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The White House releases transcript of Trump call with Ukraine (OP Updated)

gunslikewhoa

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This probably deserves it's own thread, but I don't have time this morning.

 

danielberg

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This probably deserves it's own thread, but I don't have time this morning.

 

crowbrow

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The CIA shouldn’t be allowed to operate anywhere. They have their tendrils inside everything. They have been granted way too much power and should be reigned in with new guidelines or completely disbanded and reformed under a new doctrine.
Fixed
 
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Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
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The Pentagon
Who woulda thunk that having an unlimited budget, open-ended mandate, lack of any oversight, and plausible deniability for nearly any action would lead to trouble?

:unsure:
eh shit happens, yer always gonna have bad players and ops

all those things are positives not negatives, we need a black book force for good in this world
 
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Ornlu

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eh shit happens, yer always gonna have bad players and ops

all those things are positives not negatives, we need a black book force for good in this world
Yeah but the "for good" part is what's missing. Fighting the greater evil for 50 years really fucked our compass up in regards to the alphabet agencies.
 

Thaedolus

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If you want a brief run down of why the investigation into Russian collusion deserves a second look I'd rather direct you to one of many write-ups because this was beaten to death as the trial dragged on. While the skeptics were diving into the weeds the anti-Trump crowd was dismissing it all as conspiracy theories. You're doing that, too, so it's up to you whether you want to entertain the possibility of wrongdoing or believe you already know everything there is to know. The country entered wars because of deceptive practices by the intelligence communities, they've more than earned the skepticism.
I'm not sure how anyone pro-Trump could think the investigation itself was shady. Yes, lots of noise around it, yes lots of people speculating about what it would reveal, yes, it was weaponized and politicized, but how can the actual investigation itself be seen as shady? Mueller's appointment came after Trump tried to get Comey to either a) lie about the fact there was an investigation or b) make it go away. What other choice was there to prove this was all above board except appoint a special counsel? And the special counsel's team itself were as tight-lipped and leak-proof as they possibly could be. The conclusions found within were as by the book as they could've been. Even though it documented a litany of shady shit going on with the Trump team, Mueller passed on pressing for an indictment of the president or even his family caught lying.

Anyone complaining about the investigation really just can't get over the fact that Trump acted in shady and probably illegal ways, then tried to cover it up and obstruct justice.

As for my personal view of the case, if I didn't question Trump I'd be a mindless zombie that believed he was 100% innocent and I'd have disregarded the Dems from the start. He was in the business world a long time, he knew how to exploit the weaknesses in the system and I was open to the idea that he might have gone too far in trying to fight back against the Clinton machine. Then he had the weight of the world come crashing down on him for 2+ years - the Democrats, the media, the intelligence agencies - and they couldn't prove their case against him. That raised questions about his opponents.
Alternatively: the Mueller report proves the case Trump at least obstructed justice in multiple counts. Mueller explicitly stated he couldn't bring charges against the president, and that if he could exonerate him he would've done so, but he couldn't. It was a punt to congress to do something about it as is their constitutional role. Pelosi didn't want to do it because a) she's afraid of the political cost of doing so and b) the Republican Senate almost certainly wouldn't convict, making it essentially a moot point. At the end of the day, however, the Mueller report is incredibly damning, even if it didn't lead to criminal prosecution of the president when that was apparently never in the scope of what Mueller could do.

Any reasonable person/party would have accepted the results of the Mueller investigation, put that 2+ year mess behind them and moved on with the interest of the country in mind. They didn't, though, because passing major bipartisan legislation is unacceptable to the Democrats - they don't want to help the country under Donald Trump because they fear it gets him re-elected. That is really all this was ever about. They never accepted the results of the 2016 election and they don't dare give him anything he can use to his benefit in 2020. If you're still supporting these transparent attempts to remove Trump from office you're essentially fighting against democracy, you just don't realize it yet.
Reiterating what I said above, I think the Mueller report paints a very damning picture of the president. He engaged in shady shit during the election, he and his cronies continued to lie about it, and the report itself says that evidence was deleted and people plead the 5th which hindered the investigation. To me, this doesn't sound like an above board campaign or admin. It sounds like one that knows it did bad shit and didn't want to get caught.

The Dems lost the high ground with Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables" and everything they've done since then has only weakened their position. I can bring up countless quotes here to prove the case, but you're in a red state so I suspect you're already well aware. This Ukraine story has gotten off to such a bad start that the Dems look like a completely corrupt party working hand in hand with members of the intelligence communities to remove a president for a benign phone call. Pelosi's son now joins Hunter under the spotlight.


Trump's dragging all the swamp creatures out into the sunlight. The more the Dems fight, the better Trump looks.
I don't know that Clinton ever had the high ground and certainly the swampiness of Washington insiders is unseemly and maddening to someone like me who gets up every day to go to work at a job I earned my way into. But the idea that Trump is doing anything about it other than exploiting it himself, to the maximum degree and out in the open, is laughable to me. You can find examples like so-and-so's son is on the board of some company and is getting paid outrageously for it, sure. But what the Trumps are doing is so far beyond that it's fucking hilarious. The thing is: they have no shame about it, so nobody seems to care.
 

Bolivar687

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I'm not sure how anyone pro-Trump could think the investigation itself was shady. Yes, lots of noise around it, yes lots of people speculating about what it would reveal, yes, it was weaponized and politicized, but how can the actual investigation itself be seen as shady? Mueller's appointment came after Trump tried to get Comey to either a) lie about the fact there was an investigation or b) make it go away. What other choice was there to prove this was all above board except appoint a special counsel? And the special counsel's team itself were as tight-lipped and leak-proof as they possibly could be. The conclusions found within were as by the book as they could've been. Even though it documented a litany of shady shit going on with the Trump team, Mueller passed on pressing for an indictment of the president or even his family caught lying.

Anyone complaining about the investigation really just can't get over the fact that Trump acted in shady and probably illegal ways, then tried to cover it up and obstruct justice.



Alternatively: the Mueller report proves the case Trump at least obstructed justice in multiple counts. Mueller explicitly stated he couldn't bring charges against the president, and that if he could exonerate him he would've done so, but he couldn't. It was a punt to congress to do something about it as is their constitutional role. Pelosi didn't want to do it because a) she's afraid of the political cost of doing so and b) the Republican Senate almost certainly wouldn't convict, making it essentially a moot point. At the end of the day, however, the Mueller report is incredibly damning, even if it didn't lead to criminal prosecution of the president when that was apparently never in the scope of what Mueller could do.



Reiterating what I said above, I think the Mueller report paints a very damning picture of the president. He engaged in shady shit during the election, he and his cronies continued to lie about it, and the report itself says that evidence was deleted and people plead the 5th which hindered the investigation. To me, this doesn't sound like an above board campaign or admin. It sounds like one that knows it did bad shit and didn't want to get caught.



I don't know that Clinton ever had the high ground and certainly the swampiness of Washington insiders is unseemly and maddening to someone like me who gets up every day to go to work at a job I earned my way into. But the idea that Trump is doing anything about it other than exploiting it himself, to the maximum degree and out in the open, is laughable to me. You can find examples like so-and-so's son is on the board of some company and is getting paid outrageously for it, sure. But what the Trumps are doing is so far beyond that it's fucking hilarious. The thing is: they have no shame about it, so nobody seems to care.
👆 I disagree with the factual constructions of this post.
 
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danielberg

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Provide some examples of where, then. This kind of low effort response should be embarrassing to you.
The issue is that you literally believe pure crap that was already revealed as dog shit years ago when this was actually relevant.
To put it into perspective here is what you wrote:
"I'm not sure how anyone pro-Trump could think the investigation itself was shady. Yes, lots of noise around it, yes lots of people speculating about what it would reveal, yes, it was weaponized and politicized, but how can the actual investigation itself be seen as shady? Mueller's appointment came after Trump tried to get Comey to either a) lie about the fact there was an investigation or b) make it go away. What other choice was there to prove this was all above board except appoint a special counsel? "

You asking how the investigation could be shady the same investigation that had the previous administration spy illegally on the trump campaing, then illegally lie to fisa courts and all this was started with democrat paid for manufacturer lies spread by comey and co to the media. The same comey that just made up new rules for hillary and got her off with it the same comey that democrats and republicans wanted fired and who rosenstein told the president needs to be fired only to when it was done go to comey and muller and say "yep now we can start".
One thing is undoubtetly true, 2years of lies happened on a global scale which made people literally insane and no matter what you think about it the start of muh russia has to be investigated to see how it was done and to prevent it from happening again in the future.
 
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autoduelist

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I cannot find anything on which Romney Jr. this would be, anyone know ?
Not sure. I actually quick checked this before posting, but upon rereading the article was about a Romney advisor on the board for Burisma [still a bad look], not a son. I misread a paragraph during my quickread, because upon rereading the paragraph was about hunter.
 

Thaedolus

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You asking how the investigation could be shady the same investigation that had the previous administration spy illegally on the trump campaing, then illegally lie to fisa courts and all this was started with democrat paid for manufacturer lies spread by comey and co to the media. The same comey that just made up new rules for hillary and got her off with it the same comey that democrats and republicans wanted fired and who rosenstein told the president needs to be fired only to when it was done go to comey and muller and say "yep now we can start".
One thing is undoubtetly true, 2years of lies happened on a global scale which made people literally insane and no matter what you think about it the start of muh russia has to be investigated to see how it was done and to prevent it from happening again in the future.
Almost none of what you said is true or actually happened, so good try, but no. Nobody was spied on illegally, FISA courts approved surveillance properly, Comey didn't manufacture shit and went out of his way to talk about an ongoing investigation with Clinton but didn't mention anything about Trump, and the whole thing started because the Trump campaign was meeting with Russian spies, which Don Jr. himself admitted to by releasing his e-mails which made it absolutely clear the Russians were working to get Trump elected.

So what the fuck is the lie here and what was improper? Nothing. Trump deserved to be investigated and the investigation showed what a fucking cunt he is. News at 11.
 

Bolivar687

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Provide some examples of where, then. This kind of low effort response should be embarrassing to you.
Because you keep writing that Trump obstructed justice and that the report is damning, but you never once actually explain how or why. Serious question: how strongly do you believe this and why and do you think logic and evidence could potentially change your mind?

You also started off this post by claiming "I'm not sure how anyone pro-Trump could think the investigation itself was shady." Do you honestly mean that or are you just saying it? Because only a few posts above yours is how the Ukranian government was helping the Clinton campaign to fabricate claims against Trump.

The principals of "Crossfire Hurricane" refuse to say when the investigation into Trump began, because it would likely expose what a fraud it all was. The Inspector General found all its FISA warrants were unlawfully obtained. The Clinton Campaign compiled the dossier by working with Russian government officials through its proxies. The Trump Tower meeting was likely orchestrated by Fusion GPS, the same Clinton proxy manufacturing the dossier. George Papadopoulos was put in prison because he couldn't remember what he drunkenly said one time at a party. They raided the offices of a lawyer to pierce the attorney-client privilege. Comey told the President to his face that he was not under investigation, then immediately went to type investigative notes against the President. Rosenstein wanted to illegally wiretap the President without his knowledge. Andrew McCabe is about to be charged by the Department of Justice.

Does any of this sound in any way at all suspicious or unreasonable to you?
 

Bolivar687

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Nobody was spied on illegally, FISA courts approved surveillance properly,




When the IG report comes out and if it indeed concludes the warrants were illegally obtained, are you willing to admit you were wrong?

So what the fuck is the lie here and what was improper? Nothing. Trump deserved to be investigated and the investigation showed what a fucking cunt he is. News at 11.
You don't sound like a neutral observer anymore.

Also, are you British?
 

Thaedolus

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Because you keep writing that Trump obstructed justice and that the report is damning, but you never once actually explain how or why. Serious question: how strongly do you believe this and why and do you think logic and evidence could potentially change your mind?
Have you read the report? Because if you had it should be self-evident how and why the report is damning. This is from Lawfare, not exactly a bastion of liberal wokeness:



...the report goes to great lengths to detail all of the above. Granted the idea that someone might "fight back" in a dirty way if he thought he was being falsely accused of something, why go to such great lengths to expose yourself to this kind of criminality if there's no "there" there? Why lie about all of the shit you did during the campaign and subsequently hinder the investigation in ways that are almost certainly criminal and an abuse of power if you're really innocent? Far from exonerating himself, Trump only made himself look more guilty in almost every action he took after he was elected.

You also started off this post by claiming "I'm not sure how anyone pro-Trump could think the investigation itself was shady." Do you honestly mean that or are you just saying it? Because only a few posts above yours is how the Ukranian government was helping the Clinton campaign to fabricate claims against Trump.
Oh, excuse me for not taking The Blaze seriously when it comes to interpreting evidence from Wikileaks and coming to a reasonable conclusion of what it means.

The principals of "Crossfire Hurricane" refuse to say when the investigation into Trump began, because it would likely expose what a fraud it all was. The Inspector General found all its FISA warrants were unlawfully obtained.
Receipts? How was the investigation a fraud when it's accepted public knowledge that the Trump campaign was meeting with Russian spies, Trump was publicly lauding Wikileaks and asking the Russians to get Hillary's e-mails right before they dropped? None of this is predicated on the existence of the dossier.

The Clinton Campaign compiled the dossier by working with Russian government officials through its proxies.
Incorrect, it started with Jeb Bush and continued to be funded by Clinton once he dropped out. It's opposition research, and much of it was compiled with varying degrees of certainty (i.e. the pee tape thing wasn't ever a bold assertion, and could've been disinformation, but that kind of nuanced analysis of what the dossier was is completely lost in the noise)

The Trump Tower meeting was likely orchestrated by Fusion GPS, the same Clinton proxy manufacturing the dossier.
Fucking LOL. Ok bud. Never mind the fact the Trump campaign fell for it hook line and sinker, it was all a setup!

George Papadopoulos was put in prison because he couldn't remember what he drunkenly said one time at a party.
That's an interesting interpretation of pleading guilty to repeatedly lying to investigators and hindering their investigation.

They raided the offices of a lawyer to pierce the attorney-client privilege.
Attorney-client privilege isn't a shield for a crime.

Comey told the President to his face that he was not under investigation, then immediately went to type investigative notes against the President.
At the time, it was the campaign under investigation, not the president himself. Comey wasn't wrong nor did he lie. And his memorializing the conversation was due to how highly irregular/improper it was. Seems like something you'd do if you're above-board and wanting to make sure things are properly documented.

Rosenstein wanted to illegally wiretap the President without his knowledge.
Bullshit

Andrew McCabe is about to be charged by the Department of Justice.
Could be, though given your skepticism of everything else that's gone on with these investigations, it's curious that you don't see this as politically motivated?

Does any of this sound in any way at all suspicious or unreasonable to you?
Not in a way that seems to exonerate someone who seems to always act in the most deplorable (oops) and criminal way possible.






When the IG report comes out and if it indeed concludes the warrants were illegally obtained, are you willing to admit you were wrong?
So you've provided some articles that say "so and so says this..." or "rumors are the IG report will say..." ...sorry but the predictions of an asshat like Devin Nunes don't really sway me.


You don't sound like a neutral observer anymore.

Also, are you British?
I don't see how anyone is really neutral here, I've come to the conclusion that Trump's a piece of shit by watching him for the last 4 years or so. And no, born and raised in the USA.
 

NickFire

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Have you read the report? Because if you had it should be self-evident how and why the report is damning. This is from Lawfare, not exactly a bastion of liberal wokeness:



...the report goes to great lengths to detail all of the above. Granted the idea that someone might "fight back" in a dirty way if he thought he was being falsely accused of something, why go to such great lengths to expose yourself to this kind of criminality if there's no "there" there? Why lie about all of the shit you did during the campaign and subsequently hinder the investigation in ways that are almost certainly criminal and an abuse of power if you're really innocent? Far from exonerating himself, Trump only made himself look more guilty in almost every action he took after he was elected.



Oh, excuse me for not taking The Blaze seriously when it comes to interpreting evidence from Wikileaks and coming to a reasonable conclusion of what it means.



Receipts? How was the investigation a fraud when it's accepted public knowledge that the Trump campaign was meeting with Russian spies, Trump was publicly lauding Wikileaks and asking the Russians to get Hillary's e-mails right before they dropped? None of this is predicated on the existence of the dossier.



Incorrect, it started with Jeb Bush and continued to be funded by Clinton once he dropped out. It's opposition research, and much of it was compiled with varying degrees of certainty (i.e. the pee tape thing wasn't ever a bold assertion, and could've been disinformation, but that kind of nuanced analysis of what the dossier was is completely lost in the noise)



Fucking LOL. Ok bud. Never mind the fact the Trump campaign fell for it hook line and sinker, it was all a setup!



That's an interesting interpretation of pleading guilty to repeatedly lying to investigators and hindering their investigation.



Attorney-client privilege isn't a shield for a crime.



At the time, it was the campaign under investigation, not the president himself. Comey wasn't wrong nor did he lie. And his memorializing the conversation was due to how highly irregular/improper it was. Seems like something you'd do if you're above-board and wanting to make sure things are properly documented.



Bullshit



Could be, though given your skepticism of everything else that's gone on with these investigations, it's curious that you don't see this as politically motivated?



Not in a way that seems to exonerate someone who seems to always act in the most deplorable (oops) and criminal way possible.




So you've provided some articles that say "so and so says this..." or "rumors are the IG report will say..." ...sorry but the predictions of an asshat like Devin Nunes don't really sway me.




I don't see how anyone is really neutral here, I've come to the conclusion that Trump's a piece of shit by watching him for the last 4 years or so. And no, born and raised in the USA.
No amount of words will ever change the obvious. The guy made a joke about Russian's releasing emails. It was clear, obvious, and honestly funny. But rather than act like normal people, the DNC, their media allies, and certain members of the Federal Government pretended it was some Freudian slip of the tongue and started a crusade of investigations, "insurance policies", malicious leaks, and downright false allegations that fell flat on their faces over and over and over. Sure, with the unlimited resources of the Federal Government, they proved some people lied, cheated on taxes, whatever. You know it, I know it, we all know that if the same tactics were used against almost anyone involved in politics there would be people caught up in those exact same nets.

Well, unless they are Dems, of course. They will be given a pass by most media, their entire party, and the crooked members of the opposition party who know their hands are also dirty. Instead of investigating actual admissions of withholding billions unless a prosecutor who is a threat to their son's cushy 50k a month no-show job, they get to have the media litter every reference to their conduct with claims that investigators have found no evidence of wrongdoing. All without telling us who the investigators were, when the investigations took place, and what they found or did not find.
 
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cryptoadam

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Remember when Don Jr meet with "Russian spies" at Trump Tower? The same "Russian spies" who meet with Glenn Simpson the before and the after that meeting. The same Glenn Simpson who owns Fusion GPS that was paid to produce the Russian disinformation dossier? The same Russian spy who magically got her visa approved by the state department.

Why is a Democratic operative being paid by democrats to produce phoney dirt meeting with Russian spies before this spy meets with Trump and after this spy meets with Trump? I guess getting some good cookie reciepes. Thats why State must of approved her visa, gotta get those cookie receipes. Heard Glenn Simpson makes a mean sugar cookie.
 

Thaedolus

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No amount of words will ever change the obvious. The guy made a joke about Russian's releasing emails. It was clear, obvious, and honestly funny. But rather than act like normal people, the DNC, their media allies, and certain members of the Federal Government pretended it was some Freudian slip of the tongue and started a crusade of investigations, "insurance policies", malicious leaks, and downright false allegations that fell flat on their faces over and over and over. Sure, with the unlimited resources of the Federal Government, they proved some people lied, cheated on taxes, whatever. You know it, I know it, we all know that if the same tactics were used against almost anyone involved in politics there would be people caught up in those exact same nets.
In and of itself, yeah, it could've just been a joke. Given all the other shit happening and the subsequent release from Wikileaks like that night? Not investigating would be tantamount to dereliction of duty. And if anything, the investigation proved out a number of the allegations that were being made. And, again, nobody here seems to acknowledge that the investigation was completely secret until after the election, whereas the Clinton e-mail thing was highly publicized and politicized against her the entire time.

Well, unless they are Dems, of course. They will be given a pass by most media, their entire party, and the crooked members of the opposition party who know their hands are also dirty. Instead of investigating actual admissions of withholding billions unless a prosecutor who is a threat to their son's cushy 50k a month no-show job, they get to have the media litter every reference to their conduct with claims that investigators have found no evidence of wrongdoing. All without telling us who the investigators were, when the investigations took place, and what they found or did not find.
We know who the investigators were, we know when they took place, and we know what they found and didn't find, it's all highly public info. Are you serious? We knew the entire Mueller team of prosecutors as the whole thing went down.

And the idea that Democrats...

.

never get held accountable...


for their wrong doing...


is quite frankly...


kinda laughable...


given the evidence to the contrary...

.
 
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NickFire

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In and of itself, yeah, it could've just been a joke. Given all the other shit happening and the subsequent release from Wikileaks like that night? Not investigating would be tantamount to dereliction of duty. And if anything, the investigation proved out a number of the allegations that were being made. And, again, nobody here seems to acknowledge that the investigation was completely secret until after the election, whereas the Clinton e-mail thing was highly publicized and politicized against her the entire time.



We know who the investigators were, we know when they took place, and we know what they found and didn't find, it's all highly public info. Are you serious? We knew the entire Mueller team of prosecutors as the whole thing went down.

And the idea that Democrats...

.

never get held accountable...


for their wrong doing...


is quite frankly...


kinda laughable...


given the evidence to the contrary...

.
Fair enough, they will sacrifice their own if it means getting rid of Trump (or Kavanagugh) like Franken. But there is still a protected class among them, including the Clintons and their charitable organization getting millions and millions from countries doing business through HRC's department, and everyone pretends that is normal.

Also, when a Vice President is on public record saying he withheld a billion to get a guy fired, who would have been the most likely guy to investigate that 50k a month no show job (which he claims he was doing), it would be a dereliction of duty not to investigate that by Trump.
 

cryptoadam

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Feb 21, 2018
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Howell then asked if Trump could be impeached for lying to the American public. "I believe so, yes," Letter said.
"Another possible impeachment count is obstruction of Congress," Letter added.


Right on schedule, here comes the obstruction train. No quid pro quo, no high crimes or misdemeanors, so now its obstruction. This whole charade is just an obstruction trap anyways.

And lets throw in "lying". I mean I can understand perjury, but that doesn't seem to be what they are getting at.
 

Bolivar687

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Granted the idea that someone might "fight back" in a dirty way if he thought he was being falsely accused of something, why go to such great lengths to expose yourself to this kind of criminality if there's no "there" there? Why lie about all of the shit you did during the campaign and subsequently hinder the investigation in ways that are almost certainly criminal and an abuse of power if you're really innocent?
I edited my initial post to be less toxic but this gets to the heart of why I originally called this unhinged: do you still seriously believe that Trump worked with the Russians? Because you rhetorically asked if I read the report, surely you must concede that Mueller did conclusively say no Americans worked with the Russians in their disruption campaign?

Also, everything in the hysterical color-coded chart you posted is within the ordinary discretion of the President and private citizens. Can you coherently articulate what about any of it sets you off so much about a President who has done nothing but make this country safe and prosperous?

Lastly, you haven't answered my question: if the Inspector General indeed found all four FISA warrants were illegally obtained, are you going to apologize to us and admit that you were wrong?
 

JORMBO

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Howell then asked if Trump could be impeached for lying to the American public. "I believe so, yes," Letter said.
"Another possible impeachment count is obstruction of Congress," Letter added.


Right on schedule, here comes the obstruction train. No quid pro quo, no high crimes or misdemeanors, so now its obstruction. This whole charade is just an obstruction trap anyways.

And lets throw in "lying". I mean I can understand perjury, but that doesn't seem to be what they are getting at.
I can’t imagine that would go over well with voters.
 

DeepEnigma

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Howell then asked if Trump could be impeached for lying to the American public. "I believe so, yes," Letter said.
"Another possible impeachment count is obstruction of Congress," Letter added.


Right on schedule, here comes the obstruction train. No quid pro quo, no high crimes or misdemeanors, so now its obstruction. This whole charade is just an obstruction trap anyways.

And lets throw in "lying". I mean I can understand perjury, but that doesn't seem to be what they are getting at.
For lying, eh?

We as people can then impeach the entire government office structure on that one. From congress to the senate and everything in between.
 

cryptoadam

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From the same article

The White House and congressional Republicans say the House needs to vote to formally begin an impeachment inquiry, a move House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has avoided and says is unnecessary.
"The House sets its own rules" and "has sole power over impeachment," Letter said, adding that the federal courts should allow the House to have whatever it needs, citing a previous legal opinion.


Of course they don't want to start impeachment and hold a vote because that will force Dems to show their colors and give Trump legal avenues to fight it.

Rather they just want to keep up these secret comittees and leak stuff to their mob in the media so they can spin it right round like a record player right round.
 

danielberg

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Media and idiots who swallowed muh russia gave dems the house didnt matter at all that it was a hoax and now democrats count on the idiots and media to spread and swallow muh ukraine as well and hand them the 2020 election.
That is why they refuse every impeachment precedent ever set in US history while at the same time scream for impeachment and not vote on it, its all about PR for the media and base who already let democrats get away with the same shit once.
 
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Thaedolus

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I edited my initial post to be less toxic but this gets to the heart of why I originally called this unhinged: do you still seriously believe that Trump worked with the Russians? Because you rhetorically asked if I read the report, surely you must concede that Mueller did conclusively say no Americans worked with the Russians in their disruption campaign?
Mueller didn't conclusively say that. He didn't determine that there was enough evidence to charge anyone with criminal conspiracy, which is a far cry from saying nothing happened. Also, the idea that he determined there was no "collusion" is false as well, as he lays out explicitly in the introduction that, though Rosenstein's appointment letter mentions it, there's no criminal statute for collusion and therefore anything at that level was out of scope.

Do I think Trump worked with the Russians? I don't have a way to determine that, and I doubt anything would be so overt as that. But with what's public knowledge about how he's financed his empire given his myriad bankruptcies and western banks refusing to loan him money anymore, and his general incompetence when it comes to running a business, what's been revealed about how much money he got from his father and how much money seems to be being laundered through his properties, and what his sons have said about their financing coming from Russia about 10 years ago, and the blatant openness to working with the Russians given the Trump Tower meeting, and capitulation to Vladimir Putin and giving away secrets about our spies, and Kushner trying to set up a secret back channel, and...well you get the point. Is he "working" with them? Probably not, but he knows who his daddy is and who can unmake him. Any number of those unsavory stories put him at risk for blackmail, so what else do they got we don't even know about?

Also, everything in the hysterical color-coded chart you posted is within the ordinary discretion of the President and private citizens. Can you coherently articulate what about any of it sets you off so much about a President who has done nothing but make this country safe and prosperous?
The president can do certain things and has broad discretion to do certain things under the sort of blanket understanding that the chief executive needs wide latitude to execute his duties without constant threat of criminal investigations. Sure. But Trump's actions in the chart relate specifically to taking actions that have corrupt intent with regard to influencing an investigation. Trying to intimidate witnesses or tamper with testimony, or trying to get someone fired who's investigating you, etc. are all well outside of what would be anyone's ordinary discretion either as a private citizen or as president. And if a private citizen engaged in the shit Trump did during the investigation, almost certainly charges would have been filed against them. Try getting a cop fired that's investigating you or blatantly intimidating witnesses that might testify against you and see how that goes.

Lastly, you haven't answered my question: if the Inspector General indeed found all four FISA warrants were illegally obtained, are you going to apologize to us and admit that you were wrong?
Wrong about what? The FISA issue could be completely separate from a lot of other issues, so what exactly would I be wrong about? If the proper process/procedure wasn't followed, I'd like to know and see accountability for it, but what does that change in the end? Does it undo the fact the Trump Tower meeting happened? Does it undo Papadopoulos admitting to lying and impeding an investigation? Does it undo Trump lying about everything under the sun, but more specifically dictating a denial about the Trump Tower meeting? Or him asking Comey to let the Flynn thing go.? Does it undo Sally Yates warning the admin that Flynn was likely compromised and then they ignored it until it became public?

I'm not going to say everyone involved here is immune to criticism or couldn't have done things better, but for fuck's sake, Trump and everyone around him are by far the worst actors acting in the worst kind of bad faith.
 
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NickFire

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From the same article

The White House and congressional Republicans say the House needs to vote to formally begin an impeachment inquiry, a move House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has avoided and says is unnecessary.
"The House sets its own rules" and "has sole power over impeachment," Letter said, adding that the federal courts should allow the House to have whatever it needs, citing a previous legal opinion.


Of course they don't want to start impeachment and hold a vote because that will force Dems to show their colors and give Trump legal avenues to fight it.

Rather they just want to keep up these secret comittees and leak stuff to their mob in the media so they can spin it right round like a record player right round.
Considering how often the talking heads remind us impeachment is a political process, I don't see why he would possibly cooperate with an unofficial "some of us say we want to kick you out of office" inquiry being spearheaded by some of the most partisan liars on earth. Absolutely make them vote for it. Honestly, I am kind of wondering if the claims they have the votes are fake news to an extent (perhaps some will only vote for an inquiry, and others are only willing to vote on actual impeachment articles???). My gut and head says they had the votes for either inquiry or impeachment since November 2018, and I expected both since November 2018. Yet as of now we have six billion impeachment news stories, and not a single vote for an impeachment inquiry on the record since Pelosi's big impeachment press conference.
 
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Joe T.

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I'm not sure how anyone pro-Trump could think the investigation itself was shady. Yes, lots of noise around it, yes lots of people speculating about what it would reveal, yes, it was weaponized and politicized, but how can the actual investigation itself be seen as shady? Mueller's appointment came after Trump tried to get Comey to either a) lie about the fact there was an investigation or b) make it go away. What other choice was there to prove this was all above board except appoint a special counsel? And the special counsel's team itself were as tight-lipped and leak-proof as they possibly could be. The conclusions found within were as by the book as they could've been. Even though it documented a litany of shady shit going on with the Trump team, Mueller passed on pressing for an indictment of the president or even his family caught lying.

Anyone complaining about the investigation really just can't get over the fact that Trump acted in shady and probably illegal ways, then tried to cover it up and obstruct justice.

Alternatively: the Mueller report proves the case Trump at least obstructed justice in multiple counts. Mueller explicitly stated he couldn't bring charges against the president, and that if he could exonerate him he would've done so, but he couldn't. It was a punt to congress to do something about it as is their constitutional role. Pelosi didn't want to do it because a) she's afraid of the political cost of doing so and b) the Republican Senate almost certainly wouldn't convict, making it essentially a moot point. At the end of the day, however, the Mueller report is incredibly damning, even if it didn't lead to criminal prosecution of the president when that was apparently never in the scope of what Mueller could do.

Reiterating what I said above, I think the Mueller report paints a very damning picture of the president. He engaged in shady shit during the election, he and his cronies continued to lie about it, and the report itself says that evidence was deleted and people plead the 5th which hindered the investigation. To me, this doesn't sound like an above board campaign or admin. It sounds like one that knows it did bad shit and didn't want to get caught.

I don't know that Clinton ever had the high ground and certainly the swampiness of Washington insiders is unseemly and maddening to someone like me who gets up every day to go to work at a job I earned my way into. But the idea that Trump is doing anything about it other than exploiting it himself, to the maximum degree and out in the open, is laughable to me. You can find examples like so-and-so's son is on the board of some company and is getting paid outrageously for it, sure. But what the Trumps are doing is so far beyond that it's fucking hilarious. The thing is: they have no shame about it, so nobody seems to care.
Much of what you said brings me back to the quote I brought up earlier: "If I'm not allowed to lie to you, then you shouldn't be allowed to lie to me. If the detective who deceives me about the evidence to gain my confession is to be congratulated for good police work, then I should be congratulated for good defense work if I deceive the detective about the evidence to secure my release."

It only works if you can entertain the possibility that Trump was not conspiring with Russians to win the election. Given your responses herein to myself and others I'm getting the impression you're unwilling to take that step, so I'm not sure what more can be said.

Presidential elections are a dirty business, the grace period between election night and inauguration day serving as an opportunity for wounds to heal. The Dems couldn't accept the election result and they've been conducting themselves in that same dirty, no-holds-barred manner ever since.
 

danielberg

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Trump and everyone around him are by far the worst actors acting in the worst kind of bad faith.
Wrong you are victim blaming since you got it all wrong from the very beginning and you just cant accept that.
A coup attempt, worldwide lies smears and slander, people attacked for process crimes and then paraded around in the media as if connected to russia so imbecile leftists have a talking point for a week, democrat manufactured garbage pushed through politics and society with the help of media... and you blame the dude on the receiving end of this treason, get a clue.
 
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12Goblins

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The hoops some of you guys jump through for this man is bewildering. Most Ironically, he is the swamp monster and the wannabe tyrant that conservatives have been accusing Obama and fear mongering about for years. Which goes to show you it was largely projection all along.

The fact that some people are still calling the Russian investigation a hoax, after everything we now know, shows you that some folks are willingly delusional. Do some of you ever ask yourself - 'Where is the reverse investigation?' - That should tell you everything you need to know.
 
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Thaedolus

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Much of what you said brings me back to the quote I brought up earlier: "If I'm not allowed to lie to you, then you shouldn't be allowed to lie to me. If the detective who deceives me about the evidence to gain my confession is to be congratulated for good police work, then I should be congratulated for good defense work if I deceive the detective about the evidence to secure my release."

It only works if you can entertain the possibility that Trump was not conspiring with Russians to win the election. Given your responses herein to myself and others I'm getting the impression you're unwilling to take that step, so I'm not sure what more can be said.
I disagree. I can both entertain the possibility that Trump wasn't "conspiring" (in the blatantly intentional, criminal sense that Mueller was investigating) with the Russians to win the election, but was openly willing to collude/make overtures to them/felt beholden to them as the election went on. There are gradations which matter when it comes down to what was actually done, what was actually criminal, what was simply immoral, etc. Giving Mueller and the investigation the benefit of the doubt, considering the fact he seems like one of the most above-board boy scout kinda dudes you could ask for, I don't think there was a criminal conspiracy going on, or at the very least not something provable given what Mueller uncovered. So not only am I entertaining that possibility, it seems to me that's the actual case here.

What Trump did after the fact, as far as obstructing the investigation and such, seem to be fairly clear cut abuses of power and acts of obstruction. Your point about the lying detective isn't lost on me, but there's really nothing to think someone like Mueller or the others investigating Trump were dirty. If anything, DOJ and FBI tend to be conservative entities. The FBI NY field office in particular was described as "Trump Land" leading up to the election. There's really nothing to grasp here to believe Trump was being unfairly scrutinized IMO...

Presidential elections are a dirty business, the grace period between election night and inauguration day serving as an opportunity for wounds to heal. The Dems couldn't accept the election result and they've been conducting themselves in that same dirty, no-holds-barred manner ever since.
Sure they're dirty, but they shouldn't be. And sure Hillary lost, but she won the popular vote by 3 million and there's a lot of bullshittery around what happened...I mean did we just forget what Paulie was up to with the Russians?

It's like you all want to pretend these things are just fabricated out of thin air. They're not.
 
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Ornlu

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The hoops some of you guys jump through for this man is bewildering. Most Ironically, he is the swamp monster and the wannabe tyrant that conservatives have been accusing Obama and fear mongering about for years. Which goes to show you it was largely projection all along.

The fact that some people are still calling the Russian investigation a hoax, after everything we now know, shows you that some folks are willingly delusional. Do some of you ever ask yourself - 'Where is the reverse investigation?' - That should tell you everything you need to know.
How bout if I just reach over the aisle and extend a hand.

Trump is a dirty motherfucker. Anyone involved in NY politics, in real estate, and foreign investments is dirty. I don't think you'd find many people that would deny that, even among his hardcores.

You DO NOT become the President of the United States by being squeaky clean. The Clintons are dirty, the Bushes are dirty. The Obamas are dirty. The Trumps are dirty. Even this current Ukraine scandal gets skirted around that truth in the press. The list of notable names sitting on random Ukrainian corporate boards and collecting checks is very long.



WTF are we still arguing about? The Russia shit is over. Nothing is happening to Trump regarding that. There are hundreds of news stories surrounding it in the news that were run with for 3 years that are proven to be false. Even if in your heart of hearts you believe him to be some kind of Manchurian Candidate for the Kremlin, the investigation into him turned up absolutely nothing. So, why wrap yourself into knots over it.

Ukraine is the current manufactured outrage. It will be dragged out for as long as possible, and nothing concrete will come from it. It has nothing to do with actual law, and is instead political theater meant to hamstring the Executive Branch.
 

transformer

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The fact that some people are still calling the Russian investigation a hoax, after everything we now know, shows you that some folks are willingly delusional. Do some of you ever ask yourself - 'Where is the reverse investigation?' - That should tell you everything you need to know.
There have been four investigations over 2-3 year period on this “Russian collusion.” We were told the whole time that there was evidence of this collusion, that the president committed treason, etc. Not one of these investigations found a damn thing, the Mueller report, the conclusion of the last investigation, was very clear on not finding any collusion. We were lied to for 2+ years. Maybe hoax isn’t the right word, but it’s not far off if indeed incorrect, what would you call this? A sham? A bunch of democrats trying to Reverse an election?

To the last part, if it were reversed I’d be saying the same thing because it’s what is true. Four investigations back it up. Dems are currently doing number five and calling it an “impeachment inquiry”.
 
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eclipze

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There have been four investigations over 2-3 year period on this “Russian collusion.” We were told the whole time that there was evidence of this collusion, that the president committed treason, etc. Not one of these investigations found a damn thing, the Mueller report, the conclusion of the last investigation, was very clear on not finding any collusion. We were lied to for 2+ years. Maybe hoax isn’t the right word, but it’s not far off if indeed incorrect, what would you call this? A sham? A bunch of democrats trying to Reverse an election?

To the last part, if it were reversed I’d be saying the same thing because it’s what is true. Four investigations back it up. Dems are currently doing number five and calling it an “impeachment inquiry”.
No need to throw quotes around impeachment inquiry. It’s official and it’s moving along. You should thank the previews Republican Congress for being so generous in changing the rules to give the Speaker of the House and the majority in all of the committees much more latitude in terms of their investigative powers.
 

transformer

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No need to throw quotes around impeachment inquiry. It’s official and it’s moving along. You should thank the previews Republican Congress for being so generous in changing the rules to give the Speaker of the House and the majority in all of the committees much more latitude in terms of their investigative powers.
I put quotes around it because it’s not official. An official impeachment inquiry would resemble some sort of fair process. We have a partisan group running it and doing the following:

-Chairman blatantly lying to Congress and fabricating transcripts
-reserving all requests for witnesses to only one party. Denying right to the other.
-insisting all questioning happens behind closed doors and is not communicated directly to the public
-pretending to issue subpoenas and threatening “obstruction” if not followed.

Meanwhile, the “other” side is asking for transparency, releasing transcripts and documents, etc. This is political theater. If you think otherwise, please answers this:

- Why are those “inquiring” lying and making things up (trump call transcript to Ukraine president)?

-Why are they demanding that all interviews are secret when the one being accused, Trump, requests it be open?

-Why are they not following normal judicial process?

If they want to do this impeachment then do it!
It’s almost as if the Democrats are obstructing this impeachment inquiry.
 

Foxbat

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No need to throw quotes around impeachment inquiry. It’s official and it’s moving along. You should thank the previews Republican Congress for being so generous in changing the rules to give the Speaker of the House and the majority in all of the committees much more latitude in terms of their investigative powers.
Moving along it certainly is. With no formal vote, the WH and DoJ can dispute subpoenas left and right, and require them to go through the courts. A formal vote on impeachment inquiry would make that far harder to do.

The only win the Dems can get with this is via a smear campaign. They're not going to get anything else, so their only bet, is to publicly smear Trump in the hopes that it leads to his defeat in 2020.

Pelosi is at least smart enough to realize this. Hence why she won't hold a vote. If a vote were held, theres not even a guarantee it would pass. If it did pass, it would give Republicans and the WH subpoena and Interview powers. It would also put the whole process on a path that inevitably leads to Mitch or the entire Senate getting involved, at which point the thing would be dismissed immediately.

The Dems have to play the short game here, because they literally have no long game to play.
 
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eclipze

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I put quotes around it because it’s not official. An official impeachment inquiry would resemble some sort of fair process. We have a partisan group running it and doing the following:

-Chairman blatantly lying to Congress and fabricating transcripts
-reserving all requests for witnesses to only one party. Denying right to the other.
-insisting all questioning happens behind closed doors and is not communicated directly to the public
-pretending to issue subpoenas and threatening “obstruction” if not followed.

Meanwhile, the “other” side is asking for transparency, releasing transcripts and documents, etc. This is political theater. If you think otherwise, please answers this:

- Why are those “inquiring” lying and making things up (trump call transcript to Ukraine president)?

-Why are they demanding that all interviews are secret when the one being accused, Trump, requests it be open?

-Why are they not following normal judicial process?

If they want to do this impeachment then do it!
It’s almost as if the Democrats are obstructing this impeachment inquiry.
Your complaints are misplaced. It is 100% official. Blame the last republican congress for changing the rules. What’s good enough for them should be good enough for whatever majority party holds the House of Representatives. They get set the rules on how impeachment works. It’s in the first article of the Constitution.
 
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transformer

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Your complaints are misplaced. It is 100% official. Blame the last republican congress for changing the rules. What’s good enough for them should be good enough for whatever majority party holds the House of Representatives. They get set the rules on how impeachment works. It’s in the first article of the Constitution.
Wow. Have you even read the constitution? What the dems are doing is not how impeachment works according to the constitution. And these rules were not set by the republicans. Are you seriously suggesting that the Republicans recently changed the first article of the constitution to reflect what the dems are doing now? You need to go read the constitution.
 

autoduelist

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Trump is a dirty motherfucker. Anyone involved in NY politics, in real estate, and foreign investments is dirty. I don't think you'd find many people that would deny that, even among his hardcores.
Absolutely. And, in his favor, he clearly loves America and is trying to reclaim it from a corrupt establishment cartel. I'll take that, because what he does have is a very particular set of skills. Skills he has acquired over a very long career. Skills that make him a nightmare for his political opponents and other countries.

.