Granted, most esports are pretty new in the whole scheme of things so that is probably also a factor.
 
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It's very simple: if 90% of gamers are guys, there is a bigger pool of talent to choose from. The top 400 women doesn't compare to the top 400 men because there are ten times more men than women playing videogames. The same applies to chess and other disciplines where men are predominant, without the influence of physical dominance.

This is Sesame Street logic but still difficult to apprehend for SJW journos.
 

Saruhashi

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Wouldn't it be the easiest thing to set up separate women's tournaments?

At least then you could allow the top women to make a bit more money and could also give them the chance to have success also.

This whole situation just feels like it could be undone by admitting that men and women are different and that's OK. Then have a women's tournament and encourage the women to get hyped about it and promote the events etc.

Otherwise you are just looking at ranking based on pure ability and the only way you are going to change that into a more "gender neutral" thing is to literally rip up society and build it up in such a way that women are more interested in these games.

Even then, I can't see how that would work without kind of "forcing" women to participate in something they may not have an interest in.

We must engineer society so that they won't be able to avoid becoming interested because it's like an invisible guiding hand making sure that girls become more interested in esports? That seems kind of fucked up.

Maybe for things like esports it's fine to just "let the chips fall where they may"?
 

Saruhashi

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Also gotta love how they just conflate "winnings" with "pay" so that they can tie it to the gender pay gap.

Let's say you have 5 women and 5 dudes in a contest with 1 million bucks going to the winner, 250k to 2nd place, 100k to 3rd place and then nothing for the rest. If 1st and 2nd place are dudes? OMFG Gender Pay Gap!

It's beyond stupid.

What's the point in having competitive anything if the winners and the losers are just given the exact same prize because "muh pay gap".
Why the hell would I try to win at all if I can just make zero effort, come in last, and then cry because it's discrimination to give 1st place more than me.
 

BrettWeir

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They will come up with anything to bitch about.

I'm a massive 5'4" and 150 lbs. I get paid 97% less than all NFL players. I better start demanding more money.

/s just for fun. :)
 
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Ogbert

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Th only thing this proves is that women aren’t as good at video games.

That’s it.
 

bryo4321

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I could see the wage gap argument leveled at like, accountants doing similar work. But this is competitive. This is about sponsorships and how good you are. You can’t really compare “pay” because it doesn’t work like that in competitive sports. What a stupid argument to try to make.
 

Zaffo

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Wouldn't it be the easiest thing to set up separate women's tournaments?

At least then you could allow the top women to make a bit more money and could also give them the chance to have success also.
They used to do that with Starcraft and Dota, it was a joke, like watching mid level players goofing around in random matches with the casters struggling to find anything interesting to talk about.
 

Horsemama1956

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There just aren't as many women who are complete social failures that are willing to sit in front of a screen 24/7.

Most pro gamers appear to be the types of people that would marry a stuffed animal and a lot of parents are probably fine letting their son live in a cave but grow concerned when their daughters just sit home alone all the time.

The money on the men's side wouldn't even be all that impressive if it weren't for a bunch of plebs anyways. People literally buy a digital fucking ticket to "attend" and get an exclusive hat and a few loot boxes to fund these big tournaments.

Pro gaming/streaming is all just very stupid.
 
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I don't know many (if any) naturally born women who through most of their childhood sat in front of a tv and grinded out videogames for 4 hours on schooldays and practically all-day on weekends. I don't make 6 million a year but I also cant beat the #1 ranked dota2 player (or prolly 1000th)...this def doesn't seem like a gender issue and moreso a "this is a male skill dominated field" issue. I mean 20 years ago even having a career based off playing videogames woulda got you laughed at, and 20 years ago a GOOD female videogame player was like trying to find a unicorn in hell.

I get in most fields the gender pay gap is an issue, but in skill based fields like this where physical attributes don't really affect your play....I don't know if it is. Want the best pay? be ranked #1. Or at least top 100 worldwide. but of course this is all opinion.
 
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Katsura

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Wouldn't it be the easiest thing to set up separate women's tournaments?

At least then you could allow the top women to make a bit more money and could also give them the chance to have success also.

This whole situation just feels like it could be undone by admitting that men and women are different and that's OK. Then have a women's tournament and encourage the women to get hyped about it and promote the events etc.

Otherwise you are just looking at ranking based on pure ability and the only way you are going to change that into a more "gender neutral" thing is to literally rip up society and build it up in such a way that women are more interested in these games.

Even then, I can't see how that would work without kind of "forcing" women to participate in something they may not have an interest in.

We must engineer society so that they won't be able to avoid becoming interested because it's like an invisible guiding hand making sure that girls become more interested in esports? That seems kind of fucked up.

Maybe for things like esports it's fine to just "let the chips fall where they may"?
Who would want to watch that? It'd end up like with the US womens soccer team that actually costs more money than it brings in
 

XVision84

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Scarlet is a transwoman, so, yeah.

Note that most girls are not interested in that kind of games (neither playing, nor watching, for that matter, although I'm pretty sure most of the audience would prefer watching girls play over boys, for reasons while female streamers are more populare)



Can we drop the #3 pretty please?

"Expectations", my arse. Most kids who are good at eSports spend insane hours in game, which is guaranteed to cause anger by their parents.
It was the case with the winner

Over human sapiens history women had little to no inscentive to participate in any "kind of the hill" activities, no wonder nobody cares now either.


We are not number one, some dude is.
I skimmed over the paper you posted and it's interesting. Positive parental interaction actually decreased gender appropriate behaviours for boys/girls with CAH, which is counter to my assertion. I won't deny that.

There are a few problems with using this to discount the influence of societal expectations.

One is the conditions of the study. It was done on children 3 to 10 years old, of which only ~100 were sampled (split that among boys, boys w/CAH, girls, girls w/CAH and it's quite limited), and it was performed across 2 to 3 eight minute play sessions. These simply do not reflect the conditions of the outside world. The pressures placed on individuals exceed parental interactions in their childhood, it's a product of peer influence, media, schooling, etc. across one's lifespan. Furthermore, the study didn't detail the interactions parents had with their children, only that it was positive or negative. People's relationships with their parents often do not boil down to those 2 simple assessments.

This isn't the fault of the study, the study didn't attempt to tackle such a question in the first place.

It's also worth noting that the authors of the paper said this:
In unaffected girls and boys, we found evidence supporting influences of parental reinforcement on
children’s toy choices
; for both girls and boys, positive maternal responses to play with boys’ toys correlated positively with time spent playing with boys’ toys. In addition, for boys, negative responses from
either mothers or fathers to play with boys’ toys correlated negatively with time spent playing with boys’ toys, a finding that also is consistent with the idea that parental reinforcement influences the actual choices made by children.
This trend actually affirms my stance that interactions with the environment and expectations may play a role in women's behaviours. There is a clear difference between children with CAH (which go against my claims) and children without CAH (which affirm my claims).

Science is hardly so clear cut that one paper produces an absolute conclusion and is enough to pass judgment on a concept/theory. You'll need a compelling line of evidence that's comprehensive in scope to pull that off.

In my opinion, this is the issue with psychological and sociological research. There are so many different people, so many different factors to take note of. It's less "clean" than the natural sciences. Findings in the natural sciences are also (usually) consistently replicable. There are many studies in psychology/sociology that were replicated and had different results (potentially due to the changing of the times).
 
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