Trump raises tariffs on $200bn of Chinese goods (10 May 2019)

Alebrije

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Feb 25, 2010
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What is a “cheap market?” Is that an economic term? That’s a new one to me.

I didn’t put words in your mouth either. I just said if it were a free market, i.e. not whatever the heck you (subjectively) define as a “cheap market.”

The US did not create the monster that is China. Weak leaders and weak followers did. Thank god Trump is not a weak leader. Unfortunately we still have weak followers like you, but Trump will make you a winner anyway (if you are a US citizen, if you’re not I can see why you’re jealous of the US winning). And we do know how to stop it, by backing Trump against China. Trump is pressuring China 1000x (exaggeration) the pressure China has on the US. China will be facing immense capital flight and Trump is poking their economy thats built like a house of cards.


You see how balanced the US age demographic is distributed? The goddamn millennials are gonna carry the US economy for the near future. Businesses all around the world will want a piece of that market and will leave China to fulfill demand. Thank god for the millennials.

You clearly have little understanding of the current global economy and how we got to the point of China having a “cheap market.” I suggest you do more reading until you have something demonstrably substantive that contributes or counters your current discourse.

Cheap market : for production of goods. ( english is my second language so sorry for my grammar)

U.S. - China relation is more deep than just a trade war and not as easy to "win" for Trump as just saying bring factories back to the U.S. But I am happy if China -U.S. war gives my country ( Mexico) the chance to get some companies/factories here instead of China due to NAFTA ( is has a new name).

I get what Trump wants since our current president basically thinks the same : why bring corn from U.S. if we can produce it here? why buy Oil from U.S. if we have oil reserves? , why get wood from Canada if we can procuce here...etc. The idea is fantastic the problem is : are you going to produce those goods cheaper than buying them outside? Myabe Mexico has a better chance than U.S. due to lower labor cost and regulations but U.S. has lots of regulations and more expensive labor cost than China in order to compete with price, so I do not see big name companies like Foxconn moving to U.S. to produce phones in the short time...

Iam not jelaous if U.S. is fine México is fine. but I am not very optimistic about this "war" bringing jobs to the U.S.

regarding millenials they are everywhere not just U.S. see this interesting note :

 
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1.21Gigawatts

can't help talking about pedophiles
Nov 24, 2012
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Well you gotta have some pain. For Americans its either that or let China eat your lunch and pass you. Maybe some American's don't care and don't mind being in the rear view of China, but others don't want to see their spot at the top go away.

Its kinda like when Britain had to deal with the US starting to nip at its heels and taking away its position as world super power.

Either the choice is stand up to China but deal with some financial pain, or continue what has been going on since slick Willy and allow China to eat USA's lunch.
If the US wanted to stand a chance against China it would have needed to start to invest into its people decades ago.
Education, healthcare, infrastructure.
All the things China has been doing to maximize the potential of their population.
By now it is way too late for the US to stand up against China.
And how would that work anyway? The US is controlled by corporate interests and they can just as well invest in China, they do not depend on the US being world leader in any way shape or form, so they have no interest in working towards retaining that status. They milk the US dry and move on in best capitalist fashion.


I don't know who I would rather have as "world leader".

China is rational, predictable and aware of its responsibility in the world, but also extremely authoritarian and with no regard for individuality, freedom and human lives. Heck, they are currently in the middle of a genocide.

The US under Trump is irrational, anti-intellectual, completely in denial over basic facts, ideologically far right and nationalist, but still kinda held back by a political apparatus that prevents Trump from ruling in the authoritarian fashion he would like. But yeah, these fail-saves never lasted long.


Its kinda like in the 1930s where you could chose between Communists and Nazis, but this time nobody will come to save the day.
 

btgorman

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Jul 26, 2009
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Cheap market : for production of goods. ( english is my second language so sorry for my grammar)

U.S. - China relation is more deep than just a trade war and not as easy to "win" for Trump as just saying bring factories back to the U.S. But I am happy if China -U.S. war gives my country ( Mexico) the chance to get some companies/factories here instead of China due to NAFTA ( is has a new name).

I get what Trump wants since our current president basically thinks the same : why bring corn from U.S. if we can produce it here? why buy Oil from U.S. if we have oil reserves? , why get wood from Canada if we can procuce here...etc. The idea is fantastic the problem is : are you going to produce those goods cheaper than buying them outside? Myabe Mexico has a better chance than U.S. due to lower labor cost and regulations but U.S. has lots of regulations and more expensive labor cost than China in order to compete with price, so I do not see big name companies like Foxconn moving to U.S. to produce phones in the short time...

Iam not jelaous if U.S. is fine México is fine. but I am not very optimistic about this "war" bringing jobs to the U.S.

regarding millenials they are everywhere not just U.S. see this interesting note :

You’ve made no clear refutations to anything that I’ve said. I suppose our conversation is completed. You can continue to believe what you want to believe without any basis in evidence.

If the US wanted to stand a chance against China it would have needed to start to invest into its people decades ago.
Education, healthcare, infrastructure.
All the things China has been doing to maximize the potential of their population.
By now it is way too late for the US to stand up against China.
And how would that work anyway? The US is controlled by corporate interests and they can just as well invest in China, they do not depend on the US being world leader in any way shape or form, so they have no interest in working towards retaining that status. They milk the US dry and move on in best capitalist fashion.


I don't know who I would rather have as "world leader".

China is rational, predictable and aware of its responsibility in the world, but also extremely authoritarian and with no regard for individuality, freedom and human lives. Heck, they are currently in the middle of a genocide.

The US under Trump is irrational, anti-intellectual, completely in denial over basic facts, ideologically far right and nationalist, but still kinda held back by a political apparatus that prevents Trump from ruling in the authoritarian fashion he would like. But yeah, these fail-saves never lasted long.


Its kinda like in the 1930s where you could chose between Communists and Nazis, but this time nobody will come to save the day.
 
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SoulChamber

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Sep 19, 2018
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I hope that those of you who are cheering for this are prepared to spend tons of more money on food, clothing & electronics, including more than $500 on those PS5's & Xbox 4's.
 
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rorepmE

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Jan 20, 2019
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I hope that those of you who are cheering for this are prepared to spend tons of more money on food, clothing & electronics, including more than $500 on those PS5's & Xbox 4's.
Whatever it take to beat the Chicoms. Craftsman use to be made in the USA. Now it's all China junk. Even though all my craftsman tools were USA made I replaced 85% of my tools with Snap-on which is 3x more expensive.

BUY AMERICAN
 
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btgorman

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I hope that those of you who are cheering for this are prepared to spend tons of more money on food, clothing & electronics, including more than $500 on those PS5's & Xbox 4's.
Yes! I really do worry about paying $50 more for the next PlayStation than I worry about the future of the country that my children will inherit. I just love kicking the can down the road so I can play my vidya games. El oh el.

You’re a coward.
 
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ssolitare

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Yes! I really do worry about paying $50 more for the next PlayStation than I worry about the future of the country that my children will inherit. I just love kicking the can down the road so I can play my vidya games. El oh el.

You’re a coward.
Global warming.
 

Rentahamster

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To any conservatives who expressed the idea that a marginal increase in the cost of consumer goods is worth it: Do you also agree that it's worth it regarding federal minimum wage increases? After all, the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation at all since it was enacted. If it did, it'd be something like $20 bucks an hour by now.
 

btgorman

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Texas.
are we just saying random shit now?

To any conservatives who expressed the idea that a marginal increase in the cost of consumer goods is worth it: Do you also agree that it's worth it regarding federal minimum wage increases? After all, the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation at all since it was enacted. If it did, it'd be something like $20 bucks an hour by now.
What does minimum wage have to do with anything here?

My dear liberals, please put together some rationale thoughts that are at least somewhat defensible.
 
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Rentahamster

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What does minimum wage have to do with anything here?

My dear liberals, please put together some rationale thoughts that are at least somewhat defensible.
It uses the same arguments of supporting domestic workers being sufficient justification for a marginal rise in the cost of consumer goods. Same reason a lot of conservatives are agreeing with the tariffs.

Dear btgorman, please read at a level higher than kindergarten.
 

btgorman

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It uses the same arguments of supporting domestic workers being sufficient justification for a marginal rise in the cost of consumer goods. Same reason a lot of conservatives are agreeing with the tariffs.

Dear btgorman, please read at a level higher than kindergarten.
There are many reasons why the China tariffs are a good thing. One of the benefits is that domestic workers will reap some economic benefits in the "long run."

The primary reason, however, is via foreign policy and not domestic policy (e.g., minimum wage) point of view. Geopolitics is a totally different thing. Reviewing and renegotiating US-China trade policies is to make a FAIRER global market than currently exists. I've already gone over how China props up their businesses etc. which results in an asymmetric global market.

Also, the conservative view is that minimum wage HURTS workers not HELPS workers.

So... NO IT IS NOT THE SAME ARGUMENT FOR MINIMUM WAGE.
[1] The minimum wage is not directly comparable to foreign policies for allies and competitors that are nation states and not individuals.
[2] There is no consensus that higher minimum wages helps workers. Probably most conservatives believe that minimum wage actually hurts workers.

What the heck are you smoking bud? Your original post was retarded and provided no context for the argument you were making.
 
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Rentahamster

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NO IT IS NOT THE SAME ARGUMENT FOR MINIMUM WAGE.
There are several conservative arguments regarding the minimum wage. One is the impact on jobs via supply and demand, in the sense that raising the cost of labor will lead to less demand for labor. Also the hastening of automation.

Another argument is that the price of goods and services will increase because the cost of higher labor will be passed onto consumers.

I'm taking about the latter, not the former, so address the relevant topic please.

Also, the conservative view is that minimum wage HURTS workers not HELPS workers.
The point being that in regards to these tariffs, some conservatives are saying: "The rise in prices of domestic goods and services is worth it because it'll protect American workers"

Some liberals make the same point regarding minimum wage increases by saying "The rise in prices of domestic goods and services is worth it because it'll protect American workers".

If your position is that an increase in the minimum wage depresses the demand for workers in a larger negative way than it does to support workers overall, then you could have simply said so in a polite manner without whining and resorting to silly insults.
 

btgorman

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The point being that in regards to these tariffs, some conservatives are saying: "The rise in prices of domestic goods and services is worth it because it'll protect American workers"

Some liberals make the same point regarding minimum wage increases by saying
"The rise in prices of domestic goods and services is worth it because it'll protect American workers.”
[1] is wrong because it’s incomplete.
[2] is opinion and, thus, useless for making any further assertions

[1] is completed by including business into the argument. (China tariffs implies better for US business implies better for US workers)

Therefore, not applicable as an argument for increased minimum wage because it does not follow that increased minimum wage is better for US business.
 
Nov 23, 2010
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China is actually the Fascist state in this equation. Which is why the bipolar US stands absolutely no chance long term. You've already lost. Start learning Mandarin.
I don't think Americans will need to learn Mandarin as China becomes even more of a success story. It's just America can't throw it's weight around like it used to because might makes right. Too late for that.

At this point, China can only stop themselves. They've copied others and they've done a great job insulating themselves from foreign competition. Very smart.

Now after decades of hard work China can put themselves in the driver's seat if they don't mess it all up.
 
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SoulChamber

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Sep 19, 2018
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Yes! I really do worry about paying $50 more for the next PlayStation than I worry about the future of the country that my children will inherit. I just love kicking the can down the road so I can play my vidya games. El oh el.

You’re a coward.
You didn't even read my post carefully. I been also included food & clothing. I was using electronics as an example of what's going to be included in the price increases.

Next time, think before you come off sounding like a fool before hitting that "post reply" button.
 
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Nobody_Important

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But yet some of those farmers still continue to make excuses for Trump, & still defend his ass. Just like with some people on this board.

Pitiful.
Not all of them


“Across the midwest, farm incomes are down and bankruptcies are up,” said reporter Martin Savidge. “It’s not just tariffs, across the midwest and southeast, farmers are also reeling from disasters. Floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, even fires. It’s been raining so much in Iowa farmers are nearly a month late getting into their fields, and every day they delay costs them more money.” He interviewed farmers who said that Trump had “better hurry up and do something” in his negotiations with China and that they have regrets about having voted for Trump in 2016. One of those farmers, Iowan Larry Angler, said his family stands to lose up to $150,000 this year.

“Did you vote for Trump?” asked Savidge.

“I did,” said Angler. “I’ll never vote for him again.”
 

SpartanN92

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Sep 7, 2012
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To any conservatives who expressed the idea that a marginal increase in the cost of consumer goods is worth it: Do you also agree that it's worth it regarding federal minimum wage increases? After all, the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation at all since it was enacted. If it did, it'd be something like $20 bucks an hour by now.
We should abolish the minimum wage entirely and let the market decide the value of labor.
 

Cucked SoyBoy

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Dec 18, 2018
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We should abolish the minimum wage entirely and let the market decide the value of labor.

Sure, as long as American workers are only competing against Americans. With the global economy, if an American worker wants to (for example) make clothes, she has to "compete" on wages with Malaysian slave girls who sleep chained to their sewing machines.

Plus a minimum wage for all legal workers does not account for the market distortion that comes from millions of illegal workers willing to work for less.

Even legal immigrants distort the market, by having too many workers chasing too few jobs which drives wages down.

Basically end immigration and incentivize companies to bring back operations to the US via tariffs. Until then it's not really a free market.
 

Gandara

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Here a perspective of someone who has been living in China for around 10 years and the situation with the tariffs. He explains why it's so hard to complete with China and some of the issues he had with selling items out of China.

 
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MrTickles

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Feb 22, 2018
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China is already exporting its industry to Africa rapidly (the world next growth engine and industrial center) and building new infrastructure Asia-wide to facilitate Afro-Eurasian trade. So if you're looking for alternatives, China has you beat to the punch. The Americas could essentially be ignored as 90% of the global population, including the fastest urbanizing regions, will reside and do business elsewhere.

This trade war is too little too late for the US. Already lost Europe. Losing East Asia. China can't be contained now.
 

Kenpachii

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Mar 23, 2018
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Here a perspective of someone who has been living in China for around 10 years and the situation with the tariffs. He explains why it's so hard to complete with China and some of the issues he had with selling items out of China.

That's actually a really well done explanation.