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[Phoenician_Viking]

Good on TB for not taking part of this.

 

[alstein]

The influence review copies over have this industry is infuriating. Large publishers can manipulate the message far too easily because they hold what is a pretty inexpensive item over publications.

It works as long as we don't make someone pay for it. We can either take it out on the publishers, or on the game "journalism" outlets. The outlets are a much lower-hanging target, but the best solution would be not buying the games that do this.

Gamers don't have enough discipline to forego the hot shiny though. Why real protest movements won't work.

 

[KJRS_1993]

Gamers don't have enough discipline to forego the hot shiny though. Why real protest movements won't work.

Why should they have any discipline whatsoever?
I think people, especially on this forum, do not realise just how little of a crap the average person gives about this sort of thing.
For the simple reason that, to them, this whole ethics debate is boring. They buy, they play, they enjoy, and their relationship with games goes no deeper than that whatsoever.

You tell your average gamer (not hypersensitive GAF member - average person) that Destiny had some content cut from it, or that some websites didn't receive a game to review on time, and expect nothing more than an indifferent shrug in response.

I don't mean to undermine the whole discussion, but such a tiny percentage of people who play games are interested that even if a boycott was organised, it wouldn't make barely a dent in overall sales. I think it's important to remember that

 

[scytheavatar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBPmkfu_zs8

In case anyone here cared, Totalbiscult gave his opinion on the game. TL;DL is that he quite liked the game.

 

[jacksepticeye]

People act as though this is something thats never happened in the world of gaming before, you think websites never got early access to games for money? Sure a lot of youtubers rely on their morals and ethics to give good honest reviews to the people but that's a case of you choosing to watch youtubers who do this shit or not.

Plus brand deals dont usually tell you to praise a game endlessly or anything. You can still dislike a game and say it openly if you want in the brand deals ive seen before

 

[duessano]

Publishers have the right to do these things, we can just choose to not buy the game. No game is worth giving in to Publisher demands.

Nice to see TotalBiscuit shining some light.

 

[Brewster's Wallet]

Publishers have the right to do these things, we can just choose to not buy the game. No game is worth giving in to Publisher demands.

Nice to see TotalBiscuit shining some light.

This is where I agree with the TB line that the consumers are the biggest roadblock to this/their own worst enemies when it comes to new games.
You have people buying the games sight unseen, plus some will defend a game even before they've played it

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

This is where I agree with the TB line that the consumers are the biggest roadblock to this/their own worst enemies when it comes to new games.
You have people buying the games sight unseen, plus some will defend a game even before they've played it

Thought this issue was not about with the game actual quality...

 

[Archaix]

Hi guys, boogie here.

I have indeed accepted a brand deal with the WB to promote this game. This is not unusual for me as the majority of gameplay I generate is a brand deal, due to me not working with an MCN that will cover my ass. Youtube needs 'express written permission' still for gameplay videos to be monetized, so that's what I do. In order to get that express written permission with a lot of games you have to work on a deal like this.


I wrote a blog post about this and will also be making a video about it this week. I think you might find my blog post interesting because I detail this deal, and deals like it.
http://boogie2988.tumblr.com/post/98717807838/about-brand-deals-youtube-and-you

The good news about all of this is some youtubers, myself included, make a point of making sure you know when we've accepted a paid promotion. I will identify this at both the beginning of the video and in the description to make sure no one is mislead.

However, I think in the case of reviewers or people who are wanting to take a critical look at a game (such as totalbiscuit), having to accept this type of deal is a deathstroke.

I see nothing wrong with paid promotion as long as the consumer is informed and can take that into consideration.

I see EVERYTHING wrong with a reviewer not being able to get a review copy of the game, if the only way to do that is to sign some bullshit contract that will restrain them.

Feel free to criticize me on the issue as well. What I've chosen to do is acceptable to me; Play a game, capture it, have fun doing it and sharing the fun with my fans. If its not acceptable to you I understand, and I'm glad to hear as to why you think that way.

It's a true shame that people think you're trustworthy.

 

[gogosox82]

So in his ENTIRE YT career he's NEVER accepted a SINGLE marketing deal?

I don't understand the weird "OMG the CONTROVERSY!!" thing that gaming has going on atm. No other industry has this issue; nobody questions early film reviews coming out or accuses movie journalists of being paid off because they got the tickets free.

He's never taken a branding deal for a game he's critiquing like Shadow of Mordor. He has for games he likes playing or casting. I believe he recently took one for Strife but its apparent that its a branding deal because its displayed both on the screen at the beginning and in the description.

And even if he did, that doesn't mean he can't criticize the process and talk about how damaging he thinks it is. We are getting to a point where pr is just not using traditional media and just giving the game to ytbers and steamers and just telling to be positive about the game which is honestly a bit shady when you consider the fact that they aren't allowing any reviews up until the day the game releases. This just isn't good for consumers when these types of things are done.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

It's a true shame that people think you're trustworthy.

Jesus, dude...

 

[BreezyLimbo]

It's a true shame that people think you're trustworthy.

Yeah just attack someone without making an argument. That always works.

 

[Rolf NB]

Why should they have any discipline whatsoever?
I think people, especially on this forum, do not realise just how little of a crap the average person gives about this sort of thing.
For the simple reason that, to them, this whole ethics debate is boring. They buy, they play, they enjoy, and their relationship with games goes no deeper than that whatsoever.

You tell your average gamer (not hypersensitive GAF member - average person) that Destiny had some content cut from it, or that some websites didn't receive a game to review on time, and expect nothing more than an indifferent shrug in response.

I don't mean to undermine the whole discussion, but such a tiny percentage of people who play games are interested that even if a boycott was organised, it wouldn't make barely a dent in overall sales. I think it's important to remember that

They may not care about the debate taking place about the issue, but their purchasing decisions are nonetheless made by who gets the most exposure, what game "people" say is the current hotness. I.e. marketing. Especially if all messaging about the product initially is marketing, because nothing else is allowed through. So the practice does affect them after all.

 

[Archaix]

Yeah just attack someone without making an argument. That always works.

I didn't attack anybody. If he wants his channel to be full of commercials, that's his choice. The fact that people ignore that his channel is full of commercials and pretend as though his opinion given can be trusted is the part that disappoints me, not just that he's doing it. He's constantly brought up as one of the "good guys" on Youtube, but if you're willing to accept an advertising deal (which generally will come with stipulations that you are not allowed to be negative, as TB alleged about this very deal) in exchange for providing coverage of a game, you're nothing more than a marketing outlet for PR.

He makes his choices. He is willing to throw away any sort of integrity in exchange for covering popular new games. It's a disgusting practice and he actively takes part in it, he can deal with the criticism or choose not to engage in the discussion.

To take it a step further, by agreeing to deals like this he's taking an active part in making coverage of games worse and less reliable. Because there are enough people who will accept these deals, the publishers don't have to think twice about making them a requirement to cover the game. It hurts not only his own content by removing the ability to trust anything he says, but everybody else's by removing their access.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I didn't attack anybody. If he wants his channel to be full of commercials, that's his choice. The fact that people ignore that his channel is full of commercials and pretend as though his opinion given can be trusted is the part that disappoints me, not just that he's doing it. He's constantly brought up as one of the "good guys" on Youtube, but if you're willing to accept an advertising deal (which generally will come with stipulations that you are not allowed to be negative, as TB alleged about this very deal) in exchange for providing coverage of a game, you're nothing more than a marketing outlet for PR.

He makes his choices. He is willing to throw away any sort of integrity in exchange for covering popular new games. It's a disgusting practice and he actively takes part in it, he can deal with the criticism or choose not to engage in the discussion.

Is it wrong for him to make money? I classify Boogie as 'Entertainment', that is, I don't look to his channel for reviews or to consider my next purchase, whatever that may be. Boogies a funny guy. If I want to make a decision on buying a game, I'll look towards GiantBomb or TotalBiscuit. if I want to be entertained or watch some gameplay, then when Boogie puts that up, I'll watch it(And he rarely puts up gameplay on his channel).

Boogie also has vblogs on things that are separated from ad deals or anything-If I want his opinion on something and he voices it, I can listen to that. Taking an ad deal isn't going to shatter his integrity, no matter how much you think he's 'throwing it away'.

But hey, I'm all for accusing people of not having integrity for taking an ad deal and then talking about how it was an ad deal. Devils, they are! Shameless! How DARE they talk about taking an ad deal /s

 

[Archaix]

Is it wrong for him to make money? I classify Boogie as 'Entertainment', that is, I don't look to his channel for reviews or to consider my next purchase, whatever that may be. Boogies a funny guy. If I want to make a decision on buying a game, I'll look towards GiantBomb or TotalBiscuit. if I want to be entertained or watch some gameplay, then when Boogie puts that up, I'll watch it(And he rarely puts up gameplay on his channel).

Boogie also has vblogs on things that are separated from ad deals or anything-If I want his opinion on something and he voices it, I can listen to that. Taking an ad deal isn't going to shatter his integrity, no matter how much you think he's 'throwing it away'.

But hey, I'm all for accusing people of not having integrity for taking an ad deal and then talking about how it was an ad deal. Devils, they are! Shameless! How DARE they talk about taking an ad deal /s

You can work in advertising or you can have integrity. You can't do both.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

You can work in advertising or you can have integrity. You can't do both.

But Boogie isn't working in advertising. He just took an advertisement deal. All the video game review sites partake in that, they display advertisements. I guess none of them are trustworthy?

 

[Archaix]

But Boogie isn't working in advertising. He just took an advertisement deal. All the video game review sites partake in that, they display advertisements. I guess none of them are trustworthy?

Not the ones providing advertisements shaped like content, no. Which, yes, is most of them.

Boogie is working in advertising. He's producing commercials for game publishers in exchange for money, with limits and rules on what that content can contain, and posting them on his channel. That people like yourself can't or won't see this is exactly why I have a problem with it.

 

[RicoTheMad]

Not the ones providing advertisements shaped like content, no. Which, yes, is most of them.

Boogie is working in advertising. He's producing commercials for game publishers in exchange for money, with limits and rules on what that content can contain, and posting them on his channel. That people like yourself can't or won't see this is exactly why I have a problem with it.

The guy is posting a disclaimer saying it's paid content.

I see nothing wrong with that, other than the fact that Youtubers used to be the best means of getting your indie game out to the mainstream crowd, but now that publishers are putting them in their pockets, indies are back to having to spend cash we don't have for every single little thing, which is cash we could really use for development instead.

IMHO that's the biggest issue with youtubers taking sponsored deals like that. Not just that though, but a lot of them monetize their videos, the profits of which they keep in their entirety.

It basically sucks extra hard for indies because not only are you now having to pay people for exposure (because everyone else seems to be doing it, yes, some indies do it too) but then the very people you are paying are also making money off the content you created.

That is what I think the real problem with this thing is. It's not going in a good direction, imho.

 

[Turin Turambar]

It's a true shame that people think you're trustworthy.

But.. he is saying he doesn't make reviews, nor critical pieces. So, what part of the consumer's decision making is affected by his trustworthiness?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Not the ones providing advertisements shaped like content, no. Which, yes, is most of them.

Boogie is working in advertising. He's producing commercials for game publishers in exchange for money, with limits and rules on what that content can contain, and posting them on his channel. That people like yourself can't or won't see this is exactly why I have a problem with it.

If it started seeping into his regular videos, yeah, that would be a problem. But it isn't. When he does a Magic unboxing video, he clearly mentions in the beginning that the cards are provided by X and that the site is X.

Welcome to Youtube. Do you have a problem with NeoGAF displaying Googlesense ads on the side? Do you have a problem with youtube videos having an ad infront of them? Do you have an issue, that when you watch a video, you're just another click for them? That they don't really care about you?

You're taking it a bit too far. It's not a 'Us vs. Them' scenario, where Boogie must be seen as some sort of advertiser with no integrity, and that we should distrust him and if we think otherwise, then we're the 'problem'.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

I don't care if companies do this... public companies are going to act like public companies. Their execs and marketing guys wouldn't hold their jobs very long if they didn't. But I don't particularly like if they trick lie to consumers about their influence. Gotta disclose that stuff. And I don't really know much about TB; I don't pay much attention to Youtubers, game reviewers, etc anymore, but I've a feeling I've disagree with him before... but at least in this case, I like that he sent out those tweets. So good on TB for exposing it I guess so at least consumers know that if they consume certain early previews or reviews, they can decide for themselves whether to trust it or not.

 

[Archaix]

Welcome to Youtube. Do you have a problem with NeoGAF displaying Googlesense ads on the side? Do you have a problem with youtube videos having an ad infront of them? Do you have an issue, that when you watch a video, you're just another click for them? That they don't really care about you?

Both of those examples completely miss the point. Neither of those are content creators who are being paid to make positive content by the people they otherwise would normally cover.

You're taking it a bit too far. It's not a 'Us vs. Them' scenario, where Boogie must be seen as some sort of advertiser with no integrity, and that we should distrust him and if we think otherwise, then we're the 'problem'.

It's very much that. Nothing he says can or should have any credibility because he's being paid by the people he covers.

But.. he is saying he doesn't make reviews, nor critical pieces. So, what part of the consumer's decision making is affected by his trustworthiness?

It doesn't matter what he says when reality disagrees. Many of his viewers, most of whom are children, see him doing a video as a recommendation and not as a paid endorsement.

 

[Chinbo37]

Im proud to say that besides a few trailers here and there I dont really watch previews at all. I wait until a game is commercially released and then I get feedback on GAF.

I dont have to have games right when they come out and I think this practice has saved me a lot of money over the years.

 

[Fuz]

Why should they have any discipline whatsoever?
I think people, especially on this forum, do not realise just how little of a crap the average person gives about this sort of thing.
For the simple reason that, to them, this whole ethics debate is boring. They buy, they play, they enjoy, and their relationship with games goes no deeper than that whatsoever.

...and they fuck up the market and the consumer's rights more and more and more.

 

[ebullientprism]

It kinda sucks that a games media/writer's job, which is a real job and doesn't involve just playing games all day, is met with disdain over and over here on GAF. Some people are quick to point "LOL gAemz Joornalism coprrupt $$$!" to EVERYONE, even without evidence, nor reason.

Its hilarious that you go from "GAF IS PERSECUTING US UNFAIRLY" to immediately claiming that YouTubers are being monetarily groomed without naming any specific people or sources.

I mean is this -

I'm not familiar with TB in any way, but I know for a fact that PR/publishers have been targeting YouTubers for the past few years. Same reason why some get to be flown in for preview events with the promise of "exclusive b-roll footage" or some other thing to make sure they can upload vids that only they have, which equates to views, and in turn, money.

Either that or straight to the point of: upload gameplay video and then we pay you -- which has been talked about here on GAF.

Seeing as a lot of YouTubers have a ton of subscribers, and not a lot of people will even know of things like these, I gather these things work the way PR/publishers intend them to. Otherwise, we'd see less of 'em rather than more.

any worse than what GAF says about game "journalists" and their corrupt ways?

You complaint about being treated unfairly and immediately one post later do it to another section of the gaming press that is in direct competition with you?

 

[boogie2988]

Not the ones providing advertisements shaped like content, no. Which, yes, is most of them.

Boogie is working in advertising. He's producing commercials for game publishers in exchange for money, with limits and rules on what that content can contain, and posting them on his channel. That people like yourself can't or won't see this is exactly why I have a problem with it.

By your reasoning, every youtuber works in advertising. 90% of most youtuber's income (more if they don't take sponsored deals) is from ads being delivered on the youtube page their videos appear on.

I get that you don't like ads, and I get that you don't like the people who make them, create them, or star in them. That's fine, I feel that same way about a lot of ads too.

But I only endorse things that I... well, for lack of a better term... endorse.

I don't see why endorsing a game that I truly believe is good is wrong. I don't see how that can make me untrustworthy.

EVERY contract I have ever signed has an exit clause. Sometimes they force me to pay money as a punishment (this particular contract did) but I assure you that I would have gladly paid that money than to promoted a game that I didn't believe was good.

I genuinely believe that you can advertise products you believe in, and still maintain your integrity. Clearly you don't and that's ok. We'll have to agree to disagree.

For YOU I'm not trustworthy. To hundreds of thousands of others, they also disagree with you and I'm quite glad. <3

 

[stevil]

So in his ENTIRE YT career he's NEVER accepted a SINGLE marketing deal?

I don't understand the weird "OMG the CONTROVERSY!!" thing that gaming has going on atm. No other industry has this issue; nobody questions early film reviews coming out or accuses movie journalists of being paid off because they got the tickets free.

Appart from the fact that a movie can be completed in a couple of hours where most game can not, a free ticket is not the same thing as a deal where you have to market the product and or can't say anything bad about it. In most markets this is not done (movies, books, gadgets, cars etc)