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The White House releases transcript of Trump call with Ukraine (OP Updated)

Thaedolus

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As is often the case with Trump, what he says and what he does/means are entirely separate things. Would it surprise me you could find one person willing to say that? No. Does everyone else around the deal know the score? Yes. Come on dude.

"Sources" say that they were, but the only actual evidence, the text messages, say otherwise.
lol
Those are the simple facts and timeline.
Facts from where? And like I said, some of you won't accept anything other than a memorandum of understanding of the "Quid Pro Quo Betwixt the US President and the Ukrainian President"....everyone involved knows what was happening. Your devotion to ignoring the impropriety/illegality doesn't erase that.
 
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Kittehkraken

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As is often the case with Trump, what he says and what he does/means are entirely separate things. Would it surprise me you could find one person willing to say that? No. Does everyone else around the deal know the score? Yes. Come on dude.
From a quote you JUST posted:

Envoys representing Mr. Trump sought to leverage the power of his office to prod Ukraine into opening investigations that would damage his Democratic opponents at home. They made clear to Ukrainian officials that the White House invitation their newly inaugurated president coveted depended on his commitment to the investigations.

And the senior American diplomat posted in Ukraine suspected it went even further than a trade of an Oval Office visit. He told colleagues that it appeared that unfreezing $391 million in American aid that Mr. Trump had blocked was contingent on the former Soviet republic following through on the politically charged investigations sought by the president and his personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, a conclusion sharply denied by another diplomat who said there were “no quid pro quo’s.”
Lets also not forget Ukraine themselves are on the no quid pro quo train.
 
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Thaedolus

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From a quote you JUST posted:

Lets also not forget Ukraine themselves are on the no quid pro quo train.
Again, denials aren't really convincing here when there are so many others that seem to know the score and are flat out talking about it. This point is even stupider considering most defenders of Trump and he himself have moved on to why this wasn't improper, not whether or not it happened. It seems to be accepted that it happened.
 
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infinitys_7th

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Again, denials aren't really convincing here when there are so many others that seem to know the score and are flat out talking about it. This point is even stupider considering most defenders of Trump and he himself have moved on to why this wasn't improper, not whether or not it happened. It seems to be accepted that it happened.
What "happened"? Quid pro quo? There is no evidence that happened. Trump asked them to investigate potential corruption with Biden? Yes, that happened.

And no shit there is disagreement on whether it was improper - it is not inherently improper. Investigations of opposing parties happen all the time. If it was inherently improper, Schiff and most of the others who perpetrated the Russia hoax would be in prison.
 
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KINGMOKU

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Again, denials aren't really convincing here when there are so many others that seem to know the score and are flat out talking about it. This point is even stupider considering most defenders of Trump and he himself have moved on to why this wasn't improper, not whether or not it happened. It seems to be accepted that it happened.
Not quite sure what your going on about. Trump, Ukraine, and the DOJ said no quid pro quo.

The transcript is out there.

Is this some form of argument?

What does "know the score" mean here? A wink wink nudge nudge thing? This is what your going with?

You stated illegality. Show me.
 

Thaedolus

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What "happened"? Quid pro quo? There is no evidence that happened. Trump asked them to investigate potential corruption with Biden? Yes, that happened.

And no shit there is disagreement on whether it was improper - it is not inherently improper. Investigations of opposing parties happen all the time. If it was inherently improper, Schiff and most of the others who perpetrated the Russia hoax would be in prison.
...I'm sure it's just a huge coincidence that Trump, Mr. Wheel and self-Deal himself, has this sudden urge to root out corruption in Ukraine and it has nothing to do with who the target is. I'm sure it's just a huge coincidence that, without evidence, Biden is getting wrapped up in all this. We must certainly give the great orange man the benefit of the doubt in all things and he was just trying to do the right thing here as well. Right. Just like with the Russian "hoax," he had no reason to lie about it (but he did) because there wasn't anything wrong or improper. And really it's the Democrats who are inherently evil in everything they're doing. Surely that's the case. We can just put this in a nice bucket of hoaxes against dear leader because reasons.

Not quite sure what your going on about. Trump, Ukraine, and the DOJ said no quid pro quo.

The transcript is out there.

Is this some form of argument?

What does "know the score" mean here? A wink wink nudge nudge thing? This is what your going with?

You stated illegality. Show me.
1) No full transcript exists. Don't lie.

2) ...and that's sort of beside the point, because besides the call, we have various accounts of other agents for the administration acting under the auspice of a quid pro quo.

This is a goddamn Republican Senator being cited here:

A top US diplomat told Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) that the Trump administration was blocking hundreds of millions of dollars in US military aid to Ukraine until the country agreed to launch investigations Trump was demanding, Johnson told the Wall Street Journal Friday.
Johnson said that the US ambassador to the European Union, Gordon Sondland, told him in late August that the administration was demanding Ukraine investigate “what happened in 2016,” and that if President Trump had “confidence” in the investigation, he’d “release the military spending.”
It’s been well documented by now that Trump tried to push Ukraine to launch investigations designed to serve his political needs — one into the origins of the FBI’s Russia investigation, and one into the Biden family.

You're all straining credulity to act like what clearly exists doesn't exist. Trump is a corrupt piece of shit willing to do anything to win. If you're all aboard with that shit and don't care, fine, just fucking own it and stop acting like you have any sort of moral high ground here.
 
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...I'm sure it's just a huge coincidence that Trump, Mr. Wheel and self-Deal himself, has this sudden urge to root out corruption in Ukraine and it has nothing to do with who the target is. I'm sure it's just a huge coincidence that, without evidence, Biden is getting wrapped up in all this. We must certainly give the great orange man the benefit of the doubt in all things and he was just trying to do the right thing here as well. Right. Just like with the Russian "hoax," he had no reason to lie about it (but he did) because there wasn't anything wrong or improper. And really it's the Democrats who are inherently evil in everything they're doing. Surely that's the case. We can just put this in a nice bucket of hoaxes against dear leader because reasons.



1) No full transcript exists. Don't lie.

2) ...and that's sort of beside the point, because besides the call, we have various accounts of other agents for the administration acting under the auspice of a quid pro quo.

This is a goddamn Republican Senator being cited here:




You're all straining credulity to act like what clearly exists doesn't exist. Trump is a corrupt piece of shit willing to do anything to win. If you're all aboard with that shit and don't care, fine, just fucking own it and stop acting like you have any sort of moral high ground here.
From what I can read of that article I don’t think it says what you want it to say. The first line reads like third party opinion.

I think we’ll need more than that to make the bold claims you are making.
 
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Thaedolus

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From what I can read of that article I don’t think it says what you want it to say. The first line reads like third party opinion.

I think we’ll need more than that to make the bold claims you are making.
Why? What could possibly give you reason to think there would be any aversion by Trump or his people to doing something illegal or improper here? It looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, according to people
involved, so it’s reasonable to conclude this is a fucking duck.
 
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Joe T.

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...I'm sure it's just a huge coincidence that Trump, Mr. Wheel and self-Deal himself, has this sudden urge to root out corruption in Ukraine and it has nothing to do with who the target is.
That line gives me the impression you've been avoiding right-leaning sources of news sources as it pertains to the Russian collusion investigation. Am I wrong? Genuinely interested.

Paul Manafort, his ties to Christopher Steele, Prosecutor General Yurii Lutsenko's relationship with the Obama-era embassy - they're all tied to Ukraine. Finding out whether the Russian collusion investigation was handled properly requires the country's cooperation. The anti-Trump crowd will scoff because they think that investigation was completely above board, even though many will admit the Steele Dossier raised giant red flags. "Look over here so you don't see what happened over there" is how the Dems have conducted themselves. Prime example of that on display this week, watch how a reporter asks Joe Biden about the conflict of interest and he angrily deflects by telling him to focus on Trump instead:


And really it's the Democrats who are inherently evil in everything they're doing. Surely that's the case. We can just put this in a nice bucket of hoaxes against dear leader because reasons.
Why are you so worked-

You're all straining credulity to act like what clearly exists doesn't exist. Trump is a corrupt piece of shit willing to do anything to win. If you're all aboard with that shit and don't care, fine, just fucking own it and stop acting like you have any sort of moral high ground here.
Oh.
 

Thaedolus

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That line gives me the impression you've been avoiding right-leaning sources of news sources as it pertains to the Russian collusion investigation. Am I wrong? Genuinely interested.

Paul Manafort, his ties to Christopher Steele, Prosecutor General Yurii Lutsenko's relationship with the Obama-era embassy - they're all tied to Ukraine. Finding out whether the Russian collusion investigation was handled properly requires the country's cooperation. The anti-Trump crowd will scoff because they think that investigation was completely above board, even though many will admit the Steele Dossier raised giant red flags. "Look over here so you don't see what happened over there" is how the Dems have conducted themselves. Prime example of that on display this week, watch how a reporter asks Joe Biden about the conflict of interest and he angrily deflects by telling him to focus on Trump instead:

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here. The Steele dossier was a piece of opposition research done by a private firm, started by the Jeb Bush campaign. How it was handled in the media and the veracity of what it contained are separate issues from the counterintelligence investigation that began when Trump campaign people were running their mouths about the Russians helping them out.

Why are you so worked-
Oh.
Am I wrong? There’s nothing of virtue to attribute to this man. Attribute everything he does to his pathological narcissistic personality disorder and everything he does makes perfect sense
 
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Thaedolus

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one of (the many) pitfalls of leftist ideology is naturally putting feeling and emotion above facts and logic.

opinions arent facts no matter how hard you poorly try to convince otherwise. Provide something concrete or take the loss, its getting sad.
It’s ideology in general that causes this kind of response. Yes, you see people wanting to believe their feelings are truth on the left. You see the same thing on the right when people won’t just admit what’s in plain sight. Look no further than this very thread. Trump has been verifiably lying about everything under the sun for years...look no further than his own words and contradictions, no opinions necessary. Yet he’s being held up as this paragon of virtue exposing the establishment or some other retarded shit here.

Everything he’s ever done shows he’s just in it for himself and is a slave to his ego, like all narcissists. But people are willing to defend the indefensible because they hitched their wagon to him. That’s not a left/right problem, it’s an ideology and cult of personality problem.
 

Joe T.

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I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here. The Steele dossier was a piece of opposition research done by a private firm, started by the Jeb Bush campaign. How it was handled in the media and the veracity of what it contained are separate issues from the counterintelligence investigation that began when Trump campaign people were running their mouths about the Russians helping them out.
You expressed doubt ("sudden urge") as to Trump's intentions to investigate corruption. Trump made it abundantly clear after the Mueller report landed that he would now be interested in finding out how that Russian investigation got off the ground, almost impossible to miss that story considering all the coverage given to it in the mainstream. We all knew this was coming and so did the Dems. They were prepared to use it against him.

Am I wrong? There’s nothing of virtue to attribute to this man. Attribute everything he does to his pathological narcissistic personality disorder and everything he does makes perfect sense
This goes back to my first question: do you exclusively get your news from left-wing sources? If I only watched mainstream news and avoided everything on the right side of the political spectrum I'd think Trump was an irredeemable racist, sexist, xenophobe that was destroying democracy, too. I don't, though, so I do see a very different Trump than most liberals do. Right-leaning sources show footage of him that never shows up on the left.
 
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KINGMOKU

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Just so I got it right;

There is nothing here but angry man yelling.

I figured with this much emotion, and this much anger there was some "smoking gun", you know, unlike the Russia ordeal.

Guess I figured wrong. Get back to me when you have some actual evidence of what is being accused. Otherwise, pissing in the wind as they say.
 

Thaedolus

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You expressed doubt ("sudden urge") as to Trump's intentions to investigate corruption. Trump made it abundantly clear after the Mueller report landed that he would now be interested in finding out how that Russian investigation got off the ground, almost impossible to miss that story considering all the coverage given to it in the mainstream. We all knew this was coming and so did the Dems. They were prepared to use it against him.
And that has exactly what to do with Hunter Biden and Ukraine? I mean, as asinine as it is to suggest that the origins of the Russian counterintelligence investigation were improper considering Don Jr. and Paul Manafort meeting with Russian spies in Trump Tower, and George Papadopoulos drunkenly running his mouth off about shit, what exactly is Trump trying to uncover here? I'm not sure why anyone would give Trump the benefit of the doubt in this situation. He's shown he's happy to accept help from foreign governments, even illegally. He's happy to encourage the release of illegally obtained materials for his own benefit. He's egged on Russian spy fronts like wikileaks. Do you really think he's making an honest effort to stem corruption? Do you really think the Russian investigation got off the ground improperly? Do you really think he gives a shit about any of that, other than trying to save face and make himself out like a victim?

This goes back to my first question: do you exclusively get your news from left-wing sources? If I only watched mainstream news and avoided everything on the right side of the political spectrum I'd think Trump was an irredeemable racist, sexist, xenophobe that was destroying democracy, too. I don't, though, so I do see a very different Trump than most liberals do. Right-leaning sources show footage of him that never shows up on the left.
I don't get my news from left-wing sources. I live in one of the reddest states in the country, work with plenty of conservatives, and come from a family of hardcore conservatism...I'm not in some liberal bubble. I'm pretty centrist , but besides the liberals I know, I know a ton of conservatives who fucking hate Trump because of who he is. I might be to the left of my dad and my brother on social issues and economic policies, but we all can recognize a fucking moron when we see one.
 
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KINGMOKU

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And that has exactly what to do with Hunter Biden and Ukraine? I mean, as asinine as it is to suggest that the origins of the Russian counterintelligence investigation were improper considering Don Jr. and Paul Manafort meeting with Russian spies in Trump Tower, and George Papadopoulos drunkenly running his mouth off about shit, what exactly is Trump trying to uncover here? I'm not sure why anyone would give Trump the benefit of the doubt in this situation. He's shown he's happy to accept help from foreign governments, even illegally. He's happy to encourage the release of illegally obtained materials for his own benefit. He's egged on Russian spy fronts like wikileaks. Do you really think he's making an honest effort to stem corruption? Do you really think the Russian investigation got off the ground improperly? Do you really think he gives a shit about any of that, other than trying to save face and make himself out like a victim?



I don't get my news from left-wing sources. I live in one of the reddest states in the country, work with plenty of conservatives, and come from a family of hardcore conservatism...I'm not in some liberal bubble. I'm pretty centrist , but besides the liberals I know, I know a ton of conservatives who fucking hate Trump because of who he is. I might be to the left of my dad and my brother on social issues and economic policies, but we all can recognize a fucking moron when we see one.
One thing I have not been able to understand since Trump won the election is the anger. This isn't just some flash in the pan type of anger, but a deep rooted hostility. This is strange to me seeing as how before he announced he was running, everyone loved the guy. Snoop was part of a roast with him, folks appeared on his show, he appeared in movies, and other peoples TV shows, and Democrats were just fine paling around with him, and taking his money. Nobody took him seriously at all when he announced either.

This isn't a fiction, this is a fact. Household name, and known for being wealthy. "Who do you think you are? Trump" and "you're fired" were popular colloquialisms everyone knew immediately.

Now look where we are, and how absurd it has gotten.

1.)Russian agent, possibly for years(look it up, this is honestly a thing I kid you not)

2.)Trying to destroy America.(again, what?)

3.)Absolute Racist. The worst kind(this one absolutely blows my mind when there is mountains of evidence to the contrary)

4.)Uses old Democratic talking points and is crucified for it(This is BIZZARE as hell to me)

5.)Stupid as hell. I mean probably below Forest Gump IQ.(again, mountains of evidence to the contrary, or he is without question, the luckiest son of a bitch to ever live)

I didn't vote for him as he was a gameshow host, and I couldn't bring myself to vote for him, and I absolutely loathed Clinton so for the first time in my life, I didn't vote.

So in my timeline, Trump went from fun loving billionaire, to an idiot hitler Overnight.

So my question to you is;

How is this possible, and do you think, even for a second, That perhaps this is mostly bullshit, and makes no damn sense? The past few years have driven me as far away as I have ever been from the Democratic party and I now feel I have to vote for Trump to course correct the absolute insanity that has become my former party.

None of this makes any damn sense to me whatsoever. I am now a former Democrat.
 

Thaedolus

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One thing I have not been able to understand since Trump won the election is the anger. This isn't just some flash in the pan type of anger, but a deep rooted hostility. This is strange to me seeing as how before he announced he was running, everyone loved the guy. Snoop was part of a roast with him, folks appeared on his show, he appeared in movies, and other peoples TV shows, and Democrats were just fine paling around with him, and taking his money. Nobody took him seriously at all when he announced either.

This isn't a fiction, this is a fact. Household name, and known for being wealthy. "Who do you think you are? Trump" and "you're fired" were popular colloquialisms everyone knew immediately.
I'll 100% admit I thought the dude was the GOP class clown and thought it was funny he was being taken seriously as a candidate. Where the amusement stops, though is when you realize what a deranged lunatic the man actually is, and that he actually holds sway with people and eventually took office with immense power. Yeah, it's all fun and games laughing at Bubbles the Monkey, until that dumb shit has the nuclear codes...

Now look where we are, and how absurd it has gotten.

1.)Russian agent, possibly for years(look it up, this is honestly a thing I kid you not)
No, but in bed with the Russians long enough to be beholden to them and know that they could expose him if they wanted. There's no simpler answer for his capitulation to them. This goes back to everything being done in service of his ego.

2.)Trying to destroy America.(again, what?)
I don't think he wants to destroy America, but I think he's too stupid to realize that what he's doing is setting us back.

3.)Absolute Racist. The worst kind(this one absolutely blows my mind when there is mountains of evidence to the contrary)
Nah, he's a racist. Go back through the 70's and 80's and just look at what he's said recently. Dude's absolutely racist.

4.)Uses old Democratic talking points and is crucified for it(This is BIZZARE as hell to me)
Not sure what you mean, but he used to be a Democrat. Like, when it was convenient for him in his social/business circles in NYC and such, he was all about that.

5.)Stupid as hell. I mean probably below Forest Gump IQ.(again, mountains of evidence to the contrary, or he is without question, the luckiest son of a bitch to ever live)
I'm not sure how stupid he is, he's certainly been on the decline when you compare interviews in the 80's to now, but he's not smart. Not in a book smart sense. He's only gifted in the narcissistic, manipulative sense, and was boosted by the hundreds of millions he got from daddy. As far as I've ever heard, the only thing he's ever done successfully is pretend to be smart on The Apprentice. Everything else he's done has turned to shit.

I didn't vote for him as he was a gameshow host, and I couldn't bring myself to vote for him, and I absolutely loathed Clinton so for the first time in my life, I didn't vote.

So in my timeline, Trump went from fun loving billionaire, to an idiot hitler Overnight.

So my question to you is;

How is this possible, and do you think, even for a second, That perhaps this is mostly bullshit, and makes no damn sense? The past few years have driven me as far away as I have ever been from the Democratic party and I now feel I have to vote for Trump to course correct the absolute insanity that has become my former party.

None of this makes any damn sense to me whatsoever. I am now a former Democrat.
I don't think this is mostly bullshit, I think I've seen a con man rise to the highest office in the world. That he does things nobody else would dare isn't a sign of cajones to me, it's a sign of how uniquely unfit he is. That he says the most off the wall shit isn't a sign of brilliance or courage, he's just riffing off what he thinks will score points with the people who'll buy his brand of bullshit. I've seen bullshitters like Trump in the business world. They're almost always laughed out of the room, or end up having brief stints in whatever job they manage to get themselves into...Trump is unique in that he was given an infinite amount of rope and has managed to convince about a third of voters that he can do no wrong. That's all he is. He's not smart, he's got no master plan, he's not noble by any stretch of the imagination...he's just good at manipulating people and bullying his way forward. That's about all there is to him.
 

Dev1lXYZ

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I'll 100% admit I thought the dude was the GOP class clown and thought it was funny he was being taken seriously as a candidate. Where the amusement stops, though is when you realize what a deranged lunatic the man actually is, and that he actually holds sway with people and eventually took office with immense power. Yeah, it's all fun and games laughing at Bubbles the Monkey, until that dumb shit has the nuclear codes...



No, but in bed with the Russians long enough to be beholden to them and know that they could expose him if they wanted. There's no simpler answer for his capitulation to them. This goes back to everything being done in service of his ego.



I don't think he wants to destroy America, but I think he's too stupid to realize that what he's doing is setting us back.



Nah, he's a racist. Go back through the 70's and 80's and just look at what he's said recently. Dude's absolutely racist.



Not sure what you mean, but he used to be a Democrat. Like, when it was convenient for him in his social/business circles in NYC and such, he was all about that.



I'm not sure how stupid he is, he's certainly been on the decline when you compare interviews in the 80's to now, but he's not smart. Not in a book smart sense. He's only gifted in the narcissistic, manipulative sense, and was boosted by the hundreds of millions he got from daddy. As far as I've ever heard, the only thing he's ever done successfully is pretend to be smart on The Apprentice. Everything else he's done has turned to shit.



I don't think this is mostly bullshit, I think I've seen a con man rise to the highest office in the world. That he does things nobody else would dare isn't a sign of cajones to me, it's a sign of how uniquely unfit he is. That he says the most off the wall shit isn't a sign of brilliance or courage, he's just riffing off what he thinks will score points with the people who'll buy his brand of bullshit. I've seen bullshitters like Trump in the business world. They're almost always laughed out of the room, or end up having brief stints in whatever job they manage to get themselves into...Trump is unique in that he was given an infinite amount of rope and has managed to convince about a third of voters that he can do no wrong. That's all he is. He's not smart, he's got no master plan, he's not noble by any stretch of the imagination...he's just good at manipulating people and bullying his way forward. That's about all there is to him.
You are blinded by your emotions and have underestimated your opponent.

Trump is on a whole other level of status than can be fathomed by most of society. He’s been there a long time. You don’t even live in the same reality that he does. When he says and does things he’s playing a game on his level. What you get is based on your spectrum of perception. It’s been filtered and approved.
 

Thaedolus

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You are blinded by your emotions and have underestimated your opponent.

Trump is on a whole other level of status than can be fathomed by most of society. He’s been there a long time. You don’t even live in the same reality that he does. When he says and does things he’s playing a game on his level. What you get is based on your spectrum of perception. It’s been filtered and approved.
That's a hilariously stupid take on the situation given how dumb the dude sounds whenever he opens his mouth. Anyone who's come out of his admin has had nothing but shit to talk about it and how it's run. It's a cutthroat, sycophantic organization run by a boss suffering from narcissistic personality disorder, and as someone who's seen a semblance of this up close in life, I have no doubt that's all it is. There's no depth to Trump, there's just Trump imagining what Trump is and fighting off anything that says otherwise.
 

oagboghi2

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Why? What could possibly give you reason to think there would be any aversion by Trump or his people to doing something illegal or improper here? It looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, according to people
involved, so it’s reasonable to conclude this is a fucking duck.
I love how this logic is never applied to Biden :pie_eyeroll:

No, but in bed with the Russians long enough to be beholden to them and know that they could expose him if they wanted. There's no simpler answer for his capitulation to them. This goes back to everything being done in service of his ego.
You are an idiot. The guy has killed russians
 
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hollams

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The real Ukraine Scandal exposed

If you got some time, this show is providing all public available information on the Ukraine scandal and connects the dots. Mind blowing.

I‘m speechless and thankful for this, documentary of the year for me. Please watch.
I just finished watching it and wow so many things that make you go, hmm, something fishy seems to have been going on in the Urkraine in 2016. How many billions of dollars of our tax money did we give to the Ukraine in 2016 only to be "lost"?
 

Joe T.

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And that has exactly what to do with Hunter Biden and Ukraine? I mean, as asinine as it is to suggest that the origins of the Russian counterintelligence investigation were improper considering Don Jr. and Paul Manafort meeting with Russian spies in Trump Tower, and George Papadopoulos drunkenly running his mouth off about shit, what exactly is Trump trying to uncover here?
Best to get that info straight from him:



You seem eager to brush the Russian investigation details under the rug while focusing on Biden. That's how most of the mainstream media is covering it, the same media outlets that convinced people Hillary was a sure winner in 2016, that Trump and his family members were going to get indicted, that he called white nationalists very fine people, that he's a racist xenophobe for wanting to finish what Clinton, Bush and Obama started... Could go on, but you see the point I'm making here. I'm in the habit of questioning everything.

I'm not sure why anyone would give Trump the benefit of the doubt in this situation. He's shown he's happy to accept help from foreign governments, even illegally. He's happy to encourage the release of illegally obtained materials for his own benefit. He's egged on Russian spy fronts like wikileaks. Do you really think he's making an honest effort to stem corruption? Do you really think the Russian investigation got off the ground improperly? Do you really think he gives a shit about any of that, other than trying to save face and make himself out like a victim?
Why would anyone give the members of the intelligence community and the politicians pushing that 2+ year charade the benefit of the doubt? You could apply your criticism of Trump to them, too.

Stephen Carter, a Yale law professor, wrote an opinion piece about James Comey's book "A Higher Loyalty" for the Chicago Tribune with a critical paragraph that's worth bringing up here:

"...true respect for justice requires a symmetry. If I'm not allowed to lie to you, then you shouldn't be allowed to lie to me. If the detective who deceives me about the evidence to gain my confession is to be congratulated for good police work, then I should be congratulated for good defense work if I deceive the detective about the evidence to secure my release."

Mueller and his team couldn't find Trump guilty of conspiracy/coordination with the Russian government to interfere in the 2016 election. If you're in Trump's shoes and you knew you were innocent from the very start, would you let bygones be bygones considering the Dems are still trying to remove you from office? You might, but I wouldn't, so I have no trouble sympathizing with the position he's in. I have enough unanswered questions about the origins of the investigation to think it deserves the scrutiny it's now receiving by Horowitz, Durham and Barr.

I don't get my news from left-wing sources. I live in one of the reddest states in the country, work with plenty of conservatives, and come from a family of hardcore conservatism...I'm not in some liberal bubble. I'm pretty centrist , but besides the liberals I know, I know a ton of conservatives who fucking hate Trump because of who he is. I might be to the left of my dad and my brother on social issues and economic policies, but we all can recognize a fucking moron when we see one.
I'm not trying to change your opinion of the man, but I am curious as to why you're having trouble understanding different perspectives. In my experience that often comes down to the news they're consuming because it's more partisan than ever. If I wasn't open to far left and far right news I'd be missing out on a lot of valuable info.
 

KINGMOKU

Member
May 16, 2005
6,430
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Best to get that info straight from him:



You seem eager to brush the Russian investigation details under the rug while focusing on Biden. That's how most of the mainstream media is covering it, the same media outlets that convinced people Hillary was a sure winner in 2016, that Trump and his family members were going to get indicted, that he called white nationalists very fine people, that he's a racist xenophobe for wanting to finish what Clinton, Bush and Obama started... Could go on, but you see the point I'm making here. I'm in the habit of questioning everything.



Why would anyone give the members of the intelligence community and the politicians pushing that 2+ year charade the benefit of the doubt? You could apply your criticism of Trump to them, too.

Stephen Carter, a Yale law professor, wrote an opinion piece about James Comey's book "A Higher Loyalty" for the Chicago Tribune with a critical paragraph that's worth bringing up here:

"...true respect for justice requires a symmetry. If I'm not allowed to lie to you, then you shouldn't be allowed to lie to me. If the detective who deceives me about the evidence to gain my confession is to be congratulated for good police work, then I should be congratulated for good defense work if I deceive the detective about the evidence to secure my release."

Mueller and his team couldn't find Trump guilty of conspiracy/coordination with the Russian government to interfere in the 2016 election. If you're in Trump's shoes and you knew you were innocent from the very start, would you let bygones be bygones considering the Dems are still trying to remove you from office? You might, but I wouldn't, so I have no trouble sympathizing with the position he's in. I have enough unanswered questions about the origins of the investigation to think it deserves the scrutiny it's now receiving by Horowitz, Durham and Barr.



I'm not trying to change your opinion of the man, but I am curious as to why you're having trouble understanding different perspectives. In my experience that often comes down to the news they're consuming because it's more partisan than ever. If I wasn't open to far left and far right news I'd be missing out on a lot of valuable info.
Having to suffer thru a myriad of biased news outlets is something you have to endure to even get the gist of what "the story" is even about.

If you reading about a story and believe it immediately, you may have been had as many have been over the past several years.

I could bring up story after story about media outlets jumping the gun and having to provide a retraction, buried somewhere so as not to admit a mistake was made, or it doesn't fit a particular narrative.

Our media has become a cesspool of bias and it's up to us to remain vigilant less we fall victim to this insane barrage of half-truths, lies, and deception.

I always try to use at least 5 different outlets for the same story, especially if it is about politics.
 

Dev1lXYZ

Member
Sep 1, 2017
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That's a hilariously stupid take on the situation given how dumb the dude sounds whenever he opens his mouth. Anyone who's come out of his admin has had nothing but shit to talk about it and how it's run. It's a cutthroat, sycophantic organization run by a boss suffering from narcissistic personality disorder, and as someone who's seen a semblance of this up close in life, I have no doubt that's all it is. There's no depth to Trump, there's just Trump imagining what Trump is and fighting off anything that says otherwise.
Have you ever considered they are acting to integrate themselves to compromise a perceived threat? You have to understand how the enemy operates and who is in the chain of command in order to destroy them. They still take orders from Trump.

I can tell by your remarks that you haven’t figured out how the social fabric of the real world works.
 
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Thaedolus

Member
Jun 9, 2004
8,274
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I love how this logic is never applied to Biden :pie_eyeroll:
What would apply to Biden here? My take on Biden is he's a run of the mill Democrat old guy who's got some skeletons in his closet from like 5 decades of politics. He's probably grabbed some asses over the years, but I *doubt* he fucked a porn star and paid her off illegally...

You are an idiot. The guy has killed russians
Thanks for letting me know.

Best to get that info straight from him:
You seem eager to brush the Russian investigation details under the rug while focusing on Biden. That's how most of the mainstream media is covering it, the same media outlets that convinced people Hillary was a sure winner in 2016, that Trump and his family members were going to get indicted, that he called white nationalists very fine people, that he's a racist xenophobe for wanting to finish what Clinton, Bush and Obama started... Could go on, but you see the point I'm making here. I'm in the habit of questioning everything.
Do you question Trump's narrative then? I'm not sure why you think I'm eager to brush the Russian investigation aside, when I think it was a properly conducted investigation that started for proper reasons. Trump's full of shit here, these "evil things" he's talking about are a fabrication. His son and campaign manager were meeting with Russian spies who blatantly put out that they were in the business of helping him win. This is all a matter of public record and in e-mails Don Jr. eventually released. And far from being used as a political cudgel against Trump during the campaign, the existence of the FBI investigation stayed secret until after the election, a luxury Clinton never got.

Why would anyone give the members of the intelligence community and the politicians pushing that 2+ year charade the benefit of the doubt? You could apply your criticism of Trump to them, too.
Because it wasn't a fucking charade and they kept the existence of the investigation secret until after the election. Trump publicly called on Russia to release Clinton's e-mails, Trump raved about Wikileaks (a Russian front), Trump's campaign was meeting with Russian spies...nothing about this was a charade. Mueller couldn't *prove* criminal conspiracy, but "collusion" was always out of scope of his investigation and even then, he felt he couldn't bring any charges against a sitting president. It's all in the document. He laid out multiple counts of obstruction of justice, but prefaced with the fact he couldn't do anything about it because of the OLC opinion on charging a sitting president.

Stephen Carter, a Yale law professor, wrote an opinion piece about James Comey's book "A Higher Loyalty" for the Chicago Tribune with a critical paragraph that's worth bringing up here:

"...true respect for justice requires a symmetry. If I'm not allowed to lie to you, then you shouldn't be allowed to lie to me. If the detective who deceives me about the evidence to gain my confession is to be congratulated for good police work, then I should be congratulated for good defense work if I deceive the detective about the evidence to secure my release."

Mueller and his team couldn't find Trump guilty of conspiracy/coordination with the Russian government to interfere in the 2016 election. If you're in Trump's shoes and you knew you were innocent from the very start, would you let bygones be bygones considering the Dems are still trying to remove you from office? You might, but I wouldn't, so I have no trouble sympathizing with the position he's in. I have enough unanswered questions about the origins of the investigation to think it deserves the scrutiny it's now receiving by Horowitz, Durham and Barr.
If I were in Trump's shoes, I'd be very careful about the abuse of power and obstruction of justice he clearly engaged in. Yes, it's quaint to think "if you're innocent, why act this way?" and it's understandable that someone would get down and dirty to defend themselves if the other side wasn't above board. But where's the evidence the investigation wasn't above board? That's the thing- the whole conspiracy theory about the Steele dossier and whatever is nonsense. The Trump campaign acted in very real and improper ways with bad actors to get that investigation opened. And it was Trump's own actions to try to obstruct the investigation that got the special counsel assigned. So I have little sympathy for him acting dirty against a dirty detective when there's really no reason to think the detective was dirty, and there are a lot of reasons to think Trump is dirty.

I'm not trying to change your opinion of the man, but I am curious as to why you're having trouble understanding different perspectives. In my experience that often comes down to the news they're consuming because it's more partisan than ever. If I wasn't open to far left and far right news I'd be missing out on a lot of valuable info.
I can understand the different perspectives on this, I just think they're wrong. For example, I get that some people think Trump is actually playing 4D chess and is brilliant in his strategy....I can see why that would seem like the case, given the Teflon Don we've seen emerge from controversy after controversy. But I think a simpler explanation is just that the guy has no shame and enough people buy his brand for it to keep going. In general, everything that he does can be pretty neatly categorized as exactly what someone with narcissistic personality disorder would do. To me that doesn't show any sign of brilliance or intelligence, but rather it's exposed how vulnerable our system is to someone like Trump, and how willing to go along with it sycophantic cronies and cowards are.
 

danielberg

Neophyte
Jun 20, 2018
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That's a hilariously stupid take on the situation given how dumb the dude sounds whenever he opens his mouth. Anyone who's come out of his admin has had nothing but shit to talk about it and how it's run. It's a cutthroat, sycophantic organization run by a boss suffering from narcissistic personality disorder, and as someone who's seen a semblance of this up close in life, I have no doubt that's all it is. There's no depth to Trump, there's just Trump imagining what Trump is and fighting off anything that says otherwise.
Currently there is no one that sounds dumber than you dude. You attacked a innocent men and everyone that works with him on a global scale based ON NOTHING, literal drive society stupid with anger, attacks and lies and omg they say bad stuff about trump after they leave wow shocker! Fucking idiot.
Truly currently the worst thing about politics and also the dumbest useful idiot motherfuckers currently available to be fooled, actually no not available... literally begging to be fooled again because the ego cant handle being played like 10$ whore by the media again so its begging for narratives and lies that keep the shit ego above water for as long as possible.
Hey maybe you can find a absolute troglodyte like mueller again that finds no law breaking but throws you a bone ala newly invente non law terms like "not exonerated" muh russia style, i am sure you would swallow that bullshit whole again and wonder why nothing happens afterwards... again.
 
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Thaedolus

Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Currently there is no one that sounds dumber than you dude. You absolute idiots attacked a innocent men and everyone that works with him on a global scale based ON NOTHING, literal drive society stupid with anger and lies and omg they say bad stuff about trump after they leave wow shocker! Fucking retard.
Stupid Bastards like you are truly currently the worst thing about politics and also the dumbest useful idiot motherfuckers in currently available to be fooled, actually no literally begging to be fooled again.
Ok.
 
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Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
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you go where the evidence is, people will take your blustering seriously when it's got bite

as for trump, i don't give a shit who he fucks or what's in his coin purse
 
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SLoWMoTIoN

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Feb 2, 2018
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Have you ever considered they are acting to integrate themselves to compromise a perceived threat? You have to understand how the enemy operates and who is in the chain of command in order to destroy them. They still take orders from Trump.

I can tell by your remarks that you haven’t figured out how the social fabric of the real world works.
Is this copypasta
Currently there is no one that sounds dumber than you dude. You attacked a innocent men and everyone that works with him on a global scale based ON NOTHING, literal drive society stupid with anger, attacks and lies and omg they say bad stuff about trump after they leave wow shocker! Fucking idiot.
Truly currently the worst thing about politics and also the dumbest useful idiot motherfuckers currently available to be fooled, actually no not available... literally begging to be fooled again because the ego cant handle being played like 10$ whore by the media again so its begging for narratives and lies that keep the shit ego above water for as long as possible.
Hey maybe you can find a absolute troglodyte like mueller again that finds no law breaking but throws you a bone ala newly invente non law terms like "not exonerated" muh russia style, i am sure you would swallow that bullshit whole again and wonder why nothing happens afterwards... again.
Is it really necessary to get this heated over his post? Please respect your fellow posters.
 
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Dev1lXYZ

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Sep 1, 2017
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not a copy pasta or a copy paste. 😂

I’ve just been around the block. I’ve lived six administrations. I’ve taken the tour, seen the sights as they say.
 
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JORMBO

Darkness no more
Mar 5, 2009
7,091
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Mark Zaid, the attorney representing the whistleblower who sounded the alarm on President Donald Trump's dealings with Ukraine and triggered an impeachment inquiry, tells ABC News that he is now representing a second whistleblower who has spoken with the inspector general.

Zaid tells ABC News' Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos that the second person -- also described as an intelligence official -- has first-hand knowledge of some of the allegations outlined in the original complaint and has been interviewed by the head of the intelligence community's internal watchdog office, Michael Atkinson.

The existence of a second whistleblower -- particularly one who can speak directly about events involving the president related to conversations involving Ukraine -- could undercut Trump's repeated insistence that the original complaint, released on Sept. 26, was "totally inaccurate."

What can more whisleblowers offer when we have the transcript? At this point we know what was said.
 
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Nobody_Important

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May 22, 2018
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What can more whisleblowers offer when we have the transcript? At this point we know what was said.
The more information we have the better in my opinion. If this 2nd whistleblower has nothing new to offer then its not that big of a deal. But if they do? That could be big news depending on what they have to say. I look forward to hearing more about this and what evidence they can offer.
 
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infinitys_7th

Gold Member
Oct 1, 2006
5,176
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How convenient this 2nd whistleblower comes forward right when the first one starts losing steam and the likelihood of Schiff mishandling them comes into question.

And the new one is also being handled by former CIA and certified idiot Mark Zaid as well. This all glows in the dark.

Moar Asian girl reaction gifs
 

transformer

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Nov 5, 2013
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We already have a ton of first hand information on the call and Trump’s dealings with Ukraine. This includes, transcripts, accounts by trump and his administration and accounts by Ukraine. No pressure, No quid pro quo according to all of this. If this second “whistleblower” claims otherwise it is meaningless without any evidence. We’ve been down this road of lying before...
 
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Liberty4all

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As far as I've ever heard, the only thing he's ever done successfully is pretend to be smart on The Apprentice.

Everything else he's done has turned to shit.
Aside from becoming the most powerful man in the world of course. But oh he's so stupid.

Do you not see the cognitive dissonance of what you are saying versus reality?
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
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The more information we have the better in my opinion. If this 2nd whistleblower has nothing new to offer then its not that big of a deal. But if they do? That could be big news depending on what they have to say. I look forward to hearing more about this and what evidence they can offer.
Claiming "the more information we have the better" is only meaningful if one is also willing to consider current information that we already hae available (which you don't seem to be) and if one has a track record of pursuing honest leads (which you don't).

Covington kids, Jussie Smollett, Trump's Avenatti-led accusers, Kavanaugh's Democrat-led accusers, the Russiagate embarassment, and all these other "breaking stories" have tried to push additional lies in the name of "the more information we have the better".

Normally, in an otherwise neutral situation, I'm all for seeking out more information and giving witnesses a voice to speak their standpoint. But we are not in a neutral situation. The USA has suffered through dozens of "credible testimonies" on the Democrats' side that ended up vanishing in smoke. Since the willing puppets like yourself have no self-awareness and never pause to question the credibility of your side, convincing you or waiting for you to catch up with reality is meaningless. Seeking out more information in good faith is a fools errand when the other side is actively pushing lies. Whether that is due to naive earnestness or deception, it doesn't matter much because the result is the same.

I'm sure you're looking forward to hearing more about what evidence they have to offer... because in your mind anything that can damage Trump is worth pursuing. But your own post history demonstrates that you will not seek out more information (Smollett, Kavanaugh, Covington, et al) when the accusations align with your assumptions.
 

rorepmE

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Jan 20, 2019
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Aside from becoming the most powerful man in the world of course. But oh he's so stupid.

Do you not see the cognitive dissonance of what you are saying versus reality?
Most of these clowns can't even be bothered to looking to the details of his business failures. Just parrot whatever talking points they're told. Atlantic City was on a severe decline from the 70s to 2010s. Anyone with their hand in that failed, even Carl Icahn.
 
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gamerMan

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Jun 10, 2014
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We already have a ton of first hand information on the call and Trump’s dealings with Ukraine. This includes, transcripts, accounts by trump and his administration and accounts by Ukraine. No pressure, No quid pro quo according to all of this. If this second “whistleblower” claims otherwise it is meaningless without any evidence. We’ve been down this road of lying before...
We still don't fully understand the call. Why was the President asking about Crowdstrike, which was actually the real focus of the call?
 

Joe T.

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Oct 3, 2004
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Do you question Trump's narrative then? I'm not sure why you think I'm eager to brush the Russian investigation aside, when I think it was a properly conducted investigation that started for proper reasons. Trump's full of shit here, these "evil things" he's talking about are a fabrication. His son and campaign manager were meeting with Russian spies who blatantly put out that they were in the business of helping him win. This is all a matter of public record and in e-mails Don Jr. eventually released. And far from being used as a political cudgel against Trump during the campaign, the existence of the FBI investigation stayed secret until after the election, a luxury Clinton never got.

Because it wasn't a fucking charade and they kept the existence of the investigation secret until after the election. Trump publicly called on Russia to release Clinton's e-mails, Trump raved about Wikileaks (a Russian front), Trump's campaign was meeting with Russian spies...nothing about this was a charade. Mueller couldn't *prove* criminal conspiracy, but "collusion" was always out of scope of his investigation and even then, he felt he couldn't bring any charges against a sitting president. It's all in the document. He laid out multiple counts of obstruction of justice, but prefaced with the fact he couldn't do anything about it because of the OLC opinion on charging a sitting president.

If I were in Trump's shoes, I'd be very careful about the abuse of power and obstruction of justice he clearly engaged in. Yes, it's quaint to think "if you're innocent, why act this way?" and it's understandable that someone would get down and dirty to defend themselves if the other side wasn't above board. But where's the evidence the investigation wasn't above board? That's the thing- the whole conspiracy theory about the Steele dossier and whatever is nonsense. The Trump campaign acted in very real and improper ways with bad actors to get that investigation opened. And it was Trump's own actions to try to obstruct the investigation that got the special counsel assigned. So I have little sympathy for him acting dirty against a dirty detective when there's really no reason to think the detective was dirty, and there are a lot of reasons to think Trump is dirty.

I can understand the different perspectives on this, I just think they're wrong. For example, I get that some people think Trump is actually playing 4D chess and is brilliant in his strategy....I can see why that would seem like the case, given the Teflon Don we've seen emerge from controversy after controversy. But I think a simpler explanation is just that the guy has no shame and enough people buy his brand for it to keep going. In general, everything that he does can be pretty neatly categorized as exactly what someone with narcissistic personality disorder would do. To me that doesn't show any sign of brilliance or intelligence, but rather it's exposed how vulnerable our system is to someone like Trump, and how willing to go along with it sycophantic cronies and cowards are.
If you want a brief run down of why the investigation into Russian collusion deserves a second look I'd rather direct you to one of many write-ups because this was beaten to death as the trial dragged on. While the skeptics were diving into the weeds the anti-Trump crowd was dismissing it all as conspiracy theories. You're doing that, too, so it's up to you whether you want to entertain the possibility of wrongdoing or believe you already know everything there is to know. The country entered wars because of deceptive practices by the intelligence communities, they've more than earned the skepticism.

As for my personal view of the case, if I didn't question Trump I'd be a mindless zombie that believed he was 100% innocent and I'd have disregarded the Dems from the start. He was in the business world a long time, he knew how to exploit the weaknesses in the system and I was open to the idea that he might have gone too far in trying to fight back against the Clinton machine. Then he had the weight of the world come crashing down on him for 2+ years - the Democrats, the media, the intelligence agencies - and they couldn't prove their case against him. That raised questions about his opponents.

Any reasonable person/party would have accepted the results of the Mueller investigation, put that 2+ year mess behind them and moved on with the interest of the country in mind. They didn't, though, because passing major bipartisan legislation is unacceptable to the Democrats - they don't want to help the country under Donald Trump because they fear it gets him re-elected. That is really all this was ever about. They never accepted the results of the 2016 election and they don't dare give him anything he can use to his benefit in 2020. If you're still supporting these transparent attempts to remove Trump from office you're essentially fighting against democracy, you just don't realize it yet.

The Dems lost the high ground with Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" and everything they've done since then has only weakened their position. I can bring up countless quotes here to prove the case, but you're in a red state so I suspect you're already well aware. This Ukraine story has gotten off to such a bad start that the Dems look like a completely corrupt party working hand in hand with members of the intelligence communities to remove a president for a benign phone call. Pelosi's son now joins Hunter under the spotlight.


Trump's dragging all the swamp creatures out into the sunlight. The more the Dems fight, the better Trump looks.
 

Papu

Member
May 11, 2005
78
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Shouldn’t have eaten a block of cheese, I‘m about to puke. This and the 2016 DNC / Ukraine election meddling is the real story the media is trying to hide.
 
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