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News TheVerge: After Xbox testimony, Apple tells Microsoft to put up or shut up

Jan 16, 2020
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R&D costs should be factored into the cost of any product. It doesn't come free, and the funds will need to be replaced if you ever want to develop another product.

Not when you're trying to argue the difference between a general purpose vs special purpose device. And they don't report on this in their financial reports so I don't know why you think they would here

The context here is very obvious given the talk of sales and margins. It's whether after the cost of BOM, logistics etc. does the sale of an xbox console produce a profit, in comparison to something like an iPhone which does produce a profit with every phone sold.

They're not asking whether they're recouping R&D costs. It's about the profitability of the hardware.
 
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Jan 29, 2019
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No, they are sold for more than they cost to manufacture. That still don't means that they make money. You still need to account R&D and customer service. MS spend $1.15 billion to fix RRoD alone. That's more than 10mln xboxes sold with 100$ profit (which never happened) just to pay for that.
Losing money because your hardware fail is not a strategy, they messed up.
 
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Shelookdlvl18

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Nov 8, 2020
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Did they secretly sold 160million xbox ones? or is the Series S secretly the best selling console of all times?

I would be surprised if we learned something we don't already know.
No, of course not anywhere in that realm. It would likely be quite a bit higher than most here believe though.

I can't see MS providing the numbers here anyway as it's not particularly relevant to what Apple is asking for.
I think if that came to pass like that it would only raise console prices so that they make at least 1$ per unit and the argument is defeated? I don't think that this is even relevant how much (if any) the console manufacturer make or lose per unit, loss leaders aren't new, they're an old marketing tool that allows sellers to bring people in hoping that it will entice their clients to make them money, you don't have to use them.
I didn't say that it's a winning strategy, only that it is indeed the one Epic is going with. In this specific instance in the case, Epic is trying to justify why Apple is greedy for their policy, while exonerating MS, and Sony. Despite having many of the same policies.
While it's nice to concentrate on Sony and MS, they are not alone and Nintendo has not lost money on their consoles for (at least the Wii or Switch, I believe the Wii U was losing money on hardware sales)... Either way, as technology advances during the generation the manufacturers come to a point where they make money on the units they sell, or at least they break even.
I'm not the one concentrating on MS and Sony. Epic and Apple are. Epic addressed Nintendo early by saying that it believed Nintendo to operate differently, and for the most part within it's own sphere.
 

kuncol02

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Apr 4, 2020
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Losing money because your hardware fail is not a strategy, they messed up.
And? That's just example of one of hundreds of costs of selling hardware outside of cost of manufacturing it.
XBox is also always priced very aggressively. In 2013 you could buy XOne for less than 2/3 of PS4 price. I actually bought XOneX with all GoW games and Modern Warfare (it was brand new game then) for around 50$ more than price of base PS4.
 
Jan 16, 2020
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And? That's just example of one of hundreds of costs of selling hardware outside of cost of manufacturing it.
XBox is also always priced very aggressively. In 2013 you could buy XOne for less than 2/3 of PS4 price. I actually bought XOneX with all GoW games and Modern Warfare (it was brand new game then) for around 50$ more than price of base PS4.

Hardware failures aren't unique to special purpose devices. It's irrelevent
 

KingT731

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Jan 9, 2018
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No, they are sold for more than they cost to manufacture. That still don't means that they make money. You still need to account R&D and customer service. MS spend $1.15 billion to fix RRoD alone. That's more than 10mln xboxes sold with 100$ profit (which never happened) just to pay for that.
The last time Apple released the number of iPhones they sell per year was in 2018 and that number was 2.2 Billion.
 
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TimFL

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Nov 3, 2013
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Could you imagine the fallout if this is actually a trap that Microsoft's lawyers have set? Apple are making a big issue about whether Xbox is sold at a profit or loss, which is surely the point Microsoft and Epic want to drive home themselves as a distinction between idevices and other walled gardens.

Even if it turns out Microsoft's protection over their data gets their witness removed from the case, surely Apple have now made the case for hardware profitability being at least a partially determining factor for justification of a 30% tariff for a store in a walled garden, no? Which considering they mark-up their hardware so heavily, despite huge volume selling, feels like they aren't helping themselves IMHO.
This is the first thing that sprung to my mind when reading about this topic. I have no idea how much money Apple pockets for their devices, but it sure as hell ain‘t at a loss to „justify 30%“. That being said there is more to it than hardware margins… it‘s not just iPhones they sell, they‘ve also built a huge thriving ecosystem for users and developers alike that also has maintenance and R&D costs attached to it.
 
Jan 21, 2019
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Nintendo makes profit on hardware, so?
Much of Nintendo's hardware is underpowered, and often times old, and doesn't have the tech MS and Sony put into theirs.

Good luck, because PC gaming market is less profitable than consoles. It is a big market, but there is so many games there that it is hard to dominate. People who think PC gaming has untapped money, has no idea what they are talking about. Bethesda basically abandoned PC gaming once they realised Sony And MS pay them much more for console games.

One thing is for sure, Xbox customers have no idea hoe hard it is to make money in the PC market.

The average number of PC gamers is growing and I believe currently overshadows the console market. Secondly, Xbox exclusives have only been truly saturating that market for only a few years now and Sony is also on their way in supporting the market. So I don't think the numbers for platform exclusive games has really had the time to mature to even make a blanket statement like that. Often times, I turn to Sony and Microsoft for great content while other times I turn to specific developers. The PC market is saturated with a great many of games, but only few stand out amongst the crowd.
 
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