Totalbiscuit on current controversies: "This game supports more than two players"

[nynt9]

A long form article from him talking about how the issue is being straw manned by all sides of the discussion and how extremism is stifling real discussion

http://blueplz.blogspot.com/2014/08/this-game-supports-more-than-two-players.html

Let's look at the current “battleground”. On one side, we have those defending Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian. On the other, we have those attacking them. Seems simple doesn't it?

Where does all this trench-digging, black and white, absolute nonsense and nonsense of absolutes come from? I'd say a lack of empathy for the most part, an unwillingness to put yourself in someone elses shoes or perhaps even an inability to do so. It is being perpetrated by anonymous individuals and known writers. It makes me sick. Just a few hours ago an article was published claiming that “Gamers are over” It claims “Gamer” isn’t just a dated demographic label that most people increasingly prefer not to use. Gamers are over. That’s why they’re so mad.”. The article seems to revel in this idea of a “gamer”, defining what a “gamer” with terms like “obtuse shitslingers, these wailing hyper-consumers, these childish internet-arguers”. I guess it's easy to attack someone once you've labeled them the enemy. It's much easier than trying to understand where all this anger comes from.

While it might feel good to be on what you think is the “right side”, the world is not so black and white, there is no organized hategroup that you can revile as universally bad and attack with absolute moral authority. In reality, some developers and journalists are engaging in actively vilifying, stereotyping and outright attacking the very people who are part of the demographic they create their products for. Likewise some of these people are attacking developers for doing little more than saying “hey yeah so maybe we should have more diversity in game writing” or defending someone who they see being harassed. They all believe their cause is righteous. All I see are reasonable voices being drowned out, discussion derailed and people getting hurt.

Why put any of these people on the defensive? Engage with them in a discussion if they're willing. I don't believe videogames are all about chopping up women and I think I can prove that if I'm given the chance to. I don't believe that videogames cause players to develop sexist attitudes, just as I believe they don't cause players to become violent. I also don't believe that everything portrayed in videogames is ok. Lots of videogames are really bad for a wide variety of reasons, mechanical or otherwise. They're often dumb, bull-headed and they pander oh boy do they pander. I want better videogames because I think our hobby can soar even higher than it currently does.

There's a bit more to it so you should read all of it before posting. Also don't let your opinion of TB color what he's saying here, you can dislike him but still agree with him.

Edit: there's also an audio version if reading a huge wall of text is bothersome

It's easier to listen to it https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/this-game-supports-more-than-two-players-jazz-edition.

The most reasonable response to all of this.

 

[jabuseika]

It's easier to listen to it https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/this-game-supports-more-than-two-players-jazz-edition.

The most reasonable response to all of this.

 

[nynt9]

It's easier to listen to it https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/this-game-supports-more-than-two-players-jazz-edition.

The most reasonable response to all of this.

Wasn't aware there was an audio version, adding to OP

 

[DrSlek]

Bolsh! Flimshaw!

There's no please for reason and logical thinking in these disputes!

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I didn't think anyone in the gaming press had the sensitivity and the intelligence to write something I agreed with pretty much completely. Fitting that it would be a YouTuber. They are the future.

 

[Freeman]

He spoke sense.

 

[NexusCell]

Dislike him as much as you want, but TB often has a pretty solid grasp of these issues.

 

[JesseEwiak]

No, actually, I don't think most of the people posting about how there's a secret conspiracy involving Zoe Quinn, the Protocol Elders of Zion, and Kotaku are worth having a discussion with. Are there people worth having a discussion with, as far as those who "just want good games?"

Sure.

But, the vast majority of the people I see here taking the anti-diversity chalice, especially when it comes to indie games or the enthusiast press being massively corrupt toward indie devs with even less money than me are beyond being convinced.

In other words, I'm a hardcore social democrat. Yeah, I can convince the guy whose just listened to some dumb campaign commercials and some wacko family members. I'm not going to convince the guy who's hero is Sean Hannity and truly believes there was massive voter fraud in 2012.

 

[Tetsuo9]

This encapsulates pretty well my feelings on this whole debacle.

 

[Intheflorsh]

What is a Social Justice Warrior? Can you define it? It'd be difficult I would imagine. You could probably come up with some defining attributes but then good luck applying them to all the people you want to. At that point you simply have to fudge the truth because it makes your life easier. Dishonesty, both literal and intellectual is required and once you start doing that, you lose my respect. What is a “Men's Rights Activist”? Same thing applies.

Mmm... I don't think this comparison is the best since Social Justice Warrior was coined as a kind of slur whereas some people willingly identify as MRA. No one (that I know of) has ever self identified as a SJW.

With that minor criticism aside, I like the premise of having less name calling on the interwebs.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I didn't think anyone in the gaming press had the sensitivity and the intelligence to write something I agreed with pretty much completely. Fitting that it would be a YouTuber. They are the future.

Well, I mean, they are anyways, but TB really hit this home with some perspective. Hopefully it can take some of the air from the sails of enforced side-taking going on right now (which is already becoming more and more a zero sum battle by the day).

 

[GavinUK86]

No, actually, I don't think most of the people posting about how there's a secret conspiracy involving Zoe Quinn, the Protocol Elders of Zion, and Kotaku are worth having a discussion with. Are there people worth having a discussion with, as far as those who "just want good games?"

Sure.

But, the vast majority of the people I see here taking the anti-diversity chalice, especially when it comes to indie games or the enthusiast press being massively corrupt toward indie devs with even less money than me are beyond being convinced.

In other words, I'm a hardcore social democrat. Yeah, I can convince the guy whose just listened to some dumb campaign commercials and some wacko family members. I'm not going to convince the guy who's hero is Sean Hannity and truly believes there was massive voter fraud in 2012.

What the fuck are you talking about?

 

[Ryaaan14]

I didn't expect him to touch on this, but I'm not surprised that he hit the nail on the head.

It'll fall on deaf ears though unfortunately.

 

[nynt9]

No, actually, I don't think most of the people posting about how there's a secret conspiracy involving Zoe Quinn, the Protocol Elders of Zion, and Kotaku are worth having a discussion with. Are there people worth having a discussion with, as far as those who "just want good games?"

Sure.

But, the vast majority of the people I see here taking the anti-diversity chalice, especially when it comes to indie games or the enthusiast press being massively corrupt toward indie devs with even less money than me are beyond being convinced.

In other words, I'm a hardcore social democrat. Yeah, I can convince the guy whose just listened to some dumb campaign commercials and some wacko family members. I'm not going to convince the guy who's hero is Sean Hannity and truly believes there was massive voter fraud in 2012.

Aren't you doing the exact thing this article is arguing against, which is pigeonholing everyone who doesn't hold your position into a hive mind?

 

[JesseEwiak]

I didn't realize TotalBiscuit was trying to become gaming's equivalent of the mainstream media stating "both sides do it," when one side is immeasurably worse than the other.

 

[Deadbeat]

Aren't you doing the exact thing this article is arguing against, which is pigeonholing everyone who doesn't hold your position into a hive mind?

It'll fall on deaf ears though unfortunately.

.

 

[Riposte]

I didn't realize TotalBiscuit was trying to become gaming's equivalent of the mainstream media stating "both sides do it," when one side is immeasurably worse than the other.

Listening to it, he is more saying "there are more than two sides"... hence the title.

 

[Marjar]

TotalBiscuit's involvement in this whole clusterfuck pretty much completely changed my opinion on him.

I just wish both sides of this would calm down and listen to this instead of harassing everyone who dares to have an opinion different than their own.

 

[plagiarize]

No, actually, I don't think most of the people posting about how there's a secret conspiracy involving Zoe Quinn, the Protocol Elders of Zion, and Kotaku are worth having a discussion with. Are there people worth having a discussion with, as far as those who "just want good games?"

Sure.

But, the vast majority of the people I see here taking the anti-diversity chalice, especially when it comes to indie games or the enthusiast press being massively corrupt toward indie devs with even less money than me are beyond being convinced.

In other words, I'm a hardcore social democrat. Yeah, I can convince the guy whose just listened to some dumb campaign commercials and some wacko family members. I'm not going to convince the guy who's hero is Sean Hannity and truly believes there was massive voter fraud in 2012.

Right. The two 'sides' here are those of us who want gaming to be more inclusive, vs those who want it to remain targeted disproportionately at them. I don't hate anyone who disagrees with points Anita makes... I disagree with some of her points...

but gaming is not as inclusive as certain other forms of entertainment and it wouldn't hurt it's appeal for it to become so. straight white guys aren't going to stop liking gaming en masse if every game isn't catered to them exclusively, or if almost every protagonist isn't a straight white guy.

genre TV is much more diverse and inclusive these days than it used to be, it's fandom more unisex... and all that happened without genre TV becoming something guys couldn't enjoy.

so no, I don't have much time for people who don't want to see gaming become more inclusive, because they're only working against gaming coming out of its adolescence.

 

[reptilescorpio]

This echos a lot of my feelings over the past week or so.

Hopefully everyone can calm down and try to make progress towards avoiding these kinds of situations in the future soon.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I don't always agree with TotalBisquit, but this was a great response to all this madness.

 

[backlot]

Honestly, this just kinda comes off as a defense of MRA's to me. Especially the quotes selected for this OP.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Right. The two 'sides' here are those of us who want gaming to be more inclusive, vs those who want it to remain targeted disproportionately at them. I don't hate anyone who disagrees with points Anita makes... I disagree with some of her points...

but gaming is not as inclusive as certain other forms of entertainment and it wouldn't hurt it's appeal for it to become so. straight white guys aren't going to stop liking gaming en masse if every game isn't catered to them exclusively, or if almost every protagonist isn't a straight white guy.

genre TV is much more diverse and inclusive these days than it used to be, it's fandom more unisex... and all that happened without genre TV becoming something guys couldn't enjoy.

so no, I don't have much time for people who don't want to see gaming become more inclusive, because they're only working against gaming coming out of its adolescence.

Bingo.

Is everybody who plays a male-focused game a horrible misogynist who hates women? Of course not.

But on the other hand, are far larger percentages of the current gaming crowd, especially on places like Reddit, massive misogynists with severe entitlement issues when it comes to gender, and it was shown this week? Absolutely.

And honestly, the only reason it wasn't as bad on GAF is many of this crowd have been culled in previous gender flare ups and even then, there was plenty of either concern trolling or idiocy, even when actual females came in and wrote posts.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

The article seems to revel in this idea of a “gamer”, defining what a “gamer” with terms like “obtuse shitslingers, these wailing hyper-consumers, these childish internet-arguers”. I guess it's easy to attack someone once you've labeled them the enemy. It's much easier than trying to understand where all this anger comes from.

Well said.

 

[SPE]

Honestly, this just kinda comes off as a defense of MRA's to me. Especially the quotes selected for this OP.

Either you didn't read the article, or your confirmation bias is breathtaking.

 

[aly]

Honestly, this just kinda comes off as a defense of MRA's to me. Especially the quotes selected for this OP.

Do you have to be MRA to be annoyed at some of the games media's holier than tho attitude? I'm mostly thinking of Leigh's recent article.

 

[culafia]

TB and Jontron have become my favorite voices out of all this.

Like most things, the most reasonable position is somewhere in the middle.

I'm convinced that most people who are all "NO BUT OUR SIDE IS MUCH BETTER AND THEIR SIDE IS MUCH WORSE REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU SAY" don't actually fully understand what the other side wants or is arguing.

Also, MRA and SJW are pretty much used in the exact same way. Blanket derogatory statements that insult a massive group of people when in actuality they are only warranted on a select minority of extremists. If you use MRA to refer to everyone you disagree with, you are literally no better than the people who freely sling SJW around. You're just looking to discredit and insult to make your point look better, and it's pretty pathetic.

 

[Village]

TB and Jontron have become my favorite voices out of all this.

Like most things, the most reasonable position is somewhere in the middle.

I'm convinced that most people who are all "NO BUT OUR SIDE IS MUCH BETTER AND THEIR SIDE IS MUCH WORSE REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU SAY" don't actually fully understand what the other side wants or is arguing.

Wat?!

 

[plagiarize]

anything that seems to say 'both vocal sides are just the same' in this debate is ill conceived.

 

[Some Nobody]

Right. The two 'sides' here are those of us who want gaming to be more inclusive, vs those who want it to remain targeted disproportionately at them. I don't hate anyone who disagrees with points Anita makes... I disagree with some of her points...

but gaming is not as inclusive as certain other forms of entertainment and it wouldn't hurt it's appeal for it to become so. straight white guys aren't going to stop liking gaming en masse if every game isn't catered to them exclusively, or if almost every protagonist isn't a straight white guy.

genre TV is much more diverse and inclusive these days than it used to be, it's fandom more unisex... and all that happened without genre TV becoming something guys couldn't enjoy.

so no, I don't have much time for people who don't want to see gaming become more inclusive, because they're only working against gaming coming out of its adolescence.

A part of that is that genre TV didn't have a ton of people writing a billion articles about how we should just "get used to" things being different. They just were different one day. Comic books have a problem similar to video games--a ton of people seem to have trouble with the idea that characters shouldn't always be straight white males. People write tons of articles about how it's wrong, how it should be different, and all you get are arguments.

But then, you have something like Astro City, one of my favorite books. The writer just tosses in a character that's gay, or black, or female, or whatever for an issue, and they're the star of that book. And no one says shit. I think if you're going to do it, you're going to have to trick people, a lot of times. It's sad to say, but true.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I didn't realize TotalBiscuit was trying to become gaming's equivalent of the mainstream media stating "both sides do it," when one side is immeasurably worse than the other.

I'm sensitive to criticisms of false equivalency when it comes to Democrats and Republicans, but I don't think this is the same. The effect of "both sides do it" in the political context is to suggest that both political parties lie to the public and manipulate voters to a similar extent, which is clearly untrue: we know what the Republican party's stances are, we know what the Democratic party's stances are, and we know which ones are more in keeping with the consensus of experts in pretty much every discipline.

This isn't so much "both sides do it," this is more: there aren't really coherent sides at all, just a bunch of people behaving uncivilly towards each other and trying to define each other's group affiliations for them. Yes, the worst of the incivility is coming from one extreme of the debate, but that extreme isn't representative of that wing of the debate in the same way that the Republican party is representative of conservative thought. No one makes Republican politicians apologize for Stormfront members' posts just because they inhabit the same side of the political spectrum.

 

[Savitar]

Listening to this now and he makes sense with what he's saying.

And the music is relaxing and enjoyable as well.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Wat?!

C'mon, when a guy RTing a post stating that people who were conducting lynching thought they were SJW's 100 years ago, he's totally an awesome dude.

 

[ZeroGravity]

Mmm... I don't think this comparison is the best since Social Justice Warrior was coined as a kind of slur whereas some people willingly identify as MRA. No one (that I know of) has ever self identified as a SJW.

Many of them on tumblr and the like actively do identify as such.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

There's no equivelency here. Gross nerd is right.

 

[Tetsuo9]

Right. The two 'sides' here are those of us who want gaming to be more inclusive, vs those who want it to remain targeted disproportionately at them. I don't hate anyone who disagrees with points Anita makes... I disagree with some of her points...

but gaming is not as inclusive as certain other forms of entertainment and it wouldn't hurt it's appeal for it to become so. straight white guys aren't going to stop liking gaming en masse if every game isn't catered to them exclusively, or if almost every protagonist isn't a straight white guy.

genre TV is much more diverse and inclusive these days than it used to be, it's fandom more unisex... and all that happened without genre TV becoming something guys couldn't enjoy.

so no, I don't have much time for people who don't want to see gaming become more inclusive, because they're only working against gaming coming out of its adolescence.

Seems to me like a false dichotomy, because I want gaming to be more inclusive, have a lot more games to play with my wife cause she doesn't like violent games, but at the same time, I like my violent games and angry warcraft orcs and bayonetta style action games, which my wife can't enjoy.

 

[Some Nobody]

Honestly, this just kinda comes off as a defense of MRA's to me. Especially the quotes selected for this OP.

If anything, and this is just me, it comes off as suggesting that not everyone who has a criticism or disagrees on a point, is an MRA. That came out a little more clearly in his Twitlonger post, though.

 

[culafia]

Wat?!

Regardless of whether you disagree with his past actions and statements, Jontron has been a great alternative voice during all this.

 

[Disaster Nebraska]

It's very hard to have these sort of conversations because the "sides" insist on turning it into a battle, not dissimilar to how major channels take political issues and twist them and form them to suit one side or another. It rallies the troops and presents a clean-cut side for you to choose.

It is essentially political, and I hate it. Not something I want to see grow in the game industry.

We saw it constantly throughout this "situation". One side gets extreme and makes accusations, and then suddenly the other side interprets any criticism or critical thought as an attack, so they shut it out and try to yell louder. Heck, it's already happening in this thread.

We mock mainstream news channels like Fox or CNN or NBC or (take your pick; take your side) all the time for what we perceive to be a lack of journalistic integrity on hot-button issues. We mock these channels for playing sides and pushing a political agenda.

And yet? We get played SO HARD by videogame journalists who - let's be perfectly honest - don't have a fraction of the professional training or experience or integrity of our "LOL FAUX NEWZ" channels. But we get led along by the nose so easily.

 

[Deadbeat]

Either you didn't read the article, or your confirmation bias is breathtaking.

They didnt read the article. The upcoming storm of drive by shitposters will also not read the article, basically reinforcing the whole point TB was getting at.

 

[cloudzack117]

P.S. 30fps still sucks

died of laughter at this part. agree 100% with the article.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I would love to see common sense and the ability to see shades of grey in the gender wars. Unfortunately they involve immature people on both sides who. egged on by click bait sites and outrage headlines haven't developed that much capacity for differentiation yet, so it's just frigid bitches vs rapists all the time.

 

[Village]

Regardless of whether you disagree with his past actions and statements, Jontron has been a great alternative voice during all this.

You mean when he acted like an ass on twitter and dug himself in a deeper hole along with posting vulgar pornagraphic images and saying that Quinn isn't worth the drama because she isn't someone he finds attractive.


I'm sorry, WAT?!

 

[JesseEwiak]

Many of them on tumblr and the like actively do identify as such.

Well, at this point, it's kind of taking back the word, in a very, small, small, small, small, small, small, (and did I say small, because it's a bad analogy overall) way like some black people use 'nigger.'

I'm sensitive to criticisms of false equivalency when it comes to Democrats and Republicans, but I don't think this is the same. The effect of "both sides do it" in the political context is to suggest that both political parties lie to the public and manipulate voters to a similar extent, which is clearly untrue: we know what the Republican party's stances are, we know what the Democratic party's stances are, and we know which ones are more in keeping with the consensus of experts in pretty much every discipline.

This isn't so much "both sides do it," this is more: there aren't really coherent sides at all, just a bunch of people behaving uncivilly towards each other and trying to define each other's group affiliations for them. Yes, the worst of the incivility is coming from one extreme of the debate, but that extreme isn't representative of that wing of the debate in the same way that the Republican party is representative of conservative thought. No one makes Republican politicians apologize for Stormfront members' posts just because they inhabit the same side of the political spectrum.

Well, actually, you've kind of made your own point. When 90% of your side are acting like massive assholes, the fact that you're a decent person doesn't really matter. Yeah, Olympia Snowe and a few other Republican's in Congress. Because the rest of the caucus is ruled by mouthbreathers, they have no actual power.

If your main problem out of all of this is "indie devs and games press in SF are too close," OK. Aside from that, there's not really much from the anti-Anita/Quinn/SJW crowd that's defensible. And you can be pro-SJW and worried about the game dev/games press relationship for rational reasons, even if I'm not.

 

[ZeroGravity]

If anything, and this is just me, it comes off as suggesting that not everyone who has a criticism or disagrees on a point, is an MRA. That came out a little more clearly in his Twitlonger post, though.

You're entirely right. One of the reason why thus subject brings very little reasonable discussion is because it starts off with one side painting the other as something they're not.

 

[SolidSnakex]

anything that seems to say 'both vocal sides are just the same' in this debate is ill conceived.

What he seems to be saying is that neither seem to be willing to listen to the other. So it's just the same back and forth. If people would calm down and actually try to communicate with one another (and not through Twitter!) then everyone would see that there really isn't anything to fear here nor is there any reason to hate or be nasty to one another.

 

[plagiarize]

A part of that is that genre TV didn't have a ton of people writing a billion articles about how we should just "get used to" things being different. They just were different one day. Comic books have a problem similar to video games--a ton of people seem to have trouble with the idea that characters shouldn't always be straight white males. People write tons of articles about how it's wrong, how it should be different, and all you get are arguments.

But then, you have something like Astro City, one of my favorite books. The writer just tosses in a character that's gay, or black, or female, or whatever for an issue, and they're the star of that book. And no one says shit. I think if you're going to do it, you're going to have to trick people, a lot of times. It's sad to say, but true.

Comic books (and summer blockbusters) have issues too. Criticism is going to help move things in the right direction. I've seen many game creators improve in light of criticism along the lines that Anita is putting out, even if they feel she goes too far.

Genre TV didn't 'just' change one day. The people making it changed it because they felt it had issues that needed fixing. If criticism can get more game creators to wake up and realize the same thing about gaming... then things get better.

Gears of War 3 and The Last of Us were both directly influenced by such criticisms. One of those games is beloved by the gaming community. What people are afraid of happening is unrealistic and baseless. I don't see why progress should be slowed to address baseless fears.

I don't see why I have to be 'reasonable' to bigots in order to attain some moral high ground (or middle ground). I don't see how that helps improve the situation in any way shape or form. I don't really care about the feelings of a group trying to prevent gaming maturing and becoming more inclusive and representative of all the people that play them.

 

[culafia]

You mean when he acted like an ass on twitter and dug himself in a deeper hole along with posting vulgar pornagraphic images and saying that Quinn isn't worth the drama because she isn't someone he finds attractive.


I'm sorry, WAT?!

That second half was never referring to her attractiveness -- it was specifically referring to her character. He clarified as such.

 

[Village]

C'mon, when a guy RTing a post stating that people who were conducting lynching thought they were SJW's 100 years ago, he's totally an awesome dude.

he did what?!

 

[JesseEwiak]

You're entirely right. One of the reason why thus subject brings very little reasonable discussion is because it starts off with one side painting the other as something they're not.

So, what's the good reason to be against feminist criticism of gaming, especially since there's a feminist critique of everything from comic books to Saturday morning TV to reality crime shows?