-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
The visual evidence to end the X360/PS3 battle once and for all.
- Thread starter Mrbob
- Start date
- Status
Speevy said:
MGS3 was very well recieved by pretty much everybody(won GOTG title in a GAF thread/poll, lawlz). What I said was in response to Pachinko's post where he not so subtly suggests that MGS4 could end being up a shitty game because he considers MGS2 to be and quote "a piece of shit".
So. Yes.
J2 Cool said:
And? A lot of things speak to the quality of this incredible series, but I'll be damned if I'd use that as one of them.
The issue was whether people were implying that the series sucks. No one was, no one is, and no one will. I don't need this forum to tell me that.
Virgin Wii
Banned
Just started reading this thread. All the people groaning on the first page about how this wasn't neccessary are flat out wrong. There were quite a bit of people quipping about how MGS4 makes the graphical abilities of the X360 look like shit. At the time, I was thinking but what about Gears of War?
Doc Holliday said:
No, he's unarguably wrong. First of all, animation does tax the hardware. We don't know if this sort of fluid animation will carry over into the gameplay - even though every Metal Gear game prior has consistently showed a high bar in this area - but that's irrelevant.
That was not the point he made.
Artistic style and animation goes hand in hand with graphics. Anyone who debates this, anyone who argues this, is an idiot. And I'm not even saying that to be insulting, it's because there's actually something wrong with you if you feel that it doesn't. It takes skills, of course. But it takes power, attention to detail and a host of other factors. And all of this contributes to the graphical showcase. Which is the whole point of this discussion. Because when somebody says "I think X game looks better than Y game", they're not just looking for how hi-res the textures are, or how many polygons a brick has. They're looking for details, for animation, for atmosphere, for geometry, for great little effects that bring the world to life.
No, his argument lacked logic.
He said he isn't sure if Metal Gear Solid 4 will look as good as the trailer.
Then he said Metal Gear Solid 2 was a shit game in terms of gameplay.
Then he said he hated the franchise.
But he didn't say that he thought MGS4 would suck, just that he was skeptical of the franchise because of part 2, and quite frankly, a lot of people prefer part 3 to part 2.
My point is that no one with a brain is saying that Kojima isn't an incredibly talented director.
He said he isn't sure if Metal Gear Solid 4 will look as good as the trailer.
Then he said Metal Gear Solid 2 was a shit game in terms of gameplay.
Then he said he hated the franchise.
But he didn't say that he thought MGS4 would suck, just that he was skeptical of the franchise because of part 2, and quite frankly, a lot of people prefer part 3 to part 2.
My point is that no one with a brain is saying that Kojima isn't an incredibly talented director.
Seems to me like a lot of people who were claiming the Xbox 360 hardware was dead on arrival don't like this thread.Doc Holliday said:
The animation in the build of GoW that CliffyB is showing the media in private looks a lot better than what GoW's animation used to look like.
http://www.gamespot.com/cgi/chkpt.p...fwar/169_gearsofwar_xbox360_tgs05_di_2_wm.zip
A lot of people here are saying the animation in GoW looks horrible, but I think they need to check out the latest build, which looks fine, and remember that they say in the interview the game is still running only on 1 core. So for the people talking about how important computational power is for animation, GoW has only tapped into 1/3 of the CPU's computational power so far.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Amirox, of course animation and artstyle for the basis of great graphics. What i'm saying is people are using animation/artstyle to determine system power. Smooth animation is not overly dependent on hardware because animations are baked on to rigs, they are not generated in real time like physics simulations.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
adding on to Amir0x
one thing that TGS this year taught a lot of people : Screen shots are very poor indicator for the quality of a games graphics.
The PS2/Xbox shots were all touched up for a start - now the X360/PS3 games aren't going to have quite the effect when they are ACTUALLY in game.
It's going to be alll about the movement, and the lighting and environment effects (exactly what MGS4 looked so awesome for - a lot of the stills don't look anywhere near as impressive as it does in motion , outside of snake himself IMO)
On the subject of GOW vs Snake , that's the exact difference between the two. In stills, GOW looks like a match for Snake, but when they move, GOW isn't as fluid (although at least its now in game)
anyways....
one thing that TGS this year taught a lot of people : Screen shots are very poor indicator for the quality of a games graphics.
The PS2/Xbox shots were all touched up for a start - now the X360/PS3 games aren't going to have quite the effect when they are ACTUALLY in game.
It's going to be alll about the movement, and the lighting and environment effects (exactly what MGS4 looked so awesome for - a lot of the stills don't look anywhere near as impressive as it does in motion , outside of snake himself IMO)
On the subject of GOW vs Snake , that's the exact difference between the two. In stills, GOW looks like a match for Snake, but when they move, GOW isn't as fluid (although at least its now in game)
anyways....
gofreak said:Oh lord.
I'll bite.
On a technical level, there are couple of things..I see hair on Snake's head and face. I see a form fitting body-suit on snake that exposes far more detail of his body vs the clunkier suit on the GoW dude that hides. The devil's in the detail.
And in motion..let's not go there (and it isn't just about character animation either).
I appreciate what you're trying to do, but this isn't the best vehicle
one is a game, and one is a trailer
First off, trailers tend to have lots of custom animation in them.
Second, that's got nothing to do with the power of the systems and lots to do with the quality of the animators.
Pseudo judo
Member
IAWTP. Logical, even handed and well said. What are you doing in this thread?DCharlie said:
TheInkyVoid
Member
---- said:
Please! You can't honestly believe that. It doesn't work like that.
If the GoW guys really are only using one of the cores, they suck and should go back to kiddie single threaded x86 hardware.
But, hey, can those guys make stuff look shiny or what?
---- said:
I don't want sound like a troll here, but I saw that video in the afternoon. Pretty much the first time I had seen GoW in motion(with the exception of 15sec clip I had seen around e3 time). I thought the animation seemed very, very "unfinished". When the guy rolls to the right it looks pretty bad. The transition between different motions or movements is pretty jarring too...
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Insertia said:
That is not true, if that were the case mgs3 would have made my ps2 explode. The cpu is just replaying a file, its not figuring anything hard. Its a ram issue, and we have plenty of that on both systems. What they can do with more power which someone else brought up is true muscle deformations, hair and cloth simulation...shit like that but from i what i can mgs4 doesnt or need to have those things. Can someone like faf clear this up? Ive never heard animator say we dont have enought to add such and such frames of animation. What we have had a progammer telling us we need to cut an animation down because it wont fit in ram or its too long for a cycle.
GoW is not on the same level technically. It's evident in stills, and it's even more evidence in motion. The things people are using as an excuse for why MGS4 looks better in motion are power issues. Lighting an outdoor scene was hard to get right before HDR. I'd guess MGS4 is using 64bit HDR in the trailer, which gives you a much bigger range to work with, and keeps you from getting things all washed out in a brightly-lit environment. The animation might be all hand-manipulated, or mo-cap, but if it's physics-based, then that's a power issue. The detail in the models is not an art issue, it's a power one. If GoW could pull it off, I'd no doubt they'd go with more intricate armor, and ditch the bandanas, among other things. You'd have more activity in the environment as well. You saw the particle effects on those explosions near the beginning? The constant dust and volumetric effects in the street scenes? That's a power issue.
If you can't see the difference in the screens or the vids, then you're fine. But I can see the difference as clear as day in both. The video brought the house down yesterday, and not just b/c it's Kojima and MGS. This isn't the most popular gaming series ever or anything, it just looked phenomenal. When we got the scans, people were questioning whether or not it was realtime, eventhough Kojima pre-empted all of this. When we got the first vids, some still doubted whether it was realtime. The reaction immediately following the release of the screens and vids dwarfed the reactions I've seen to GoW. It doesn't seem like there's even a debate as to which one looks better.
GoW looks incredible. But MGS4 looks more incredible. It's a noticeable difference big or small. I've been saying it all along. I don't know why it's necessary to prove the games will look similar. They won't. It's got nothing to do with art or presentation. The PS3 will simply have an advantage graphically. Isn't this what happens in every console generation? Even in the 16bit era, the SNES had a noticeable graphics advantage. Wasn't it already obvious when a crappy dev like Bandai was able to have some pretty nice graphics up and running in a short period of time? Playstations have lagged behind one console or another in power the last two gens. This is just the first time a Playstation gets to wear the power crown. Meh, seems pretty simple to me. PEACE.
If you can't see the difference in the screens or the vids, then you're fine. But I can see the difference as clear as day in both. The video brought the house down yesterday, and not just b/c it's Kojima and MGS. This isn't the most popular gaming series ever or anything, it just looked phenomenal. When we got the scans, people were questioning whether or not it was realtime, eventhough Kojima pre-empted all of this. When we got the first vids, some still doubted whether it was realtime. The reaction immediately following the release of the screens and vids dwarfed the reactions I've seen to GoW. It doesn't seem like there's even a debate as to which one looks better.
GoW looks incredible. But MGS4 looks more incredible. It's a noticeable difference big or small. I've been saying it all along. I don't know why it's necessary to prove the games will look similar. They won't. It's got nothing to do with art or presentation. The PS3 will simply have an advantage graphically. Isn't this what happens in every console generation? Even in the 16bit era, the SNES had a noticeable graphics advantage. Wasn't it already obvious when a crappy dev like Bandai was able to have some pretty nice graphics up and running in a short period of time? Playstations have lagged behind one console or another in power the last two gens. This is just the first time a Playstation gets to wear the power crown. Meh, seems pretty simple to me. PEACE.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
It's looking pretty choppy to me. It looks like halo back in e3 2001.
DCharlie said:totally agreed.
This is going to sound even trolling-ier (is that even a word) but it look like a game runs when you are running something on a low spec PC...
Hope they can smooth things out.
....but they are only using 1 core! wait till they have 3 cores running at the same time (and a few more months dev time). Maybe that would fix the jerky animation.. just doesn't have that smoothness down yet.
paging Cliffy B..
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Looked like 60 fps when they showed it on g4tv.
mashoutposse
Ante Up
I couldn't even find anything from GOW comparable to these...
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
dang
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I would love to see some wireframes of those models. Damn you konami!
V
Vennt
Unconfirmed Member
Oh man, Those pics leave me really impatient for the direct-feed 
The video I'd seen obviously wasn't white-bablanced properly,as the colour was fairly green/yellow tinged and I just thought Kojima and co had gone for a fairly monotone palette again - I trolled myself! :lol
The video I'd seen obviously wasn't white-bablanced properly,as the colour was fairly green/yellow tinged and I just thought Kojima and co had gone for a fairly monotone palette again - I trolled myself!
:lol
Holy crap.
Okay, let's ditch Gears of War for a second and go off on an illogical tangent.
Would it be fair to say, that in their current states, Metal Gear Solid 4 is like...a generation ahead of...*thinks of something* I-8?
Seriously though, man. There are two games I want to see on the next-gen systems, and those are Halo 3 and Splinter Cell. If Bungie and Ubisoft can't outdo this, no one can.
Okay, let's ditch Gears of War for a second and go off on an illogical tangent.
Would it be fair to say, that in their current states, Metal Gear Solid 4 is like...a generation ahead of...*thinks of something* I-8?
Seriously though, man. There are two games I want to see on the next-gen systems, and those are Halo 3 and Splinter Cell. If Bungie and Ubisoft can't outdo this, no one can.
SolidSnakex
Member
Insertia said:
I like how he's almost out of breath through most of the trailer but still thinks its a good idea to smoke.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
mashoutposse said:I couldn't even find anything from GOW comparable to these...
Incredible.
Looking at this, why are people saying GOW is pushing more effects? Watching the trailer and these pics you see a lot more effect usage on MGS4. The HDR shifts in lighting; the mass of constant particles blowing in the wind either from dust, smoke, and vents; all the selfshadowing;flying debri and newspapers; fires, various field of depth effects;heat wave effects; when zooming on his face it's not much a contest, little things like Snake detailed hair and mustachthe, creases in his face move according, sweat lining his face. Things like that was they were constantly happening in the trailer.
People are talking about normal mapping used on GOW that pushes it more on effects....but do people realize that MGS4 is likely using normal mapping it's just they don't go overboard on the specularity and keep it subtle, I mean there is a direct difference in the lighting that is hitting Snakes skin versus his suit.
The suit looks shinier as it looks to have a more reflective surface but Snakes face himself does not reflect light in the same manner as his suit which should absorb more light than his suit, looks like the subsurface light scattering similiar to the Alfred Molina PS3 head demo.
- Status