Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
So very pro consumer of you... spend $499+ for bragging rights gents... why do some Xbox fans troll their own camp far harder than the supposed Sony zealots?
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The Verge: Xbox Series S (7.5GB usable RAM, 4TF GPU, Up: Same CPU)
- Thread starter Thirty7ven
- Start date
- Rumor
So very pro consumer of you... spend $499+ for bragging rights gents... why do some Xbox fans troll their own camp far harder than the supposed Sony zealots?
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
It's not holding anything back. It's just lower resolution, so lower quality assets that developers already made for low-end PC versions of their games.
01011001
Banned
the only issue I see with the system if it's specs are like this is the RAM.
they need at least 12GB of ram to make sure One X enhanced titles can actually run on it.
if it can only run Xbox One games in base mode that would be a huge bummer. of course they would run much better than on base Xbox One but some games are locked to sub 1080p resolutions and 30fps modes where the One X versions offer way higher resolutions and/or 60fps, see Minecraft Dungeons for example, which indeed has both, a massively improved resolution and twice the framerate over the base version
they need at least 12GB of ram to make sure One X enhanced titles can actually run on it.
if it can only run Xbox One games in base mode that would be a huge bummer. of course they would run much better than on base Xbox One but some games are locked to sub 1080p resolutions and 30fps modes where the One X versions offer way higher resolutions and/or 60fps, see Minecraft Dungeons for example, which indeed has both, a massively improved resolution and twice the framerate over the base version
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Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
And resolution and framerates are the easiest things to scale, I can see XSX titles just being Lockhart titles in 4K which would be bad IMO
quickwhips
Member
They already revealed it but it was so small you didn't notice it next to the xbox fridge.What I'm most curious about is how the console would look because with those specs they can make it really small.
Think this small:
Shmunter
Member
That’s precisely what it will be, especially when the cheap sku eclipses the sales chart.
The only caveat that may save the situation is the existence of the PS5 elevating the design choices baseline.
SilentUser
Member
Not sure how I feel about it. Must wait to see better how this will work, but I honestly can't see yet how this is going to benefit the new generation. It feels like this will how down the gen somehow or screw the owners down the road if they decide to abbandon the support in favor of using XSX capacity to the max. Hopefully my fears will fade away really soon 
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Really looking forward to the price, $200 doesn't seem realistic, but $250 would still be amazing.
BigLee74
Member
Nah, I'll say it as I see it. Too many people are so transparent. If you feel it doesn't apply to you, then relax or put me on ignore.
llien
Member
Maybe it isn't that hard to just aim at faster model at 4k and let the little thing do it at 1080p.
4TF should be enough, as well as "only slightly" slower CPU.
DonkeyKong
Member
For this to work surely Lockhart has to run games identical to the X but just at a lower resolution (like a pc), it needs to be as easy for dev's to switch games to the Lockhart profile with minimum extra work. But how much cheaper would the lockhart be? GPU targeting 1080P , digital only, 4Gb less ram, so what are we talking $100-$150 , who knows..
Can't decide if Lockhart would be a good or bad thing yet without more details, not sure about it to be honest
Can't decide if Lockhart would be a good or bad thing yet without more details, not sure about it to be honest
Fake
Member
How do you know? Are you a dev?
Rolla
Banned
Gaf recently be like
XBOX: Here's a turd
Gamers: This turd stinks
XBOX Guys: The fragrance isn't repulsive, you're just a concern troll
Thirty7ven
Banned
At 249$ it’s so bought. Plug it to the upstairs TV(it’s 1080p), and get 3 years of Gamepass for 3,5€ a month. I can’t deny this value proposition, absolutely worth a purchase.
TigerKnee
Member
Actually, if Sony were doing the same thing, I would be doing the same as well which surely is NOT being concerned about games being held back. Your concern is unwarranted.
Kuranghi
Member
*blows raspberry*
Thats so bizarre to me, I can understand if people are attacking/harrassing you but when its just opinions about gaming stuff, wth?
Iif you are out with your own friends and one of their friends says things you disagree with do you stop responding to them and stick your fingers in your ears every time they speak? You need to hear things that challenge your perspective its how you grow as a person.
SaucyJack
Member
One X is a 4K console, and has 9 GB of usable ram for games. Lockhart outputting at quarter resolution could do with less than that, especially when Velocity Arch is helping conserve texture memory with sampler feedback and using high speed paged approach.
Machine with slightly lowered CPU clocks (similar to PS5 CPU clocks), 512GB SSD, 4+TF GPU, 10 GB RAM could be around $200-250 while still be able to give a great next gen experience at lower resolutions compared to XSX. And with DLSS 2.0 type upscaling, it could rival or even outperform PS5.
Remember:
So what you’re saying is that this will compete with the more than 2.5x more powerful PS5 which will be simultaneously be unable to overcome the 18% difference with Series X.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Either that or there is little care beyond ensuring the message gets seen and influences opinion (age of “influencers”)...
Knightak47
Neo Member
Lockhart to me seems like the new baseline for a PC to run Xbox series games. Minimum SSD and ability to utilise smart features like DLSS and VRS
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for having other things like better physics, more NPCs, better AI, when the game also has to run on Lockhart
Won't developers take the easier route and just increase the resolution and frames instead of having to design essentially two different games
this is not how it works. This would mean that basically almost every game out there will be limited by NINTENDO SWITCH. Lol
And keep in mind, that one the best looking games at the Sony event was a cross-gen game: Kena.
Game development nowadays is very scalable. They are basically like PCs now and with SSDs its easier than ever. its not like back then, when we had CELL etc. where developing a game was a nightmare.
Devs can easily get the best out of XSX and just scale down to XSS, its not that hard, since they have the same architecture. Lower Resolution and you are done.
Just look at Flight Simulator - the best looking nextgen we've seen so far. And it's coming to Xbox One.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Sounds good to me. How much?
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I just feel bad for devs saddled with supporting this. I mean we're looking at a situation where a first or second party Xbox dev potentially needs to support One S, One X, Series X, Lockhart, and Windows.
That's a shitload of work for a single ecosystem.
That's a shitload of work for a single ecosystem.
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Sony
Nintendo
Regarding the TF concerns, think about it this way.
Xbox One base is 1.2 TF and Xbox One X is 6TF. That 5 times increase in computational performance got 900p/30 base games to run at 4K/30 on One X with a little more graphics options (or 1080p 60).
And in reverse, it means that a 4K/30fps game on a 6TF machine is able to run on a 1.2TF machine if they reduce the native resolution to 1080p and slightly decrease the graphics options.
That is exactly what Series S is about. A cheaper box that will run Series X games on a lower native resolution with slighly lower graphics options. As the One S and One X have shown, this does not have to impact the game design.
What I'm personally more concerned about is the One S and One X. I see the 6TF One X as a much bigger bottleneck for next-gen then a 4TF Series S.
Xbox One base is 1.2 TF and Xbox One X is 6TF. That 5 times increase in computational performance got 900p/30 base games to run at 4K/30 on One X with a little more graphics options (or 1080p 60).
And in reverse, it means that a 4K/30fps game on a 6TF machine is able to run on a 1.2TF machine if they reduce the native resolution to 1080p and slightly decrease the graphics options.
That is exactly what Series S is about. A cheaper box that will run Series X games on a lower native resolution with slighly lower graphics options. As the One S and One X have shown, this does not have to impact the game design.
What I'm personally more concerned about is the One S and One X. I see the 6TF One X as a much bigger bottleneck for next-gen then a 4TF Series S.
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icerock
Member
Specs seem to be inline with what we’ve been hearing. The only difference seems to be memory going from 12GB to 10. Given DRAM prices, it makes sense. Relieved to hear the CPU is only getting a minor downclocking, no word on SSD but I’m assuming it’ll have same NVMe SSD as one in Series X.
For those complaining about baseline, keep in mind. MS and it’s studios launch everything in parallel with PC. So the devs already have to ensure the game is scalable. Now they just have minimum spec machine in form of this, and recommended in form of Series X.
This ain’t hitting $199 though, that’s just pipe dream. In fact it’ll do well to hit the $299 RRP.
For those complaining about baseline, keep in mind. MS and it’s studios launch everything in parallel with PC. So the devs already have to ensure the game is scalable. Now they just have minimum spec machine in form of this, and recommended in form of Series X.
This ain’t hitting $199 though, that’s just pipe dream. In fact it’ll do well to hit the $299 RRP.
joe_zazen
Member
not fake.
people need to face the fact that MS’ want a cheap console and the sxs exists only to mask that. Xss is the base/boat anchor for at least 7 years once they remove the current boat anchor in 2022.
MS is driven by money, not the love of games. I cant believe that people actually believed that last statement...useful idiots indeed.
mrBarrelNut
Member
If Lockhart has DLSS 2.0 equivalent tech, then yes. If not, then no.
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martino
Member
This a good example of omniscience wearing blue tinted glasses.
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Sony
Nintendo
That is actually a very good point. Haven't thought about that. Microsoft did commit to releasing first party titles on both PC as Xbox. And given that they have to built scalability options for PC, that automatically translates to specific configurations for One S, One X, Series S and Series X. Very interesing!
BigLee74
Member
I'm happy to listen to people who mean it. Alas, I've been round here long enough to know the intentions of a few.
But in the interest of discussion, do people seriously believe a company like Microsoft don't know what they're doing here? Are they going to put out a machine so gimped it will hold back games in such a way that will compromise their flagship product? This will very likely play the same games as the X and the PS5, at lower resolutions and slightly lower details. Which isn't going to matter for a lot of people, especially if a few hundred dollar pound euros cheaper!
We will know the exact compromises when they finally acknowledge this product and reveal specs.
Mistershine.
Banned
Doesn't the Xbox one X have sampler feedback built into it that reports texture usage back to Microsoft? Perhaps they've noticed that they can fit all games into 7.5gb.
Shmunter
Member
Resolution scaling and being done is the Problem.
In a Lockheart scenario a game needs to meet a certain quality between both skus. Something needs to give.
For example the freedom of designing a game targeting XsX for lower res as trade off for massive compute generated effects will not scale easily. When things get hard, they get ignored in the real world of time and money.
Kuranghi
Member
Your analogy only makes sense if the graphics fidelity doesn't change on next gen titles. Going by what you wrote, since we've seen XSX games are 4K@30, then XSS/X1X versions would be 1080p@30, what will the X1S versions run at? 540p30? If its 60 on XSX just change all the 30s to 60 in my example.
Thirty7ven
Banned
DLSS runs on the tensor cores. Direct ML is a standardized feature, incorporated in DX12, that on AMD cards will run on the CUs.
You're getting lost in nomenclatures. AI up-scaling on XSX is using RDNA2, and as far as reconstruction techniques go it will be one of many. Other devs might not use DirectMl and simply use their own version of A.I up-scaling. These are algorithms. In Nvidia's case it's a bit different because they have dedicated A.I processors.
Xbox doesn't have Nvidia Tensor cores.
Sony
Nintendo
My guess, if I were to make a PC analogy:
Xbox Series X:
4K @ Very High Settings @ 60FPS
Xbox Series S
1440p @ High @ 30FPS |
1080p @ med @ 60fps
Xbox One X
1080p @ Med @ 30FPS
Xbox One S
900p @ low @ 30fps
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
$299 was always their target price when this thing was first thought of.
Is $249 or even $199 possible?
I think its still $299 but if Sony eats a lot of cost and can drive the digital PS5 to $399 Lockhart may get shelved.
Is $249 or even $199 possible?
I think its still $299 but if Sony eats a lot of cost and can drive the digital PS5 to $399 Lockhart may get shelved.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
My Xbox has Tensor cores. I downloaded em.
Tulipanzo
Member
$299 and they're already taking a loss, only way I see it is if SeX is above $500.
Still, hopefully they just shelf it.
01011001
Banned
what do you think the new Assassin's Creed will run at on One S?
or Watch Dogs 3? or *insert every cross gen game here*
the One S will be supported for maybe a year after the next gen launches, and it would be supported anyways since that's how cross gen periods work.
lower the settings, lower the resolution to acceptable levels and lower the framerate from 60fps to 30fps if necessary.
Microsoft themselves are targeting 60fps for all their next gen titles, that's pretty much a given.
this also gives them a lot of room for downporting their games to Xbox One.
they now not only have the option to run the game at lower resolutions and settings but also half the framerate.
this is not only a gigantic reduction in GPU performance needed but also greatly reduces the needed CPU performance.
so porting a 4k60 Series X game to Xbox One should be absolutely no issue and at worst would mean a 900p30fps port.
Undisputedly better. This thing will have a custom silicon SSD, RDNA2 GPU, and a CPU upgrade that's actually kinda insane.
Also, all this "concern" in the thread about holding nextgen back is going to fizzle away when these fanboys realize Microsoft already said their games are designed with the Series X in mind. Lockhart is going to be the same concept that exists for PC today: when you play RDR2 on a Xbox One X and are awed on how amazing it looks and how much of a technical masterpiece it is, you don't care that it can also run on the base Xbox One. Nobody does. The people that would bring that up are concern trolls and they scatter like the wind when their FUD doesn't come to fruition.
Shmunter
Member
Many threads lambasting MS for their 1st party mandate. This did not however apply to 3rd parties. With Lockheart, it’s support alongside XsX will be enforced no doubt.
turtlepowa
Banned
Good enough for the casuals
Tulipanzo
Member
Plenty of current gen games have trouble running on an X1, and sometimes even a base PS4.
It is more than reasonable to believe the weaker of two SKUs might not get the optimization it needs, especially if it ends up selling worse, which it will near certainly do near launch.
It is also concerning how MS is refusing to admit it's real, and pushing the Lockhart reveal out of the way of their proper show in July.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That's not a good thing at all! What happens when a game is 1440p and 30 fps on XSX?