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To any marketing people here, is Social Justice really a factor?

GreyHorace

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This question has been banging around my head for quite awhile in recent days, especially in today's climate where political correctness is being demanded from far left crazies with increasing frequency. But after the recent news of the Ion Fury devs patching out all the non-PC jokes from the game and being forced to attend 'sensitivity classes' (covered in the GAF thread here), I felt now was the time to ask this question.

To any people who work at marketing, is social justice something you pay attention to?

Back in the day it seemed inconceivable that big companies would bend the knee to outrage mobs and apologize profusely for whatever offense they may have caused, but nowadays it seems the norm. And at other times companies will launch a campaign to appeal to the SJW crowd only to anger their original customer base (see Gilette, Marvel Comics). People say it's due to social media giving a voice to people that otherwise wouldn't be heard, and companies paying close attention. But I was led to believe that the voices on social media only constitute a small percentage of the general population, who for the most part don't really give a damn about the the latest social justice issues. So what gives?

I ask this as someone who doesn't live in America. As a Filipino, I and many others in my country don't really give a thought to political correctness. Hell, our President is a prime example of this, as he's been wont to say something off putting from time to time that is sure to offend. Sure, there are people here who get outraged at some offensive thing they may have seen or head, but us Filipinos don't really have a PC culture to speak of. Whereas in the US it seems like one has to take careful steps not invite the wrath of the online mob and get 'canceled' from existence.
 

Blood Borne

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PC is simply a symptom of profuse privilege and good life. Only over privileged people worry about PC crap. Life is too good for them hence they worry about trivial garbage.

There’s a void when a human faces no challenge or problem. PC is filling up that void. It’s not a coincidence that PC is only prevalent is developed countries. Under developed countries don’t even have time for PC crap, they’re thinking of actual real problems, where’s the next meal coming from.

Even in developed, the more privileged the person is, the more PC/SJW they become and vice versa. There’s a reason why elite school and colleges are filled with PC/SJWs, they’re simply just too over privileged.
 

HeresJohnny

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Not in marketing but I have a sales background, and I’ll tell you that only a bad sales person limits his audience. Getting involved in social topics has no place in sales: you are there to sell shit, and as much of it as possible. Taking on controversies and trying to appease a small group and pissing off the larger one is the opposite of sales work.

I am a huge fan of knives. A few moths back, Benchmade made a stupid marketing move of showing their facilities being used to cut up guns by the Oregon PD. They were guns used in crimes and should not have been possessed by those who had them, but the optics were bad, because the knife industry is trying to make inroads into conceal carry and comes under fire for it just as firearms do, only to a lesser degree. This photo op was seen as hypocritical and pissed off a bunch of people. It also caused people to put Benchmade under the looking glass and it was discovered they’d donated a bunch of money to anti-2nd Amendment politicians. Guess who buys lots of knives it turns out? Gun owners. Only now not from Benchmade so much. So it was really stupid of the, to insert themselves in a controversy to start with, but then the increased visibility and scrutiny caused some things about the company to come out that truly hurt it. All over what was essentially a stupid marketing idea. This leads to the second tenet of sales: don’t be so clever that you end up tripping over your own dick.

Your job as a salesperson is to erase every possible objection to buying from a qualified candidate, so why would you go getting involved in controversies and appeasing a small group of cunts and make the larger one upset so they buy elsewhere? In the words of the sage and eminent Tommy Lee Jones: it just don’t make no sense.
 
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matt404au

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The intersectional ideology that asserts identity-based privilege/oppression and binds together various disparate identity groups like women, blacks, Islamists, homosexuals, trans, etc., aided and abetted by complicit media elites, has created a market in which there is significant profit to be made in selling oppression narratives.
 

GreyHorace

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PC is simply a symptom of profuse privilege and good life. Only over privileged people worry about PC crap. Life is too good for them hence they worry about trivial garbage.

There’s a void when a human faces no challenge or problem. PC is filling up that void. It’s not a coincidence that PC is only prevalent is developed countries. Under developed countries don’t even have time for PC crap, they’re thinking of actual real problems, where’s the next meal coming from.

Even in developed, the more privileged the person is, the more PC/SJW they become and vice versa. There’s a reason why elite school and colleges are filled with PC/SJWs, they’re simply just too over privileged.
I have to agree. I have 'friends'on social media who constantly harp on Duterte's supposed dictatorial tendencies and the reported human rights violations his administration has committed.

Thing is, most of them come from the upper or upper-middle class and have no idea what a real struggle it is for the ordinary masses to make ends meet. It's why Duterte won, he appealed to the working and poor classes and promised them relief and opportunity. These people are more worried about how they're going feed their families rather than the latest social justice outrage. We've had our fill of social outrage for 30 years since Marcos was overthrown. No one cares about that shit anymore.

Not in marketing but I have a sales background, and I’ll tell you that only a bad sales person limits his audience. Getting involved in social topics has no place in sales: you are there to sell shit, and as much of it as possible. Taking on controversies and trying to appease a small group and pissing off the larger one is the opposite of sales work.
Makes you wonder what sort of salespeople Gilette has in their employ.
 

matt404au

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Not in marketing but I have a sales background, and I’ll tell you that only a bad sales person limits his audience. Getting involved in social topics has no place in sales: you are there to sell shit, and as much of it as possible. Taking on controversies and trying to appease a small group and pissing off the larger one is the opposite of sales work.
What happens when you take various small groups and bind them together through ideology? Are they still a small group?
 

Super Mario

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If you're in marketing, you do what you are told

I do think it raises an interesting question though. Where does this come from? Is it better for sales to target this crowd? Is it Liberal donors? Is it someone holding video leverage of the CEO on Epstein's island? So far, I don't see the data that these types of campaigns are doing any favors. You alienate one half when you target another. To be fair, targeting an entire market doesn't always make you more successful. But then again, neither does SJW marketing.
 
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HeresJohnny

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What happens when you take various small groups and bind them together through ideology? Are they still a small group?
Then you get the Democratic Party.

Lol but seriously then you just end up with a larger group of zealots that may or may not buy your product. The idea should be to not limit yourself to any one group or buyer, get them all (or as many as you can).

I used to have a boss whose favorite training line was: I don’t care what bullshit they believe in or what color they are, they all bleed green to me.
 
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HeresJohnny

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The intersectional ideology that asserts identity-based privilege/oppression and binds together various disparate identity groups like women, blacks, Islamists, homosexuals, trans, etc., aided and abetted by complicit media elites, has created a market in which there is significant profit to be made in selling oppression narratives.
True but is there enough profit in it to offset the losses they’ve incurred by marginalizing the majority of the market?
 

#Phonepunk#

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it's all about mitigating Risk. Risk is what makes the world go round. in a world of credit, Risk is the all important factor. investors need to know their money is going to a product that is going to have a nice long life.

what would upset that? well you have market forces, which are pretty easy to determine, and are usually well known if a company is already doing business in an industry. but you also have scandals. a celebrity can say the wrong thing, or have something from their past leaked, and it can be connected to your product in some way. this can be disastrous. this is why you have a PR department.

it is important to put a good face on companies. this helps mitigate risk. not only so the public trusts them, but so that internal investors will too. this is why you see companies do charity, do initiatives, etc. there is a "public face" that a company wears, a narrative they create. this is why people feel all warm and fuzzy thinking of Marvel when in reality that money goes to Donald Trump's biggest supporter. justice related media is constantly being issued as a smokescreen, to provide plausible deniability.

the bigger a company is, the more important this is, because the more people they reach, the more of a chance one of those people is "toxic". someone could do a mass shooting wearing a t-shirt with your company tomorrow, there is no way to know. the bigger a company grows, the more they want to reduce Risk, but the more Risk they incur, for the more customers they pick up. openly addressing justice issues is a way to distract the public from all that.
 
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tkscz

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I'm in the same boat as HeresJohnny HeresJohnny with some sales experience., but also a bit of business under my belt. It's never a good idea to aim for specific ideals, politics or groups. Alienating any group hurts over-all sales. However, good PR can go a long way. Looking good can be a good long term investment. Thus why you see companies trying to appeal to that demographic, the PR. Same with companies doing the rainbow avatar during pride month, good PR. However, because of the fickleness of SJWs, it's not easy to pull it off without it back firing (see Pepsi and Gillette). After all, it IS advertising and thus is, in the end, just trying to sell a product.
 
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WindomURL

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PC is simply a symptom of profuse privilege and good life. Only over privileged people worry about PC crap. Life is too good for them hence they worry about trivial garbage.

There’s a void when a human faces no challenge or problem. PC is filling up that void. It’s not a coincidence that PC is only prevalent is developed countries. Under developed countries don’t even have time for PC crap, they’re thinking of actual real problems, where’s the next meal coming from.

Even in developed, the more privileged the person is, the more PC/SJW they become and vice versa. There’s a reason why elite school and colleges are filled with PC/SJWs, they’re simply just too over privileged.
It's analogous to the hygiene hypothesis, wherein children who are underexposed to various infectious agents in early childhood develop autoimmune disorders. And it's something that primarily affects the first world. Helminth therapy is a method to treat these disorders by introducing worms into the patient's body in order to modulate/calibrate the immune response.

World is a fractal.
 
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IKSTUGA

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I basically follow company websites (B2C paper, pulp and energy sector) for a living and I definitely see a trend in companies pushing diversity, inclusion etc. in their marketing materials. Obviously, It's most apparent with companies based in the US, UK or Germany.
 
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GreyHorace

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I used to have a boss whose favorite training line was: I don’t care what bullshit they believe in or what color they are, they all bleed green to me.
That's a great quote. I ought to use it sometime. Your boss is a genius.

it's all about mitigating Risk. Risk is what makes the world go round. in a world of credit, Risk is the all important factor. investors need to know their money is going to a product that is going to have a nice long life.

what would upset that? well you have market forces, which are pretty easy to determine, and are usually well known if a company is already doing business in an industry. but you also have scandals. a celebrity can say the wrong thing, or have something from their past leaked, and it can be connected to your product in some way. this can be disastrous. this is why you have a PR department.

it is important to put a good face on companies. this helps mitigate risk. not only so the public trusts them, but so that internal investors will too. this is why you see companies do charity, do initiatives, etc. there is a "public face" that a company wears, a narrative they create. this is why people feel all warm and fuzzy thinking of Marvel when in reality that money goes to Donald Trump's biggest supporter. justice related media is constantly being issued as a smokescreen, to provide plausible deniability.

the bigger a company is, the more important this is, because the more people they reach, the more of a chance one of those people is "toxic". someone could do a mass shooting wearing a t-shirt with your company tomorrow, there is no way to know. the bigger a company grows, the more they want to reduce Risk, but the more Risk they incur, for the more customers they pick up. openly addressing justice issues is a way to distract the public from all that.
I get what you're saying. But, when does the outrage become too ridiculous or insane that the only sensible course of action is to ignore it?

Take for example the Ion Fury controversy. Those comments by the devs were pretty mild and really more critical of the outrage culture that permeates social media today. But then the idiots of RetardEra deem them transphobic and go on the warpath, thus forcing them to issue an apology.

What happens next? Who is the poor game developer, writer, actor or anyone in the creative industry who'll be the new target for these far left marxists because the former made some comment that the latter deem offensive? And for every victory they receive they are sure to escalate the political correctness to new levels by finding new words to censor and ban from general conservation. We already have the NBA setting a stupid precedent by banning the word 'owner', what's next?

Damn the risks. There needs to be a line drawn where someone can face the outrage mob and state emphatically: "NO. This is stupid. I am not going to let you silence me and take away my right to free speech because you're offended."

I'm in the same boat as HeresJohnny HeresJohnny with some sales experience., but also a bit of business under my belt. It's never a good idea to aim for specific ideals, politics or groups. Alienating any group hurts over-all sales. However, good PR can go a long way. Looking good can be a good long term investment. Thus why you see companies trying to appeal to that demographic, the PR. Same with companies doing the rainbow avatar during pride month, good PR. However, because of the fickleness of SJWs, it's not easy to pull it off without it back firing (see Pepsi and Gillette). After all, it IS advertising and thus is, in the end, just trying to sell a product.
But they're already alienating groups. Many game developers along with gaming 'journalists' have decided that gamers (the core audience) are toxic and not deserving to be catered to. Instead they're looking to attract a new demographic composed of women, minorities, LGBTQ and whatever persecuted group is out there. How else to explain the #EveryonesBattlefield fiasco that DICE and EA tried to pull?

At some point these companies decided pursuing social justice was more important than caring for your customers needs. Why would Gillette abandon the clean shaven men for unkempt soyboys? Why would Marvel leave behind their True Believers for the residents of Clown World?
 

tkscz

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But they're already alienating groups. Many game developers along with gaming 'journalists' have decided that gamers (the core audience) are toxic and not deserving to be catered to. Instead they're looking to attract a new demographic composed of women, minorities, LGBTQ and whatever persecuted group is out there. How else to explain the #EveryonesBattlefield fiasco that DICE and EA tried to pull?

At some point these companies decided pursuing social justice was more important than caring for your customers needs. Why would Gillette abandon the clean shaven men for unkempt soyboys? Why would Marvel leave behind their True Believers for the residents of Clown World?
And for some of them it's having an impact. Part of Gillette's 8 billion loss was caused by that commercial. Marvel's comic sales are falling more and more as they only keep the name of biggest comic book company (excluding movies) by putting out more books than DC. They've even caused comic book stores who can't sale their books to close. Most people who bought BFV were BF die hards and it still sold below expectation for EA (I think but I might be thinking of another big game they had. Of course nothing seems to sell up to what EA wants). We keep saying get woke go broke for a reason.

Besides PR brownie points, there are creators who legit believe in the SJW narrative. A bunch of Marvel's editors and writers at the moment are SJW maniacs. Some of the stuff they due on twitter caused DC to make it an official rule that if you use twitter like Marvel writers/editors do, you'll be fired from DC. But their beliefs mean more than sales. They can't fail in their own minds if they pushed their beliefs out there.
 
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GreyHorace

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Besides PR brownie points, there are creators who legit believe in the SJW narrative. A bunch of Marvel's editors and writers at the moment are SJW maniacs. Some of the stuff they due on twitter caused DC to make it an official rule that if you use twitter like Marvel writers/editors do, you'll be fired from DC. But their beliefs mean more than sales. They can't fail in their own minds if they pushed their beliefs out there.
Wow. Good on DC then. If only Marvel had the sense to implement a similar rule. Too bad they're too stupid to do that.
 
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Tesseract

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only if you want it to be, get out in front and walk through the fire then nobody can touch you

as the dick man once said ~ if you don't like what's being said, change the conversation
 
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NickFire

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Not in marketing but I have a sales background, and I’ll tell you that only a bad sales person limits his audience. Getting involved in social topics has no place in sales: you are there to sell shit, and as much of it as possible. Taking on controversies and trying to appease a small group and pissing off the larger one is the opposite of sales work.

I am a huge fan of knives. A few moths back, Benchmade made a stupid marketing move of showing their facilities being used to cut up guns by the Oregon PD. They were guns used in crimes and should not have been possessed by those who had them, but the optics were bad, because the knife industry is trying to make inroads into conceal carry and comes under fire for it just as firearms do, only to a lesser degree. This photo op was seen as hypocritical and pissed off a bunch of people. It also caused people to put Benchmade under the looking glass and it was discovered they’d donated a bunch of money to anti-2nd Amendment politicians. Guess who buys lots of knives it turns out? Gun owners. Only now not from Benchmade so much. So it was really stupid of the, to insert themselves in a controversy to start with, but then the increased visibility and scrutiny caused some things about the company to come out that truly hurt it. All over what was essentially a stupid marketing idea. This leads to the second tenet of sales: don’t be so clever that you end up tripping over your own dick.

Your job as a salesperson is to erase every possible objection to buying from a qualified candidate, so why would you go getting involved in controversies and appeasing a small group of cunts and make the larger one upset so they buy elsewhere? In the words of the sage and eminent Tommy Lee Jones: it just don’t make no sense.
Solid post. The topic of the thread is one I have wondered about myself many times. I share your sentiments, and there seems to be plenty of evidence that at least with respect to male majority-dominated products, trying to appease a certain crowd can lead to spectacularly bad results. Simple works with us. Pandering comes across either as cheesy or offensive. Amazing how many companies don't seem to get that and then run circles around failed expectations with excuses as to why everything but an obvious mistake caused their failure to hit full potential.
 
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epicnemesis

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Not in Marketing but my final MBA project was a comparative study on mobile brand interaction between US and Southeast Asia back in 2013. One take away from an interview with a major creative ad company executive completely unrelated to the project was that people back in 2013 were installing solar panels on the street facing side of their roof, even when that side got less daylight. While that is not exactly Social Justice related, it shows that even then, and with offline things, people were more interested in virtue signaling than actually being virtuous.
 

#Phonepunk#

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I get what you're saying. But, when does the outrage become too ridiculous or insane that the only sensible course of action is to ignore it?

Take for example the Ion Fury controversy. Those comments by the devs were pretty mild and really more critical of the outrage culture that permeates social media today. But then the idiots of RetardEra deem them transphobic and go on the warpath, thus forcing them to issue an apology.
i would say they responded because they understand that social justice IS a factor in marketing. that ResetEra is a board full of professional journalists, press people, promoters, marketers, devs, streamers, etc. and that the first week of sales were about to be tanked because this board was planning on spreading whatever they had on them to the larger world. they saw this controversy about to destroy the all important first week sales and they headed it off with multiple responses.

are they supposed to sacrifice their livelihoods so that they can keep 2 textures unchanged? that does not make business sense. Era was threatening to go public, asking how come journalists aren't covering it (when many openly use the board), saying they should alert Twitch streamers and such. members of the dev team were witnessing this about to blow up. so they put together a multi-pronged response. this is the appropriate thing to do. IMO this is smart. like it or not, SJW are influential in the market, and you can either own them, or be owned by them. the key is to be prepared.

should they have ignored it? they had multiple responses before the first story even dropped. if they had ignored it, the story would have dropped, and their lack of response would have compounded things. SJWs, unhappy with "how did this even happen at all?" would pressure streamers and youtubers and outlets to avoid covering the game. this would affect the game's bottom line and the dev's career. in the end, they chose to change these things internally, before the story broke, and external pressure came about. this seems to be the best way to handle such situations. this being done internal is key, this is not censorship. it is smart reacting to market forces. yes they could ignore it, and suffer from coverage and sales as a result. would that be smart, business-wise? this was effectively crisis management.

also let's be real, the entire thing at this point is about 2 textures in the game. hardly a massive alteration IMO.
 
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GreyHorace

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i would say they responded because they understand that social justice IS a factor in marketing. that ResetEra is a board full of professional journalists, press people, promoters, marketers, devs, streamers, etc. and that the first week of sales were about to be tanked because this board was planning on spreading whatever they had on them to the larger world. they saw this controversy about to destroy the all important first week sales and they headed it off with multiple responses.

are they supposed to sacrifice their livelihoods so that they can keep 2 textures unchanged? that does not make business sense. Era was threatening to go public, asking how come journalists aren't covering it (when many openly use the board), saying they should alert Twitch streamers and such. members of the dev team were witnessing this about to blow up. so they put together a multi-pronged response. this is the appropriate thing to do. IMO this is smart. like it or not, SJW are influential in the market, and you can either own them, or be owned by them. the key is to be prepared.

should they have ignored it? they had multiple responses before the first story even dropped. if they had ignored it, the story would have dropped, and their lack of response would have compounded things. SJWs, unhappy with "how did this even happen at all?" would pressure streamers and youtubers and outlets to avoid covering the game. this would affect the game's bottom line and the dev's career. in the end, they chose to change these things internally, before the story broke, and external pressure came about. this seems to be the best way to handle such situations. this being done internal is key, this is not censorship. it is smart reacting to market forces. yes they could ignore it, and suffer from coverage and sales as a result. would that be smart, business-wise? this was effectively crisis management.

also let's be real, the entire thing at this point is about 2 textures in the game. hardly a massive alteration IMO.
Forgive me, but didn't Daniel Vavra suffer through the slings and arrows of the outrage crowd after his sympathies with Gamergate were made public? Despite their efforts along with the help of game 'journalists', Kingdom Come Deliverance was still a success and sold pretty well at 2 million copies.

So yes, I think ignoring the outrage mob is a perfectly viable tactic. Especially if there's an audience willing to buy your product.

And for some of them it's having an impact. Part of Gillette's 8 billion loss was caused by that commercial. Marvel's comic sales are falling more and more as they only keep the name of biggest comic book company (excluding movies) by putting out more books than DC. They've even caused comic book stores who can't sale their books to close. Most people who bought BFV were BF die hards and it still sold below expectation for EA (I think but I might be thinking of another big game they had. Of course nothing seems to sell up to what EA wants). We keep saying get woke go broke for a reason.

Besides PR brownie points, there are creators who legit believe in the SJW narrative. A bunch of Marvel's editors and writers at the moment are SJW maniacs. Some of the stuff they due on twitter caused DC to make it an official rule that if you use twitter like Marvel writers/editors do, you'll be fired from DC. But their beliefs mean more than sales. They can't fail in their own minds if they pushed their beliefs out there.
So basically the Marvel people be like this:


When did people in the business of selling stuff suddenly decide "the customer is always wrong"?
 
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rykomatsu

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Market research requires data. If you have a robust social media analytics pipeline, it's easy to pull that information to pick up/pick out trends and use that as your market research.

If you're either lazy or agenda driven, it's easy to just use this and no other real sources for market info and claim you are making a "data driven decision" to "get woke".
 
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NickFire

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i would say they responded because they understand that social justice IS a factor in marketing. that ResetEra is a board full of professional journalists, press people, promoters, marketers, devs, streamers, etc. and that the first week of sales were about to be tanked because this board was planning on spreading whatever they had on them to the larger world. they saw this controversy about to destroy the all important first week sales and they headed it off with multiple responses.

are they supposed to sacrifice their livelihoods so that they can keep 2 textures unchanged? that does not make business sense. Era was threatening to go public, asking how come journalists aren't covering it (when many openly use the board), saying they should alert Twitch streamers and such. members of the dev team were witnessing this about to blow up. so they put together a multi-pronged response. this is the appropriate thing to do. IMO this is smart. like it or not, SJW are influential in the market, and you can either own them, or be owned by them. the key is to be prepared.

should they have ignored it? they had multiple responses before the first story even dropped. if they had ignored it, the story would have dropped, and their lack of response would have compounded things. SJWs, unhappy with "how did this even happen at all?" would pressure streamers and youtubers and outlets to avoid covering the game. this would affect the game's bottom line and the dev's career. in the end, they chose to change these things internally, before the story broke, and external pressure came about. this seems to be the best way to handle such situations. this being done internal is key, this is not censorship. it is smart reacting to market forces. yes they could ignore it, and suffer from coverage and sales as a result. would that be smart, business-wise? this was effectively crisis management.

also let's be real, the entire thing at this point is about 2 textures in the game. hardly a massive alteration IMO.
I agree with some of this. Whether the company agrees with the outrage mob or not, trying to avoid it's wrath and prevent bad press (regardless of how biased said press might be) is a rational business choice. I believe there is ample evidence that either the tide is turning and/or that the outrage mob truly is a tiny fraction of actual gamers, but its easy for me to say as a consumer when I haven't laid out millions of dollars in development costs that I want to recoup and make a profit from. If I were asked to make that bet with millions of my own money, I have no doubt I'd be worried about going with my gut on the issue.

But in my current shoes, I do think they screwed this up still. Changing the 2 textures was perfectly reasonable to me. But the forced sensitivity or whatever training, that was a mistake IMO. That opened the door to a lot of bad will from the people who recognize these incidents are part of an overall culture war, and in age where Star Wars is oversaturated (LOL), Battlefield fails to meet sales expectations because of reasons (LOL), Gillette writes off billions in good will six months after a hyper woke campaign, etc. , the minuscule censorship is going to be magnified by the people who are sick of the outrage mob and whose wallets seem vital to meeting sales projections. If they just said they wanted to change the textures after the top people learned of them for the first time, I think this would be a non-story by now among the gamers who don't tolerate censorship.

One thing I strongly disagree on is the claim this was not censorship to be clear. It absolutely was. If I threaten an artist to make changes to their work or else, it is still censorship when his brush changes the painting.
 
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tkscz

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Forgive me, but didn't Daniel Vavra suffer through the slings and arrows of the outrage crowd after his sympathies with Gamergate were made public? Despite their efforts along with the help of game 'journalists', Kingdom Come Deliverance was still a success and sold pretty well at 2 million copies.

So yes, I think ignoring the outrage mob is a perfectly viable tactic. Especially if there's an audience willing to buy your product.


So basically the Marvel people be like this:


When did people in the business of selling stuff suddenly decide "the customer is always wrong"?
Oh it gets better with Marvel writers/editors. Marvel pretty much allowed them to basically form a racketeering ring in order to keep books they find "problematic" out of stores (whether it's related to subject matter or author and/or artist of the book).

Richard Meyer wrote a book called Jaw Breakers that got around $400,000 via IndieGogo for him to write, pay an editor, pay an artist, and pay a distributor. However, because SJW writers at Marvel hated him (specifically Mark Waid), they got together in a private group and told several comic book stores not to accept the book, and harassed the publisher who was going to distribute the book across the US. The publish eventually gave in and decided they wouldn't distribute the book. Richard was then told by someone in the group about what they had planned and was even given screen shots (even though Waid mentioned a lot about it publicly on twitter). Richard then put a law suit on Waid after a lawyer told him that what they were doing was basically racketeering.

Richard published the book on his own with the left over money from indiegogo as when all this went down, more people started giving more money to Richard in order to get a copy (as they can't get it in stores now). He's already working on a sequel and still awaiting a court date as Waid keeps trying to do anything he can to not have to go to court except for face up for what he did. Funny enough, Waid has recently threaten anyone making parody art of any of his books. Parodies are under fair use, so legal he has no case, but he'll make that threat as much as he wants to. He also still works under Marvel, even after all this.
 
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GreyHorace

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Oh it gets better with Marvel writers/editors. Marvel pretty much allowed them to basically form a racketeering ring in order to keep books they find "problematic" out of stores (whether it's related to subject matter or author and/or artist of the book).

Richard Meyer wrote a book called Jaw Breakers that got around $400,000 via IndieGogo for him to write, pay an editor, pay an artist, and pay a distributor. However, because SJW writers at Marvel hated him (specifically Mark Waid), they got together in a private group and told several comic book stores not to accept the book, and harassed the publisher who was going to distribute the book across the US. The publish eventually gave in and decided they wouldn't distribute the book. Richard was then told by someone in the group about what they had planned and was even given screen shots (even though Waid mentioned a lot about it publicly on twitter). Richard then put a law suit on Waid after a lawyer told him that what they were doing was basically racketeering.

Richard published the book on his own with the left over money from indiegogo as when all this went down, more people started giving more money to Richard in order to get a copy (as they can't get it in stores now). He's already working on a sequel and still awaiting a court date as Waid keeps trying to do anything he can to not have to go to court except for face up for what he did. Funny enough, Waid has recently threaten anyone making parody art of any of his books. Parodies are under fair use, so legal he has no case, but he'll make that threat as much as he wants to. He also still works under Marvel, even after all this.
Oh I know all about the Meyer vs Waid case. It's been one of those things I've been following along with the Vic Mignogna case in this culture war against SJW's. What's sad about this whole affair is learning what a completely exceptional individual Mark Waid is. I used to enjoy reading the stuff he wrote for Marvel and DC, but reading accounts of his past behavior plus the shady stuff he did against Meyer has really tainted my view on his work.

The most hilarious thing that I've read on this case were those leaked texts he sent to the publishers of Antartic Press (who were releasing Jawbreakers). Waid makes not so subtle hints that if they published the book he and his allies would make their lives difficult, but in the very same convo he's begging them not to think it blackmail, as that would be illegal and he doesn't want the legal trouble. What kind of sane person does that? He truly is a fucking nutcase, much like his fellow comic pros like Dan Slott and Brian Michael Bendis.

You know the irony of this whole thing? Waid's whole crusade against Meyer has guaranteed the latter's success. From what I've read, Meyer was just a small time youtuber giving scathing critiques of Marvel's 'progressive' push on their books but he didn't have that much subscribers on his channel let alone a ton of views on his videos. But Waid and the rest of the Clown World loonies at Marvel had to take offense and tried to bury him, only for it to backfire on them when fans came in support of Meyer, gaining him a ton subscribers on his channel and insuring his book's success. It just proves there is a market for media that goes against progressive politics and not the other way around.
 

tkscz

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You know the irony of this whole thing? Waid's whole crusade against Meyer has guaranteed the latter's success. From what I've read, Meyer was just a small time youtuber giving scathing critiques of Marvel's 'progressive' push on their books but he didn't have that much subscribers on his channel let alone a ton of views on his videos. But Waid and the rest of the Clown World loonies at Marvel had to take offense and tried to bury him, only for it to backfire on them when fans came in support of Meyer, gaining him a ton subscribers on his channel and insuring his book's success. It just proves there is a market for media that goes against progressive politics and not the other way around.
And yet if you see their tweets, they still don't get why he's more popular than they are. Not only that, but he's generally a nicer person than they are. He's proven this time and time again making multiple videos solely to tell his subscribers and followers not to attack anyone while the SJW crowed are quick to release the hounds on anyone they don't like. He's simply showing the kind of awful people they are and they don't like it.
 

GreyHorace

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And yet if you see their tweets, they still don't get why he's more popular than they are. Not only that, but he's generally a nicer person than they are. He's proven this time and time again making multiple videos solely to tell his subscribers and followers not to attack anyone while the SJW crowed are quick to release the hounds on anyone they don't like. He's simply showing the kind of awful people they are and they don't like it.
The fact that these awful people are running Marvel is what's saddening to me. I mean shit, Stan Lee just passed away recently and I can't think of a better way to honor his legacy than to follow his example and be conciliatory with the fans. Aside from his writing and editing the books during Marvel's beginnings, it was Stan's personal touch with the fans that made Marvel such a industry dominant force that it is today. But Waid, Dan Slott and the rest of these Marvel white knights are running counter to what Stan did in pursuit of this mythical new audience that they hope will make up for their flagging sales.

Do they honestly believe these so-called 'progressive' audience are going to buy superhero books? It's a genre designed with young boys in mind. The only time I think comics successfully captured a diverse audience was DC's Vertigo imprint, particularly Neil Gaiman's Sandman. But now even Vertigo has gone under, so you can imagine the sad, sorry state of affairs we're in now.
 
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tkscz

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The fact that these awful people are running Marvel is what's saddening to me. I mean shit, Stan Lee just passed away recently and I can't think of a better way to honor his legacy than to follow his example and be conciliatory with the fans. Aside from his writing and editing the books during Marvel's beginnings, it was Stan's personal touch with the fans that made Marvel such a industry dominant force that it is today. But Waid, Dan Slott and the rest of these Marvel white knights are running counter to what Stan did in pursuit of this mythical new audience that they hope will make up for their flagging sales.

Do they honestly believe these so-called 'progressive' audience are going to buy superhero books? It's a genre designed with young boys in mind. The only time I think comics successfully captured a diverse audience was DC's Vertigo imprint, particularly Neil Gaiman's Sandman. But now even Vertigo has gone under, so you can imagine the sad, sorry state of affairs we're in now.
I'll give that to DC, they knew to separate that kind of book from the main print. DC got the picture, you can't make the main line for everyone, but you can make lines for those who aren't interested in the main line. For fuck's sake, they are actually putting focus and effort in making novels and graphic novels. Separating into kid imprints, YA imprints, dark imprints, and SJW imprints (well until now but Vertigo was gone before so). They get it, you can't bring in an audience with books they already deemed to be "regressive". SJWs have a strong never forgive never forget mentality. Marvel doesn't get that and think just putting out more books that no one will read should fix things.
 
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Mr Nash

square pies = communism
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There’s a void when a human faces no challenge or problem. PC is filling up that void.
This is why everyone needs to do deadlifts. Just pulled 400lbs.? Good job, but why can't you do 500. Get on that shit. In a world like that, everyone would be plenty occupied and not waste their time navel gazing about trivial banality.
 
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Depends on the industry and company.

The ones I've worked at don't have products that have political slants to them. Nor are any company websites or twitter accounts bustling with attitude, opinions and risque marketing messages.

Pretty sure any company making bags of sugar, tshirts or air conditioners don't have marketing people worrying about SJW issues.

Videogames are one of the industries begging to be pitchforked. You got tons of people interacting with the dev, forum chat, constant twitter communication, and the nature of games is people, storylines, killing, characters etc..... all things that can be debated and whined about in a SJW way.

I don't think the guy in charge of selling car batteries has anything to worry about.
 
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GreyHorace

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I'll give that to DC, they knew to separate that kind of book from the main print. DC got the picture, you can't make the main line for everyone, but you can make lines for those who aren't interested in the main line. For fuck's sake, they are actually putting focus and effort in making novels and graphic novels. Separating into kid imprints, YA imprints, dark imprints, and SJW imprints (well until now but Vertigo was gone before so). They get it, you can't bring in an audience with books they already deemed to be "regressive". SJWs have a strong never forgive never forget mentality. Marvel doesn't get that and think just putting out more books that no one will read should fix things.
Haven't been following DC for years, but if this is true then that's great news. At least they're making an effort to diversify their output rather than focusing solely on cape funnybooks. It seems Marvel has that problem now which is why they're inserting all this SJW nonsense into their superhero titles instead of... you know? Creating new properties to cater to that audience.

tkscz tkscz or anybody, what funnybooks does Mr. Waid write?
Well King Baby (Waid's nickname in comic circles, referring to those whiny rages he goes on) has a long career in the comic industry. To list down all the stuff he's done would probably make this a long ass post. For brevity's sake I'll list down the stuff he's most well known for.

DC
Kingdom Come
Superman: Birthright
The Flash
Vol. 2
Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 4

Marvel
X-Men Age of Apocalypse
Captain America
#444-454, Vol. 3 #1-23
Fantastic Four Vol. 3 #60-70, 500-524:
Daredevil Vol. 3 #1-36 (2011–2014), Vol. 4 #1-18 (2014–2015)
Avengers vs. X-Men
Indestructible Hulk


Crossgen
Ruse

Boom! Studios
Irredeemable

Archie Comics
Archie

This is why everyone needs to do deadlifts. Just pulled 400lbs.? Good job, but why can't you do 500. Get on that shit. In a world like that, everyone would be plenty occupied and not waste their time navel gazing about trivial banality.
Or get a real job that requires toil and effort. When these SJWs peel themselves away from their desks and actually join the working masses, maybe then they'll realize that the stuff they pretend to champion is irrelevant compared to earning enough money just to make it through another day.

Depends on the industry and company.

The ones I've worked at don't have products that have political slants to them. Nor are any company websites or twitter accounts bustling with attitude, opinions and risque marketing messages.

Pretty sure any company making bags of sugar, tshirts or air conditioners don't have marketing people worrying about SJW issues.

Videogames are one of the industries begging to be pitchforked. You got tons of people interacting with the dev, forum chat, constant twitter communication, and the nature of games is people, storylines, killing, characters etc..... all things that can be debated and whined about in a SJW way.

I don't think the guy in charge of selling car batteries has anything to worry about.
It seems like the entertainment industry is one the few that has been infected with SJW politics. Given that most creative people lean liberal it's no surprise. They're the type who'll probably take this shit seriously.

God forbid if SJWs start running the auto industry.

Regular Joe: Whaddya mean I can't buy a new car?!
Salesperson: I'm sorry. It seems you misgendered someone on Twitter last week. We can't sell you any model until you've flogged yourselves for the Twitter masses.
 
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Mr Nash

square pies = communism
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Or get a real job that requires toil and effort. When these SJWs peel themselves away from their desks and actually join the working masses, maybe then they'll realize that the stuff they pretend to champion is irrelevant compared to earning enough money just to make it through another day.
Hey, now! They worked retail that one summer when there was a snafu and they couldn't withdraw anything from their trust fund. They've been through the thick of it and know better than anyone the suffering of common folk.
 
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Regular Joe: Whaddya mean I can't buy a new car?!
Salesperson: I'm sorry. It seems you misgendered someone on Twitter last week. We can't sell you any model until you've flogged yourselves for the Twitter masses.
Joe: Hey Sales guy, I apologized on Twitter like a self-deprecating asshole. I want to buy the car now

Sales guy: Ok, what you want?

Joe: I'll take the car we chatted about in White

Sales guy: Can't do that you racist bum. Can't have you flaunting your skin colour

Joe: Ok, I'll buy it in Black

Sales guy: Can't do that you racist bum. Driving a Black car symbolizes you have Black people as chauffeurs getting you from place to place

Joe: Ok I'll have it Red

Sales guy: Can't do that you racist bum. Red is reserved for Natives even though they don't have the purchasing power. The government has put aside special allotments for them in Red to give back for 100s of years of getting dumb tribes from signing their land away for bags of food and guns

Joe: Ok, what colour is available that won't piss off people?

Sales guy: The car only comes in this shade. Equal tones every 1.5 ft

 
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cormack12

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Good points in here. I remember once hearing the phrase 'marketing is about selling the same product in different way'. Can't quite recall where from. But as a quick example take Cadburys Twirl and Cadburys Dairy Milk as a quick and dirty example. It's Cadburys chocolate all the same but two products. And it's about making people believe those products are fundementally different. Then when you reduce it further down to core ingredients like sugar, cream, milk it becomes even more apparent with boosts like caramel centres, creme egg filling etc. You can extend it to further markets like fabric and dyes too. Marketing is about creating enough superficial differences in the raw material to sell a brand or to target an audience (diet coke for women, flakes for women etc)

Fast forward to modern day and companies just got greedy and lazy. Because they relied on no opposition to markets that are considered non-opposable. I mean who would have a problem if Gilette appealed to Transgender people? A razor is about having a close shave, and sensitive, hence the Venus range. Gilette basically split the audiences into male and female. Their tagline was 'Gilette. The best a man can get' ffs. Even Venus has its own tagline. If anything it shows how tone deaf modern marketing creatives are. Marketing - as a skill - is about creating synergy across different markets to exploit the biggest sales scope. Modern marketing relies on injecting partisan ideals or disparaging existing customers. Others are just cynical ploys which clearly show the brand has a tiering system in which customers are worth appealing to.

Take a look at Primark, I was in a city centre a few weeks ago, and it had been renamed to Pridemark and had a new sign with the rainbow colours. An enitrely new sign - for what purpose? As far as I know clothes are purely sex based 'Mens jackets/Womens jackets' etc. To what extent does this spread? Why wasn't it changed for Black History Month? Why don't they support 'Braille day' by havnig all the labels printed in braille as well?

It's these contradictions that people want to discuss and everytime they try, the companies have this massive defence force that fights on their behalf to quell the dissent. It's a perfect position for them to be in. And the only way for the original market to show their disgust or indifference is to go elsewhere. And given the markets they are trying to appeal to are so small, it just affects their bottomline. If anything, these companies should be getting called out for being cynical and cheap by all of us. Not fighting over the ridiculous hypothetical situations they portray.
 
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jason10mm

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Do they honestly believe these so-called 'progressive' audience are going to buy superhero books? It's a genre designed with young boys in mind. The only time I think comics successfully captured a diverse audience was DC's Vertigo imprint, particularly Neil Gaiman's Sandman. But now even Vertigo has gone under, so you can imagine the sad, sorry state of affairs we're in now.
I think there is absolutely a market for superhero books targeting victim/oppressed groups showing them a savior from their own group. The problem is that if the book is set in America who is the universal bad guy? You guessed it....cis hetero white males. So the larger demographic is turned off, and the books have to be ready to survive on just a fraction of the usual fan base. Of course then the publishers and writers complain that "toxic masculinity and Nazi racists" killed the book, when in fact it was misreading your audience and who actually puts money into the industry versus just goes on social media about it.
 

GreyHorace

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I think there is absolutely a market for superhero books targeting victim/oppressed groups showing them a savior from their own group. The problem is that if the book is set in America who is the universal bad guy? You guessed it....cis hetero white males. So the larger demographic is turned off, and the books have to be ready to survive on just a fraction of the usual fan base. Of course then the publishers and writers complain that "toxic masculinity and Nazi racists" killed the book, when in fact it was misreading your audience and who actually puts money into the industry versus just goes on social media about it.
I think superhero comics today are lacking one big thing... nuance. Like you said, there are superhero books that appeal to victim/oppressed groups with a hero of their own race being front and center. Hell, the X-Men built it's dominance of the comic industry portraying a multi ethnic group of heroes who deal with racial prejudice. Black Panther was a kickass hero/king of an African nation who became popular with a black audience, as was Luke Cage. While the quality of writing on these books tends to vary, most of them were successful in depicting the social conflicts these characters encounter.

The problem today is that comics writing has largely turned to shit because they lack the nuance to portray said conflicts. This era of Trump has paved the way for these social justice warriors who don't want to write interesting stories. They want to write wish fulfilment fanfiction that caters to their biases and their like minded ilk. And because they view any criticism against them as an attack from alleged 'nazis', we are left with a industry that has alienated it's main fanbase because of some deluded social justice crusade.

I think there's one character whom I think perfectly encapsulates the change in Marvel Comics' priorities. And that's Carol Danvers. I never really cared much for Carol in the comics even when she was Ms. Marvel, but I really enjoyed her portrayal in Avengers: Earth Mightiest Heroes. She was a soldier and an Avenger who worked well with the team. Overall, a pretty cool hero.



Fast forward to today and you have her graduating to the Captain Marvel name and becoming an arrogant and insufferable harpy who has no time for anyone, especially men. Marvel has positioned her to be this all powerful savior in a sad attempt to attract women to the comics. Despite the fact that she hardly sells because comics fans really dislike the way she's been written in recent years. This is perfectly encapsulated by Brie Larson's awful portrayal in the movie.

 
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I think superhero comics today are lacking one big thing... nuance. Like you said, there are superhero books that appeal to victim/oppressed groups with a hero of their own race being front and center. Hell, the X-Men built it's dominance of the comic industry portraying a multi ethnic group of heroes who deal with racial prejudice. Black Panther was a kickass hero/king of an African nation who became popular with a black audience, as was Luke Cage. While the quality of writing on these books tends to vary, most of them were successful in depicting the social conflicts these characters encounter.

The problem today is that comics writing has largely turned to shit because they lack the nuance to portray said conflicts. This era of Trump has paved the way for these social justice warriors who don't want to write interesting stories. They want to write wish fulfilment fanfiction that caters to their biases and their like minded ilk. And because they view any criticism against them as an attack from alleged 'nazis', we are left with a industry that has alienated it's main fanbase because of some deluded social justice crusade.

I think there's one character whom I think perfectly encapsulates the change in Marvel Comics' priorities. And that's Carol Danvers. I never really cared much for Carol in the comics even when she was Ms. Marvel, but I really enjoyed her portrayal in Avengers: Earth Mightiest Heroes. She was a soldier and an Avenger who worked well with the team. Overall, a pretty cool hero.



Fast forward to today and you have her graduating to the Captain Marvel name and becoming an arrogant and insufferable harpy who has no time for anyone, especially men. Marvel has positioned her to be this all powerful savior in a sad attempt to attract women to the comics. Despite the fact that she hardly sells because comics fans really dislike the way she's been written in recent years. This is perfectly encapsulated by Brie Larson's awful portrayal in the movie.

I highly recommend watching Literature Devil's "Is ComicsGate Wrong?" series because he basically breaks down the same problems you've stated and more with current Marvel.
 
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autoduelist

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Not in marketing but I have a sales background, and I’ll tell you that only a bad sales person limits his audience. Getting involved in social topics has no place in sales: you are there to sell shit, and as much of it as possible. Taking on controversies and trying to appease a small group and pissing off the larger one is the opposite of sales work.
Tim Pool often talks about why he thinks online media went 'woke'. Some article on some trash news site can more clicks the more intersectionalist it is. 'Man falls down well' gets clicked on by people interested in the story itself, but 'transgender black man falls down racist well owned by Trump supporter' grabs the attention of multiple slices of the market.

And i think this helped spread all the nonsense, but the nonsense doesn't work in real life. Sure, more people might click on some trash article, but nobody wants their razor brand, or knife brand, or superhero, or videgame to go near it. Basically, the 'controversies' that gain clicks do not translate to sales of physical goods.
 
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