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The Wii U Speculation Thread V: The Final Frontier

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Donnie

Member
This is too low, if it were releasing last year it would be easier to swallow, but in 2012, with PS4/XB3 coming in 18-30months, I think there just isn't enough of a lead to give it a real chance...

Wasn't there some sort of surprising bump in performance between these two kits? chopping up a 640sp chip would be something they would plan from the get go, so I am not sure why they wouldn't go with a 480sp chip, as AMD has plenty to choose from... luckily it's speculation, but now your 640sp @ 600mhz (768GFLOPs) sounds like heaven... Damn you BG.

Also if Oban rumor is the Wii U CPU, that means it has dropped from 45nm to 32nm... being a SoC btw isn't surprising at all, seeing how well it worked for 360s.

If rumours are correct the final GPU has dedicated hardware too assist the ALU's with some intensive tasks (lighting perhaps?).
 
The only way for this design to be competitive is for nintendo to strike tech gold and having this thing be a modern day gamecube in terms of how its innards work together even though the on paper compenents don't impress at first.
 

tkscz

Member
360
6GVMS.png


Wii U (I think)
wiiupatent.jpg


COMPARE!!!
 

BurntPork

Banned
LOL. The 640@600 was Fourth Storm I believe. Since I started talking about it I've been at 480@600. And the reason why the didn't/couldn't go with a "480 sp chip" is because none were available till the 6670 which was released at retail after the first Wii U dev kits went out. But again, that's not factoring in Nintendo's customizations as most multi-plats probably won't use them.

And yes it was said there was a bump, but we never got the full context of what that bump came from. It could have been hardware changes allowing them to go from using parts of GLSL 3.3 to using parts of GLSL 4.x.



I'm definitely going to give the Upad it's fair shake. If I can come up with an idea for an Ironman game for Wii U in a few minutes, devs should definitely be able to come up with something interesting for the controller.



Congrats.

When you say viable I do believe that those who prefer a Sony or MS console aren't going to change due to whatever Nintendo does. But the console should still be able to get ports at that time.



Yeah in retrospect Xbox 360 has handled certain things surprisingly well even this late.



Yeah I was going to say that once the association damage was done, Move wouldn't have been able to shake that view.
It would still be odd for them to go with an RV770LE over an RV740 in a situation like that. It's bad enough that it would have twice the ROPs and more texture units than the final product, but twice the memory bandwidth as well? The dev kit would end up noticeably faster in some cases.
 

z0m3le

Banned
LOL. The 640@600 was Fourth Storm I believe. Since I started talking about it I've been at 480@600. And the reason why the didn't/couldn't go with a "480 sp chip" is because none were available till the 6670 which was released at retail after the first Wii U dev kits went out. But again, that's not factoring in Nintendo's customizations as most multi-plats probably won't use them.

And yes it was said there was a bump, but we never got the full context of what that bump came from. It could have been hardware changes allowing them to go from using parts of GLSL 3.3 to using parts of GLSL 4.x.

http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2012/2012051001_AMD_readies_R-series_embedded_APUs.html

That chip, which is basically the A10-4600M is a 32nm 35watt 384sp(ALU) @ 686MHz AND a 4 core 2.3ghz AMD proc... I just can't see Nintendo building a box that could handle 80TDP+ and not use it, a 640sp @ 700MHz would look so much better... ugh, I'm going to bed, maybe things will look better in 7-8 hours.
 
R

Rösti

Unconfirmed Member

BurntPork

Banned
http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2012/2012051001_AMD_readies_R-series_embedded_APUs.html

That chip, which is basically the A10-4600M is a 32nm 35watt 384sp(ALU) @ 686MHz AND a 4 core 2.3ghz AMD proc... I just can't see Nintendo building a box that could handle 80TDP+ and not use it, a 640sp @ 700MHz would look so much better... ugh, I'm going to bed, maybe things will look better in 7-8 hours.
How many times do you have to be told to stop looking at laptop parts before you get it?
 
Rösti;37861402 said:
Nice find. I assume the VC-1 is mainly for their proprietary Blu-ray like disc, though perhaps has something to do with the streaming to the DRC as well. I wonder what level of VC-1 will be used the most, and if Wii U is compatible with all levels.

4971.png


Source: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/wi.../vc1techoverview.aspx#VC1_Profiles_and_Levels
If it's streaming to the DRC, they wouldn't need much more than 480p, correct?

Probably double the bitrate for two controllers, not sure. I'm really fuzzy when it comes to technical details. Don't touch me, you'll get dizzy.
 

StevieP

Banned
My bad. I left out a key point that I meant to say. When I began hypothesizing about a non-traditional GPU and how the baseline might look I went back to the dev kit GPU as a part of the speculation. My thought was that maybe the reason it was underclocked was to simulate the raw power of the final GPU without the extra features. This would be the smart thing to do since the extra features essentially make it more powerful, but there's nothing on the market to simulate that. So taking the underclocked route gave devs the minimum raw capability of what it can do at that time.

This theory could work, if not for the multiple reports of overheating dev kits. Some piece of the puzzle must be missing in this regard lol

2) Decent devs will still offer that as a solution.

I realise publishers generally don't want to throw money at exclusive features without any real gain, however, if Nintendo can convince publishers to exploit both dual screen play AND away-from-tv play for their games then it's a pretty easy step to add Wii pointer controls.

What I mean by this is that if the developer goes to the effort of having the subscreen hold secondary information such that during away-from-tv play that secondary information is in the form of a HUD then they have already built in "single screen" graphics output. From there they just need to add Wii controls. Those who want to play Wiiremote only can play single screen with a HUD, and those who don't get dual screen play.

I believe it can be done without a HUGE investment if a developer wants to take the simplest approach.

You're talking about third parties here. lol

Most won't, and will wonder how Nintendo does what they do with the hardware they have. Nintendo knew full well the issues with the 360's CPU. Wasn't Out of Order, there was no I/O controller (could be wrong about this one), no audio DSP (Didn't audio take 16% of the 360's CPU?), I'm surprised the 360 was able to handle what it did.

In some cases, audio ate through only a few percentile of the 360 CPU. In other cases, where there were more audio streams (like racing games) audio processing could eat through an entire core. This is where the DSPs come into play, if devs use them.
 

Donnie

Member
It would still be odd for them to go with an RV770LE over an RV740 in a situation like that. It's bad enough that it would have twice the ROPs and more texture units than the final product, but twice the memory bandwidth as well? The dev kit would end up noticeably faster in some cases.

We don't have any details on ROPs/texture units or bandwidth and I don't think we should make any assumptions on them based on the number of ALU's.
 
Regardless of the underlying technology, the overall effect of the visuals were still wholly underwhelming. Neither Kameo or PD0 really looked like a 10x increase from late Xbox 1 games like Riddick, Conker, Ninja Gaiden, KUF, etc. All I saw were Xbox-like assets, pulling Xbox-like effects at a resolution Xbox even occasionally hit.

Would you also "safely call" 3DS hardware a "next generation" from PSP technology wise because RER pulls off shader effects that'd be impossible on PSP?
This is a derail, i already addressed z0m313 giving the Project Gotham 3 example, which is a better representation of generational leap than Kameo or PD Zero were. But to humor you lunchwithyuzo.


10X Increase it's a rough estimate or ball park figure typically used in regards to the amount of general processing power that is more or less expected going from what cycle to the other. Is not like you pick a ruler that goes up to 10x and say this is this or that is x gen.

Both projects started life as GC games. Passed on to Xbox 1 and finally launched as Xbox 360 ones, so of course they shared some assets. Regarding the PSP vs 3DS scenario: Although Kameo and PD Zero weren't even close to tap the max capabilities of the console both games had substantial polygon counts much larger than all those Xbox titles you mentioned, were rendered in a higher resolution (not true HD though), had more complex shaders, featured effects and technical features not supported or doable under gaming conditions on the Xbox 1. And they used substantially higher memory budgets. So it wasn't just a case of one category that got boosted, like the more advanced shaders of your PSP vs 3DS example, since large improvements extended to many aspects of these games visuals. Reality is, you can't pile Kameo and PD Zero along ports like King Kong, Tony Hawk or Tiger Woods .
 

Azure J

Member
bg, what's your guestimate looking like on the overall components within Wii U? Same as ever or should I take that last post about a 480SP/600MHz GPU to heart?

Meanwhile, since the thread got onto a good point for a few posts:

I'd kill for a next gen Wii Remote and Nunchuck if the following could be done with it:

Wii Remote:

MotionPlus built in as standard (Wii Remote+ is already a precedent)
Diamond shaped 4 button layout on the bottom most part of the Remote (1, 2, 3, 4)
"Extra" B Trigger like button above said trigger; digital
More rounded form factor to accomodate horizontal style gameplay with one remote
Larger NES equivalent D-Pad
Better speaker that can double as a mic

Nunchuk

Wireless
Clickable analog stick
IR pointer on the front.
MotionPlus+ caliber sensor/gyrometer inside
Z becomes a GCN like pressure sensitive trigger under the grip
 

Conor 419

Banned
I don't see Mother 4 anywhere... :(

I do genuinely believe there's a good shot that Nintendo put Monolith and Brownie Brown to collab on Mother 4. Nintendo have been rocking the C team lately, with Sin and Punishment, Punch Out and Donkey Kong have all made triumphant returns this gen, Mother must join them.

Opinions?
 

Donnie

Member
Bg is saying that the traditional part of the GPU is based on the 6670.

I'm not sure that he was saying it might be based on it or just of a similar performance/feature set (I suppose it comes down to what IGN said as that's what he's referring to). IF it was based on that GPU it still can't be assumed that ROPS, texture units or bandwidth would be the same in WiiU's GPU. Like you said, why have a final GPU with half the ROPS ect of the dev kit, the answer is they wouldn't. So either that GPU wasn't the WiiU GPU or its modified enough to have more ROPS ect.
 

AlStrong

Member
For instance, we did not have deferred shading at the start of this passing gen.

Well... that's not entirely accurate. Gladiator used it on Xbox. :p It may have been the first. Since NV2A didn't support MRTs, they had to pack the attributes into a render target, but it's the principle of how they render.

Perfect Dark Zero had a custom deferred renderer.

edit: Checking further back, Shrek 1 used deferred shading as well.

Anyways, it was around, just not very widely used. I mean, at the time most of the stuff was just going to be fixed function lighting from the DX7 days.
 
Not to undermine GPW's work but there hasn't even really been anything that newsworthy this whole weekend. It's been mostly rehashed rumors from the previous week and seemingly endless banter about console power.

Yeah, 7350 onward has been pretty weak. Hell, only one of the below is really news:

#7461: Article on "About Your Shape 2013" for Wii U

#8016: Nintendo's Tadashi Sugiyama (F-Zero X, Ice Climbers, Doki Doki Panic, Wii Fit) involved in a Wii U project

#8725: The Hardest Platformer Ever will be downloadable on Wii U.

#9101: Hiphopgamer claims Splinter Cell 6 for Wii U

(well, also the still-3core thing and the linkedin stuff just posted today)


I might have missed something, mind, as I've been studying for a final, planting corn, costume-preparing, and playing excessively with GIMP.


bg, what's your guestimate looking like on the overall components within Wii U? Same as ever or should I take that last post about a 480SP/600MHz GPU to heart?

Meanwhile, since the thread got onto a good point for a few posts:

I'd kill for a next gen Wii Remote and Nunchuck if the following could be done with it:

Wii Remote:

MotionPlus built in as standard (Wii Remote+ is already a precedent)
Diamond shaped 4 button layout on the bottom most part of the Remote (1, 2, 3, 4)
"Extra" B Trigger like button above said trigger; digital
More rounded form factor to accomodate horizontal style gameplay with one remote
Larger NES equivalent D-Pad
Better speaker that can double as a mic

Nunchuk

Wireless
Clickable analog stick
IR pointer on the front.
MotionPlus+ caliber sensor/gyrometer inside
Z becomes a GCN like pressure sensitive trigger under the grip

I would have just made the Wii Remote and Nunchuk similar to a GCN controller cut in half with an extra shoulder (id est, each gets one analog stick, two finger buttons, four thumb buttons -- dpad in the case of the nunchuk instead of the buttons), but retaining the added features and copying over the IR camera and gyro to the nunchuk, perhaps also adding magnetometers to both.
 
Azure I would say essentially the same as my early speculation with a change on 2GB of system memory and a GPU like what I'm speculating on. I have a pretty decent idea of the graphical capabilities, I just don't have the tangible specs. That's why I've said z0m3le has been too high with his speculation.

Nah, it won't even in the patent diagrams it is inside the bezel. AR stuff it's a perfect fit for the subscreen. Another weird decision on Nintendo's part.

Pssh. Nintendo seems to be recycling parts of the Wii patent that don't even fit with what we've heard about the console. I wouldn't read too much into that until they say for certain there is no rear camera.

It would still be odd for them to go with an RV770LE over an RV740 in a situation like that. It's bad enough that it would have twice the ROPs and more texture units than the final product, but twice the memory bandwidth as well? The dev kit would end up noticeably faster in some cases.

They may have needed it for the amount of memory in the dev kit. And once again Donnie says what I would have said. :p

And I'm not saying it would be based on the 6670. Just that the final in my view would share similarities to it. Primarily the ALU count.

http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2012/2012051001_AMD_readies_R-series_embedded_APUs.html

That chip, which is basically the A10-4600M is a 32nm 35watt 384sp(ALU) @ 686MHz AND a 4 core 2.3ghz AMD proc... I just can't see Nintendo building a box that could handle 80TDP+ and not use it, a 640sp @ 700MHz would look so much better... ugh, I'm going to bed, maybe things will look better in 7-8 hours.

LOL. I think it will still look the same later. I also believe the Wii case can handle more than its 18W TDP and GC's case with its ~40W? TDP. Most likely depends on how quiet they want to be. In fact I would argue the noise level is the bigger limiter than the current case size.
 

AlStrong

Member
Most likely depends on how quiet they want to be. In fact I would argue the noise level is the bigger limiter than the current case size.

I'd say the two are interrelated considering it's the size of the case that will determine how big the fan can be. The rate of air movement will ultimately determine the amount of heat that can be dissipated from the system, and as you already know, the CFM rating (cubic feet of air per minute) of a particular fan size will depend on its rotational speed (fan size x RPM -> noise level).

:p

something something noise level of Nintendo fans and Reggie dressed up as a PikMin (RPM)
:D
 

BurntPork

Banned
So is everybody back to realizing that the WiiU really won't be all that powerful? At this point I'm having a hard time believing that it will be viable in the market after the PS4/720 take hold. At least E3 is a few weeks away.

In other news I graduated from college with a degree in Chemistry. I did great (3.495 cumulative) and I have a job lined up already! I can finally get back into doing what I love best: gaming.
Still looking like 2-3 times 360 like I've thought for months...
 

z0m3le

Banned
Azure I would say essentially the same as my early speculation with a change on 2GB of system memory and a GPU like what I'm speculating on. I have a pretty decent idea of the graphical capabilities, I just don't have the tangible specs. That's why I've said z0m3le has been too high with his speculation.


LOL. I think it will still look the same later. I also believe the Wii case can handle more than its 18W TDP and GC's case with its ~40W? TDP. Most likely depends on how quiet they want to be. In fact I would argue the noise level is the bigger limiter than the current case size.

The GCN was pretty quiet, the Wii even more so, but Wii U also has a larger fan and a bigger power supply than Wii, inside a bigger box, I thought beyond3D whatever site it was believed that it could handle 120TDP, of course I agree that it could be just that, but they could probably fit innards you are speculating on inside the Wii's case, also not to insult you, but a thread or two ago you speculated at the Wii U having something below 400GFLOPs, so while I don't have any insider sources helping me make educated guesses, I do believe that your speculations change a bit too much for me to just take your word for it, also I pretty much hope you are wrong, because its very short sighted of Nintendo if true.
 

StevieP

Banned
The GCN was pretty quiet, the Wii even more so, but Wii U also has a larger fan and a bigger power supply than Wii, inside a bigger box, I thought beyond3D whatever site it was believed that it could handle 120TDP, of course I agree that it could be just that, but they could probably fit innards you are speculating on inside the Wii's case, also not to insult you, but a thread or two ago you speculated at the Wii U having something below 400GFLOPs, so while I don't have any insider sources helping me make educated guesses, I do believe that your speculations change a bit too much for me to just take your word for it, also I pretty much hope you are wrong, because its very short sighted of Nintendo if true.

I think it was "400 gf + whatever extra oomph the 'dedicated stuff' nets" previously
 

StevieP

Banned
Yeah, 7350 onward has been pretty weak. Hell, only one of the below is really news:

#7461: Article on "About Your Shape 2013" for Wii U

#8016: Nintendo's Tadashi Sugiyama (F-Zero X, Ice Climbers, Doki Doki Panic, Wii Fit) involved in a Wii U project

#8725: The Hardest Platformer Ever will be downloadable on Wii U.

#9101: Hiphopgamer claims Splinter Cell 6 for Wii U

(well, also the still-3core thing and the linkedin stuff just posted today)

Thanks for this, btw... how did we pull like 2000 posts with... gah! Nintendo OT Community Discussion should be the name of the next thread, which at this rate needs to be started 36 minutes from now :p
 

Oddduck

Member
I'm sure Tadashi Sugiyama is doing another Wii Fit sequel. I mean they showed Wii Fit during the Wii U presentation at last E3 and how you could use the controller with it.

I doubt he's doing anything interesting.
 
Oh great I come back to the thread to catch up and Uncharted 3 becomes the new goal post for WiiU

Damn you guys gave up on WiiU so fast :|

Stop it Nintendo fans, just stop it SMH
 
Thanks for this, btw... how did we pull like 2000 posts with... gah! Nintendo OT Community Discussion should be the name of the next thread, which at this rate needs to be started 36 minutes from now :p

We actually had a pretty slow weekend in terms of posting. Saturday in particular was the slowest day since Thread The Third.
 
This theory could work, if not for the multiple reports of overheating dev kits. Some piece of the puzzle must be missing in this regard lol

Oh yeah. On our end there is definitely things missing. I'm trying to fill in those gaps based on what I know now.

That said I mentioned before when I talk about the power it still ignores the tweaks that have been made.
 
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