• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

News Trump declares "houses of worship as essential places that provide essential services"

Gunztrix

Member
Mar 14, 2012
265
133
590
lol he wants them open not because its safe to do so but because its part of his effort to get re-elected. I mean I maybe be wrong but haven't a couple of pastors that died? I know of atleast one. Either way its very smart move to pin himself as the recovery president.

But hay this is Trumps experiment, if they want to open religious places go ahead. And people have freedom of choice so if they want to put themselves in situations that can lead to contacting covid then so be it.

I wouldnt characterize this as "tyrannical", I would say it's "selfish" because at the end of the day its about his reelection not about the people.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
22,955
49,270
1,335
USA
dunpachi.com
lol he wants them open not because its safe to do so but because its part of his effort to get re-elected. I mean I maybe be wrong but haven't a couple of pastors that died? I know of atleast one. Either way its very smart move to pin himself as the recovery president.

But hay this is Trumps experiment, if they want to open religious places go ahead. And people have freedom of choice so if they want to put themselves in situations that can lead to contacting covid then so be it.

I wouldnt characterize this as "tyrannical", I would say it's "selfish" because at the end of the day its about his reelection not about the people.
Trump isn't declaring this in a vacuum. Religious orgs and churches have already been pushing back against their local/state gov't when it comes to gathering for worship. This has been going on for weeks and has been debated since the beginning. Trump is simply stepping back and admitting that it isn't the Federal gov't's role to step in, and he pleaded with governors to do the same (and they can choose to step in anyway, which may get them sued like we are seeing in some states).
 

#Phonepunk#

Gold Member
Sep 4, 2018
11,709
18,678
705
39
he is otm. as much as liberals hate to admit it, churches provide much needed essential services and above all charity. they run shelters. they run soup kitchens. housing for the disabled. hospitals. etc. they do a lot of good.

they pick up the slack that their "progressive" cousins don't really care about. you aren't seeing Apple or Marvel running thrift stores and soup kitchens. this is a big reason why they get tax exempt status.
 

Airola

Member
Jun 25, 2015
4,384
3,233
475
Finland
Trump's getting old. He understands the importance of having places to help tune into the unknown, as he himself gets closer and closer to the great unknown.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Rran

Gunztrix

Member
Mar 14, 2012
265
133
590
Trump isn't declaring this in a vacuum. Religious orgs and churches have already been pushing back against their local/state gov't when it comes to gathering for worship. This has been going on for weeks and has been debated since the beginning. Trump is simply stepping back and admitting that it isn't the Federal gov't's role to step in, and he pleaded with governors to do the same (and they can choose to step in anyway, which may get them sued like we are seeing in some states).

Personally I don't care if they open or don't. Ultimately individuals are going to do what they want.

But, I do think its important to note if we are still not allowing gatherings of other kinds such as concerts and shows due to risk of spreading covid. Then why should religious gathering get an exception? If we are going to open religious gatherings then we should open all other types of gatherings too.

Also, Trump isn't just "stepping back". Albeit he does not have to power to do so he threatened to override the governors if they don't.

From his statements from today he said:

"The governors need to do the right thing and allow these very important, essential places of faith to open right now, for this weekend," he said. "If they don't do it, I will override the governors. In America, we need more prayer, not less."

Edit: link https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1213106
 
Last edited:

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
22,955
49,270
1,335
USA
dunpachi.com
Personally I don't care if they open or don't. Ultimately individuals are going to do what they want.

But, I do think its important to note if we are still not allowing gatherings of other kinds such as concerts and shows due to risk of spreading covid. Then why should religious gathering get an exception? If we are going to open religious gatherings then we should open all other types of gatherings too.

Also, Trump isn't just "stepping back". Albeit he does not have to power to do so he threatened to override the governors if they don't.

From his statements from today he said:

"The governors need to do the right thing and allow these very important, essential places of faith to open right now, for this weekend," he said. "If they don't do it, I will override the governors. In America, we need more prayer, not less."

Edit: link https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1213106
Yes, Trump doesn't have the authority to stop Americans from exercising their constitutional rights. So he is clarifying this by pointing out religious freedom is also 'essential' in the USA according to our laws, and if we can keep liquor stores and abortion clinics open, certainly people can gather for religious services.

Further, if governors want to keep interfering, it's quite literally President Trump's job and oath to ensure that American citizens receive their constitutional rights, even when the local government refuses to.

Ever hear of the civil rights movement and black voter suppression? If a local church congregation got locked up by the police for worshipping, it would be entirely appropriate for the state or Federal gov to step in on behalf of the imprisoned people and make things right.

In the midst of a crisis we should always be wary of gov't trying to seize more power, but now we have people genuinely criticizing the gov't for not seizing enough power.
 

Gunztrix

Member
Mar 14, 2012
265
133
590
Yes, Trump doesn't have the authority to stop Americans from exercising their constitutional rights. So he is clarifying this by pointing out religious freedom is also 'essential' in the USA according to our laws, and if we can keep liquor stores and abortion clinics open, certainly people can gather for religious services.

Further, if governors want to keep interfering, it's quite literally President Trump's job and oath to ensure that American citizens receive their constitutional rights, even when the local government refuses to.

Ever hear of the civil rights movement and black voter suppression? If a local church congregation got locked up by the police for worshipping, it would be entirely appropriate for the state or Federal gov to step in on behalf of the imprisoned people and make things right.

In the midst of a crisis we should always be wary of gov't trying to seize more power, but now we have people genuinely criticizing the gov't for not seizing enough power.
I suppose agree with you more than I disagree.

Also its a false equivalence to say "If a local church congregation got locked up by the police for worshipping" when the reason you got "locked up" is because your broke social distancing guidelines designated by the executive order of the governor of the state.

And I don't think a liquor store are essential but it can operate without spreading covid much like restaurants can do curb business to. And I think if abortion clinics are allowed to stay open then other health services should of been allowed to stay open unless you choose to close.
 
Last edited:

cryptoadam

... and he cannot lie
Feb 21, 2018
12,978
19,581
1,030
Does anyone have the CDC guidelines for churches?

If there is SD, limited capacity, and masks then I think its ok.
 

HeresJohnny

Member
Mar 14, 2018
4,658
8,411
525
It's a really tough argument to make if one wants to say on one hand that people can go to Lowe's but they can't go worship their God if that's their thing. It's just another extension of the "you can buy weed but not seed" ridiculousness that governor shit for brains in Michigan issued. It's completely illogical and doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If people can social distance while buying a goddamned ceiling fan, why can't they social distance and go to mass?
 
Last edited:

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dec 3, 2013
35,215
55,216
1,170
It's a really tough argument to make if one wants to say on one hand that people can go to Lowe's but they can't go worship their God if that's their thing. It's just another extension of the "you can buy weed but not seed" ridiculousness that governor shit for brains in Michigan issued. It's completely illogical and doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If people can social distance while buying a goddamned ceiling fan, why can't they social distance and go to mass?
Can’t have people congregating in their church and having a sense of community. That may strengthen them.
 

Riven326

Would place his sister in the spank bank.
Mar 25, 2019
2,563
3,525
535
United States
It's a really tough argument to make if one wants to say on one hand that people can go to Lowe's but they can't go worship their God if that's their thing. It's just another extension of the "you can buy weed but not seed" ridiculousness that governor shit for brains in Michigan issued. It's completely illogical and doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If people can social distance while buy a goddamned ceiling fan, why can't they social distance and go to mass?
Because you can worship a deity at home and it's a lot safer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: K1Expwy

HeresJohnny

Member
Mar 14, 2018
4,658
8,411
525
Because you can worship a deity at home and it's a lot safer.
You can flap your arms or stick your head in the freezer if you want to cool off, too. \
You can't get communion though, not in the real sense anyway. The Catholics have a prayer that basically requests God commune with you at times when you are not able to take it yourself, but it's not meant to be used long-term.

EDIT: Still a pretty weak argument that it's okay for people to risk infection so they can paint Aunt Ginny's spare bedroom a new shade and that's okay, but going to mass is not.
 
Last edited:

Whataborman

Member
Apr 19, 2018
227
284
320
Glad to see this happening.

My argument has always been that the government shouldn't be dictating what businesses can and can't stay open, and they certainly shouldn't be dictating which churches can and can't be open.

I understand the safety issues related to the pandemic but the Constitution does not magically disappear during an emergency. At those times it's more important than ever.
 

Riven326

Would place his sister in the spank bank.
Mar 25, 2019
2,563
3,525
535
United States
You can flap your arms or stick your head in the freezer if you want to cool off, too. \
You can't get communion though, not in the real sense anyway. The Catholics have a prayer that basically requests God commune with you at times when you are not able to take it yourself, but it's not meant to be used long-term.

EDIT: Still a pretty weak argument that it's okay for people to risk infection so they can paint Aunt Ginny's spare bedroom a new shade and that's okay, but going to mass is not.
Being frustrated over the fact that they can't commune is preferable to suffering coronavirus. This is based on the idea that church services are essential. I ask you, what is essential about it?
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Unknown Quantity

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dec 3, 2013
35,215
55,216
1,170
You can flap your arms or stick your head in the freezer if you want to cool off, too. \
You can't get communion though, not in the real sense anyway. The Catholics have a prayer that basically requests God commune with you at times when you are not able to take it yourself, but it's not meant to be used long-term.

EDIT: Still a pretty weak argument that it's okay for people to risk infection so they can paint Aunt Ginny's spare bedroom a new shade and that's okay, but going to mass is not.
You can worship the mighty dollar in your ritualistic exchange of in God We Trust, but you can’t worship with the hymns of the Lord amongst the souls of your peers.
 

HeresJohnny

Member
Mar 14, 2018
4,658
8,411
525
Being frustrated over the fact that they can't commune is preferable to suffering coronavirus. This is based on the idea that church services are essential. I ask you, what is essential about it?
I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it's no less essential than going to Lowe's or any of the other mundane shit that's been deemed "essential" and people haven't gotten their testicles all twisted up over it. I'm saying it's fucking stupid to have these varying implementations of fairness. I would ask you, who are you (or anyone) to say that buying goods at a hardware store is any more essential than going to worship your God? Who gets to be in the Cool Kids Club and decide who gets to do what?
 
Last edited:

autoduelist

Member
Aug 30, 2014
12,882
23,540
905
Being frustrated over the fact that they can't commune is preferable to suffering coronavirus. This is based on the idea that church services are essential. I ask you, what is essential about it?
Being mobile is preferable to falling while mountain climbing or skate boarding. That is, you don't get to dictate to me what values I should hold or what actions I can or can not do based on your assessment of risk. My evaluation of essential will necessarily be different than yours, correct?
 
Last edited:

Riven326

Would place his sister in the spank bank.
Mar 25, 2019
2,563
3,525
535
United States
I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it's no less essential than going to Lowe's or any of the other mundane shit that's been deemed "essential" and people haven't gotten their testicles all twisted up over it. I'm saying it's fucking stupid to have these varying implementations of fairness. I would ask you, who are you (or anyone) to say that buying goods at a hardware store is any more essential than going to worship your God? Who gets to be in the Cool Kids Club and decide who gets to do what?
Buying goods at a hardware store, or any store for that matter, is more essential than worshipping God in a church because you have to go to the store to buy essentials. You don't have to go to church to worship God.

The people making these decisions should be those that were elected by us to make decisions in times of emergency. I'd say a pandemic qualifies as an emergency.

Frankly, these religious people are irrational. Some of them believe God can cure coronavirus. They are not, and should not, be the ones making these decisions. It's reckless to allow church gatherings to resume.
 

autoduelist

Member
Aug 30, 2014
12,882
23,540
905
Buying goods at a hardware store, or any store for that matter, is more essential than worshipping God in a church because you have to go to the store to buy essentials. You don't have to go to church to worship God.

The people making these decisions should be those that were elected by us to make decisions in times of emergency. I'd say a pandemic qualifies as an emergency.

Frankly, these religious people are irrational. Some of them believe God can cure coronavirus. They are not, and should not, be the ones making these decisions. It's reckless to allow church gatherings to resume.
Wouldn't the simple solution for you be to simply not go to church?
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
22,955
49,270
1,335
USA
dunpachi.com
Buying goods at a hardware store, or any store for that matter, is more essential than worshipping God in a church because you have to go to the store to buy essentials. You don't have to go to church to worship God.

The people making these decisions should be those that were elected by us to make decisions in times of emergency. I'd say a pandemic qualifies as an emergency.

Frankly, these religious people are irrational. Some of them believe God can cure coronavirus. They are not, and should not, be the ones making these decisions. It's reckless to allow church gatherings to resume.
You don't seem to get it: the government doesn't have the authority to suspend them in the first place.
 

HeresJohnny

Member
Mar 14, 2018
4,658
8,411
525
Buying goods at a hardware store, or any store for that matter, is more essential than worshipping God in a church because you have to go to the store to buy essentials. You don't have to go to church to worship God.

The people making these decisions should be those that were elected by us to make decisions in times of emergency. I'd say a pandemic qualifies as an emergency.

Frankly, these religious people are irrational. Some of them believe God can cure coronavirus. They are not, and should not, be the ones making these decisions. It's reckless to allow church gatherings to resume.
It's not up for the government to decide.
 

Riven326

Would place his sister in the spank bank.
Mar 25, 2019
2,563
3,525
535
United States
You don't seem to get it: the government doesn't have the authority to suspend them in the first place.
I know. But that doesn't mean the government should endorse public church gatherings by marking them as essential, when neither the government nor anyone else can tell me how it's essential.
 
Last edited:

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
22,955
49,270
1,335
USA
dunpachi.com
I know. But that doesn't mean the government should endorse public church gatherings by marking them as essential, when neither the government nor anyone else can tell me how it's essential.
I think you're talking yourself in circles with the same questions when several people have already plainly explained.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dargor

autoduelist

Member
Aug 30, 2014
12,882
23,540
905
I know. But that doesn't mean the government should endorse public church gatherings by marking them as essential, when neither the government nor anyone else can tell me how it's essential.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
 

Riven326

Would place his sister in the spank bank.
Mar 25, 2019
2,563
3,525
535
United States
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
I'm not saying you don't have the right to assemble. I'm saying the government has no buisness marking church gatherings as essential given that they are clearly not in the same vein as getting food, for example.
 

Riven326

Would place his sister in the spank bank.
Mar 25, 2019
2,563
3,525
535
United States
Yeah weird, why would the gov't make one of the founding freedoms "essential" or something. Just wacky.
The founders weren't dealing with a virus like this. If they were, I really doubt they would encourage church gatherings. Let's not live in the land of ideals. That's easy. Let's live in reality. This shit is going to get people killed over something they can do from the safety of their own home.
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
6,576
9,320
480
The founders weren't dealing with a virus like this. If they were, I really doubt they would encourage church gatherings. Let's not live in the land of ideals. That's easy. Let's live in reality. This shit is going to get people killed over something they can do from the safety of their own home.
You know what else you can do from the safety of your home? Order your shit from Lowe's.
 

HeresJohnny

Member
Mar 14, 2018
4,658
8,411
525
I'm not saying you don't have the right to assemble. I'm saying the government has no buisness marking church gatherings as essential given that they are clearly not in the same vein as getting food, for example.
Setting aside the constitutional aspects of it, can we at least agree that the argument is disingenuous at face value? I mean, if the argument is "SAFETY" then that standard should apply whether people are in a hardware store or a church pew, right? It's either safe, or it isn't, yes?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dargor and Arkam

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
22,955
49,270
1,335
USA
dunpachi.com
The founders weren't dealing with a virus like this. If they were, I really doubt they would encourage church gatherings. Let's not live in the land of ideals. That's easy. Let's live in reality. This shit is going to get people killed over something they can do from the safety of their own home.
I don't know if you're trolling or you don't have much knowledge on the US's government.

If it helps, let's allow Trump to speak for why they are essential places, since you keep asking all of us but then ignore our responses. You did watch the video, right?

He explains that some governors have omitted churches from consideration of being "essential" while allowing liquor stores and abortion clinics to remain open. The governors have no authority to do so. Trump is being nice when he says it's an "injustice". It's plainly illegal. He goes on to provide further reasons, since you keep asking us why:

- these are places that hold society together
- these are places that keep us united
- people are demanding to go back
- millions consider religion an essential part of life

He then closes by saying if governors won't allow citizens to exercise their constitutional freedoms, "I will override the governors", which is correct. That's his job as president.

You feel as though religious beliefs should not override safety, and they should practice their beliefs from home. Let's flip the script: your beliefs about the virus don't override my constitutional rights. If you want to have an ethical conversation, let's have it, but when it comes to the goverment's role in the matter, you're a fish on dry land. Your guesses as to the motives of the founding fathers are cute, but meaningless. At the end of the day, the president is ensuring that American citizens can exercise their rights without the government interfering. Lockdown was given months to flatten the curve. It's time to reopen. It's not as though churches have been uncooperative or unruly. As far as I can tell, congregations have adapted by doing remote online / radio services or practicing a bit of distance between seating. Why should mosques and churches in a town with 10 or fewer cases close down?
 
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: HeresJohnny

Riven326

Would place his sister in the spank bank.
Mar 25, 2019
2,563
3,525
535
United States
Setting aside the constitutional aspects of it, can we at least agree that the argument is disingenuous at face value? I mean, if the argument is "SAFETY" then that standard should apply whether people are in a hardware store or a church pew, right? It's either safe, or it isn't, yes?
Yes. I can see how it would appear to be disengeuous at gave value. I encourage people to order goods online as well as much as possible.

Hardware stores keep being brought up. Here's the thing. Those stores have to be open to supply essential workers, people like myself, with tools and supplies so that we can do our jobs.

Churches are not essential to anyone's survival. That's even worse than trying to make the case that GameStop is essential because at least GameStop is a buisness with workers on payroll.

Churches are simply buildings designed for gathering on Sunday or whenever to worship a deity. They are not essential to anyone's well being. Members of a church are free to worship anywhere on their own property. This isn't being imposed but was strongly suggest by the federal and state governments until recently. The decision was not made put of malice, but out of practicality for the safety and well being of the populace.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pizdetz

Woo-Fu

incest on the subway
Jan 2, 2007
15,458
3,079
1,515
Don't think it matters whether or not church is an essential service. What does matter is that the federal government shouldn't be telling anybody that they can't go to church.

If Gretchen Whitmer can say scratch-off lotto tickets are essential I'm fairly comfortable with the president saying that church is essential. Arizona classed golf courses, nail salons, and spas as essential, ffs.