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Tom Warren to the anti Lockhart

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quest

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The way MS is approaching next gen feels ground shaking imo. As history shows, if you can break new grounds, you can lead the gaming industry into new heights.

The BC, the X/S choices, the xCloud, the most powerful compact design. All these felt like a mix of Xbox Live OG from the phatbox + the move to large but cheaper optical manufacturing+distribution.
The way i see it they won't win over any Sony gamers really no matter what they do. So if they want more sales they need to grow the market. It looks like they will attempt that with a family budget friendly entertainment system gamepass plus lockheart. We will see if it will work or not. Just fighting Sony head to head won't work Sony has mindshare locked up so tight even Nintendo gave up on the home console market.
 

Dolomite

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The way i see it they won't win over any Sony gamers really no matter what they do. So if they want more sales they need to grow the market. It looks like they will attempt that with a family budget friendly entertainment system gamepass plus lockheart. We will see if it will work or not. Just fighting Sony head to head won't work Sony has mindshare locked up so tight even Nintendo gave up on the home console market.
EXACTLY.
That's the way I see it, Sony's brand loyalty was tested when the PS3 debuted at $600
I suspect MS wants Gamertags not necessarily consoles sold. 100 million gamerpass subs = a cool Billion dollars a month
 
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Echelon

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No one builds a game to the highest spec possible; it isn't economically feasible. You start with the lowest common denominator and stretch from there. This Tom Warren guy seems like an idiot if he doesn't understand basic economics.
 

longdi

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The way i see it they won't win over any Sony gamers really no matter what they do. So if they want more sales they need to grow the market. It looks like they will attempt that with a family budget friendly entertainment system gamepass plus lockheart. We will see if it will work or not. Just fighting Sony head to head won't work Sony has mindshare locked up so tight even Nintendo gave up on the home console market.
A reason for ps4 mind share is because all mainstream media voted for it against one.
Going into next gen, Series X will play multi platform games best. Series S will play multi platform games cheapest. Imo the media will be much more favourable to MS.
 
Dec 29, 2018
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I don't need the Xbox fanboyism of the Editor of The Verge to know that Lockhart won't hold games back significantly.



He will gladly report on the PS5 to say it's shit and why nobody should buy it. What else would you expect from the average Microsoft symcophant press?
He does report on PS5 (just google searched PS5 articles with his name attached to it)
However the overwhelming amount of posts on twitter is heavily slanted towards Xbox and Microsoft. He seems to come across like MS fan (i got no issues with that by the way), everyone has preferences.

Just in terms of his job as senior editor, is he meant to be showing his bias (bias may be the wrong word, so 'preference') for MS and Xbox the way he does on Twitter?
 
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longdi

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No one builds a game to the highest spec possible; it isn't economically feasible. You start with the lowest common denominator and stretch from there. This Tom Warren guy seems like an idiot if he doesn't understand basic economics.
Im sure MS knows better the trend for making games.

Just as today, you can port upwards with OneX, next gen you just port downwards to Series S.
 

gamechanger87

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No one builds a game to the highest spec possible; it isn't economically feasible. You start with the lowest common denominator and stretch from there. This Tom Warren guy seems like an idiot if he doesn't understand basic economics.
wait so you are telling me they make 720P textures and just scaleup? I could have sworn it was the other way around because it is so much easier to make a 4K texture scale down to 720P than take a 720P and go up. That upscale wouldn’t have enough detailto be usable.

Lowest common denominator only matters for design CPU/SSD etc. those bottlenecks. Not scaling graphics. If you make a game for a Pc you already do that.
 

longdi

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Faster CPU than the PS5 is a big "shut the hell up."
Series S seems a bold move in traditional console space but it is not. Games making has evolved so much with flexible engines.

We don't expect to lose any game designs. Its only the pixel quality we are giving up
 
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Echelon

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wait so you are telling me they make 720P textures and just scaleup? I could have sworn it was the other way around because it is so much easier to make a 4K texture scale down to 720P than take a 720P and go up. That upscale wouldn’t have enough detailto be usable.

Lowest common denominator only matters for design CPU/SSD etc. those bottlenecks. Not scaling graphics. If you make a game for a Pc you already do that.
I was talking about bottlenecks. Obviously assets are scaled down. If one of the systems is significantly more bottlenecked, you can't just dial down texture packs to make up for it. Look at some games that ran like shit on regular PS4 vs PS4 Pro.
 

Entroyp

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I got banned once for calling out this dude for being unprofessional by putting out sensationalist stuff ala TimDog. I was right.
 
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Mister Wolf

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Series S seems a bold move in traditional console space but it is not. Games making has evolved so much with flexible engines.

We don't expect to lose any game designs. Its only the pixel quality we are giving up
Agreed. Its no different than running a game on PC.
 
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Neo_game

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Isn't this guy paid by Microsoft ? Anyways we have seen how PC are held back by console and games using lowest common denominator. In this video for example both are awesome cards but it is so obvious they both are being held back because the game was designed for console which are pretty inferior. RTX 2080ti especially is difficult to justify its price tag compared to 2070S






KIllzone: SF a launch games for PS4 was using 4.5gb of RAM targeting 1080P 30fps. Games now can use max of 5.5gb. If the S version can only use 7.5gb. This seems like a big compromise for so called next gen console. I think game like Far Cry5 on PC already uses 8gb of RAM and there are many other games as well.
 
Dec 29, 2018
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The sensitivity is turned up to 11, when anyone dares speak positive about XSX these last few days. The other day everyone lost their mind at the system designer over his take on variable clocks, now at Tom and his take on the XSS CPU.
Tom Warren is an editor at a tech site.
The other guy is a system designer.
One has more technical nous than the other.
Which one is more likely to be credible when delving into tech talk.
 
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Mister Wolf

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Isn't this guy paid by Microsoft ? Anyways we have seen how PC are held back by console and games using lowest common denominator. In this video for example both are awesome cards but it is so obvious they both are being held back because the game was designed for console which are pretty inferior. RTX 2080ti especially is difficult to justify its price tag compared to 2070S






KIllzone: SF a launch games for PS4 was using 4.5gb of RAM targeting 1080P 30fps. Games now can use max of 5.5gb. If the S version can only use 7.5gb. This seems like a big compromise for so called next gen console. I think game like Far Cry5 on PC already uses 8gb of RAM and there are many other games as well.
Notice how in that video the texture quality is maxed out. The Series S simply wont use max resolution textures.
 
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quest

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If it does all that, then why XSX?
Why a nice nvidia card when you can use a low end one? One is if you have a nice 4k tv and have the extra budget. One for 1080p or families or gamers on a budget especially a multiple console household. Get 2 lockhearts for the kids for the 100 dollars more than 1 series x 299.99x2 vs 499.99..
 

tryDEATH

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Tom Warren is an editor at a tech site.
The other guy is a system designer.
One has more technical nous than the other.
Which one is more likely to be credible when delving into tech talk.
Both them got destroyed for their takes, even the system designer got savaged, because his take didn't line up with PS5's. Any positivity for Xbox is attacked no matter the source.
 

Dolomite

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No one builds a game to the highest spec possible; it isn't economically feasible. You start with the lowest common denominator and stretch from there. This Tom Warren guy seems like an idiot if he doesn't understand basic economics.
This is such an exhausting conversation but I'll repeat this until launch I guess
The MS GDK provides the tools to code games in parallel with thier SKU's. There is minimal"scaling" because there is minimal actual work done by devs. There is no "port" from the XSX to XSS Or vice versa. This is no different than the fanboys claiming Variable clocks will hinder Development for the PS5, after Cerny confimed that clock shifts are done automatically in real-time outside of coding. MS is a software Giant. Software and hardware RND is thier specialty. These consoles are the product of 5+ yrs in research and innovation for specifically MS the 1.3 trillion dollars Tech giant........they got this. They've designed these systems with devs in mind
 
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TheGrat1

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Just as today, you can port upwards with OneX, next gen you just port downwards to Series S.
This, I believe, is the crux of the friction, though. Will games be ported to Lockhart (assuming it is a normal (possibly digital only) console) or released with one version that runs on both Lockhart and Series X?

If it is the former, I am certain no one on GAF will care and the "holding the gen back" narrative will die quickly. If it is the latter then people will be busting out the pitchforks around here.
 

Neo_game

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Notice how in that video the texture quality is maxed out. The Series S simply wont use max resolution textures.
PS5 gpu is probably little better than 2070S. Let us wait and see what RDR3 can do on PS5 once utilized properly. It should be considerably impressive than RDR2 at max settings. But instead the game will be developed for Xbox S specs and will get higher resolution on PS5 and X version. PC version a year down the line will probably get higher setting option. I do not see this as a good thing.
 
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Bolivar687

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The CPU is not the primary determinant for graphical fidelity and the capability of ray tracing alone is not enough to say it won't hold the generation back. Yes, developers have always made games for multiple GPUs but it is widely acknowledged that the popularity of consoles very much holds them back from taking full advantage of the high end and enthusiast class video cards. Admittedly, there are a lot of multiplaform games shine brightly on PC, but the developers pushing the limits are very few and very far between.
 
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Pointing out that the CPU is faster than the PS5 is the most pointless petty shit. The Xbox One has a faster CPU than the PS4 and it lead to no advantage in multi platform games.

You expect that dumb shit in a place like this where we all like to sling mud back and forth but I would hold a reporter to high standards.
 

jakinov

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No one builds a game to the highest spec possible; it isn't economically feasible. You start with the lowest common denominator and stretch from there. This Tom Warren guy seems like an idiot if he doesn't understand basic economics.
They don't build to the highest spec possible but they don't necessary always build to the lowest common denominator either. If that were the case Nintendo would be gimping multiplatform games since the Wii. Companies probably aren't going to put in extra work to make sure it's super duper optimized on each console. But how much effort they want to put in having pretty graphics is ultimately up to them. If you think that because there's a weaker console, that because of "economics" they are going to not push graphics then why would they push graphics if there's a more powerful console? Having more power doesn't mean they have to do more. Companies do more and push for more because they want to or because they think that people like new shiny pretty things. Other people in the industry also pushing graphics makes them want to push the graphics to stay competitive. Companies do care about money but a lot of top people including the old EA CEO that everyone hates do believe in trying to making (subjectively) better products to get more money. At the end of last generation the EA CEO was calling for new consoles because he wanted to make better games. Then they also invested 100 million dollars in R&D. Developers also push to make each sequel look better and better. They don't do it because they need to reach the ceiling of the lowest common denominator they do it because they believe in improving graphics to bring value (immersion and eye candy) to their products. The introduction of wildly differing mid-generation upgrades has also shifted developers to not worry about parity and prove that developers will let one game look/perform significantly better than the other.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

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This discussion would matter if Sony produced some special looking PS5 games.

Right now, MS doesn't have to worry about holding games back because Sony didn't give us a reason to believe generations matter.

Maybe that changes in a few years. Maybe it doesn't.
 

jakinov

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The CPU is not the primary determinant for graphical fidelity and the capability of ray tracing alone is not enough to say it won't hold the generation back. Yes, developers have always made games for multiple GPUs but it is widely acknowledged that the popularity of consoles very much holds them back from taking full advantage of the high end and enthusiast class video cards. Admittedly, there are a lot of multiplaform games shine brightly on PC, but the developers pushing the limits are very few and very far between.
Pointing out that the CPU is faster than the PS5 is the most pointless petty shit. The Xbox One has a faster CPU than the PS4 and it lead to no advantage in multi platform games.

You expect that dumb shit in a place like this where we all like to sling mud back and forth but I would hold a reporter to high standards.
I think the point of pointing out that the CPUs are the same is to prove that workloads involving the CPU wouldn't be impacted at all. Also that I believe a lot of developers complained last generation about weak CPUs holding them back. If the console is targeted to be a non 4K machine, simply cutting the resolution and/or framerate and lowering the strength of graphical effects can likely make up for the lack of GPU power. If developers want to shove in some new graphics effects or shove in whatever, they probably can on Lockhart just not at 4k with super higher resolution texture or at the same framerate.
 

Rikkori

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You know why I'm not worried? Look at the gutter trash that's current-gen base consoles - if we got all the great games we did on this pile of garbage then a Zen2 + ssd beast is gonna absolutely dominate. The lower GPU is ultimately not a problem as graphical options are the easiest to adjust & that's plenty of power for 1080p.
 

Jigsaah

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I'm thinking this is all about Xbox All Access. If the Series S ends up being like $299. It might be a really good option for those who want to get into next gen really cheap.

What's strange is that you haven't really heard Xbox push this so much. Whenever they release the price, they have to push this getting into next gen for $19-29 dollars a month with option to upgrade to the Series X may actually pay off.

Just look at cell phones.

 

jakinov

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A 4tf machine “supports” RTX like the PS5 “supports” 8k/120fps. Hire a better marketing guy MS
From what I read/heard the 4TF more efficiently used that compared to older architectures (or consoles) it's like you have more teraflops. An analogy would be if you were to measure how fast someone can stock a shelf and measure that they can stock 500 items/minute. That's their theoretical peak performance. But in the real-world, the store layout and when you have actually people in the building there's going to be things that prevent you from getting that number. So lets say you only get 50% of our theoretical; so 250 items/minute in the real world. But if you reorganized the store in a way to helps that person work more effectively, they can get much closer to their theoretical limit. So lets say it's now 350 items/minute for the new store layout. That would mean with the new layout you are doing as much work as someone with a theoretical peak 700 items/minute in the old layout with someone doing 500 items/minute in the new layout. Numbers I picked are arbitrary.

Also, ray tracing is hardware-accelerated. They have dedicated hardware for helping with that so that the the 4TF isn't really used to do the ray-tracing.
 

M1chl

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I've seen Xbox's on sale for under 200 euro here in Ireland... which is insane in what they call 'the rip-off republic'.
Releasing a cheaper Xbox will not move the needle, it results on more dev time being put into a platform that sells the least software and has a subscription service that undermines new releases......

It all comes together to make it the most developer unfriendly platform and I believe developers already are voicing their annoyance.
I mean, back in the day, sure. But nowadays, when the games are released on PC, so the settings need to be included anyway. So basically scale down the textures, alpha effect or something like that and boom. It's like Witcher 3 port on Switch, it runs and look like shit, but it does not affect OG game.
 

DavidGzz

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Then why have the XSX at all? Why not release Lockhart as the main console and then release XSX next year with even BETTER specs (ie 14 TFs with more RAM Bandwidth) for full 4K gaming?
Because MS cares about a power advantage as well for the people who want that, plus it would give Sony a year head start where power is concerned. Why do you all care so much that MS wants a lower end option for people who couldn't care less about 4k?
 
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DeeDogg_

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From what I read/heard the 4TF more efficiently used that compared to older architectures (or consoles) it's like you have more teraflops. An analogy would be if you were to measure how fast someone can stock a shelf and measure that they can stock 500 items/minute. That's their theoretical peak performance. But in the real-world, the store layout and when you have actually people in the building there's going to be things that prevent you from getting that number. So lets say you only get 50% of our theoretical; so 250 items/minute in the real world. But if you reorganized the store in a way to helps that person work more effectively, they can get much closer to their theoretical limit. So lets say it's now 350 items/minute for the new store layout. That would mean with the new layout you are doing as much work as someone with a theoretical peak 700 items/minute in the old layout with someone doing 500 items/minute in the new layout. Numbers I picked are arbitrary.

Also, ray tracing is hardware-accelerated. They have dedicated hardware for helping with that so that the the 4TF isn't really used to do the ray-tracing.
4tf Navi is still not enough to handle RTX. I dont even think PS5s 10Tfs can give us full RTX effects without making the game a slideshow. Its PR speak
 
Jun 28, 2013
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The lowest common denominator is a lie and will not be the case.

Just as you can play crysis in a 6600gt, and just prettier with a 6800gt.

There wont be game design compromises, just a loss in pretty pixels.
FACTS.

XBOX ONE will just have a lost in pretty pixels. There wont be game design compromises.
 
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Panajev2001a

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This, I believe, is the crux of the friction, though. Will games be ported to Lockhart (assuming it is a normal (possibly digital only) console) or released with one version that runs on both Lockhart and Series X?

If it is the former, I am certain no one on GAF will care and the "holding the gen back" narrative will die quickly. If it is the latter then people will be busting out the pitchforks around here.
Most games will have one version with few of them, some of the AAAA first party most likely, having essentially two versions in one.
 

Mistershine.

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so he saying lockhart is just another gaming pc? eitherway its not about how many decade devs been doing this...i worry about devs effort and work..optimization is not easy as 'turn magic slider up or down'..if it that simple we wont have game like AC Unity where the sliders wont do jackshit despite it being made by well known devs with hundreds of manpower around the globe

for smaller devs optimization is not easy especially indie..more work to them and remember even this gen lot of devs still dont bother to release upgrade patch for stronger verrsion ps4 pro/x1x..even recent Resident Evil 4 miss proper patch for x1x..i wonder what happened later to 'weaker' lockhart...and later at mid generation when both sony and ms release stronger midgen refresh of ps5 and xsx, thats make 3 sku for xbox consoles devs need to optimize....for big company they might have resource for the task..but i wonder about the rest....i wont suprise among lockhart and stronger iteration of xsx, one of it might get neglected by devs..and i wonder how this lockhart would perform at further phase of generation where games getting demanding than ever.

but if they still want to release it, better they do it later 1-2 years after next gen start, where there better hardware for it that could give more juice for developers

personally i think this is bussiness decision, not come from their technical team.
Isn't AC unity cpu bound rather than gpu? That's why it runs better on the xbox one than the ps4.
 
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M1chl

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KIllzone: SF a launch games for PS4 was using 4.5gb of RAM targeting 1080P 30fps. Games now can use max of 5.5gb. If the S version can only use 7.5gb. This seems like a big compromise for so called next gen console. I think game like Far Cry5 on PC already uses 8gb of RAM and there are many other games as well.
I don't disagree, but I remeber on the last Quakecon where was John Carmack, he was talking about crazy memory overhead on PC. I think this was neutered with release of DX12, but how many games are DX12 anyway? Because that API is way more complex, to build on, since it targets HW on much lower level.

Isn't AC unity cpu bound rather than gpu? That's why it runs better on the xbox one than the ps4.
It is, due to drawcalls being handled by CPU, because for some reason Unity and onwards runs like shit without good CPU. I wonder how detailed (how many triangles), can appear on the screen at one time. Because there is no advance physic or something like that.

Makes me think that maybe now it's the time to release AC: Unity, because this gen consoles did not pulled it off.
 
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