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News Trump declares "houses of worship as essential places that provide essential services"

Riven326

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Your opinion on what is or isn't essential has no bearing on rights protected by the constitution. This is starting to reek like fedora-tipping atheist bait.
No shit. I never said that it did. My argument has always been about why I feel church gatherings are not essential and why I feel the government is wrong for deeming them as such. Not an atheist and I don't own a fedora.
 
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HeresJohnny

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Yes. I can see how it would appear to be disengeuous at gave value. I encourage people to order goods online as well as much as possible.

Hardware stores keep being brought up. Here's the thing. Those stores have to be open to supply essential workers, people like myself, with tools and supplies so that we can do our jobs.

Churches are not essential to anyone's survival. That's even worse than trying to make the case that GameStop is essential because at least GameStop is a buisness with workers on payroll.

Churches are simply buildings designed for gathering on Sunday or whenever to worship a deity. They are not essential to anyone's well being. Members of a church are free to worship anywhere on their own property. This isn't being imposed but was strongly suggest by the federal and state governments until recently. The decision was not made put of malice, but out of practicality for the safety and well being of the populace.
Again, if it’s an issue of safety, what difference does it make? If you can have 200 people in a store socially distancing and that is deemed safe, why is to same standard not applied to a place of worship? You’re getting hung up on whether you yourself consider it essential or not, but the issue was predicated on safety. I still want to hear why you consider one safe (not essential —safe) and the other not.
 

Riven326

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Again, if it’s an issue of safety, what difference does it make? If you can have 200 people in a store socially distancing and that is deemed safe, why is to same standard not applied to a place of worship? You’re getting hung up on whether you yourself consider it essential or not, but the issue was predicated on safety. I still want to hear why you consider one safe (not essential —safe) and the other not.
I don't consider either activities safe. Just like working in a hospital or doctors office right now isn't safe. But certain activities are necessary to keep the country going by providing services. These are marked as essential.

Many elderly people go to church and stay there for an hour or more. The chance of infection is higher than if they were to just stay home. This is about being practical as much as anything else.

Again, not saying people can't go, but that they shouldn't go and that the government is making a mistake by encouraging it. That's my position.
 
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Personally I don't care if they open or don't. Ultimately individuals are going to do what they want.

But, I do think its important to note if we are still not allowing gatherings of other kinds such as concerts and shows due to risk of spreading covid. Then why should religious gathering get an exception? If we are going to open religious gatherings then we should open all other types of gatherings too.

Also, Trump isn't just "stepping back". Albeit he does not have to power to do so he threatened to override the governors if they don't.

From his statements from today he said:

"The governors need to do the right thing and allow these very important, essential places of faith to open right now, for this weekend," he said. "If they don't do it, I will override the governors. In America, we need more prayer, not less."

Edit: link https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1213106
Well if schools open back up kids legally have to go back unless their parents want to sign them up for homeschooling or online school. People who are still uncomfortable with going out in public don't have to go back to church.
 

HeresJohnny

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I don't consider either activities safe. Just like working in a hospital or doctors office right now isn't safe. But certain activities are necessary to keep the country going by providing services. These are marked as essential.

Many elderly people go to church and stay there for an hour or more. The chance of infection is higher than if they were to just stay home. This is about being practical as much as anything else.

Again, not saying people can't go, but that they shouldn't go and that the government is making a mistake by encouraging it. That's my position.
So if neither activity is safe, shouldn’t we let people decide how they want to spend their time being unsafe?
As anyone who has gone to Lowe’s can point out, very few people crammed into those stores right now are essential workers. I could barely find a parking spot during the middle of the day on a Wednesday last week; I had to park where they were loading bags of mulch onto people’s trucks. There tons of people there, and many of them were older. I dont know what amount of time the average shopper spends at Lowe’s but I walked out just over an hour later, disinfectant wipes in hand, wiping down as many surfaces as possible, not knowing the CDC was about to tell me all that was a bullshit game we weren’t playing anymore; the new game was all about the masks.
 

Plague Doctor

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Screw hardware stores. Let's go here.

(I will own this upfront. I am an atheist. Well agnostic. Okay, it's complicated.)

Why the fuck are liquor stores essential?

They get awfully crowded. They have been open the entire time. Many apps let you order it online. First responders and essential workers don't need liquor to do their jobs.

I have gotten a lot more personal use from liquor stores than churches in my life, but why are they essential but another person's spiritual health and community is not?

While I myself do not practice nor hold any organized spiritual beliefs, freedom of assembly and personal liberties is as paramount as it gets for me in my political views.
 
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autoduelist

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I'm not saying you don't have the right to assemble. I'm saying the government has no buisness marking church gatherings as essential given that they are clearly not in the same vein as getting food, for example.
The issue is that some governors are criminalizing non-essential behavior, and defining 'essential' in various ways to establish draconian restrictions on behavior. Declaring religious worship essential does an endrun around their unconstitutional orders.
 

Whataborman

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Why the fuck are liquor stores essential?
I'm against the government telling any business they can or can't be open, but I agree with you. If you're writing down a list of "essential" businesses, liquor stores shouldn't be anywhere on it.

The only argument for keeping them open that makes any sense is: alcoholics.

There are a lot of alcoholics and alcohol withdrawal is particularly nasty. I've heard it is 2nd only to heroin in severity and it can kill you. I guess the thought was that hospitals don't need to be dealing with a bunch of alcoholics with the DTs during the middle of a pandemic so keep the liquor stores open and let them drink themselves into a stupor.
 
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FireFly

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Trump is simply stepping back and admitting that it isn't the Federal gov't's role to step in, and he pleaded with governors to do the same (and they can choose to step in anyway, which may get them sued like we are seeing in some states).
So you are saying that states don't have the moral or legal authority to prevent churches from opening?
 

Batiman

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I’m officially convinced some people here will defend every decision this man makes. Like wow. C’mon people think for yourselves for a moment. I understand liking trump and his decisions but it doesn’t mean you have to like all of them and defend every one of them. This one being one of the dumbest. It’s clearly for votes.
 

Davey Cakes

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I’m officially convinced some people here will defend every decision this man makes. Like wow. C’mon people think for yourselves for a moment. I understand liking trump and his decisions but it doesn’t mean you have to like all of them and defend every one of them. This one being one of the dumbest. It’s clearly for votes.
Pandering to religious people and evangelicals has been Trump's bread and butter since the beginning of his presidency. His VP is Mike Pence, for God's sake.

That said, I think the big division in opinion is the right to gather or congregate. Restricting the actions of the people comes off as overly authoritarian. Given the option, people at least know their rights aren't being trampled. Individual freedoms override the dangers and risks.
 
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Batiman

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Pandering to religious people and evangelicals has been Trump's bread and butter since the beginning of his presidency. His VP is Mike Pence, for God's sake.
It’s clear as day which is why I find it baffling people are defending this. Just say he’s being smart to get votes and that’ll be it. Trump knows what he’s doing.
 
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I'm against the government telling any business they can or can't be open, but I agree with you. If you're writing down a list of "essential" businesses, liquor stores shouldn't be anywhere on it.

The only argument for keeping them open that makes any sense is: alcoholics.

There are a lot of alcoholics and alcohol withdrawal is particularly nasty. I've heard it is 2nd only to heroin in severity and it can kill you. I guess the thought was that hospitals don't need to be dealing with a bunch of alcoholics with the DTs during the middle of a pandemic so keep the liquor stores open and let them drink themselves into a stupor.
Grocery stores sell alcohol though, they haven't stopped through Covid. My local grocery store still has a big ass liquor cabinet and so does the drugstore. So liquor stores being open seems super unnecessary. But I am of the personal opinion that whatever businesses want to be open should have the right so.
 
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I’m officially convinced some people here will defend every decision this man makes. Like wow. C’mon people think for yourselves for a moment. I understand liking trump and his decisions but it doesn’t mean you have to like all of them and defend every one of them. This one being one of the dumbest. It’s clearly for votes.
It's been three months since this shit started and people just want to be able to go to church again without their governor threatening to have them arrested. I'm much more of the "open everything" mindset in general, I'm not really particularly religious. Here in my state we are more than fine to reopen. Besides New York and a couple other places, most states are not in crisis right now, at least not because of the virus.
 
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oagboghi2

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I’m officially convinced some people here will defend every decision this man makes. Like wow. C’mon people think for yourselves for a moment. I understand liking trump and his decisions but it doesn’t mean you have to like all of them and defend every one of them. This one being one of the dumbest. It’s clearly for votes.
This is rich coming from one of the biggest TDS posters on this board.
 

Whataborman

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Grocery stores sell alcohol though
That really depends on the state. For instance, in Maryland you can't buy anything alcoholic in grocery stores. In VA you can buy beer and wine in grocery stores but liquor is sold only in state-run stores. Pennsylvania has even stricter laws than that, I think.

It's been three months since this shit started and people just want to be able to go to church again without their governor threatening to have them arrested.
Webcasts are fine for some people but older folk don't always have access to the technology needed.

My church got around the rules for Easter service by holding it outside and ensuring that everyone stood 6 feet apart.
 
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Batiman

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Extending the Patriot act and giving Barr more surveillance power.

Bombing Syria

Allowing to much of his cabinet to be influenced by neocons

Took 3 seconds. Now are you going to continue denying you are a TDS shill?
You could check my history if you want. I agreed with Trump on many things. Even yesterday. Agreeing with him on this one is just stupid.
 
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Being frustrated over the fact that they can't commune is preferable to suffering coronavirus. This is based on the idea that church services are essential. I ask you, what is essential about it?
First off, it's not up to you or the government to say whether they are or not when it's a constitutional right.

But if you want me to make an argument... I think you vastly underestimate what churches do for people.


Just for instance.

As a youth leader, I dealt with this on a daily basis in kids and young adults who where dealing with all kinds of issues life had thrown at them. Church and the communion found within it's fellowship was even what saved me from the depths of my depression. And that was when there wasn't a pandemic.

Also, when my family was poor and eating out of dumpsters, the random churches we went to as we lived in our camper, fed us and clothed us. They would see us during services and they would bless us and offer us work if any of the members had something we could do for them.

When I left my abusive parents, it was the church and it's members that took my brother and I in. A family approached us during a service.

The church also taught me the value of community service. We would constantly be doing things for the city we where in. Cleaning up trash, restoring buildings, elderly care. Giving food and supplies to poor families in the neighborhood that we heard needed them. And so much more.

I firmly believe it's the only reason I was able to change my stars. All through my travels living homeless, we saw so very many like us. Imagine not being able to have those resources at our disposal?
 

Plague Doctor

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Yeah, this is one of the many circumstances that quite a few of us realize not "how good Trump is" (cause he isn't good) but just "how far the Democrats and the modern left have fallen".

Best case scenario, this is just a bizarre stance taken to counter trump for the sake of countering him. Even then, that's juvenile and sets a sad precedent.

We are talking about freedom of assembly here. I never believed we'd have that open for debate and coming from the left.

Seriously, I worried in my youth freedom of assembly was going to attacked by the right against protesters if it was going to happen. This entire last 4 years would have been unbelievable to my younger self.

A pandemic does not over ride personal liberties and allows leaders to enact martial and total law at their whim and answerings to no one.

Concessions for public health can definitely be made but must be made with personal liberties in mind. When it enters the grey zone, you default to personal liberties. Unless, ofcourse, you want a totalitarian state and roll the dice which way the political winds will blow and there isn't a pandemic as justification. Cause when the political winds blow in a direction against your political tribe, you ain't gonna like this shit much. And yeah, political parties do complete 180s overnight... we have seen it just three generations ago. Lastly, there has been many times in history people have been afraid and conceded their liberties to the state for security. Spoiler: It's always ends badly.
 
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Trey

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as much as liberals hate to admit it, churches provide much needed essential services and above all charity. they run shelters. they run soup kitchens. housing for the disabled. hospitals. etc. they do a
they pick up the slack that their "progressive" cousins don't really care about. you aren't seeing Apple or Marvel running thrift stores and soup kitchens. this is a big reason why they get tax exempt status.
No. You are seeing a lot of progressive organizations doing that. Many of them religious, or religious adjacent.

Gathering for worship is a different thing than gathering for food kitchens and shelter. Trump can bloviate on the topic all he wants, but it will come down to the respective governors' choice.
 

Texas Pride

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The founders weren't dealing with a virus like this. If they were, I really doubt they would encourage church gatherings. Let's not live in the land of ideals. That's easy. Let's live in reality. This shit is going to get people killed over something they can do from the safety of their own home.



Religion was more important than to society then it is now. I doubt they'd agree with you. This country has deep roots in religious freedom and not even a virus will destroy that.
 
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oagboghi2

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No. You are seeing a lot of progressive organizations doing that. Many of them religious, or religious adjacent.
😂😂 fuck outta here with that shit


Gathering for worship is a different thing than gathering for food kitchens and shelter. Trump can bloviate on the topic all he wants, but it will come down to the respective governors' choice.
Trump has the ability to supersede any governor in defense of the constitution.

maybe you should try reading your history
 
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Riven326

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First off, it's not up to you or the government to say whether they are or not when it's a constitutional right.

But if you want me to make an argument... I think you vastly underestimate what churches do for people.


Just for instance.

As a youth leader, I dealt with this on a daily basis in kids and young adults who where dealing with all kinds of issues life had thrown at them. Church and the communion found within it's fellowship was even what saved me from the depths of my depression. And that was when there wasn't a pandemic.

Also, when my family was poor and eating out of dumpsters, the random churches we went to as we lived in our camper, fed us and clothed us. They would see us during services and they would bless us and offer us work if any of the members had something we could do for them.

When I left my abusive parents, it was the church and it's members that took my brother and I in. A family approached us during a service.

The church also taught me the value of community service. We would constantly be doing things for the city we where in. Cleaning up trash, restoring buildings, elderly care. Giving food and supplies to poor families in the neighborhood that we heard needed them. And so much more.

I firmly believe it's the only reason I was able to change my stars. All through my travels living homeless, we saw so very many like us. Imagine not being able to have those resources at our disposal?
1. Never said otherwise.

2. I was onlu talking about church gatherings. Not what churches do for people.
 
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sobaka770

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Ah, the re-election optics... Trump will do anything for those evangelical votes down the line.

I don't have problem with churches but the places of worship were a cesspool of disease in Iranian covid spread and it is still irresponsible to open them across the whole country when most states do not have the disease numbers under control yet.
The only truth here is that Trump cares not for religious freedom, he just panders to his audience at this point or he would've done so at the very start.
 

Riven326

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Ah, the re-election optics... Trump will do anything for those evangelical votes down the line.

I don't have problem with churches but the places of worship were a cesspool of disease in Iranian covid spread and it is still irresponsible to open them across the whole country when most states do not have the disease numbers under control yet.
The only truth here is that Trump cares not for religious freedom, he just panders to his audience at this point or he would've done so at the very start.
Indeed. I think it's remarkable the number of otherwise intelligent people on this forum who legitimately believe Trump is religious.
 

Riven326

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One last thing I want to address here. I'm not an atheist and I'm not doing this because I have something against Christians. I went to a Christian high school and I have a whole lot of respect for them and what they do for my community.

This has everything to do with my belief that religious folk can worship God in a place other than a church for the time being given the current situation. I disagree with the government's endorsement of attending church gatherings, obviously. That doesn't mean I'm in favor of suspending people's rights.
 
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2. I was onlu talking about church gatherings. Not what churches do for people.
You don't understand. Most of the help we received as outsiders happened because we took part in the gatherings or because gatherings where happening. When I was a youth leader, it was only because we could gather that we could do the kind of impactful outreach in the community that helped out so many. Gatherings give people in need a place to go. Gatherings are where we inspire each other, just as we are inspired through Christ, to rise to even greater heights with our blessings toward others. Gatherings help immensely with depression. When you are in need, being around others who are loving, caring, helpful and genuinely want to lift you up and see you be the best of yourself is immensely beneficial.
 

Pagusas

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I’m not religious but I respect people’s religious faith and devotion to know the statement is true, faith and worship to some is just as essential as food or water. People need to make their own choice on what they are willing to risk, we’re past the point we can keep things shut down, time to let the individuals make their choices
 
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FireFly

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Yeah, this is one of the many circumstances that quite a few of us realize not "how good Trump is" (cause he isn't good) but just "how far the Democrats and the modern left have fallen".

Best case scenario, this is just a bizarre stance taken to counter trump for the sake of countering him. Even then, that's juvenile and sets a sad precedent.

We are talking about freedom of assembly here. I never believed we'd have that open for debate and coming from the left.

Seriously, I worried in my youth freedom of assembly was going to attacked by the right against protesters if it was going to happen. This entire last 4 years would have been unbelievable to my younger self.

A pandemic does not over ride personal liberties and allows leaders to enact martial and total law at their whim and answerings to no one.

Concessions for public health can definitely be made but must be made with personal liberties in mind. When it enters the grey zone, you default to personal liberties. Unless, ofcourse, you want a totalitarian state and roll the dice which way the political winds will blow and there isn't a pandemic as justification. Cause when the political winds blow in a direction against your political tribe, you ain't gonna like this shit much. And yeah, political parties do complete 180s overnight... we have seen it just three generations ago. Lastly, there has been many times in history people have been afraid and conceded their liberties to the state for security. Spoiler: It's always ends badly.
Arguments in favour of freedom of assembly, apply to the lockdown in general, not to religious freedoms specifically. Since meeting with others to discuss my political beliefs is no less a use of freedom of assembly than meeting with others to discuss my religious beliefs. So if restricting this freedom is all-things-considered wrong, then the lockdown itself was wrong. However Trump and all the political parties were/are backing the lockdown, so this argument doesn't provide a defence of his views.

You could make an argument that states shouldn't be able to arbitrarily discriminate in favour of economic freedoms over religious freedoms. However if a decision not to re-open churches is based on assessment that this would not be safe, then this isn't arbitrary, and is consistent with the original justification for the lockdown. This argument would work if it could shown that reopening churches was perfectly safe, yet states refused to do it, and in indeed were permitting large gatherings in general. But that requires an assessment in each case, not a blanket command to re-open. And notice that Trump isn't issuing a blanket order that political gatherings be allowed, so actually it seems that the discrimination goes the other way, in favour of religious over political freedom.

Note that the reason given for why Trump couldn't lock down the country, was that the executive branch didn't have this power, and as a large federal government it makes much more sense for individual states to make the relevant determinations, given that their situations will be different. This also formed the basis for the White House's "three phase" strategy, which left it up to individual states to decide when to execute each stage of the lockdown. If you believe that this is the right strategy, then you can't also believe it's perfectly fine to demand that states re-open churches irrespective of where they are in the lockdown or whether they can do so safely.
 

Teletraan1

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I personally don't support any religion but it is long past the time to start allowing people to make their own decisions. If you are at risk or afraid go hide away. If you dgaf go live your life and face whatever consequences. Most of these rules are to cover the ass of the people making them up.
 

iconmaster

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Frankly, these religious people are irrational.
You've already precluded all possibility of discussion on this issue, so engaging with you is pointless. Maybe consider that separation of church and state cuts both ways. The power of the church to command the state is very limited, but so is the reverse.

You don't have to go to church to worship God.
You do, if He commands it.

The founders weren't dealing with a virus like this. If they were, I really doubt they would encourage church gatherings.
I say they would, more than ever.
 

Riven326

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You've already precluded all possibility of discussion on this issue, so engaging with you is pointless. Maybe consider that separation of church and state cuts both ways. The power of the church to command the state is very limited, but so is the reverse.



You do, if He commands it.



I say they would, more than ever.
Pointless, and yet, here you are.