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Rumor The Verge: Xbox Series S (7.5GB usable RAM, 4TF GPU, Up: Same CPU)

~Fake

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The base isn't holding back the Pro here. The Pro is gimped by the same Jaguar CPU in the base model. GPU isn't the issue here.

Lockhart will have the same CPU so games running on it will run at a lower res and with less effects. PC games have been doing this since forever.
I said that? o0
 

NullZ3r0

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Jun 8, 2017
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Xbox One S and X are virtually all sold out at MS and they're not coming back in stock because MS has likely stopped production. Lockhart is the replacement for One S/X.

Microsoft has two pricing tiers: $499 and $299

Right now they're occupied by the One X and One S. One X is the high-end 4K current gen gaming machine. One S is the low-end 1080p current gen gaming machine. These are now dead for all intents and purposes.

They will be replaced by new machines with the Xbox Series architecture. This architecture is defined by these three components:

  • Zen 2 CPU
  • RDNA 2 GPU
  • Velocity Architecture NVME technology

Series X-Plays games designed for the Xbox Series architecture. Cost: $499
Series S-(Name doesn't make sense, but it's consistent with the current gen tiers) Plays games designed for the Xbox Series architecture at up to 1440p. Cost: $299

This route is much better than what Sony is doing. Here's why:

3rd party devs are not going to ignore the PS4's 100+ million install base. Sony may have given itself this luxury, but devs need to eat and will need to gimp games to run on the PS4. Thus the amount of cross gen stuff shown at Sony's conference. Devs will have to support two completely different architectures.

Microsoft on the other hand is creating a lower priced console with the same architecture as the Series X that will be priced to get One S/X users to upgrade as quickly as possible. This will ensure that developers are able to target their games to take advantage of a single architecture. No, current One X, or One S owners won't go away overnight, but Lockhart will be priced or MS will heavily incentivize them to upgrade as quickly as possible.

Sony won't have a comparable machine to compete at this price-point. Sure, they could price the discless PS5 at $299 and rain on MS parade, but then they would have to price the disc version at $399. Does Sony have the capital to absorb this humungous hit? Can they subsidize this with income from other services?

With Xcloud being basically another Azure subscription, Phil Spencer has the attention of Satya Nadella. Whatever it cost to get Azure subscriptions, Nadella will write that check. Even if it's $2 billion to make $5 billion in ARR down the line.

Lockhart makes sense if you understand that it's just a replacement for the One X/S to occupy that mainstream pricepoint with something on the same architecture as the Series X. This way devs don't have to gimp game design and can simply scale GPU performance like they do on PC.
 
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Stooky

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Oct 18, 2017
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Xbox One S and X are virtually all sold out at MS and they're not coming back in stock because MS has likely stopped production. Lockhart is the replacement for One S/X.

Microsoft has two pricing tiers: $499 and $299

Right now they're occupied by the One X and One S. One X is the high-end 4K current gen gaming machine. One S is the low-end 1080p current gen gaming machine. These are now dead for all intents and purposes.

They will be replaced by new machines with the Xbox Series architecture. This architecture is defined by these three components:

  • Zen 2 CPU
  • RDNA 2 GPU
  • Velocity Architecture NVME technology

Series X-Plays games designed for the Xbox Series architecture. Cost: $499
Series S-(Name doesn't make sense, but it's consistent with the current gen tiers) Plays games designed for the Xbox Series architecture at up to 1440p. Cost: $299

This route is much better than what Sony is doing. Here's why:

3rd party devs are not going to ignore the PS4's 100+ million install base. Sony may have given itself this luxury, but devs need to eat and will need to gimp games to run on the PS4. Thus the amount of cross gen stuff shown at Sony's conference. Devs will have to support two completely different architectures.

Microsoft on the other hand is creating a lower priced console with the same architecture as the Series X that will be priced to get One S/X users to upgrade as quickly as possible. This will ensure that developers are able to target their games to take advantage of a single architecture. No, current One X, or One S owners won't go away overnight, but Lockhart will be priced or MS will heavily incentivize them to upgrade as quickly as possible.

Sony won't have a comparable machine to compete at this price-point. Sure, they could price the discless PS5 at $299 and rain on MS parade, but then they would have to price the disc version at $399. Does Sony have the capital to absorb this humungous hit? Can they subsidize this with income from other services?

With Xcloud being basically another Azure subscription, Phil Spencer has the attention of Satya Nadella. Whatever it cost to get Azure subscriptions, Nadella will write that check. Even if it's $2 billion to make $5 billion in ARR down the line.

Lockhart makes sense if you understand that it's just a replacement for the One X/S to occupy that mainstream pricepoint with something on the same architecture as the Series X. This way devs don't have to gimp game design and can simply scale GPU performance like they do on PC.
This only works if Xss is $299
 

Thirty7ven

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Microsoft on the other hand is creating a lower priced console with the same architecture as the Series X that will be priced to get One S/X users to upgrade as quickly as possible. This will ensure that developers are able to target their games to take advantage of a single architecture. No, current One X, or One S owners won't go away overnight, but Lockhart will be priced or MS will heavily incentivize them to upgrade as quickly as possible.
This makes no sense whatsoever. Devs will stop making cross gen games for X1 because of XSS while on PS side they are stuck with cross gen because price? What? It’s such a far fetched theory.

Sony won't have a comparable machine to compete at this price-point. Sure, they could price the discless PS5 at $299 and rain on MS parade, but then they would have to price the disc version at $399. Does Sony have the capital to absorb this humungous hit? Can they subsidize this with income from other services?
There’s the other side of the coin. Sony doesn’t need to compete with Lockhart dollar for dollar.

With Xcloud being basically another Azure subscription, Phil Spencer has the attention of Satya Nadella. Whatever it cost to get Azure subscriptions, Nadella will write that check. Even if it's $2 billion to make $5 billion in ARR down the line.
The MS is rich card. Boring.
 

Memorabilia

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but what is the big deal with the 12 teraflops then anyway? We get games in 4K? Literally that’s it? That sounds... lame
We could extrapolate this argument to a point of absurdity, like why don't we all just buy a Switch instead (Yes I own one of those too 😉). The point of 12 vs 10 is in some sense just a marketing bullet point, but on the other hand there is a real tangible benefit for those who want/appreciate a true 4k visual more often vs one which might need to utilize checkerboarding. Is it the end all, be all? No. But you can bet if the situation were reversed and Sony had the console with 52 CUs and 12tf vs a somewhat underpowered Xbox they wouldn't be playing up the SSD i/o instead. 😉
 

NickFire

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Mar 12, 2014
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This route is much better than what Sony is doing. Here's why:

3rd party devs are not going to ignore the PS4's 100+ million install base. Sony may have given itself this luxury, but devs need to eat and will need to gimp games to run on the PS4. Thus the amount of cross gen stuff shown at Sony's conference. Devs will have to support two completely different architectures.

Microsoft on the other hand is creating a lower priced console with the same architecture as the Series X that will be priced to get One S/X users to upgrade as quickly as possible. This will ensure that developers are able to target their games to take advantage of a single architecture. No, current One X, or One S owners won't go away overnight, but Lockhart will be priced or MS will heavily incentivize them to upgrade as quickly as possible.
You lost me when I got to this section because the reach is longer than Inspector Gadget could pull off. It reads as Sony's strategy is bad because most Xbox One owners will be willing, and able (personally and with respect to supply chain availability) to almost immediately upgrade to a Series S. I credit the admission that current owners won't go away overnight, but the entire argument rests on the notion that they will upgrade in a rapid enough fashion to make Sony bad for having two units to develop for, and 3rd parties won't have to plan for 4 Xbox consoles for very long since they will all have an S really quickly.
 

Nikana

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Jan 26, 2016
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Apparently some developers are no longer worried.



"One of the misconceptions about Lockhart is that it is going to hold back next-generation games. It’s a valid concern and the idea sprung up about a year ago when details were murky about the path ahead for the next generation consoles. Specifically, developers were not fully versed in how development (or profiling as it is now called) was going to actually work on the hardware which resulted in myself, and others, hearing mixed messaging from those briefed early on the plans.

As we have learned more during the past year, those concerns have faded as Microsoft has built a strategy of using the same base components across both devices (like Raytracing support and CPU specs) that should make it easier for developers to target the same visual fidelity for both consoles but at different resolutions. Meaning, the series X will be optimized for 4k gaming while the series S is optimized at 4TF for 1080P displays."
 
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KAL2006

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Thought of a idea.

What if Lockhart was a laptop.

Basically Lockhart size is small enough to be a laptop shape build. You buy a screen and battery separately. The screen simply attaches to Lockhart and can be folded down like a laptop.

It would be a hybrid device can played on the TV. Or buy the screen attachment.
 

pasterpl

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You need to read more, my friend. I don't want to link you with everything, but start with these keywords: sony imaging sensors + sony pictures entertainment + sony cinealta and netflix + sony imageworks partners + sony reference tv calibration and hollywoord monitors.

That's for starter, then search for annual revenue and total debt of both companies and see which one is currently sinking.
while at it, also check companies with most cash on hand
 

pasterpl

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The MS is rich card. Boring
it is not about ms rich card, it is about what is the big growth area for the company, it is cloud, it make sense for ms to push lots of products to subscription model (eg. Office 365) and customers to the cloud (azure). Thats what probably is the long term strategy for ms as a whole.
 

soulbait

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I know a lot of people are concerned Lockhart holding generations back, but as long as the CPU is the same, I do not see it really doing that.

One thing I do think people are overlooking though is xCloud. I could see people buying Lockhart and buying games on it. Then once xCloud becomes more viable, you could actually do 4K games via xCloud streaming. So your less expensive Lockhart 1080p machine could now indeed do full 4k (with streaming video compression of course) on the Lockhart.

If Lockhart is real, I can actually see myself buying one down the road along with the series X as a secondary system for my other room, especially if I don't upgrade to a 4K tv there. But even if I do go to 4K, xCloud brings in the possibility (I am one of the lucky ones who has access to fiber gigabit internet, so I would have the bandwidth for it).

Now of course all of this is speculation. Hopefully we will find out more soon.
 

martino

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it is not about ms rich card, it is about what is the big growth area for the company, it is cloud, it make sense for ms to push lots of products to subscription model (eg. Office 365) and customers to the cloud (azure). Thats what probably is the long term strategy for ms as a whole.
Not only MS lot of software publishers are also going this road lately (and it's nearly done where i work)
 
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Balducci30

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Mar 11, 2020
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Apparently some developers are no longer worried.



"One of the misconceptions about Lockhart is that it is going to hold back next-generation games. It’s a valid concern and the idea sprung up about a year ago when details were murky about the path ahead for the next generation consoles. Specifically, developers were not fully versed in how development (or profiling as it is now called) was going to actually work on the hardware which resulted in myself, and others, hearing mixed messaging from those briefed early on the plans.

As we have learned more during the past year, those concerns have faded as Microsoft has built a strategy of using the same base components across both devices (like Raytracing support and CPU specs) that should make it easier for developers to target the same visual fidelity for both consoles but at different resolutions. Meaning, the series X will be optimized for 4k gaming while the series S is optimized at 4TF for 1080P displays."
so basically series x wants to use its power for higher resolution games, thats it’s main focus. Something I personally couldnt care less about. Looks like I’ll be buying the series s then and in reality the ps5 is going to be pushing graphics forward next gen instead of Xbox even though it has a more powerful console. It’ll be like pc essentially. The bar will be where ps5 sets it. I swear I’ve watched Xbox Systematically seriously destroy its brand ever since the Xbox one reveal - first it was the online only shit, then getting rid of couch co op in Halo, then having no new exclusive ips worth a damn and now this cross gen, 60fps 4K target bullshit that really only hardcore gamers actually care about. Xbox was my first console. It was great. But they fucked it up.
 

SlimySnake

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Feb 5, 2013
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Apparently some developers are no longer worried.



"One of the misconceptions about Lockhart is that it is going to hold back next-generation games. It’s a valid concern and the idea sprung up about a year ago when details were murky about the path ahead for the next generation consoles. Specifically, developers were not fully versed in how development (or profiling as it is now called) was going to actually work on the hardware which resulted in myself, and others, hearing mixed messaging from those briefed early on the plans.

As we have learned more during the past year, those concerns have faded as Microsoft has built a strategy of using the same base components across both devices (like Raytracing support and CPU specs) that should make it easier for developers to target the same visual fidelity for both consoles but at different resolutions. Meaning, the series X will be optimized for 4k gaming while the series S is optimized at 4TF for 1080P displays."
Brad Sams and Tom Warren seem to only have sources inside MS. those concerns were coming from third parties. maybe DF and Jason S. can reach out and find out.
 

12Dannu123

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Sep 23, 2016
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You need to read more, my friend. I don't want to link you with everything, but start with these keywords: sony imaging sensors + sony pictures entertainment + sony cinealta and netflix + sony imageworks partners + sony reference tv calibration and hollywoord monitors.

That's for starter, then search for annual revenue and total debt of both companies and see which one is currently sinking.
So how does Imaging sensors, Sony picture entertainment bring in PSNow subscribers to 'easily counter' MS?

Many of the things you mentioned are not D2C. Like I say, in the D2C market outside of consoles, Sony doesn't have much relevance.
 

NullZ3r0

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This makes no sense whatsoever. Devs will stop making cross gen games for X1 because of XSS while on PS side they are stuck with cross gen because price? What? It’s such a far fetched theory.
I already addressed this. I qualified my post with Lockhart being cheap enough to be an impulse buy and drive enough units. This way devs find it more palatable to stop developing on the Xbox One platform.

There’s the other side of the coin. Sony doesn’t need to compete with Lockhart dollar for dollar.
This is a valid point and might be true. But my point is that Lockhart is important strategically.

The MS is rich card. Boring.
The truth often is boring. My point is much deeper than the "Warchest" argument. MS has the services in place to generate the revenue stream needed to subsidize the console. Thats not even counting game revenue.
 

cyber69

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Sep 21, 2018
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I already addressed this. I qualified my post with Lockhart being cheap enough to be an impulse buy and drive enough units. This way devs find it more palatable to stop developing on the Xbox One platform.



This is a valid point and might be true. But my point is that Lockhart is important strategically.



The truth often is boring. My point is much deeper than the "Warchest" argument. MS has the services in place to generate the revenue stream needed to subsidize the console. Thats not even counting game revenue.
Just because MS is rich. It doesn't mean the company heads affords a division an unlimited budget. They're a business first and foremost.
 

NullZ3r0

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Jun 8, 2017
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Brad Sams and Tom Warren seem to only have sources inside MS. those concerns were coming from third parties. maybe DF and Jason S. can reach out and find out.
This makes zero sense. Why would Microsoft be worried about their own hardware?
 

NullZ3r0

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Jun 8, 2017
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Just because MS is rich. It doesn't mean the company heads affords a division an unlimited budget. They're a business first and foremost.
This has nothing to do with budgets but that MS has another revenue stream to offset a loss leader. And its monthly recurring revenue at that.
 

X-Fighter

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Jan 10, 2020
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Apparently some developers are no longer worried.



"One of the misconceptions about Lockhart is that it is going to hold back next-generation games. It’s a valid concern and the idea sprung up about a year ago when details were murky about the path ahead for the next generation consoles. Specifically, developers were not fully versed in how development (or profiling as it is now called) was going to actually work on the hardware which resulted in myself, and others, hearing mixed messaging from those briefed early on the plans.

As we have learned more during the past year, those concerns have faded as Microsoft has built a strategy of using the same base components across both devices (like Raytracing support and CPU specs) that should make it easier for developers to target the same visual fidelity for both consoles but at different resolutions. Meaning, the series X will be optimized for 4k gaming while the series S is optimized at 4TF for 1080P displays."
Good to hear. Now the fear mongering of the people who said devs didn't like it can stop. If devs are behind it, it should be ok
 
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Zannrebel

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so basically series x wants to use its power for higher resolution games, thats it’s main focus. Something I personally couldnt care less about. Looks like I’ll be buying the series s then and in reality the ps5 is going to be pushing graphics forward next gen instead of Xbox even though it has a more powerful console. It’ll be like pc essentially. The bar will be where ps5 sets it. I swear I’ve watched Xbox Systematically seriously destroy its brand ever since the Xbox one reveal - first it was the online only shit, then getting rid of couch co op in Halo, then having no new exclusive ips worth a damn and now this cross gen, 60fps 4K target bullshit that really only hardcore gamers actually care about. Xbox was my first console. It was great. But they fucked it up.
You're in for a rude awakening if you dont think Microsoft wont be pushing the graphics envelope come July
 

Jigga117

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Aug 26, 2019
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so basically series x wants to use its power for higher resolution games, thats it’s main focus. Something I personally couldnt care less about. Looks like I’ll be buying the series s then and in reality the ps5 is going to be pushing graphics forward next gen instead of Xbox even though it has a more powerful console. It’ll be like pc essentially. The bar will be where ps5 sets it. I swear I’ve watched Xbox Systematically seriously destroy its brand ever since the Xbox one reveal - first it was the online only shit, then getting rid of couch co op in Halo, then having no new exclusive ips worth a damn and now this cross gen, 60fps 4K target bullshit that really only hardcore gamers actually care about. Xbox was my first console. It was great. But they fucked it up.
What in the no logic is this shit?
 

dvdvideo

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Makes no sense why anyone wants a handheld from MS when that ship has sailed for anyone not Nintendo, android and Apple phones. MS is offering Xcloud for all those same devices and then some.
What? So nintendo proves there is still a huge market for dedicated handhelds and you see this as no reason for a competitor to want a part of that market?

If Ms decides and manages by some miracle to cram lockheart into a switch-like handheld that also connects to a TV, and is $249-$299, it will be a massive hit.
 
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tasos

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I could be very interested in X series S if it has physical media support . I have a big library of games on discs and i want that bc .
 

Jigga117

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What? So nintendo proves there is still a huge market for dedicated handhelds and you see this as no reason for a competitor to want a part of that market?

If Ms decides and manages by some miracle to cram lockheart into a switch-like handheld that also connects to a TV, and is $249-$299, it will be a massive hit.
? Nintendo has been the only successful and consistent with this for 30 years and is the only one when it comes to handhelds. No I don’t see MS doing this and AGAIN Xcloud will probably end up on the Switch just like it will be a able for iPhones and androids and TVs and cable boxes. I think MS is doing from what I see points to anything with an handheld outside of Xcloud potentially and already accessing those devices

plus your really thinking they can cram that same tech that is in the Xbox series x and is basically clocked lower and you think all that can be crammed into a device like handheld like switch and it is only $300?

...........No
 
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mckmas8808

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May 24, 2005
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What "if" and $200-250
Why is this right under the headline?
The potent power of the Xbox Series S has leaked online and, if true, is sure to send shockwaves through Sony's PS5 HQ
Why would Lockhart send shockwaves through Sony's HQ, when even MS themselves don't want to talk about it?
 
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ZywyPL

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Why is this right under the headline?


Why would Lockhart send shockwaves through Sony's HQ, when even MS themselves don't want to talk about it?
I think it's about the pricing - with MS having two SKU from completely different price range, Sony would have to position the PS5 very carefully, because if it's let's say 50-100$ cheaper than XBX, but at the same time 100-150$ more expensive than XBS, then many people will simply go buy the cheapest one. Many will anyway, but Sony would have to create enough value proposition to lure some part of that crowd towards slightly more expensive PS5.
 

Nikana

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Why is this right under the headline?


Why would Lockhart send shockwaves through Sony's HQ, when even MS themselves don't want to talk about it?
This "Microsoft doesn't want to talk about it" is getting really tired and is a very dumb mindset.
 
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dvdvideo

Report me for SonyGAF. SonyBots, fanboys > 04/27
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? Nintendo has been the only successful and consistent with this for 30 years and is the only one when it comes to handhelds. No I don’t see MS doing this and AGAIN Xcloud will probably end up on the Switch just like it will be a able for iPhones and androids and TVs and cable boxes. I think MS is doing from what I see points to anything with an handheld outside of Xcloud potentially and already accessing those devices

plus your really thinking they can cram that same tech that is in the Xbox series x and is basically clocked lower and you think all that can be crammed into a device like handheld like switch and it is only $300?

...........No
I'll admit the harware side it would be some amazing work, but ms does have the resources to build something amazing.

Nintendo's ability to have success isnt magic to them, its been a collection of good software and hardware at the right time.
If Ms launched at a good price, with the entire xbox back catalog in its arsenal, along with support for new games, it would be a huge hit.

As to xcloud, it has some potential, but its still awkward and has battery life issues and needs tons of data, not truly portable.
 

Jigga117

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I'll admit the harware side it would be some amazing work, but ms does have the resources to build something amazing.

Nintendo's ability to have success isnt magic to them, its been a collection of good software and hardware at the right time.
If Ms launched at a good price, with the entire xbox back catalog in its arsenal, along with support for new games, it would be a huge hit.

As to xcloud, it has some potential, but its still awkward and has battery life issues and needs tons of data, not truly portable.
Which is why I don’t see a handheld happening. Plus proprietary storage cost what could the medium be? Or all digital if files are as big as games for consoles call of duty at 80GB is a problem. I look at all that and the idea of a handheld fizzles. The cost simply adds up to a non starter IMO.

as for the switch for as many that’s been sold I have not seen one person outside or it being out their house anywhere. I work for Comcast and I go in all these homes and apartments and see a switch sitting right next to the tv but never out the home anywhere.
 

Sycomunkee

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Why is this right under the headline?


Why would Lockhart send shockwaves through Sony's HQ, when even MS themselves don't want to talk about it?
There are plenty of people that wont care about resolution and even if they do, Direct ML will surely assist in making the image clearer at upscaled resolutions. That being said ~$250 for the cost of entry is palatable, probably more so than whatever the PS5 or XSX will cost.
 
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dvdvideo

Report me for SonyGAF. SonyBots, fanboys > 04/27
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Which is why I don’t see a handheld happening. Plus proprietary storage cost what could the medium be? Or all digital if files are as big as games for consoles call of duty at 80GB is a problem. I look at all that and the idea of a handheld fizzles. The cost simply adds up to a non starter IMO.

as for the switch for as many that’s been sold I have not seen one person outside or it being out their house anywhere. I work for Comcast and I go in all these homes and apartments and see a switch sitting right next to the tv but never out the home anywhere.
Most games aren't 80gb, and if they are including an 800gb ssd, its less of an issue than even switch that basically uses sd cards in the 128-256 range for most gamers. It might also have the same expansion slot the series x has.

Whether or not the switch leaves houses every day is irrelevant, its clear the promise of a handheld is what drive sales. Imagine switch sales had ot not been a handheld, it would have been a huge failure. Also, many, like in my house, use it in other rooms of the house, and sometimes on the TV, and on the occasional trip.
 

Jigga117

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Most games aren't 80gb, and if they are including an 800gb ssd, its less of an issue than even switch that basically uses sd cards in the 128-256 range for most gamers. It might also have the same expansion slot the series x has.

Whether or not the switch leaves houses every day is irrelevant, its clear the promise of a handheld is what drive sales. Imagine switch sales had ot not been a handheld, it would have been a huge failure. Also, many, like in my house, use it in other rooms of the house, and sometimes on the TV, and on the occasional trip.
Bottom line I am in the camp that doesn’t see any type of indication they would go with a handheld. Nothing I see fits this direction. Just my opinion.
 

dvdvideo

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Unfortunately, you are probably right!

Still like the idea of a regular lockheart....not every room needs a series x....