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Thief 4 - First 'Screenshot'

Gorgon

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Zeliard said:
I don't know that a game that focuses almost purely on staying away from enemies, in a gen where we've had so many "blow up whatever the fuck is in front of you" games, is terribly accessible to that many.

Pure stealth (or at least a very dominant focus on stealth) is a lot to ask for these days - that alone is going to make it somewhat non-accessible, if not entirely uninteresting, for a lot of modern gamers.

It's not that Thief is the pinnacle of complexity - it's that the type of patience it asks for is a crapshoot to ask from a lot of gamers nowadays. As a modern example, look at all the complaints leveled at Demon's Souls due to the patience it demands out of the player in navigating the environment, where it asks you do so slowly and with consideration for your surroundings.

Gamers as a whole have lost a great deal in the capacity for actually learning a game's systems, as well as traversing levels that aren't A ---> B corridor linearity. Hopefully this won't compromise this version, but I can't get my hopes up for a legitimate stealth game these days (MGS4 didn't quite cut it, and let's not even speak of Splinter Cell: Conviction).
You're confusing "acessibility" with lack of patience. They are different. You can watch a complex movie and understand its philosofical underpinings, but that doesn't mean you can avoid falling asleep after 10 minutes.

The Thief games were very acessible, it's just that their very slow nature, reliance on level memory, and total reliance on stealth gameplay would turn a lot of people away. Very different things.
 

Sh1ner

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this has made my nerd day complete! I was wondering when, will with hold judgement until we see gameplay. I hope they stay away from dumb enemies like zombies and monsters. Loved the frogmen and standard soldiers. Only played thief 3.
 

ZombieFred

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Gorgon said:
Well, I would't exactely call that as "complex" per se. The big levels with no automap yes, I have to agree they required focused attention from the player in a way that is not seen these days. The different paths and so on isn't realy anything I would call complex per se.

In general, the Thief games were pretty accessible and streamlined as they were. But then again, just my opinion.
I feel that a lot of games today just don't have the game design like we use to back from the late 90s to just before this generation. Even then, they were accessible and only had a small learning curve to allow a casual player to understand the point of the game and a lot of them were still successful financially and high appraisals. I feel a lot of publishers/developers now underestimate what the casual audiences could do today. Only a few handful titles each year still have that magical feeling of how open and complex that some map designs are today, but it’s nothing as it used to be.
 

Zeliard

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Gorgon said:
Well, I would't exactely call that as "complex" per se. The big levels with no automap yes, I have to agree they required focused attention from the player in a way that is not seen these days. The different paths and so on isn't realy anything I would call complex per se.

In general, the Thief games were pretty accessible and streamlined as they were. But then again, just my opinion.
Again, try comparing it to games out of this gen. "Big levels with no automap" is very significant alone. The definitions for streamlined and accessibility in gaming have changed - what was once viewed as relatively accessible would now be considered complex, like Thief.

Dark Sector is accessible.

Gorgon said:
You're confusing "acessibility" with lack of patience.
No, I'm not confusing anything, as they obviously go hand-in-hand. What demands more patience will naturally be less accessible, because you have to bring something yourself to make it more accessible to you (in this case, a sense of patience).

What would be more accessible is something that demanded no patience out of the player, like your typical AAA console shooter, where you're tasked with navigating a straight line and target-shooting.
 

Gorgon

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ZombieFred said:
I feel that a lot of games today just don't have the game design like we use to back from the late 90s to just before this generation. Even then, they were accessible and only had a small learning curve to allow a casual player to understand the point of the game and a lot of them were still successful financially and high appraisals. I feel a lot of publishers/developers now underestimate what the casual audiences could do today. Only a few handful titles each year still have that magical feeling of how open and complex that some map designs are today, but it’s nothing as it used to be.
Totally agree.
 

The Technomancer

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Gorgon said:
Hum, you're right about that one. I can see an automap feature beying added to Thief 4 lol.
Problem isn't that we're worried about something like an automap, we're worried about it getting the Conviction treatment where level design is basically reduced to "run through a series of linear rooms, hide in the shadows of each, kill some dudes"
 

Gorgon

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Zeliard said:
No, I'm not confusing anything, as they obviously go hand-in-hand. What demands more patience will naturally be less accessible, because you have to bring something yourself to make it more accessible to you (in this case, a sense of patience).

What would be more accessible is something that demanded no patience out of the player, like your typical AAA console shooter, where you're tasked with navigating a straight line and target-shooting.
If that was the case every FPS out there would now be a on-rails shooter for the Wii. The "problem" with Thief is simply that it is slow as fuck. There is no "difficulty" or "complexity" level associated with it (except big levels with no map). Heck, even Ken Levine worked in Thief and said he didn't like Thief that much because he never liked slow, stealth based games. I'm pretty sure Levine is smart enough to easily play Thief, no?
 

DaBuddaDa

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I just want in Thief 4 for them to put you somewhere in a large map, tell you "go into the mansion and steal that expensive thing," and kick you in the butt and say "ok, now get on with it." No mini-map, no checkpointing and no floating icons showing you where to go. To get inside, you can disable the guards and sneak through the front, you can climb through a window on a balcony, you could climb down a chimney, etc. The direction you take is up to you, and your goal is hidden and must be discovered.
 

Gorgon

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The_Technomancer said:
Problem isn't that we're worried about something like an automap, we're worried about it getting the Conviction treatment where level design is basically reduced to "run through a series of linear rooms, hide in the shadows of each, kill some dudes"
I know what the problem is and we all understand what the fears are for Thief 4. We simply don't agree on some perspectives.
 

Ogs

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If the debut trailer for this is Garrett jumping from some clock tower, landing in the middle of some gaurds, doing some acrobatics around them and killing each with throwing knifes, to be chased off by a new wave of gaurds doing wall jumps around the city, im gonna be pissed.
 

neorej

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DaBuddaDa said:
I just want in Thief 4 for them to put you somewhere in a large map, tell you "go into the mansion and steal that expensive thing," and kick you in the butt and say "ok, now get on with it." No mini-map, no checkpointing and no floating icons showing you where to go. To get inside, you can disable the guards and sneak through the front, you can climb through a window on a balcony, you could climb down a chimney, etc. The direction you take is up to you, and your goal is hidden and must be discovered.
Basically... Hitman?
 

Gorgon

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Ogs said:
If the debut trailer for this is Garrett jumping from some clock tower, landing in the middle of some gaurds, doing some acrobatics around them and killing each with throwing knifes, to be chased off by a new wave of gaurds doing wall jumps around the city, im gonna be pissed.
I think you're gona be pissed.
 

Zeliard

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Gorgon said:
If that was the case every FPS out there would now be a on-rails shooter for the Wii. The "problem" with Thief is simply that it is slow as fuck. There is no "difficulty" or "complexity" level associated with it (except big levels with no map). Heck, even Ken Levine worked in Thief and said he didn't like Thief that much because he never liked slow, stealth based games. I'm pretty sure Levine is smart enough to easily play Thief, no?
I think we're going in circles here. :D

Must be some error in communication. You wrote earlier:

"The Thief games were very acessible, it's just that their very slow nature, reliance on level memory, and total reliance on stealth gameplay would turn a lot of people away. Very different things."

That's like writing: "look at all the ways this series would be inaccessible to many today - but it's still very accessible!"

"Very slow nature, reliance on level memory, total reliance on stealth gameplay".... these are things that make it inaccessible! You even added yourself that they would turn a lot of people away! That's the definition of inaccessible. If you wanted to make it accessible, then you would remove or modify these things, so that many more people would attempt to play them. And that's where the worry for Thief 4 comes in (they want to make money, presumably).
 

DaBuddaDa

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neorej said:
Basically... Hitman?
Mmmmm yeah. Well, basically Thief. I hope this team is treating their source material as well as the Deus Ex 3 team is treating theirs.
 

Sh1ner

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Ogs said:
If the debut trailer for this is Garrett jumping from some clock tower, landing in the middle of some gaurds, doing some acrobatics around them and killing each with throwing knifes, to be chased off by a new wave of gaurds doing wall jumps around the city, im gonna be pissed.
The I can KILL EVERYONE BUT NOW I AM RUNNING TO ADD TENSION angle. Yea I will be pissed too. He better be a thief first to everything else.
 

From The Dust

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DaBuddaDa said:
I just want in Thief 4 for them to put you somewhere in a large map, tell you "go into the mansion and steal that expensive thing," and kick you in the butt and say "ok, now get on with it." No mini-map, no checkpointing and no floating icons showing you where to go. To get inside, you can disable the guards and sneak through the front, you can climb through a window on a balcony, you could climb down a chimney, etc. The direction you take is up to you, and your goal is hidden and must be discovered.
hmmm, I like everything you said except the no mini-map. I'd like some kind of map for open games. instead of highlighting your target, they should have you locate it based on descriptions of buildings and people. although that would mean buildings have to be unique. but that would make for a better game
 
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Ogs said:
If the debut trailer for this is Garrett jumping from some clock tower, landing in the middle of some gaurds, doing some acrobatics around them and killing each with throwing knifes, to be chased off by a new wave of gaurds doing wall jumps around the city, im gonna be pissed.
Sounds about right, only when Garrett kills the guards a tiger claw graphic streaks across the screen accompanied by a growl.
 

Zeliard

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Confidence Man said:
Sounds about right, only when Garrett kills the guards a tiger claw graphic streaks across the screen accompanied by a growl.
This is the new shit.
 

DaBuddaDa

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From The Dust said:
hmmm, I like everything you said except the no mini-map. I'd like some kind of map for open games. instead of highlighting your target, they should have you locate it based on descriptions of buildings and people. although that would mean buildings have to be unique. but that would make for a better game
To clarify, I mean no mini-map showing you where guards, NPCs, items, etc. are. A map showing you the basic structure/geographical layout of the level/zone/area you're in would be fine.
 

Sn4ke_911

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DennisK4 said:
Console version?
Yep, you can clearly see a PS3 and 360 controller.

On the left it looks like they are playing on PS3 and on the right side on 360.
 

Otacon

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Sn4ke_911 said:
"Guys, remember, if you ever leak screens of the games we are working on, please, blur them...at least partially."

never played any of the previous Thief games (as I was never a big PC gamer), but love stealth gameplay and think they would be exactly my type of game
hopefully we'll see a trailer or demo next week
 

From The Dust

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DaBuddaDa said:
To clarify, I mean no mini-map showing you where guards, NPCs, items, etc. are. A map showing you the basic structure/geographical layout of the level/zone/area you're in would be fine.
aye. a game that forces you to scope out the territory and actually fucking think. I would like that. they should include a method to mark your maps, but the catch is people constantly move around, forcing you the be quick and decisive
 

Sn4ke_911

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an interesting comment on RPS

"Sources near the project (on it, really) say:

There is a light gem.
The 3rd person was a test, it’s not the case anymore.
The bow is the animation. He’s taking out the bow at that time. He holds it a bit slanted ” / “.
The light wasn’t properly done in this build, so it’s supposed to be dark, that’s what the red line says in the top left corner."
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=116778&page=4
 

Zeliard

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"The 3rd person was a test, it’s not the case anymore."

Wonder if this means first-person only, or you can switch between the two.
 

Dennis

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Ogs said:
If the debut trailer for this is Garrett jumping from some clock tower, landing in the middle of some gaurds, doing some acrobatics around them and killing each with throwing knifes, to be chased off by a new wave of gaurds doing wall jumps around the city, im gonna be pissed.
Assassins Thief ?
 

Gorgon

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Zeliard said:
I think we're going in circles here. :D

Must be some error in communication. You wrote earlier:

"The Thief games were very acessible, it's just that their very slow nature, reliance on level memory, and total reliance on stealth gameplay would turn a lot of people away. Very different things."

That's like writing: "look at all the ways this series would be inaccessible to many today - but it's still very accessible!"

"Very slow nature, reliance on level memory, total reliance on stealth gameplay".... these are things that make it inaccessible! You even added yourself that they would turn a lot of people away! That's the definition of inaccessible. If you wanted to make it accessible, then you would remove or modify these things, so that many more people would attempt to play them. And that's where the worry for Thief 4 comes in (they want to make money, presumably).
Let me put it this way: when I watch a stupid Holywwod action movie it bores me to death. Is it a problem of accessibility? No, it's a problem of taste. I'm pretty sure there is nothing in Stalone's Cobra that I can't understand or that makes it "complex" or inacessible". It's just BORING.

That is the "problem" with Thief. It doesn't have amost no action. Its slow as fuck. Its just stealth and slow movement. Most people get BORED. It has nothing to do with complexity or lack of accessibility. The only accessibility factor that I do recognize is the big levels with no map. The rest is not a complexity problem.

Anyway, we will spend the rest of our lives discussing this. We can just as well move on to more interesting things :)
 

Zeliard

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Gorgon said:
Let me put it this way: when I watch a stupid Holywwod action movie it bores me to death. Is it a problem of accessibility? No, it's a problem of taste. I'm pretty sure there is nothing in Stalone's Cobra that I can't understand or that makes it "complex" or inacessible". It's just BORING.

That is the "problem" with Thief. It doesn't have amost no action. Its slow as fuck. Its just stealth and slow movement. Most people get BORED. It has nothing to do with complexity or lack of accessibility. The only accessibility factor that I do recognize is the big levels with no map. The rest is not a complexity problem.

Anyway, we will spend the rest of our lives discussing this. We can just as well move on to more interesting things :)
I understand exactly what you mean, but I'm simply saying my worry is that they'll feel the need to make it more accessible regardless, and the way they will do that is by trivializing the stealth portions so that more of the action-loving crowd can get in on it. We can argue over the semantical definitions of accessibility and complexity, and how they've changed over time, but that's not the crux of the issue.

Just look at Splinter Cell: Conviction. It's the perfect example. A series formerly heavy on stealth and tactical play that essentially turned into some extremely simplistic, linear game with emphasis on shooting, because Ubi felt the need to try and sell it to everyone. Money talks, especially this gen, where the consoles have such a dominant market value.

You emphasize the notion yourself by saying that a lot of people find stealth boring - so if Eidos wants to make money with Thief 4 then they'll remedy that the most effective way they can, which is to offer more action-oriented options to get through the entire game as opposed to focusing on stealth.

Remains to be seen how it all turns out, but again, a proper stealth game these days is a lot to ask for.
 

Gorgon

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Zeliard said:
I understand exactly what you mean, but I'm simply saying my worry is that they'll feel the need to make it more accessible regardless, and the way they will do that is by trivializing the stealth portions so that more of the action-loving crowd can get in on it. We can argue over the semantical definitions of accessibility and complexity, and how they've changed over time, but that's not the crux of the issue.

Just look at Splinter Cell: Conviction. It's the perfect example. A series formerly heavy on stealth and tactical play that essentially turned into some extremely simplistic, linear game with emphasis on shooting, because Ubi felt the need to try and sell it to everyone. Money talks, especially this gen, where the consoles have such a dominant market value.

You emphasize the notion yourself by saying that a lot of people find stealth boring - so if Eidos wants to make money with Thief 4 then they'll remedy that the most effective way they can, which is to offer more action-oriented options to get through the entire game as opposed to focusing on stealth.

Remains to be seen how it all turns out, but again, a proper stealth game these days is a lot to ask for.
Oh, but I totally agree with you that Thief 4 will be quite different in ways that we'll all bitch about. What we were discussing here is more of a different perspective on semantics lol.
 

Zeliard

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Gorgon said:
Oh, but I totally agree with you that Thief 4 will be quite different in ways that we'll all bitch about. What we were discussing here is more of a different perspective on semantics lol.
It's all good. <3
 

Grisby

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Nothing to say about the photo as it shows nothing.

I really enjoyed SC: Conviction, but I doubt Garrett will be able to move as fast as Sam.
 

Azih

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Thief 1 had the best story
Thief 2 had the best gameplay
Thief 3 had the best level.

Let's see what you can do THi4f!
 

Vinci

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afternoon delight said:
Never got to experience the original series. The game mechanics sound excellent, like a mix of MGS and Deus Ex. Can't wait.
Go play the original games, now. I mean now. They were fucking stellar. And if this game in any way cheapens the series, I would like everyone involved to die in a fire. The Thief games were my favorite PC titles for years.