TLOU (Before & After E3 demo) MAJOR differences!

Feb 26, 2007
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#51
Two other things about that vid that seem off after watching more play throughs just now of the same level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8DzM3Nh7Ec&t=18m18s

1.) the part where a bunch of them are standing there shouldn't happen at all. Moment you see them it should trigger a sequence where they disperse to search the area. So what he showed in the vid was a glitch.

2.) If you click the link above, you'll see the field of vision for enemies is extremely sensitive. They can see you even in their peripheral vision. The indicator goes off when they walk passed you even if you're hidden. So not sure what the guy in the vid is on about.
 
Dec 31, 2012
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#53
How do you define bad?

For me, good AI is not about how realistically it reacts to normal stimuli (ie - like real life), rather, how well it works within the confines of the games systems. There is a big difference between sensitive AI and AI designed for fun.

The AI in The Last of Us works brilliantly, I think, offering a perfect blend of semi-realistic behavior with patterns and reactions that allow the player a proper chance at success.
I define bad when a situation doesn't make any sort of sense and it doesn't favor gameplay. When the enemies are just dumb or seem to have some kind of disability, as was the case I described.

I understand the choice of them ignoring NPC's, but I don't understand the choice of being able to strangle an enemy 1 meter away from his friend and get no reaction or consequence from doing so.
 
Oct 12, 2010
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#55
Yeah.. That "expresses fear" part was very obvious to me when playing the game. They did not fear for their lives at all. Instead they invited others of their group to join in on the slaughter.
 

CorrisD

badchoiceboobies
Mar 14, 2010
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#56
I had plenty of people run away from me and hide, I didn't even see one and he jumped out of nowhere and gave me a bit of a smack around the room before I was able to smash his head in with a pipe.

Some of it does seem toned down though.
 
Feb 26, 2007
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#57
Yeah.. That "expresses fear" part was very obvious to me when playing the game. They did not fear for their lives at all. Instead they invited others of their group to join in on the slaughter.
I really don't get these posts. Playing on Hard now, but even on Normal this was not the case. So many times I'd get a hit on or two, and enemies would leg it or simply hide and not pop out from cover until they heard my clip run empty. It happened countless times as well, which is why I don't understand why some claim the enemies have no fear.

They show many instances of it. Especially when you have a gun and are in a trigger frenzy. Obviously a few of them try their luck brawler style, but usually not without their comrades providing suppressing fire or darting around also trying to mow you down.
 
May 28, 2013
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#58
AI was probably the only glaring flaw in TLOU for me. This video just puts the cherry on top, really. I almost feel a bit annoyed that I didn't get to play that game.

At least the empty clip click and the shotgun execution stuff are still in, even if the latter just leads to them punching someone aiming a shotgun at their head if you don't do it quick enough.
 
Oct 18, 2011
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#60
The AI in this game is so dumb and irrational, like the enemy almost seeing Joel behind the counter and instead of walking towards him he walks in the room next to him

And the roughness/violence would have added so much to the overall tone of the game.. is the brick takedown still in the game?

Still a great game, but the potential for so much more is there
 
Jun 27, 2004
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#66
I can see how some things might look cool in a promo video but not work in final gameplay. Like being afraid of Joel when he has a gun and they're melee enemies. At first it'd be like "sweet!", but what would the gameplay implications be? That all melee enemies run and hide and you get to track them down cowering in some corner?

Same for the FOV, it'd just make the game infinitely harder if they had accurate senses. To the point where only a small margin of players liked it. It'd be interesting to see what would happen if they'd release a patch with "accurate" hearing and vision. I'm pretty sure the game would break.

The shotgun-wrestling was a bit of an annoyance too, but I'm sure from a gameplay point of view it's not entirely unproblematic. What if you choose to have a rifle and gun equipped and you wrestle a shotgun? Would it be temporarily equipped and changed when you equip something else and moved to the backpack? Would it replace your slotted weapon? What if you change to a brick, and want to go back to the shotgun? Or do a melee weapon attack and want to go back?

The only thing here I am genuinely pissed they took out was them actually searching desks/cupboards and not just looking at them. That broke immersion a little bit. I loved the idea that I could let them ransack the place and then take em out and get what they'd found. Or risk losing some stuff if they took it first.
 
Feb 1, 2010
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Liverpool
#67
The enemies DO run away from you if they find out you have a gun, it even says so in the game tips. Unless they already know that you have a gun, they will run away from you scared shitless if you whip out your pistol for the first time in front of one of them. Infact I never knew the enemies did that until I played the game since I never watched any of the pre release gameplay videos properly.
 
Oct 3, 2012
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#68
The AI in this game is so dumb and irrational, like the enemy almost seeing Joel behind the counter and instead of walking towards him he walks in the room next to him

And the roughness/violence would have added so much to the overall tone of the game.. is the brick takedown still in the game?

Still a great game, but the potential for so much more is there
Yup, used it all the time on Survivor.

Gotta save those bullets.
 
Nov 18, 2006
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#69
I just assumed the presentation was fiddled with or part of a scripted story scene. If you expected gameplay to look like that, then you don't have much understanding of how games work.
 
Jun 12, 2011
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#72
I just assumed the presentation was fiddled with or part of a scripted story scene. If you expected gameplay to look like that, then you don't have much understanding of how games work.
But it does, the only huge difference is the way the AI changes for the scared solo guy at the end of the demo. And 'stalking' AI like that was used one time in the game to great effect, if I had to fight something like that one guy in every encounter throughout the game the combat would have been incredibly stressful. Maybe I'm taking crazy pills or Hard mode has significantly better AI but I had tons of fights in the game that were as good as the E3 demo, although the hotel building specifically was pretty unremarkable for me.

Overall the video in OP is really stupid, I mean at one point he's trying to use a bugged unresponsive enemy to prove a point of the AI having bad FOV? What.

Not saying it's perfect - I'd say my main issue with TLOU is the AI is too lax when in a non-alerted state, the bow is kinda broken in some areas because of how they'll check out dead bodies one at a time. Also, sometimes you can catch groups as they spawn or chase you and upgraded molotovs can clear the whole place. But other than that it was great. I see some references to FEAR in this thread, which has some of my favorite AI ever, but TLOU does some far more impressive things especially considering how much more open the environments get in comparison.

Wait, so enemies don't surrender if you point a gun at them and they have weaker weapons like in a smaller game like I Am Alive? Or is this a glitch video?
They can surrender, I forget what I did to trigger that but I've seen it happen. But usually their reaction to noticing you have a gun is that they start using their own firearms.
 
Jul 21, 2011
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#73
So, I've stumbled upon a video that compares the final version of the game compared to the E3 demo. Personally, I have enjoyed it with the AI delivering some depth (on Hard Mode). However, I did NOT expect the AI difference to be this drastic. ND stated that they had to tone down the AI for your allies but not the enemies (at least to my knowledge). So far, we really need to elaborate on this "Balance of Power" they've constantly used as a selling point for the game and we're hardly seeing any of it. Observe below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whAma7fOdmM&feature

It is very sad that the game has been toned down to this level not to the extreme levels of Bioshock: Infinite or Aliens: CM but I feel like I'm playing the shareware version of the game. IMO, ND should've at least give us the E3 mode at Survival as it makes no sense for us to run a higher difficulty level with this lower intended design at mind.

/lock if old
10/10
 
Feb 2, 2009
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#75
Messofanego said:
Wait, so enemies don't surrender if you point a gun at them and they have weaker weapons like in a smaller game like I Am Alive? Or is this a glitch video?
They do, but you can't simply "hold them up". You need to beat them down with a melee hit then draw on them. At that point they'll beg. Or you can simply head-shot them as the retucule will always be locked on for an insta-kill.

What needs to be understood is that all this stuff is driven by single-button presses, so context is critical in determining the specific action Joel takes. You dont directly get to choose a kerb-stomp finish, a face-smash on piece of cover, a kickdown off a platform etc - only in situations where those finishers make sense.
 
Jul 26, 2005
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Europa
#78
Wow the last of us looks horrible in this footage.

Citizen kane of gaming my ass.
Yep that video was pretty bad, I think it's now obvious that the E3 demo was scripted BS...well I guess this was expected since IIRC the E3 demo was played live on some TV show after E3 last year and was identical to the E3 live demo.

Also wtf at the "AI was too good so we had to tone it down", did ND seriously say that? lol.
 
#82
The E3 demo was clearly set to show the best possible outcome in all situations to show the best side of the AI.

But some stuff in that video is just plain wrong/missleading, enemies do show fear and run away, also saw them run to cover when they see you for the first time, beg for life, grab me from side, ellie stabbing people in the back when they grab you, etc

Pretty much everything that was in the E3 demo is in the game, except maybe the enemies searching inside drawers, I'm not sure about that one.

P.S. - I played on hard/survivor
 
Aug 2, 2007
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#83
I feel this is similar to Bioshock Infinite. These cool cinematic touches ultimately would make the game too scripted because A.I.'s currently at a level where NPC's can't naturally act in this way. So ultimately it comes down to devs wanting dynamic combat situations as opposed to every player playing the same scenario exactly the same way for the sake of keeping these moments in there.

I don't think it's a bad thing for devs to overreach in their target demos if the final product still ends up playing great despite seeming simpler.
 
Oct 12, 2010
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#87
I really don't get these posts. Playing on Hard now, but even on Normal this was not the case. So many times I'd get a hit on or two, and enemies would leg it or simply hide and not pop out from cover until they heard my clip run empty. It happened countless times as well, which is why I don't understand why some claim the enemies have no fear.

.
You don't "get" it? I'm not lying and i'm not talking out of my ass dude - that was the experience i had with the AI and the combat. I loved the story, some gameplay mechanics, the graphics, the enviroments and the characters. I did not love the AI however.
 
Dec 2, 2007
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#88
But it does, the only huge difference is the way the AI changes for the scared solo guy at the end of the demo. And 'stalking' AI like that was used one time in the game to great effect, if I had to fight something like that one guy in every encounter throughout the game the combat would have been incredibly stressful. Maybe I'm taking crazy pills or Hard mode has significantly better AI but I had tons of fights in the game that were as good as the E3 demo, although the hotel building specifically was pretty unremarkable for me.
This is pretty much how I feel.

The Last of Us has great AI that's responsive, communicates its intentions clearly, acts according to consistent rules, and gives you plenty of opportunities to use the stealth tricks the game gives you. Everything but them searching areas ahead of you exists in the final game in my experience. If the game had AI that used all the same tools as the player does, you'd lose in any encounter with three or more enemies.
 
Oct 1, 2011
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#89
I don't know what you guys are talking about when comparing TLOU and Bishock. 90% of what happened in the E3 demo happened in the 2.5 playthroughs of TLOU for me. Bioshock Infinite E3 demos where sections that were not in the game at all.
 
#91
So, I've stumbled upon a video that compares the final version of the game compared to the E3 demo. Personally, I have enjoyed it with the AI delivering some depth (on Hard Mode). However, I did NOT expect the AI difference to be this drastic. ND stated that they had to tone down the AI for your allies but not the enemies (at least to my knowledge). So far, we really need to elaborate on this "Balance of Power" they've constantly used as a selling point for the game and we're hardly seeing any of it. Observe below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whAma7fOdmM&feature

It is very sad that the game has been toned down to this level not to the extreme levels of Bioshock: Infinite or Aliens: CM but I feel like I'm playing the shareware version of the game. IMO, ND should've at least give us the E3 mode at Survival as it makes no sense for us to run a higher difficulty level with this lower intended design at mind.

/lock if old
Strange. I played on Hard straightaway and I definitely noticed enemies hiding whenever I pulled out my gun.

Their field of vision is certainly a tad too short, but the routing patterns, flanking, etc. were definitely better than most games I've played.

That video showcasing the enemy AI seems a tad different from what I played. Could it be the difficulty?
 
Feb 25, 2013
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#92
I don't know if he's playing on Easy, but the AI looks pretty dumbed down. I haven't encountered it to those extremes. But yes, the demo is certainly more nuanced than the final product; that is usual the case with demo's, unfortunately.
 
Oct 26, 2006
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www.robleydesign.com
#93
So, I've stumbled upon a video that compares the final version of the game compared to the E3 demo. Personally, I have enjoyed it with the AI delivering some depth (on Hard Mode). However, I did NOT expect the AI difference to be this drastic. ND stated that they had to tone down the AI for your allies but not the enemies (at least to my knowledge). So far, we really need to elaborate on this "Balance of Power" they've constantly used as a selling point for the game and we're hardly seeing any of it. Observe below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whAma7fOdmM&feature

It is very sad that the game has been toned down to this level not to the extreme levels of Bioshock: Infinite or Aliens: CM but I feel like I'm playing the shareware version of the game. IMO, ND should've at least give us the E3 mode at Survival as it makes no sense for us to run a higher difficulty level with this lower intended design at mind.

/lock if old
The stuff in that video has never happened to me once while playing the game. I almost don't trust the source of it but I'm playing the game on Hard so I don't know how much that changes things.

That said You need to calm down OP

You don't "get" it? I'm not lying and i'm not talking out of my ass dude - that was the experience i had with the AI and the combat. I loved the story, some gameplay mechanics, the graphics, the enviroments and the characters. I did not love the AI however.
Sorry man I don't get where your coming from either. I have played every stealth esque game this gen and TLOUS isn't perfect but its far better than the rest. Switching patterns, Enemy Alerts, and Shifting Cover make it a lot more difficult than other games.

What difficulty are you playing at?
Do you have Listen Mode on?
 
Oct 7, 2012
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#98
It amuses me that people are saying "why not patch it in", or even more silly, saying "why wasn't this AI available as a harder difficulty".
The AI shown in the demo is early beta at best I'd guess. I don't know fully their reasons for dropping that style, but they must have been good, I doubt ND is out to make TLoU worse. Anyway my point is, If Naughty Dog had to push back their release date, (the first time I ever remember them doing that), obviously they weren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs, and they couldn't have just finished an entire new AI system for a difficulty relatively few people are going to play. And as for patching it in, they could, but again few people would play it, an their working on DLC already, so It really makes no sense to put in a half finished AI as a patch instead of add-ons that will get ND more money, and the fans more gametime.