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Rumor The Verge: Xbox Series S (7.5GB usable RAM, 4TF GPU, Up: Same CPU)

Magik85

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It's been mentioned, but certain tech will likely push next-gen below 4K (which is fine with reconstruction), but would push the Lockhart sub-1080p.

It would also require extensive optimization due to its far reduced RAM, and worse CPU, which means results could be very inconsistent (devs reportedly dislike it). That reduced RAM also means it can't play old-gen games at X1X levels.
Depends how much below 4K.
If its 1440p then yeah. But lockhard should still do FHD on games that are 1800p on SeX.
And i highly doubt there are gonna be manu games below thay res, given the resolutions ONE X is allready hitting.
I also dont think less amount of RAM is gonna be big issue.
Alot of RAM in SeX is gonna be used on 4K textures which obviously wont be used in 1080p console.
 

Tulipanzo

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what consistent reports are you referring to?
The ones that have followed it since it was announced.


One big advantage consoles have over PCs is that their closed boxes, so you know that if something is optimized on your devkit, it works on all system. The Lockhart, being much worse, adds a lot of complications and specific optimization, on top of that required for XSX.

For example, to account for less RAM, assets have to be reworked, something that UE5 promised wouldn't really be necessary on next-gen platforms.
 
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Tulipanzo

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Depends how much below 4K.
If its 1440p then yeah. But lockhard should still do FHD on games that are 1800p on SeX.
And i highly doubt there are gonna be manu games below thay res, given the resolutions ONE X is allready hitting.
I also dont think less amount of RAM is gonna be big issue.
Alot of RAM in SeX is gonna be used on 4K textures which obviously wont be used in 1080p console.
Well, I'm glad you don't think RAM will be an issue, but that is still extra optimization required on top of everything else. Next-gen consoles were promising no need for LODs and fast access to memory, so that's a whole extra layer to be worked on for Lockhart alone.

Plus, the UE5 tech demo pushes it sub-1080p, the Minecraft RT one pushes it below 720p. It's rather dire.
 

dvdvideo

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Lots of assumptions there:
- It might do 1080p, but if UE5 and Minecraft RT are an indication, it will go lower than that
- Are people with just a 1080p TV really in the market for a next-gen console, at or near launch? Especially with no exclusives made for it?
- Are people on 1080p TVs really only buying 1080p machines? I know plenty of Pro/X users on HD screens
- In some regards, the X1X outperforms it, and will likely be cheaper and play the same games
- Devs still need to do extensive optimization for it, which is time and cost intensive on all projects; anything but "easy"
- Devs also heavily dislike it, and MS hasn't shown any confidence in the project
[/
so what the hell is the point in the teraflops thing everybody was talking about? It’s just to make games 4K? Does this mean every game has to be 4K on series x? Because what if you design something like the last of us part 2 and compromise frame rate and resolution to get the best graphics out of the hardware - what would that look like on xss?
I would say yes, 4k for the most part, at 60fps. If you have a large 4k tv, this does make a big difference in terms of visual fidelity. But let's say for the bedroom, where one has an older or smaller TV, that advantage starts to disappear as the TV is too small or older with 1080p resolution.

As far as frane rate goes its sort of equal for both.....most will target 60fps but both could settle at 30fps for some games ....
 
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NullZ3r0

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People keep saying it can play everything on XSX but at 1080p? That’s the only compromise being made here? So all that crazy boost in power for the xsx is legit just to get games in 4K? That’s all those extra teraflops and what not actually accomplish? Skeptical
Once again, the biggest leap this Gen is not GPU but CPU and NVME storage where we see double digit multipliers in performance increases.
 

Magik85

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Well, I'm glad you don't think RAM will be an issue, but that is still extra optimization required on top of everything else.
Like i said, lack of 4K textures on Lockhart should make up deficit in RAM.
I look at it this way - comparing ONE S to X it has:
- noticable slower CPU (1.75 vs 2.3ghz)
- not only less RAM but also slower one (8GB DDR3 vs 12 GB DDR5)
- more than 4 times slower GPU (1.3 TF vs 6 TF).
And yet it still plays the same games.
The difference between Series X and Series S will be less significant, thats why im not really worried :)
 

Panajev2001a

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Like i said, lack of 4K textures on Lockhart should make up deficit in RAM.
I look at it this way - comparing ONE S to X it has:
- noticable slower CPU (1.75 vs 2.3ghz)
- not only less RAM but also slower one (8GB DDR3 vs 12 GB DDR5)
- more than 4 times slower GPU (1.3 TF vs 6 TF).
And yet it still plays the same games.
The difference between Series X and Series S will be less significant, thats why im not really worried :)
Do you think you got the most out of X1X and PS4 Pro? I do not think we have, but they were just stop gap consoles... problem is different if it is a brand new gen.
 

VAVA Mk2

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Is the Verge a reliable source on gaming leaks? Remember their video on how (NOT) to build a gaming PC? 🤣😂
 

loktaiextatus

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Like i said, lack of 4K textures on Lockhart should make up deficit in RAM.
I look at it this way - comparing ONE S to X it has:
- noticable slower CPU (1.75 vs 2.3ghz)
- not only less RAM but also slower one (8GB DDR3 vs 12 GB DDR5)
- more than 4 times slower GPU (1.3 TF vs 6 TF).
And yet it still plays the same games.
The difference between Series X and Series S will be less significant, thats why im not really worried :)
So basically what you just said is... a machine that is 4x the GPU power and has a faster CPU and more memory
is relegated to running the same games as the much weaker machines, without any new software being
developed for it... but a machine that in raw TF performance is weaker is going to run Next gen software...
 

Balducci30

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Like i said, lack of 4K textures on Lockhart should make up deficit in RAM.
I look at it this way - comparing ONE S to X it has:
- noticable slower CPU (1.75 vs 2.3ghz)
- not only less RAM but also slower one (8GB DDR3 vs 12 GB DDR5)
- more than 4 times slower GPU (1.3 TF vs 6 TF).
And yet it still plays the same games.
The difference between Series X and Series S will be less significant, thats why im not really worried :)
I’m confused were there any games that were specifically designed to take advantage of the pro and Xbox one x? In ways other than resolution? The question remains - designing a game for specific fixed hardware without having to think of anything else allows you to do certain things doesn’t it? Isn’t that the whole point of console graphics. I’m sure the one x and pro could produce better graphics than we have seen if the OG’s were out of the picture.
 
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Balducci30

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Once again, the biggest leap this Gen is not GPU but CPU and NVME storage where we see double digit multipliers in performance increases.
This doesn’t answer what I’ve been asking the rest of the thread - If a game is specifically taking advantage of everything in a systems power at the expense of frame rate and resolution, etc (such as Last of Us) - how the hell will it work on something like the series S
 
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Balducci30

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High frame rates at high resolutions👍
Well that’s fucking lame. I ain’t paying 2-300 bucks more for shit IDGAF about. I’ll just buy Sony - I’m sure they’ll make a game that takes advantage of their hardware and may come at the expense of resolution and frame rate but no one will care because it looks amazing (ie the whole last cycle of ps4 games)
 
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lastmessiah

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Well that’s fucking lame. I ain’t paying 2-300 bucks more for shit IDGAF about. I’ll just buy Sony - I’m sure they’ll make a game that takes advantage of their hardware and may come at the expense of resolution and frame rate but no one will care because it looks amazing (ie the whole last cycle of ps4 games)
If you say so man, if you say so.
 

Balducci30

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It makes sense. You don't care and you will buy Sony. What do you want me to say to that?
I don’t care that the only benefit would be resolution and frame rate - which I don’t know a single person in my friends group who thinks about either of those things when playing a game on TV for a bit - it’s disappointing. I wanted this Xbox to actually do more than that but if it’s going to be held back from reaching it’s true full potential because it has to meet a certain resolution or frame rate to work in any capacity on the series s that kinda sucks does it not?
 

cyber69

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As a Software Developer myself, this amount of comments seems so odd.

Also I'm a bit hungover but isn't this code saying:

If consoleType is Dante, push the Anaconda profile into the object array... Why would you do this? Surely you're be wanting to push the Lockhart profile?

The code after the else if makes more sense:

If consoleType is Scorpio, push Scorpio into the Object array.
To me that reads the Dante profile is the next gen console as a series. Within the first If statement, it does a check for this. I’m assuming all these profiles are lumped in to the same if statement for redundancy reasons. Anaconda would refer to Series X. Looks to be missing a profile referring to Lockhart if this console does exist.
 
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Is anyone actually saying 4tf will outperform 10tf? That's ridiculous if so. But seems to me this is an exaggerated argument.
They built it off the theory that Lockhart will use something similar to DLSS to outperform the PS5. Although to be honest I've only seen one person say that.

Edit: I just remembered that they might be talking about Direct ML.
 
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lastmessiah

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I don’t care that the only benefit would be resolution and frame rate - which I don’t know a single person in my friends group who thinks about either of those things when playing a game on TV for a bit - it’s disappointing. I wanted this Xbox to actually do more than that but if it’s going to be held back from reaching it’s true full potential because it has to meet a certain resolution or frame rate to work in any capacity on the series s that kinda sucks does it not?
Nah, it won’t be held back because that’s not how game engines work.
 
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Does it show frame rate for RX580 @ 1440?

I'll be getting the Series X for myself and my wife, and then the Series S for the kids.

I'm hoping the Series S at least shoots for 1440 and 60fps.
The RX 580 is a 1080p/60fps GPU. At current-gen console settings it can do 1440p, and even 4K/30fps as seen on X1X, but at Ultra settings in games designed for 4K on the XSX, the power of the system is designed for 1080p.
 

lastmessiah

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Well at what point would an engine be held back then? So could you technically play every PS4 game on ps3 or every Xbox one game on Xbox 360?
You couldn’t play a PS4 game on a PS3 because the systems have different architectures. In theory you could run an XB1 game on a 360 at lower frame rate and resolution.
 

NullZ3r0

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This doesn’t answer what I’ve been asking the rest of the thread - If a game is specifically taking advantage of everything in a systems power at the expense of frame rate and resolution, etc (such as Last of Us) - how the hell will it work on something like the series S
How does TLOU2 run on PS4 vs. PS4 Pro?
 

NT80

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I don’t care that the only benefit would be resolution and frame rate - which I don’t know a single person in my friends group who thinks about either of those things when playing a game on TV for a bit - it’s disappointing. I wanted this Xbox to actually do more than that but if it’s going to be held back from reaching it’s true full potential because it has to meet a certain resolution or frame rate to work in any capacity on the series s that kinda sucks does it not?
Although I want better framerates I don't care anything like as much about the resolution. I'd prefer XSX/PS5 to be targeting 1440p-1800p most of the time and not waste their resources on 4K. 4K should be about as common as 1080p during the 360/PS3 gen. I certainly don't want most of the games to be 4K versions of Lockhart games.
 

dxdt

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You need it for designing games. This is the difference in memory usage in games based on resolution alone, one is 2560x1080 and the other on 5120x2160 (basicaly UW versions of 1080p and 4K).



GTA 5 - ~2.1GB difference



MGS5 - ~2.3GB difference



NFSH - 3.7GB difference



Ryse - ~2GB difference



ROTTR - ~2GB difference (with HIGH textures, VH takes ~7GB on 2560x1080!)

Framebuffer alone is usually not jumping more than 3GB. RAM is unified on consoles so if devs want to use low resolution with some fancy image reconstruction (like DLSS) to have more main memory available they are fucked on the spot by XSS that cuts RAM by 6GB, they will have to use PS3 quality textures here :messenger_tears_of_joy:
MS is betting on VRS, SFS, and Mesh Shader to reduce memory consumption in addition to the much faster NVMe SSD. At least that's what they found by adding in hardware to X1X APU to monitor for textures loaded versus textures being actually used.
 
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dxdt

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Well, I'm glad you don't think RAM will be an issue, but that is still extra optimization required on top of everything else. Next-gen consoles were promising no need for LODs and fast access to memory, so that's a whole extra layer to be worked on for Lockhart alone.

Plus, the UE5 tech demo pushes it sub-1080p, the Minecraft RT one pushes it below 720p. It's rather dire.
LOD is still there just more automatic. I thought UE5 is highly scalable engine intended for streaming assets. I suspect the lower textures and 1080p should be taken care of by the engine.
 

NullZ3r0

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1080p on base PS4 and 1440p on PRO reaching 4k via checkerboard rendering. Base PS4 have more stable FPS in some case in comparison with PRO, but both are 30 fps cap.
The base isn't holding back the Pro here. The Pro is gimped by the same Jaguar CPU in the base model. GPU isn't the issue here.

Lockhart will have the same CPU so games running on it will run at a lower res and with less effects. PC games have been doing this since forever.
 

12Dannu123

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That sounds kinda smart, Sony can easily counter that by making PS Now available on every TV/cellphone they sell going forward and having your existing game purchased in PS5/PS4 accessible on it. Sony still having some cards to show, the festival hasn't finished yet. I can see another strike one week after the xbox event by Santa Monica and other studios.
Sony outside of Consoles is irrelevant. Sony smartphones and TV division has significantly declined over the years. To counter Microsoft, Sony will need to partner with other device makers, so far they haven't done so.

So far Sony has offered no response to XCloud being part of Instagram, Facebook Gaming or the partnership with Samsung.
 
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Kumomeme

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I'd like if this turned out to be a handheld/tablet.
this..massive plot twist if lockhart is handheld....or imagine sony release similliar low performance of ps5 but in form of psvita2
but doubt that since there probably no soc is capable such feat of performance and powerconsumption for handheld size device.

with all the argument of power and budget wise is enough for next gen or not, but i can see this stuff of is something suit nintendo ..who know assuming they make a home version of Switch console or Switch 2..they no need to match sony and ms's consoles performance.
 
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Tulipanzo

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Do you mean that single post from Jason Schreier?
I mean the reporting from Jason Schreier and others in talk with devs, and actual devs talking abut it, which has accompanied every step of the Lockhart, from its inception, to cancellation, to revival.
I'd be more than willling to disbelief him specifically, but
1) He has proven beyond a doubt he has talks with devs
2) Devs have mirrored the same sentiment
3) The console it's a butchered XSX, so it makes sense devs wouldn't like extra optimization work
4) None of you have brought up why this piece of info would be in any way untrustworthy

Ultimately, were MS to reveal the thing, we could squash these doubts. As things stand, they've shown near 0 confidence in Lockhart.


Like i said, lack of 4K textures on Lockhart should make up deficit in RAM.
I look at it this way - comparing ONE S to X it has:
- noticable slower CPU (1.75 vs 2.3ghz)
- not only less RAM but also slower one (8GB DDR3 vs 12 GB DDR5)
- more than 4 times slower GPU (1.3 TF vs 6 TF).
And yet it still plays the same games.
The difference between Series X and Series S will be less significant, thats why im not really worried :)
RAM amount is something that will require a bunch of optimization, given it's halved amount. If its setup it's as weird as XSX, with a unified pool of two speeds, it'll be even worse. As I mentioned, this is all work that UE5 was supposed to eliminate, but will still need to happen not avoid pushing the Lockhart sub-HD.

There are several problems when comparing X1S/X1X and Lockhart/XSX.
The X1X is an improved version of OG, unlike Lockhart which is a butchered version of XSX. Developers were targeting X1. then adding improvements to the X1X version, not chopping down bits from the mainline console.

Your argument also falls apart when you acknowledge how poorly modern games often run on X1S (not to mention OG X1). This is due to the little optimization time it is afforded.
Lockhart, a system MS still refuses to market at all, launching against much more performant options, will suffer the same issues.


LOD is still there just more automatic. I thought UE5 is highly scalable engine intended for streaming assets. I suspect the lower textures and 1080p should be taken care of by the engine.
"Automatic LOD", or virtualized geometry, requires a lot of GPU power which the Lockhart won't have. As I explained, the UE5 demo would scale to 1.47M5 resolution ("similar to A4 paper format "). Since that can't happen, a traditional and lenghtier LOD approach will still need to happen, on top of the work for XSX.

A lot of extra work that UE5 would eliminate on PS5/XSX, would still need to happen on Lockhart, which is one of the many reasons you don't launch inferior versions of existing hardware.
 
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Jigga117

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Makes no sense why anyone wants a handheld from MS when that ship has sailed for anyone not Nintendo, android and Apple phones. MS is offering Xcloud for all those same devices and then some.
 

X-Fighter

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I mean the reporting from Jason Schreier and others in talk with devs, and actual devs talking abut it, which has accompanied every step of the Lockhart, from its inception, to cancellation, to revival.
I'd be more than willling to disbelief him specifically, but
1) He has proven beyond a doubt he has talks with devs
2) Devs have mirrored the same sentiment
3) The console it's a butchered XSX, so it makes sense devs wouldn't like extra optimization work
4) None of you have brought up why this piece of info would be in any way untrustworthy

Ultimately, were MS to reveal the thing, we could squash these doubts. As things stand, they've shown near 0 confidence in Lockhart.
I'm not saying you should disbelief Schreier, I'm saying there aren't that many reports on devs disliking Lockhart, so I'm not so sure we should automatically belief that this is an industry wide disliking.
 

Tulipanzo

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I'm not saying you should disbelief Schreier, I'm saying there aren't that many reports on devs disliking Lockhart, so I'm not so sure we should automatically belief that this is an industry wide disliking.
So you're providing nothing at all to the discussion, except disbelieving one of the sources for no reason. How insightful
 
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Shmunter

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I'm not saying you should disbelief Schreier, I'm saying there aren't that many reports on devs disliking Lockhart, so I'm not so sure we should automatically belief that this is an industry wide disliking.
Perhaps, but it doesn't take much reasoning that a dev rolling out 1 game, but needing to cater it to an additional system is added work. No one likes added work.

On PC that my fly where the user takes responsibility, on a locked system asset optimization, lods, rendering approaches and resulting QA testing work will be required = time & money. You can wind back and balance the time & money by essentially doing a less than optimal slap job vs it were all invested into the one target. No different to current mid-gen refreshes.

One could argue the benefit in business terms, instead of selling 10M XsX consoles, this approach may results in 5M XsX + 10M XsL = 15M total platform sales and bigger market for the platform.

But on the flipside, the path of least resistance may result in more 3rd party Sony exclusives due to 1 sku instead of 3. This also hinges on market-share and the bean-counters counting beans.
 
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X-Fighter

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So you're providing nothing at all to the discussion, except disbelieving one of the sources for no reason. How insightful
Not what I said at all, I literally said that I don't disbelieve the report... I'm saying Schreier reports it like this for clicks, and that you are exaggerating. Because we barely have any info on Lockhart, and barely any devs that commented that they disliked it. Lockhart will make sure that your game will be available for more people. Since most developers are also developing their games for PC when developing it for Xbox, there really isn't much difference with optimizing it from XSX to Lockhart as from high-end PC to low-end.

Perhaps, but it doesn't take much reasoning that a dev rolling out 1 game, but needing to cater it to an additional system is added work. No one likes added work.

On PC that my fly where the user takes responsibility, on a locked system asset optimization, lods, rendering approaches and resulting QA testing work will be required = time & money. You can wind back and balance the time & money by essentially doing a less than optimal slap job vs it were all invested into the one target. No different to current mid-gen refreshes.

One could argue the benefit in business terms, instead of selling 10M XsX consoles, this approach may results in 5M XsX + 10M XsL = 15M total platform sales and bigger market for the platform.

But on the flipside, the path of least resistance may result in more 3rd party Sony exclusives due to 1 sku instead of 3. This also hinges on market-share and the bean-counters counting beans.
I agree, it's definitely extra work. But there's a difference between devs saying they really dislike the console and developers understanding the reason for the console and taking on the extra work since the barrier of entry will be lower for people which means more people will play your games. Tulipanzo Tulipanzo makes it sound as if Lockhart is hated industry wide and shouldn't exist.
 
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Tulipanzo

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Not what I said at all, I literally said that I don't disbelieve the report... I'm saying Schreier reports it like this for clicks, and that you are exaggerating. Because we barely have any info on Lockhart, and barely any devs that commented that they disliked it. Lockhart will make sure that your game will be available for more people. Since most developers are also developing their games for PC when developing it for Xbox, there really isn't much difference with optimizing it from XSX to Lockhart as from high-end PC to low-end.
Again, you don't disbelieve the report, yet assume it's been written for clicks. Your assumption here is false, because he made those comments on Era and Twitter. In the article he wrote devs complained MS had been "uncommunicative".
You seem to be basing your opinion of Schreier on what people post here, rather than having read his articles.
Once again, outside of Schreier, plenty of devs and industry sources have complained about Lockhart.

The optimization required on PC, while helpful, exists on top of Lockhart specific optimization, or risk your game running poorly.
This is especially problematic, as the device is almost guaranteed to sell worse (more expensive SKUs sell better at launch), while also simply not being powerful enough for MS's supposed target of 1440p 60fps.

It's entirely believable that developers would voice these concerns, and given MS's little confidence in the project, and how unprecedented this move is, it's fair to be worried.
 
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ZywyPL

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It will all go down to the market adoption, if Lockhart would make half/majority of the market, then that's what all the publishers would have to aim for, to please the majority of the customers, thet's the reality, and the devs would have nothing to say. Remember it's the publishers who pull the strings, devs just execute the orders.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Sony outside of Consoles is irrelevant. Sony smartphones and TV division has significantly declined over the years. To counter Microsoft, Sony will need to partner with other device makers, so far they haven't done so.

So far Sony has offered no response to XCloud being part of Instagram, Facebook Gaming or the partnership with Samsung.
You need to read more, my friend. I don't want to link you with everything, but start with these keywords: sony imaging sensors + sony pictures entertainment + sony cinealta and netflix + sony imageworks partners + sony reference tv calibration and hollywoord monitors.

That's for starter, then search for annual revenue and total debt of both companies and see which one is currently sinking.