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Rumor The Verge: Xbox Series S (7.5GB usable RAM, 4TF GPU, Up: Same CPU)

Marlenus

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Yes. Performance per watt means it's offering more performance for the same amount of power consumption. So if rdna 1. was consuming 180w for a 8 tflops card. Rdna 2.0 would be 8 tflops for just 120w.

What it would NOT be is offer 12 tflops of power for the same number of tflops.

What you are looking for is performance per clock. That shows the performance per flop metric we can use to figure out what an rdna 2 tflops is worth.
When AMD say performance it is safe to assume they mean an objective metric like Tflops. So 50% perf/watt increase means a 180W card in your example would provide 12Tflops.

As you say though what really matters is utilisation because even with such an increase if utilisation drops you might only see 20/30% fps increases from said Tflop increase. OTOH if utilisation goes up you might get a 60/70% fps increase. Obviously the numbers will be game specific as shaders are not always what causes a bottleneck.
 
Aug 8, 2012
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I would rather they ditch the disc drive and shave another $50 off the price.

Its a day 1 purchase if its less than 299. And I say that as someone who wasnt even gonna consider an Xbox this gen. Its gonna be my stop gap PC till I can afford a proper upgrade around 2022ish.
 

01011001

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Is it ok that it has less TF than the Xbox one x?
4TF RDNA1 GPUs on PC show almost the exact same performance than the GPU inside the One X

RDNA2 is rumoured to increase this performance advantage over GCN even more.

this means it is most likely slightly more powerful than the GPU inside the One X for running the same games (more modern engines will widen this advantage more and more over time)

and the CPU will most likely be around 9 to 10 times more powerful than the One X's CPU, that's using PC tests Zen2 vs Jaguar.

then there's all the new GPU features the RDNA2 GPU will bring with it, including RT acceleration and 4/8bit acceleration which can be used for AI upscaling etc.
 
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TigerKnee

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If MS are hellbent on releasing a Series S, I HOPE they make an absolutely clear statement that the Series S is the port-down machine, i.e the Series X is the main platform and baseline for their next-gen system development. It needs to be a 100% clear-cut statement, no wiggle room, and set the record straight.

Because while there are even people here concern-trolling and doing bad faith arguments Lockhart will hold back Series X, to be perfectly honest...there is no definitive statement from MS on this to shut down any of those concerns, either. All of the hype and goodwill they've built up for next-gen has been through the XSX; if they either outright go forward internally or let a narrative dominate that Lockhart/Series S will be their main focus, all of that hype and goodwill will be lost. Literally all of it.

I still say there are logistical reasons to not release Lockhart, in fact some of those are the same reason I have doubts with Sony's dual PS5 SKu strategy, too. But at least in Sony's case the only thing different between the two models is a disc drive. The differences between XSX and Lockhart/Series S are MUCH more pronounced and that increases the threat in bad production allocation for one device over the other while leaving demand unfulfilled, risking a loss of sales.

In other words, if a PS5 buyer wants a PS5 and the disc unit isn't there, they probably won't be too fussed to buy the Digital Edition. Same experience, just no physical media. Plus Sony could always just release a disc drive reader in the future if Digital Edition owners want physical media without needing to purchase the disc PS5. If a XSX buyer wants a XSX but it isn't there, they're presented with a Series S and might choose to pass since there are very specific things one could want out of XSX that Lockhart/Series S can't provide. The risk is, if there's a PS5 around instead, that would-be XSX buyer could very well just pick up a PS5 instead and never look back. In the case both XSX and both PS5 versions are gone, they could just opt to wait until one of them is back in stock, and still refuse buying a Lockhart/Series S.

That's the genuine concern here. Let's face it, the vast majority of launch day and launch-period console buyers are hardcore/core gamers who aren't necessarily price-conscious, if the value is there. XSX presents the value. PS5 presents the value. Lockhart/Series S might present value to more casual types, but they don't make up the vast majority of console buyers within the first year or so. I get the feeling MS is trying to replicate the Wii here, where that's the only home console in history which appealed to casuals right off the bat, in addition to hardcore/core gamers.

But, the Wii did this by providing a playing experience NO OTHER CONSOLE had up to that point. The concept was just so novel and fresh that it drove adoption to the platform immediately. As far as we know, the Lockhart/Series S is just a weaker XSX in the same traditional console form factor, so where is the hook for casual gamers besides a cheap price? Where is the hook for hardcore/core gamers, for that matter, who we already know aren't as price-conscious at the start of a new generation?

Is it GamePass? Maybe. But GamePass will also be on XSX, and it's already on the XBO S and X to boot. The Wii had a unique hook that was exclusively its own. I get the feeling MS's hook with Lockhart/Series S is to push it as a subscription box to their "Netflix of gaming", i.e GamePass. The question is, will that be enough for casuals?

Personally I don't actually think so, but if they paired GamePass with a roll-in to other film/television subscription services like Netflix, Hulu, HBO MAX etc....that I actually CAN see being a big hook, but only if they could manage a way to subsidize the normal subscription cost for such services into a marginal cost on top of GamePass's fee. But, what streaming service would actually be willing to do this? That's something where you'd want your own streaming service to roll in to push, with your own vault of content. Oddly enough Sony's in a better position to do that than Microsoft.

So overall, I just don't see what besides being cheaper Lockhart/Series S brings to the equation. I'm looking at this in terms of what hook is there to incentivize casuals AND hardcore/core gamers the way the Wii did almost 15 years ago. Price alone was not the main reason the Wii did as well as it did. MS will have the hardcore/core-appealing 1st-party games for sure this time around, but those games will also be available for (and play better on) the XSX. Again, Nintendo (due to their vastly different architectures) had to develop unique software for the Wii and NDS, but that also made each platform appealing enough for many to buy both. I don't want this to go into the "exclusives" argument that keeps getting brought up repetitively, but unique offerings between multiple platform offerings can go a long way, we've already seen this over a decade ago.

So yeah, I really hope MS knows what they are doing with Lockhart/Series S; I still think going exclusively with XSX is the better business plan for short-and-long term. I don't want to see them squander their big chance before the generation kicks off, and so far they've been on-point with messaging and keeping the spotlight on the Xbox Series X. That's best not just for us but for Microsoft as well.
Very insightful post and an opinion I hadn't considered. Kudos to you.
 

Alphagear

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So Microsoft made an exceptional piece of hardware only to shaft it with this piece of shit?

Mark my words, this is only because the XSX is more expensive than the PS5.

If the XSX was the same price you wouldn't be seeing this.

Microsoft have gone high and low where as Sony has gone Mid.

Microsoft would have been better sticking to just the XSX and taking a loss.
 
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wolffy71

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So Microsoft made an exception piece of hardware only to shaft it with this piece of shit?

Mark my words, this is only because the XSX is more expensive than the PS5.

If the XSX was the same price you wouldn't be seeing this.

Microsoft have gone high and low where as Sony has gone Mid.

Microsoft would have been better sticking to just the XSX and taking a loss.
How would they even know what the ps5 was going to cost? When these things are planned they dont even know what each other is building.
 

Hayriko

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A diskless SKU with otherwise identical specs and a 1/3 the power console are not exactly the same proposition.
Yeah they are not the same but for sony to have a console thats a bit cheaper and which uses the same power as the disc version will help sony boost their sales. I know here in the Netherlands people can download almost unlimited
 

Victoria3D

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Jun 12, 2020
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Why do they even need this when they already have the One X? Why not just make One X the budget machine? This thing is weaker than a One X even. So dumb
 
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Dontero

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If they want a 1080p machine and a 4k machine the CPUs need to be really close to make sure that gameplay loops dont need to be compromised to make the game work.
The prediction: LH: 1080p SEX 4k
The reality : LH 720p SEX 1080p with some remasters from previous gen in 4k

Why do they even need this when they already have the One X? Why not just make One X the budget machine? This thing is weaker than a One X even. So dumb
Several reasons:
- cpu too slow
- GPU is severely outdated featurewise, it might have more TF but in actual use it will be slower.
- just by materials used and size it is much more expensive console.
 
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dvdvideo

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Honestly a lower spec, cheaper console aimed squarely at the casual masses either needs/wants a drive or a very cheap price. See the One S SAD below in the UK. It wouldn't even sell at £129.

I dont think the digital version of the xbox one had any issues selling here generally.

Last I checked weren't 85% plus of all games sold in digital form? Physical media is on its last generation......
 

thismeinteil

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How would they even know what the ps5 was going to cost? When these things are planned they dont even know what each other is building.
Simple. They know they don't want to take much, if any, loss on HW, just like this gen. They know Sony will be willing to subsidize their HW more, like they always have.
 

Clandsiota

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Why would they bring this to market???
This console can play all nextgen games at 1080p with the same quality as XSX/PS5, but instead of 4K it’s in 1080p only.
Let’s say you only have a 1080p TV and don’t habe a 4K TV.
why wouldn’t you just go with the XSS? Due to corona etc.A lot of people simply don’t have the money for a new 4K tv and a high end console.
For those people the XSS could be great.
For devs it will be easy, simple reduce the resolution. Everything else can stay the same.
 
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Balducci30

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People keep saying it can play everything on XSX but at 1080p? That’s the only compromise being made here? So all that crazy boost in power for the xsx is legit just to get games in 4K? That’s all those extra teraflops and what not actually accomplish? Skeptical
 

-Arcadia-

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People keep saying it can play everything on XSX but at 1080p? That’s the only compromise being made here? So all that crazy boost in power for the xsx is legit just to get games in 4K? That’s all those extra teraflops and what not actually accomplish? Skeptical
Yeah, hypothetically, I would imagine quite a few things being dialed down as well.
 

longdi

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Slower CPU and less RAM?!? Very weird as the thought was “just” a bit less ram as it targets 1080p and a bit slower GPU for the same reason but no CPU speed differential.
Warren came and clarify the cpu is same, as expected
Ram is less as like what happens when you choose say, a 6series vs a 8series gpu.
I predict it targets 1080p at $299, sure you lose resolution in pixels, texels and RT, but next gen game design will not be affected.

At that srp, it gives tons of next gen value!
So Lockhart is turning out to be an ace in the hole. We need to drop the 'tradition' mindset. Things change and refreshing. :messenger_smiling_with_eyes:
 
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dvdvideo

Report me for SonyGAF. SonyBots, fanboys > 04/27
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Yeah, hypothetically, I would imagine quite a few things being dialed down as well.
Except that based on what we know so far, that's not actually true. With the same ssd, ram speed, ray tracing, graphics core, and processor, it should in fact be very similar but a lower resolution.
 
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Balducci30

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Except that based on what we know so far, that's not actually true. With the same ssd, ram speed, ray tracing, graphics core, and processor, it should in fact be very similar but a lower resolution.
so what the hell is the point in the teraflops thing everybody was talking about? It’s just to make games 4K? Does this mean every game has to be 4K on series x? Because what if you design something like the last of us part 2 and compromise frame rate and resolution to get the best graphics out of the hardware - what would that look like on xss?
 

Pimpbaa

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Resolution isn't the only thing that will have to be dialed back, texture resolution will have to be too. All that extra ram on the XSX isn't just for a 4k frame buffer.
 

-Arcadia-

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Except that based on what we know so far, that's not actually true. With the same ssd, ram speed, ray tracing, graphics core, and processor, it should in fact be very similar but a lower resolution.
I don't think anyone outside of heavily-NDA'd developers know that.

When you're going from 12 Teraflops to 4, there's probably a good chance that more than just resolution will see a cut.
 

Balducci30

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The beauty of consoles is optimization. I’m totally cool with naughty dog compromising resolution and frame rate in favor of crazy graphics - I actually prefer they do that. From what it sounds like in order for this to even work every game on series x would at least have to be 4K to be played on this series s deal - which I could care less about 4k - Id rather they drop the resolution on the series x for some games to add more quality in other areas.
 

HerjansEagleFeeder

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I'd totally settle for a 1080/60 SKU despite having a 4K TV if it wasn't for the lack of an UHD drive. I need it for my movies (more important than games to me).
 

Tulipanzo

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Jason Schreier is not a real source.
He is pretty much THE most reputable source in games journalism.
Still, if you don't like him you can hop over to Resetera and Twitter to see actual devs say they don't like it and think it's hard to optimize for.

So odd devs don't like XSX but we removed everything that makes it good
 

Tulipanzo

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It will have far better performance across most/all of the board. 2 gens of improved GPU architecture, features and efficiency gains plus a CPU that won't hold it back.
While CPU is much improved, RAM amount and GPU are worse, meaning it can't run X1X Enhanced games.
 

Marlenus

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The prediction: LH: 1080p SEX 4k
The reality : LH 720p SEX 1080p with some remasters from previous gen in 4k
1080p with ML based upscaling to 4k ala DLSS 2.0 with RT is a pretty awesome prospect and the best of both worlds.

In any event 12Tflops should be enough to maintain 4k throughout the gen just like the ps4 maintained 1080p in most games this gen. LH, based on rumoured specs, should be fine to maintain 1080p for the gen with the same or very close settings to series x.
 

Panajev2001a

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Warren came and clarify the cpu is same, as expected
Ram is less as like what happens when you choose say, a 6series vs a 8series gpu.
I predict it targets 1080p at $299, sure you lose resolution in pixels, texels and RT, but next gen game design will not be affected.

At that srp, it gives tons of next gen value!
So Lockhart is turning out to be an ace in the hole. We need to drop the 'tradition' mindset. Things change and refreshing. :messenger_smiling_with_eyes:
Sure... it is a mindset thing, luddites vs progressives huh-huh... keep telling yourself that ;).
 

pasterpl

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Re. The ram difference;

With that out of the way, what graphics settings use up the most RAM?

In truth, pretty much every setting will take up a certain amount of VRAM, but currently, the most demanding one is by far the resolution.

Increasing the rendering resolution from 1080p to 1440p noticeably increases VRAM usage, and 4K obviously ramps it up even further.

based on this, 4TF 1080p machine with similar fidelity should be okay to handle next gen games. Probably we will see some effects scaled down as well but it shouldn’t be too demanding on developers. Think about pc games and graphic settings where you can toggle things like draw distance, particles, RT and other effects. Game design will not require 2 separate work streams.
 
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ZehDon

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So Microsoft made an exceptional piece of hardware only to shaft it with this piece of shit?

Mark my words, this is only because the XSX is more expensive than the PS5.

If the XSX was the same price you wouldn't be seeing this.

Microsoft have gone high and low where as Sony has gone Mid.

Microsoft would have been better sticking to just the XSX and taking a loss.
Not really. Sony releasing a digital-only version of the same console? That's most likely because the base PS5 is very expensive - they're offering the same product targeted to the same demographic with a slight change to give themselves the ability to lower the price to undercut their competitor. Offering two versions of the exact same hardware at launch is something you do unless there's a reason for people to not buy one of them. I'm expecting the base PS5 is be very expensive - USD$599 or more. Sony are attempting to outpace PC hardware - that's going to cost them enormously.

Lockheart isn't targeting the same demographic as the Series X, which is the key difference in approaches here. The Series X is a 4k60 machine for the hardcore. Lockheart is a 1080p30 machine for the casual. What Microsoft are trying to do is lower the barrier of entry to front-load the generation - instead of waiting for the mid-gen "Slim" revision to get the cost down and target the casual market, and reap the explosion in sales that follows, they're targeting it now at the beginning. The Series X will likely be USD$499, and Lockheart will likely be USD$199, or lower if its digital only. At those prices, Lockheart will fly off the shelves.
 
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Kenpachii

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Damn. Well, I really don't understand MS' approach here, then. They're planning on having a system that plays the same games, but can only load into RAM just a bit more than half the assets of the other.


Would they really release a console in 2020 that doesn't really do 4K? We're talking nearly /2 RAM here. They'd need to go back to 1080p to really save on RAM.

Between this & Series X we're actually pretty close to the same difference in RAM & TF between a Switch & Base PS4.
It depends on how games are builded, if games are going to be memory starved and textures are already on 1080p format just to safe memory footprint on series x for example that base box will struggle hard to run it. If however we see that the focus on 4k or even 8k textures are going to be a thing u won't really have much issue's fitting it in there.

Switch ram is completely different from the ram used in lockhart and not even remotely comparable.

Still i do think they should have gone for the same ram amount with that box, but if they really wanna go cheap then i could see why.
 
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Tulipanzo

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This console can play all nextgen games at 1080p with the same quality as XSX/PS5, but instead of 4K it’s in 1080p only.
Let’s say you only have a 1080p TV and don’t habe a 4K TV.
why wouldn’t you just go with the XSS? Due to corona etc.A lot of people simply don’t have the money for a new 4K tv and a high end console.
For those people the XSS could be great.
For devs it will be easy, simple reduce the resolution. Everything else can stay the same.
Lots of assumptions there:
- It might do 1080p, but if UE5 and Minecraft RT are an indication, it will go lower than that
- Are people with just a 1080p TV really in the market for a next-gen console, at or near launch? Especially with no exclusives made for it?
- Are people on 1080p TVs really only buying 1080p machines? I know plenty of Pro/X users on HD screens
- In some regards, the X1X outperforms it, and will likely be cheaper and play the same games
- Devs still need to do extensive optimization for it, which is time and cost intensive on all projects; anything but "easy"
- Devs also heavily dislike it, and MS hasn't shown any confidence in the project
 

MiyazakiHatesKojima

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Warren came and clarify the cpu is same, as expected
Ram is less as like what happens when you choose say, a 6series vs a 8series gpu.
I predict it targets 1080p at $299, sure you lose resolution in pixels, texels and RT, but next gen game design will not be affected.

At that srp, it gives tons of next gen value!
So Lockhart is turning out to be an ace in the hole. We need to drop the 'tradition' mindset. Things change and refreshing. :messenger_smiling_with_eyes:
 
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Tulipanzo

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It's not real, it's fake.
But if it is real, it's great.
But if it's not great, it's easy for developers.
But if developers hate it, then it's cheap.
But if it's not cheap, then it doesn't matter because MS will cancel it.
But if they won't cancel it, it's fine because the XSX has more TFs.
 

MiyazakiHatesKojima

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It's not real, it's fake.
But if it is real, it's great.
But if it's not great, it's easy for developers.
But if developers hate it, then it's cheap.
But if it's not cheap, then it doesn't matter because MS will cancel it.
But if they won't cancel it, it's fine because the XSX has more TFs.
Shakespeare would cry in joy if he ever read this.
 

geordiemp

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This console can play all nextgen games at 1080p with the same quality as XSX/PS5, but instead of 4K it’s in 1080p only.
Let’s say you only have a 1080p TV and don’t habe a 4K TV.
why wouldn’t you just go with the XSS? Due to corona etc.A lot of people simply don’t have the money for a new 4K tv and a high end console.
For those people the XSS could be great.
For devs it will be easy, simple reduce the resolution. Everything else can stay the same.
Because if you had watched the UE5 demo, that was 1440p. 1440p and very high assset quality is fine, upscaled to 4k and DF could not measure it.

What would lockart do, 720p uscaled to 1080p ? Who knows....

For standard 4k games on XSX, lockart would be fine at 1080p, but every game will not be like this for next 7 years..

Also given a 1080 TV or monitor, a game rendered at 1440 or 4K downsampled to 1080p will look much better than native 1080p.
 
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HelloKittenz

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Why would they bring this to market???
Because people who aren't well off exist and giving them options is actually pretty smart and a good thing.
Even people who are Sony fanboys might be interested in one for the sake of exclusives which could potetinally get them hooked and get them to buy the big console later.
Even if they don't it's still money.
 
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