Toxic Femininity

Jan 11, 2016
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is there? because it seems like you guys are willing to talk about everything and anything but female toxicity
Does it seem like that? Because I've mentioned it repeatedly. It seems like the sticking point is not so much that as the idea that toxic masculinity exists at all
 
Nov 13, 2016
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This sounds like issues, man. I'm guessing your ex was a bitch or you just haven't found a girl at all? Mommy issues maybe?
That's not fair. Feminists get to complain all day long about how men have fucked over women for thousands of years, but as soon as I so much as propose we explore the other side of that subject, I'm called a bitter ex or virgin. You shouldn't make assumptions like that. I could be gay, or even a girl!
 

matt404au

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How should I respond to a post saying that this is a one sided attack on men? That attitude is just a hostile victimology. It has no basis in any of the points I've put out there and just reflects an extreme hostility toward women. Is it wrong to suggest that hostility comes from someplace?

I have known people that went down the whole MRA rabbit hole. To a one they were on the autism spectum, single, and angry at women. One of the eventually found a girlfriend and renounced all of it shortly thereafter. Let's not pretend this isn't a thing.
He asked you a reasonable question about the reciprocal ways in which so-called toxic femininity negatively affects men. You proceeded to suggest that his ex was a bitch and that he has mommy issues. Now you're suggesting that all of us questioning your toxic masculinity narrative are MRA autists who are single and angry at women.

Go fuck yourself you ideologue cunt.
 
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Stop speculating on the personal details of other users here. Engage on positions. Final warning.
You shouldn't make assumptions like that. I could be gay, or even a girl!
But you aren't and I'm right, so let's not get indignant, okay? I'm not here to judge, but you're clearly working out some kind of resentment that represents an unhealthy relationship with the opposite sex, whatever that may be. We can talk about that, or we can continue to bullshit.
 
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But you aren't and I'm right, so let's not get indignant, okay? I'm not here to judge, but you're clearly working out some kind of resentment that represents an unhealthy relationship with the opposite sex, whatever that may be. We can talk about that, or we can continue to bullshit.
I would rather you stick to the topic of the thread than speculate about my relationship status.
 
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But you aren't and I'm right, so let's not get indignant, okay? I'm not here to judge, but you're clearly working out some kind of resentment that represents an unhealthy relationship with the opposite sex, whatever that may be. We can talk about that, or we can continue to bullshit.
Or we can talk about the thread topic instead of your strawmanning and whataboutisms, and not make things personal.

As for the bolded, sounds exactly like third-wave feminism to me, that instead of working on it themselves they make a bullshit terms like toxic masculinity to mask their, what is it again, oh yes, daddy issues.

You should be familiar, you used the term mommy issues.
 
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I would rather you stick to the topic of the thread than speculate about my relationship status.
I bet. But make no mistake, the rise of anti-feminism and the fact that young people are having less sex and fewer relationships are not unrelated. I'm not saying you're alone on this, but it's a thing, a community even, that is forming its own way of talking about these issues.

As for the bolded, sounds exactly like third-wave feminism to me
I'm not sure you know what third wave feminism actually is. Third wave feminism is about intersectionality, and the way gender issues can affect different women differently. It is not some bogeyman about man-hating, that's some Milo Yiannopoulos shit.
 
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I bet. But make no mistake, the rise of anti-feminism and the fact that young people are having less sex and fewer relationships are not unrelated. I'm not saying you're alone on this, but it's a thing, a community even, that is forming its own wa9y of talking about these issues.


I'm not sure you know what third wave feminism actually is. Third wave feminism is about intersectionality, and the way gender issues can affect different women differently. It is not some bogeyman about man-hating, that's some Milo Yiannopoulos shit.
Bullshit, I never once listened to that dude's speeches,.I don't even know what his voice sounds like. Not to mention he's younger than me so my ideals were far before he was a nut in his father's sack.

But I do know it's a bunch of fucking mental gymnastics and if it's about intersectionality they tend to turn the cheek of what goes on in the Middle East in the crisis of women rights there. They love to adopt.certain terminology to weaponize against the opposite sex, what are you doing to make it better?

I see through your fake ass bullshit trying to constantly derail the thread and not ever let it stay on topic, get fucked.
 
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I bet. But make no mistake, the rise of anti-feminism and the fact that young people are having less sex and fewer relationships are not unrelated. I'm not saying you're alone on this, but it's a thing, a community even, that is forming its own way of talking about these issues.
I don't know why you're saying all these things to me, as they're completely unrelated to me as well as the subject at hand. If you can't or won't answer my question, just stop replying to me. If you think my question is too retarded to even consider, that's fine. But at least stay on topic.
 
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I don't know why you're saying all these things to me, as they're completely unrelated to me as well as the subject at hand. If you can't or won't answer my question, just stop replying to me. If you think my question is too retarded to even consider, that's fine. But at least stay on topic.
But your question was answered repeatedly. Toxic masculinity DOES hurt men more than women. Toxic masculinity is not just about how men treat women, it has always been first and foremost about men's poor emotional health, about how closing themselves off from sensitivity and empathy isn't psychologically healthy and can be responsible for higher suicide rates and all of that.

You're fixated on this idea that "toxic masculinity" is about chastising men mistreating women, and while that might sometimes be an outgrowth of a poorly cultivated sense of empathy, it kind of misses the point of the conversation. If you aren't hearing the conversation about how men are hurt, it's because you're willfully plugging your ears, not because it isn't happening.

And that's why I responded to your post the way you did. Because you told me you didn't want to hear the answer and that no one cares about it. How do you respond to that? It's clearly motivated by hurt, and it isn't a rational point I can retort.
 
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But your question was answered repeatedly. Toxic masculinity DOES hurt men more than women. Toxic masculinity is not just about how men treat women, it has always been first and foremost about men's poor emotional health, about how closing themselves off from sensitivity and empathy isn't psychologically healthy and can be responsible for higher suicide rates and all of that.

You're fixated on this idea that "toxic masculinity" is about chastising men mistreating women, and while that might sometimes be an outgrowth of a poorly cultivated sense of empathy, it kind of misses the point of the conversation. If you aren't hearing the conversation about how men are hurt, it's because you're willfully plugging your ears, not because it isn't happening.

And that's why I responded to your post the way you did. Because you told me you didn't want to hear the answer and that no one cares about it. How do you respond to that? It's clearly motivated by hurt, and it isn't a rational point I can retort.
How do you respond to someone who resorts to ad hominems, you're speculating about a users sexual life and relationship with his mother, and then you get all upset that people aren't taking you seriously.

Also making the claim that young kids are having less sex than before, and then somehow saying that it's because they don't support feminism requires some Olympic mental gymnastics.
 
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Also making the claim that young kids are having less sex than before, and then somehow saying that it's because they don't support feminism requires some Olympic mental gymnastics.
What? No, you got it completely backwards. I'm saying that because they aren't having close relationships with women and are sexually frustrated, there's an anger toward women and a culture of victimology that blames feminism and sees men as persecuted that emerges, and that men who are in happy, loving relationships with women are far less inclined to share this worldview.

This isn't really speculation, this viewpoint is explicitly spelled out pretty much everywhere in the "manosphere." Look at communities like MGTOW or redpill, or various incel sites and you see this sort of resentment expressed constantly.
 
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What? No, you got it completely backwards. I'm saying that because they aren't having close relationships with women and are sexually frustrated, there's an anger toward women and a culture of victimology that blames feminism and sees men as persecuted that emerges, and that men who are in happy, loving relationships with women are far less inclined to share this worldview.

This isn't really speculation, this viewpoint is explicitly spelled out pretty much everywhere in the "manosphere." Look at communities like MGTOW or redpill, or various incel sites and you see this sort of resentment expressed constantly.
Not everyone who dislikes feminism does so because they are "sexually frustrated and incapable of having close relationships".

And where's the evidence? Is there any proof? Why do you think the number of people in loving relationships has decreased over the years?
 
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How do you respond to someone who resorts to ad hominems, you're speculating about a users sexual life and relationship with his mother, and then you get all upset that people aren't taking you seriously.

Also making the claim that young kids are having less sex than before, and then somehow saying that it's because they don't support feminism requires some Olympic mental gymnastics.
It also doesn't make any sense. If kids are having less sex than before, wouldn't that be because of feminism, not anti-feminism. It's not as is anti-feminism is mainstream or controls popular culture.

Seems as if you pick and choose whatever fits your agenda Hygogg
 
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And that's why I responded to your post the way you did. Because you told me you didn't want to hear the answer and that no one cares about it. How do you respond to that? It's clearly motivated by hurt, and it isn't a rational point I can retort.
I didn't say I didn't want to hear it, I said I thought that was boring. Because that's just a boring, safe answer that doesn't seem to want to invite further discussion or thought. When terms like partriarchy, rape culture and #MeToo are thrown around by feminists, which are all manifestations of (toxic) masculinity, a phrase like "Well, women feel kinda restricted by social norms and expectations." just pales in comparison, right?

I tried looking up toxic masculinity on wikipedia. It has a lot of information there, and opinions from writers, psychologists and all that. Toxic femininity? Doesn't even seem to have a page. That's why I wanted to explore the subject further. Y'know, in this thread titled TOXIC FEMININITY. I just find it fascinating that the male version of this issue gets so much exposure, whereas the female one is basically ignored. Even in this very thread.

And like I said before, if you think my question is too dumb to answer, for whatever reason, be it because I'm "motivated by hurt" or whatever else you can dream up, just don't answer? You could've just said: I don't have a more interesting answer for you. All there is to it is that toxic feminine behavior is mostly aimed inward, whereas toxic men hurt women as well." and we'd be done here a long time ago.
 
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It also doesn't make any sense. If kids are having less sex than before, wouldn't that be because of feminism, not anti-feminism.
Why would either of those things be the cause? You're sort of proving my point here...

I didn't say I didn't want to hear it, I said I thought that was boring. Because that's just a boring, safe answer that doesn't seem to want to invite further discussion or thought. When terms like partriarchy, rape culture and #MeToo are thrown around by feminists, which are all manifestations of (toxic) masculinity, a phrase like "Well, women feel kinda restricted by social norms and expectations." just pales in comparison, right?
I don't think all those terms are interchangeable, no, and I don't think they mean what you think they do by the same token.

I tried looking up toxic masculinity on wikipedia. It has a lot of information there, and opinions from writers, psychologists and all that. Toxic femininity? Doesn't even seem to have a page.
Which sort of undermines your point that we only care about women, eh?
 
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Why do you think the number of people in loving relationships has decreased over the years?
So that's a complicated question that we don't have a definitive answer to. I think "feminist oppression" is not a very compelling answer, but there isn't a ton of research either way at this point.

If I was asked to make a hypothesis, I would say that technology has made it increasingly easy to socialize in more impersonal ways, and as people retreat more from face-to-face interactions as their primary means of socializing, their socialization skills become poor, particularly with regard to physical and intimate scenarios. Basically, people spend too much time texting and chatting online to scratch their social itch and they don't learn how to read body language, gauge interest, or just lack the confidence to even attempt in the first place. In the past, you were forced into more face to face interaction for socializing, you hung out and talked on the phone more than kids now, and so you got better at these things.
 
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Zog

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What? No, you got it completely backwards. I'm saying that because they aren't having close relationships with women and are sexually frustrated, there's an anger toward women and a culture of victimology that blames feminism and sees men as persecuted that emerges, and that men who are in happy, loving relationships with women are far less inclined to share this worldview.

This isn't really speculation, this viewpoint is explicitly spelled out pretty much everywhere in the "manosphere." Look at communities like MGTOW or redpill, or various incel sites and you see this sort of resentment expressed constantly.
So you are saying that the pro-male groups are having a real world impact?
 
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Zog

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I'm saying they are a symptom of a greater problem in how men are socialized.
They are waking men up to the misandry of modern society. The gender discussion has belonged to feminists for too long, some balance is welcome. If men are saying no to the current double standards, good for them.
 
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They are waking men up to the misandry of modern society. The gender discussion has belonged to feminists for too long, some balance is welcome. If men are saying no to the current double standards, good for them.
This seems like a rather naive characterization of the movement, which tends to focus more on making men feel like victims for their failures than it does actionable policy goals.
 
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Which sort of undermines your point that we only care about women, eh?

All the pages upon pages of information and "studies" about toxic masculinity aren't focused on "caring about men." It's all meant to shame men, to make men hate themselves and start thinking there is something wrong with them.

It's also used as justification for women to make fun of men, hate men more and pass more laws restricting the freedom of men (because we are so toxic and dangerous, we have to be controlled, see?).
 
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Zog

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This seems like a rather naive characterization of the movement, which tends to focus more on making men feel like victims for their failures than it does actionable policy goals.
Policy goals? No, it's more of a word of mouth thing. Men telling other men that they should protect themselves.
 
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All the pages upon pages of information and "studies" about toxic masculinity aren't focused on "caring about men." It's all meant to shame men, to make men hate themselves and start thinking there is something wrong with them.
No, toxic masuculinity literally exists entirely by shaming men, making them hate themselves and making them think there's something wrong with them. It's imposing a bullshit standard on men that doesn't allow them to practice good emotional health, express themselves, ask for help when they need it, accept their sexuality, etc. Toxic masculinity is why the suicide rate for men is so much higher.

You're living in opposite world, here.
 
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It's telling people their failures are their own fault, rather than teaching them to overcome their failures.
It's telling that you're still replying and still not discussing what this topic is about and making dismissals to anything that doesn't align with your narrative.
Saying "But I am" and then continuing not to stopped being convincing a page or two ago.

Would you like to continue derailing this topic or would you like to actually engage with what it is about?
 
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Yeah ok. Whatever you say, I am just happy to hear the pro-male groups are having an impact.
Yes, they are excellent at encouraging bad emotional health in men that prevent them from having functioning relationships and increasing the suicide rate.

If MRA forums were full of happily married men who didn't want to kill themselves or cry into their beer, then that might be another conversation, but it looks more to me like doubling down on the toxins and getting twice the negative symptoms.
 
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It's telling that you're still replying and still not discussing what this topic is about and making dismissals to anything that doesn't align with your narrative.
Saying "But I am" and then continuing not to stopped being convincing a page or two ago.

Would you like to continue derailing this topic or would you like to actually engage with what it is about?
I tried to repeatedly but the most I've gotten from anyone is "I've made up my own definition of toxic masculinity and refuse to discuss the term as others actually apply it."
 

Zog

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Yes, they are excellent at encouraging bad emotional health in men that prevent them from having functioning relationships and increasing the suicide rate.

If MRA forums were full of happily married men who didn't want to kill themselves or cry into their beer, then that might be another conversation, but it looks more to me like doubling down on the toxins and getting twice the negative symptoms.
On MRA forums, the most common reason for depressed men is the family court system that treats fathers like nothing more than sperm donors and wallets. The #MeToo movement has done a great job of showing men some important double standards. The response to the Gillette ad was evidence that men are just getting tired of the double standards and are beginning to fight back. Feminist dominance may be coming to an end.
 
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On MRA forums, the most common reason for depressed men is the family court system that treats fathers like nothing more than sperm donors and wallets.
While this is legitimate, and I think the court system is unfair to men in custody cases, it's objectively not the main cause of unhappy men on MRA forums.
 
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I don't think all those terms are interchangeable, no, and I don't think they mean what you think they do by the same token.
But I never claimed that... I brought them up as examples of problems feminists have identified and popularized, that can all be traced back to toxic masculinity. Without toxic masculinity there can be no patriarchy, there can be no rape culture and there'd be no #MeToo. Feminism probably wouldn't be necessary without toxic masculinity.

Which sort of undermines your point that we only care about women, eh?
From your perspective perhaps, since you seem to think toxic masculinity is mostly brought up when talking about how to help men (which I fundamentally disagree with, and it seems I'm not the only one in this thread) but I think it actually supports my opinion that feminists in particular love playing the victim, pointing fingers at others to explain all the problems they face, whereas they're not much interested in introspection. I'd say that's why there's no discussion going on about toxic femininity, as that would require them to take responsibility.

I tried to repeatedly but the most I've gotten from anyone is "I've made up my own definition of toxic masculinity and refuse to discuss the term as others actually apply it."
We all feel the same way then. I think you're blind if you think toxic masculinity is a hot topic issue because of the desire to help men. From my perspective it is brought up as it relates to women, 9 times out of ten.

Let me list just a few examples here:
Notice how none of these people talk about how men are victims under this toxic masculinity. They're all perpetrators, even if they don't do anything wrong in particular. You said toxic masculinity is first and foremost brought up to help men. I don't see it.
 
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It's telling that you're still replying and still not discussing what this topic is about and making dismissals to anything that doesn't align with your narrative.
Saying "But I am" and then continuing not to stopped being convincing a page or two ago.

Would you like to continue derailing this topic or would you like to actually engage with what it is about?
no, you see HyGogg is now going to lecture us about the dangers of MGTOW or whatever. Maybe insult some people some more

Anything but talk about toxic femininity
 
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Whataburger

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Then why is it called "toxic masculinity" instead of bad parenting? Or bad behavior? Or bad teaching? What aspects of "masculinity" have caused that word to be part of the definition? There are numerous behaviors lumped under the umbrella of "toxic masculinity" that aren't taught at all: teenage boys need no instruction when it comes to leering at people they're attracted to, for instance.

Masculinity is of course more than what someone is taught, since it also concerns biological characteristics and lived experiences.

If your standpoint is "toxic masculinity" = "bad things that boys are taught" , then you do not comprehend the meaning of the word, nor do the people who taught you that definition.


Indeed, which is strange that we cite "random internet morons" for evidence that the gaming industry is overrun by toxic masculinity.


No, I never said whether I think they're being taught the same thing (all of it? Some?). You are putting words in my mouth. You also say "literally" a lot. You also seem to know exactly what I really mean a lot. Are you psychic?

How many are "loads" of parents? You're not going to get a reaction out of me by appealing to a moral panic. The issue at hand is whether or not toxic masculinity is a real thing. We cannot even seem to pin down a functioning definition. Let's do that before we worry about some parents who are SPECIFICALLY and quite purposefully ignoring the modern parenting loudly and proudly, causing all this evil toxic masculinity to rise all around us, poisoning our society.
Dude stop being so toxic jfc!
 
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But I never claimed that... I brought them up as examples of problems feminists have identified and popularized, that can all be traced back to toxic masculinity. Without toxic masculinity there can be no patriarchy, there can be no rape culture and there'd be no #MeToo. Feminism probably wouldn't be necessary without toxic masculinity.


From your perspective perhaps, since you seem to think toxic masculinity is mostly brought up when talking about how to help men (which I fundamentally disagree with, and it seems I'm not the only one in this thread) but I think it actually supports my opinion that feminists in particular love playing the victim, pointing fingers at others to explain all the problems they face, whereas they're not much interested in introspection. I'd say that's why there's no discussion going on about toxic femininity, as that would require them to take responsibility.


We all feel the same way then. I think you're blind if you think toxic masculinity is a hot topic issue because of the desire to help men. From my perspective it is brought up as it relates to women, 9 times out of ten.

Let me list just a few examples here:






Notice how none of these people talk about how men are victims under this toxic masculinity. They're all perpetrators, even if they don't do anything wrong in particular. You said toxic masculinity is first and foremost brought up to help men. I don't see it.
Agreed. Toxic masculinity is about blaming men, forcing them to take the blame and feel guilty, and then trying to force them into submission whatever feminist agenda is on the table.
 
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